Kenny is the classic example of 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions.' Very few people try to do the wrong thing. The problem is that trying to do the right thing doesn't mean you're doing the right thing nor does it give you a free pass from the consequences.
I feel sympathy for Kenny but his grief doesn't justify his actions. His grief doesn't give him a free pass.
Think about it this way - you watch four armed gunmen take your family into your house - three of them are aiming guns at your family and one is looking out the window for cops. Do you shoot the person at the window? If your answer is anything other than 'no' you need to reexamine your thought process on the matter.
That wasn't the situation at all though, so making that comparison doesn't make any sense. You're putting total emotional attachment into the picture, which changes everything. Once Clem/Sarita were put in danger, Kenny decided his plan was no longer worth it, considering they would die if he continued, and they were the only people he really cared about anyway.
As I said in the other thread, Kenny had no idea what would happen in the case of surrendering. Carver potentially could have just killed them all once he had everyone rounded up. So Kenny taking his chances at shooting makes complete sense, given that he had no idea that Carver was just going to let everyone live.
Lets look at this hypothetically. Lets say Kenny decided to do nothing at all in that situation, and Carver just assumed that there was no one left to round up. Carver then guns everyone down and leaves with Rebecca. Now, would you say Kenny made the right decision by not getting involved?
You can have your own preferences for how you would personally take your chances in that situation, but acting like Kenny did something stupid in that situation isn't fair at all.
I read it and it's unconvincing. You're under the false impression that it was simple hindsight.
Think about it this way - you watch four… more armed gunmen take your family into your house - three of them are aiming guns at your family and one is looking out the window for cops. Do you shoot the person at the window? If your answer is anything other than 'no' you need to reexamine your thought process on the matter.
I didn't know what would happen if Clementine surrendered - but I surrendered. People might be killed even if you surrender but it's obvious that people will die if you don't.
Make this as simple as possible: If he doesn't he might kill people and he might not. You open fire - he will absolutely start killing people. Which is the better option? Think it through, it takes less than 5 seconds to figure out that might die is always better than will die. Kenny didn't even take the time to think it through.
Clem/Sarita were already in danger, he amplified the danger by shooting.
Have you ever read anything about hostage negotiations or watched a hostage situation on the news? Shooting at hostage takers is never the first option because it gets people killed.
Think about it this way - you watch four armed gunmen take your family into your house - three of them are aiming guns at your family and on… moree is looking out the window for cops. Do you shoot the person at the window? If your answer is anything other than 'no' you need to reexamine your thought process on the matter.
That wasn't the situation at all though, so making that comparison doesn't make any sense. You're putting total emotional attachment into the picture, which changes everything. Once Clem/Sarita were put in danger, Kenny decided his plan was no longer worth it, considering they would die if he continued, and they were the only people he really cared about anyway.
As I said in the other thread, Kenny had no idea what would happen in the case of surrendering. Carver potentially could have just killed them all once he had everyone rounded up. So Kenny taking his chances at shooting makes complete sense, given that he had no… [view original content]
Think about it this way - you watch four armed gunmen take your family into your house - three of them are aiming guns at your family and on… moree is looking out the window for cops. Do you shoot the person at the window? If your answer is anything other than 'no' you need to reexamine your thought process on the matter.
That wasn't the situation at all though, so making that comparison doesn't make any sense. You're putting total emotional attachment into the picture, which changes everything. Once Clem/Sarita were put in danger, Kenny decided his plan was no longer worth it, considering they would die if he continued, and they were the only people he really cared about anyway.
As I said in the other thread, Kenny had no idea what would happen in the case of surrendering. Carver potentially could have just killed them all once he had everyone rounded up. So Kenny taking his chances at shooting makes complete sense, given that he had no… [view original content]
Make this as simple as possible: If he doesn't he might kill people and he might not. You open fire - he will absolutely start killing people. Which is the better option? Think it through, it takes less than 5 seconds to figure out that might die is always better than will die. Kenny didn't even take the time to think it through.
That is such an illogical way to look at the situation. Kenny shouldn't just bank on the fact that Carver might not decide to kill everyone. That's kind of ridiculous given the stakes. What if Kenny had followed your logic, surrendered, and then everyone was gunned down? Still a good idea? You're simply not taking into account that there are risks no matter what Kenny does in that situation. One could argue that giving up is logically the greater risk, considering everyone is then left 100% defenseless and at the mercy of Carver. He would no longer need to keep anyone alive in that particular situation, considering he had only been using them as bait to draw everyone out (even before Kenny started shooting).
You're trying to apply a matter of likelihood to the outcome of each potential decision and it just doesn't make any sort of sense considering Kenny had no possible way of knowing what was more likely to happen. The only reason why you know otherwise is because of having played through the game and finding out what Carver's full intentions were.
Clem/Sarita were already in danger, he amplified the danger by shooting.
Again, there isn't actually a way to know this. Carver could have just killed them regardless of Kenny doing anything at all. There is no way for Kenny to know. There is no way to argue danger levels without hindsight.
Have you ever read anything about hostage negotiations or watched a hostage situation on the news? Shooting at hostage takers is never the first option because it gets people killed.
Not comparable at all. Carver was freaking torturing someone in the building and demanding that everyone come out of hiding/ surrender. There were no negotiations to be had.
Make this as simple as possible: If he doesn't he might kill people and he might not. You open fire - he will absolutely start killing peopl… moree. Which is the better option? Think it through, it takes less than 5 seconds to figure out that might die is always better than will die. Kenny didn't even take the time to think it through.
Clem/Sarita were already in danger, he amplified the danger by shooting.
Have you ever read anything about hostage negotiations or watched a hostage situation on the news? Shooting at hostage takers is never the first option because it gets people killed.
Nobody ever has any possible way of knowing what's going to happen. So you make the choice that has the best odds to work. Shooting is not the best choice unless you have the ability to take out the hostage takers - Kenny overestimated his abilities and people died. It's reckless.
What does Kenny know?
There are at least four people - some of them have fully automatic weapons.
They have hostages including Sarita and Clem.
They will kill people if he starts shooting.
If you have even the most rudimentary capacity for basic human thought you know what the rational decision is.
It's not comparable? Really? A hostage situation is not comparable to a hostage situation? Got ya. I'm guessing you don't compare apples to apples, then.
Make this as simple as possible: If he doesn't he might kill people and he might not. You open fire - he will absolutely start killing peopl… moree. Which is the better option? Think it through, it takes less than 5 seconds to figure out that might die is always better than will die. Kenny didn't even take the time to think it through.
That is such an illogical way to look at the situation. Kenny shouldn't just bank on the fact that Carver might not decide to kill everyone. That's kind of ridiculous given the stakes. What if Kenny had followed your logic, surrendered, and then everyone was gunned down? Still a good idea? You're simply not taking into account that there are risks no matter what Kenny does in that situation. One could argue that giving up is logically the greater risk, considering everyone is then left 100% defenseless and at the mercy of Carver. He would no longer need to keep anyone alive in that particular situation, consi… [view original content]
He surrenders when Carver puts his gun to Clementine's head. Why? Because even though he doesn't know what will happen if he surrenders he knows what will happen if he doesn't. That is the rational choice he should have made from the start.
Make this as simple as possible: If he doesn't he might kill people and he might not. You open fire - he will absolutely start killing peopl… moree. Which is the better option? Think it through, it takes less than 5 seconds to figure out that might die is always better than will die. Kenny didn't even take the time to think it through.
That is such an illogical way to look at the situation. Kenny shouldn't just bank on the fact that Carver might not decide to kill everyone. That's kind of ridiculous given the stakes. What if Kenny had followed your logic, surrendered, and then everyone was gunned down? Still a good idea? You're simply not taking into account that there are risks no matter what Kenny does in that situation. One could argue that giving up is logically the greater risk, considering everyone is then left 100% defenseless and at the mercy of Carver. He would no longer need to keep anyone alive in that particular situation, consi… [view original content]
Nobody ever has any possible way of knowing what's going to happen.
...okay? So why are you trying to make an argument that one outcome is more likely than the other?
If you're not trying to make that argument, then there is zero sense in having a problem with which side of the equation that Kenny appealed to.
What does Kenny know? There are at least four people - some of them have fully automatic weapons. They have hostages including Sarita and Clem. They will kill people if he starts shooting.
Yes, I understand what the risks of the situation are. I'm not ignoring them. You however, are completely ignoring the fact that Carver could have just killed everyone. Again, you're trying to apply a matter of likelihood to the outcome of each potential decision when you don't actually have a way of doing that without hindsight. Without hindsight, you don't know that Carver was more likely to leave everyone alone if Kenny hadn't started shooting. People could have died either way. The fact that Kenny's shooting triggered a response is completely irrelevant, given that the only other option was giving up. In the instance that he gave up, everyone could have been killed.
And please don't respond by saying: "omggg but Carver would for sure kill someone if Kenny shot at one of his guys, compared to him maybe not deciding to slaughter everybody if Kenny had simply given up and left everyone to his mercy." Saying that is completely ignoring the stakes and circumstances of the situation. And again, you can't apply likelihood to either situation without hindsight. We only know that Kenny shooting at Carver's men triggered executing hostages because he actually did it. Without hindsight, its impossible to know what Carver was going to do in the case of everyone surrendering to him.
If you have even the most rudimentary capacity for basic human thought you know what the rational decision is.
Insults+ a completely black-white way of thinking... way to push your argument.
It's not comparable? Really? A hostage situation is not comparable to a hostage situation? Got ya. I'm guessing you don't compare apples to apples, then.
You're not even thinking. You're ignoring all context of the situations. It isn't even close to an apples to apples comparison. In a typical hostage setting in everyday life, there are multiple officers on hand to deal with the situation. It typically ends with the criminal giving up, because he realizes there isn't a better alternative. Kenny was just one man. There was no way Carver was going to give up or negotiate. That seriously should go without saying.
Nobody ever has any possible way of knowing what's going to happen. So you make the choice that has the best odds to work. Shooting is not t… morehe best choice unless you have the ability to take out the hostage takers - Kenny overestimated his abilities and people died. It's reckless.
What does Kenny know?
* There are at least four people - some of them have fully automatic weapons.
* They have hostages including Sarita and Clem.
* They will kill people if he starts shooting.
If you have even the most rudimentary capacity for basic human thought you know what the rational decision is.
It's not comparable? Really? A hostage situation is not comparable to a hostage situation? Got ya. I'm guessing you don't compare apples to apples, then.
I was pointing out that in the best of situations with multiple armed people to deal with the hostage takers that shooting is still a stupid decision. One man, alone - it's retarded.
He surrenders when Carver puts his gun to Clementine's head. Why? Because even though he doesn't know what will happen if he surrenders he knows what will happen if he doesn't. That is the rational choice he should have made from the start.
Nobody ever has any possible way of knowing what's going to happen.
...okay? So why are you trying to make an argument that one outc… moreome is more likely than the other?
If you're not trying to make that argument, then there is zero sense in having a problem with which side of the equation that Kenny appealed to.
What does Kenny know? There are at least four people - some of them have fully automatic weapons. They have hostages including Sarita and Clem. They will kill people if he starts shooting.
Yes, I understand what the risks of the situation are. I'm not ignoring them. You however, are completely ignoring the fact that Carver could have just killed everyone. Again, you're trying to apply a matter of likelihood to the outcome of each potential decision when you don't actually have a way of doing that without hindsight. Without hindsight, you don't know that Carver was more likely to leave everyone alone if Kenny had… [view original content]
I was pointing out that in the best of situations with multiple armed people to deal with the hostage takers that shooting is still a stupid decision. One man, alone - it's retarded.
It's still not comparable at all, because you're still ignoring the context of the situations. Kenny only had two alternatives, those being to engage Carver or give up. There was no negotiating to be had, and there definitely was no way to coerce Carver through numbers/ threat level. Carver was not going to negotiate or give up to one single guy. Seriously, you can't honestly tell me the situations are even close to being fairly comparable.
He surrenders when Carver puts his gun to Clementine's head. Why? Because even though he doesn't know what will happen if he surrenders he knows what will happen if he doesn't. That is the rational choice he should have made from the start.
Because at that point there is no sense in continuing considering it would defeat the purpose of what he was fighting for in the first place. It only made sense to give up at that point. His hand was forced. Prior to that though? No.
Not sure why you decided to ignore basically all of the actual points I made in my previous post.
I was pointing out that in the best of situations with multiple armed people to deal with the hostage takers that shooting is still a stupid… more decision. One man, alone - it's retarded.
He surrenders when Carver puts his gun to Clementine's head. Why? Because even though he doesn't know what will happen if he surrenders he knows what will happen if he doesn't. That is the rational choice he should have made from the start.
He was already beaten. Anybody with half a brain knew that. It already made sense to give up. The fight was over once they started lining people up. It's not that hard to figure out.
I'm through arguing with two-bit Kenny apologists. For people who claim that you don't think Kenny was perfect you certainly spend a lot of time trying to justify his fuck-ups.
I was pointing out that in the best of situations with multiple armed people to deal with the hostage takers that shooting is still a stupid… more decision. One man, alone - it's retarded.
It's still not comparable at all, because you're still ignoring the context of the situations. Kenny only had two alternatives, those being to engage Carver or give up. There was no negotiating to be had, and there definitely was no way to coerce Carver through numbers/ threat level. Carver was not going to negotiate or give up to one single guy. Seriously, you can't honestly tell me the situations are even close to being fairly comparable.
He surrenders when Carver puts his gun to Clementine's head. Why? Because even though he doesn't know what will happen if he surrenders he knows what will happen if he doesn't. That is the rational choice he should have made from the start.
Because at that point there is no sense in continuing considering… [view original content]
He was already beaten. Anybody with half a brain knew that. It already made sense to give up. The fight was over once they started lining people up. It's not that hard to figure out.
So Kenny should give up and potentially leave everyone for dead just because the odds were against him? Right.. that's a great line of thinking. (Not)
He actually comes really close to killing Carver if you let him take a shot at him.
I'm through arguing with two-bit Kenny apologists. For people who claim that you don't think Kenny was perfect you certainly spend a lot of time trying to justify his fuck-ups.
Simply arguing for common sense. I wish you would take me up on my points instead of just name calling and checking out of the conversation.
He was already beaten. Anybody with half a brain knew that. It already made sense to give up. The fight was over once they started lining pe… moreople up. It's not that hard to figure out.
I'm through arguing with two-bit Kenny apologists. For people who claim that you don't think Kenny was perfect you certainly spend a lot of time trying to justify his fuck-ups.
i was also with Kenny da whole way through ever since we met him again at da lodge all da way through epi. 5. i never rly trusted jane from da get go anyways, cuz of da fact dat she ditches ppls like her sister, then she ditched da baby just to piss off Kenny. I just never rly liked her character at all, so i also watched Kenny kill Jane, and i went along with him to Willington. (but also cuz, i don't like da fact dat she saw Beca's baby as a liability and ask'n such a stupid question of "what are you go'n to do with it?" and even call'n da baby an "it" come on now, dats just rude >:[ ) Heck i also agreed with him leave'n da next morning instead of take'n Luke's idea of wait'n a few days and go'n..lol cuz if i went along with Luke's idea of wait'n a few days, i guess Kenny would complain about how we should've left early in da morning. ^^b But in a way, i'm glad dat i agreed with some of Kenny's ideas most of da way through, and i had clem say'n dat "we are going together and thats that" well i know Kenny sometimes has a temper tantrum and all, but i also know dat he's just look'n out for whats best for Clem and AJ. So dats why i didn't want to go to "Willington" by myself with da baby, i just simply said dat i'm go'n with Kenny. ^_^ Plus, there's just too many feels for me personally if i chose da option of parting with Kenny, while we go to Willington. So in some ways, i guess i kinda agree with da OP here lol
Nobody takes zykelator seriously. They have some good points, but most of the time present said points in such a rude and abrasive way, that even fellow Jane fans don't want to be associated with them.
The Kenny Endings are a 5-Star Entree hidden in a Styrofoam container.
The Non-Kenny Endings are a crap-sandwich on a silver platter hidd… moreen under a dome cover.
It's one thing for someone to be tricked into getting the crap-sandwich by not using all of their senses (some people could smell what was coming) but the saddest thing is watching them try to justify their choice while they choke it down. They're not even stuck with it, they could get the delicious and nutritious ending anytime they want...but alas their stubborn pride will force them to eat shit for eternity.
Nobody takes zykelator seriously. They have some good points, but most of the time present said points in such a rude and abrasive way, that even fellow Jane fans don't want to be associated with them.
Because almost every debate you have turns into an argument, and you can't seem to refrain from insulting others in your posts while still proving your point. I believe you have the ability to debate civilly, but you choose to conduct yourself in an antagonistic manner. There are even times where you act in the way a troll would.
You are "they", because I don't know if you're a boy or a girl.
Because almost every debate you have turns into an argument, and you can't seem to refrain from insulting others in your posts while still p… moreroving your point. I believe you have the ability to debate civilly, but you choose to conduct yourself in an antagonistic manner. There are even times where you act in the way a troll would.
You are "they", because I don't know if you're a boy or a girl.
Because everytime i prove my point, people ignore it and call it a opinion. When for example, if safety of Clementine i priority, there is a right answer to that, like it or not. When you look at all the facts the game provides us, there is right answer to that question. Some people just fail to see it, or their priority isnt Clementines safety and survival (which i would assume is the priority, considering the game is about Clementine).
Because almost every debate you have turns into an argument, and you can't seem to refrain from insulting others in your posts while still p… moreroving your point. I believe you have the ability to debate civilly, but you choose to conduct yourself in an antagonistic manner. There are even times where you act in the way a troll would.
You are "they", because I don't know if you're a boy or a girl.
FINALLY, someone smart for a change. how could someone pick jane a selfish woman who you've known for two days,over a man whos done nothing but protect you and have known for TWO YEARS.any way got a little carried away, kenny is the way to go people
Selfish girl who saves you from under water, risking her own life and then starts getting fire started so you dont freeze. Meanwhile, your protector Kenny is busy beating helpless kid and ignores you completely. Yeah, i see your point.
FINALLY, someone smart for a change. how could someone pick jane a selfish woman who you've known for two days,over a man whos done nothing but protect you and have known for TWO YEARS.any way got a little carried away, kenny is the way to go people
ok ill give you that one, but since were keeping score: Jane 2(the ice incident, and survival tips)
kenny: 5(going out in season 1 to get food, suplies,etc) 3(helping to get clem back) 2(risked his life to save ben or christa,depending on your decisions) 10( protected clem every time he could) 10(risked his own safety for clem and aj)
Selfish girl who saves you from under water, risking her own life and then starts getting fire started so you dont freeze. Meanwhile, your protector Kenny is busy beating helpless kid and ignores you completely. Yeah, i see your point.
We all have different opinions on who Clem is safest with, we can engage in debate to attempt to convince people who disagree with us to concede to our viewpoint, the goal is to make it near impossible to refute your position's claims, but you can't expect every person to agree with you. The minute someone goes "I'm right and you're wrong, there is only one right answer, and it is mine", people check out immediately. You do just this, so they aren't going to take you seriously. Nor does it help when you try to justify insulting people because you get frustrated when they don't agree with you, or they refute your point.
Because everytime i prove my point, people ignore it and call it a opinion. When for example, if safety of Clementine i priority, there is a… more right answer to that, like it or not. When you look at all the facts the game provides us, there is right answer to that question. Some people just fail to see it, or their priority isnt Clementines safety and survival (which i would assume is the priority, considering the game is about Clementine).
Guys, guys! I've just realised something! Kenny is right about everything after all! And his wisdom and experiences have taught us all so mu… morech!:
* Cancer patients are backstabbing traitors! Don't trust anyone with any kind of illness!
* Finding a boat to the sea without supplies is a brilliant plan that will never backfire in absolutely no way whatsoever!
* Teenager boys are the devil who will get your family killed!
* Black people are 'urbans' who can pick locks no matter what they say!
* Calling Russians 'Eurotrash' and 'Russkies' are acceptable!
* We don't speak English, we speak American! How on Earth did we get that wrong the whole time?
* If people don't agree with your plans, it's okay to abandon them when they need your help in life-or-death scenarios, they're not your friends if they dare to have an opinion of their own!
* Thinking is overrated, lets go with our emotions and beat our way through!
* Eye infection? Pfeh! D… [view original content]
Nobody takes zykelator seriously. They have some good points, but most of the time present said points in such a rude and abrasive way, that even fellow Jane fans don't want to be associated with them.
i will agree with that, but you have to remember that there are assholes on both sides, i dont want to be associated with Lemoncakes, just because im a Kenny fan too
Nobody takes zykelator seriously. They have some good points, but most of the time present said points in such a rude and abrasive way, that even fellow Jane fans don't want to be associated with them.
First of all, Kenny is on 2 seasons and he has ridiculous screen time compared to Jane.
1. Jane saved the group from Troy outside howe's
2. Taught everyone how to pass through herds (clementine knew this but she didnt mention/remember it)
2. She made sure Clementine and Rebecca got out of the herd safely
3. She saved Luke from the trailer
4. ice incident and later getting the fire started.
On 2nd season, Kenny put Clementine or other people more in danger than was being helpful.
Caused Walter to die and was ready to let Alvin die
wanted to rambo his way out of the truck and possibly get himself & someone else killed
Forced Clementine to take the walkie talkie, putting her at huge risk
Wasted time beating Carvers dead corpse, costing the group time. (it was a fucking escape plan... You dont just stop to bash someones face in)
Wants Rebecca to move after just one day of recovery (she dies anyway, but it was stupid anyway)
Treats Arvo like shit for no good reason and acts like dictator, causing Mike (Bonnie) to betray to group and Clem gets shot during their escape
Plan to find Wellington. He wants to risks everyones lifes based on a story. It doest matter that it actually existed, because you dont have any factual evidence of its existence when you decide to look for it.
Only difference i see between season 1 and season 2 Kenny is that he got more violent and more unstable. Which is the main reason i shot him. I know he meant good with many things he did, put he put Clementine at risk too many times and was blinded by his anger many times.
ok ill give you that one, but since were keeping score: Jane 2(the ice incident, and survival tips)
kenny: 5(going out in season 1 to get f… moreood, suplies,etc) 3(helping to get clem back) 2(risked his life to save ben or christa,depending on your decisions) 10( protected clem every time he could) 10(risked his own safety for clem and aj)
you do the math
Every opinion isnt equally good. If someone said its safest to go with Arvo, could you take that opinion seriously?
I try to give good points and make others understand why it is the safest way, but they just ignore/discredit everything.
Many people dont even understand what rationality means. If the safety & survival of Clementine is your priority, doing everything to ensure this is the most rational thing to do. Now, either people think its safe to be around mentally unstable violent man, which sounds completely delusional, or they just dont care about Clementines safety and survival.
If survival of Kenny and your friendship is the priority, letting Kenny murder Jane is the most rational thing to do.
We all have different opinions on who Clem is safest with, we can engage in debate to attempt to convince people who disagree with us to con… morecede to our viewpoint, the goal is to make it near impossible to refute your position's claims, but you can't expect every person to agree with you. The minute someone goes "I'm right and you're wrong, there is only one right answer, and it is mine", people check out immediately. You do just this, so they aren't going to take you seriously. Nor does it help when you try to justify insulting people because you get frustrated when they don't agree with you, or they refute your point.
You sure are making a lot of assumptions about Wellington. We have no clue what's really going on in there. And if there's going to be a season 3 with Clementine as the protag, then clearly the place can't be all sunshine and roses and perfection.
Plus, Kenny was taking a shot in the dark and got lucky as hell that he was right. They put that baby in a lot of danger to chase after ghosts. If they had been wrong, AJ would have been doomed. But Kenny didn't seem to care about that, because he was convinced it was out there so that was that. Nevermind that going back to Howe's to find formula first was probably a good idea. They could have gone back to find supplies and then gone to Wellington but noooo.
Caused Walter to die and was ready to let Alvin die
Can't blame him for this. There is no way he could have known Carver's intentions. Carver could have just killed everyone after Kenny surrendered. Kenny more than had reason enough to handle the situation the way that he did.
wanted to rambo his way out of the truck and possibly get himself & someone else killed
I personally don't side with him on his decision making here either, but people fail to look at his side of the argument for whatever reason. In his mind, the truck was the perfect opportunity for escape, compared to actually getting locked away somewhere. And to be fair, his plan actually had a good chance of working if everyone had listened to him. Troy, Tavia, and Bonnie were standing right outside the back of the truck with their guns lowered. They could have been overpowered.
Wasted time beating Carvers dead corpse, costing the group time. (it was a fucking escape plan... You dont just stop to bash someones face in)
The actual beating only took like an extra 20 seconds. I think we can excuse Kenny for that considering he was the one who actually did something in the first place. How long would everyone have argued about what to do with Carver? Its just nitpicky to criticize Kenny for this.
Wants Rebecca to move after just one day of recovery (she dies anyway, but it was stupid anyway)
Fair enough, maybe. There really weren't any great alternatives though.
Treats Arvo like shit for no good reason
Yeah, It's not like Arvo had just brought his gang of Russians to mug/threaten Kenny's group or anything. Its not like Arvo's actions had led to a blood bath... right?
It was a complete miracle that no one in the group had been killed. Arvo deserved to be treated a little rough. I do think Kenny punching him was a little too much though.
acts like dictator, causing Mike (Bonnie) to betray to group and Clem gets shot during their escape
How was he acting like a dictator at all? Are you saying that just because he was angry about people not agreeing with him about Wellington? Mike and Bonnie split from the group because they were stupid.
Kind of funny how you're indirectly trying to pin Clem getting shot on Kenny, considering Kenny was the only one in the group who knew better than to trust some stupid kid who had just lit up his entire group only a day ago. If everyone had listened to Kenny, Arvo wouldn't have even been there to shoot Clem. The group wouldn't have wasted their time with Arvo at all, and Luke would have still been alive.
Plan to find Wellington. He wants to risks everyones lifes based on a story. It doest matter that it actually existed, because you dont have any factual evidence of its existence when you decide to look for it.
So just because you don't have evidence of the place existing that means there isn't any merit in checking it out? It was a higher risk- higher reward scenario, and worth looking into.
I don't know why everyone acts like traveling up north is some sort of death trap. If Wellington turned out to be nothing but a myth, the group could just turn around and go back... not a big deal.
First of all, Kenny is on 2 seasons and he has ridiculous screen time compared to Jane.
1. Jane saved the group from Troy outside howe's
2… more. Taught everyone how to pass through herds (clementine knew this but she didnt mention/remember it)
2. She made sure Clementine and Rebecca got out of the herd safely
3. She saved Luke from the trailer
4. ice incident and later getting the fire started.
On 2nd season, Kenny put Clementine or other people more in danger than was being helpful.
* Caused Walter to die and was ready to let Alvin die
* wanted to rambo his way out of the truck and possibly get himself & someone else killed
* Forced Clementine to take the walkie talkie, putting her at huge risk
* Wasted time beating Carvers dead corpse, costing the group time. (it was a fucking escape plan... You dont just stop to bash someones face in)
* Wants Rebecca to move after just one day of recovery (she dies anyway, but it was stupid… [view original content]
They put that baby in a lot of danger to chase after ghosts. If they had been wrong, AJ would have been doomed
How do you figure that? Considering AJ made the 9 day trip just fine, they clearly had some sort of plan for him that was working. If Wellington turned out to be bogus, they could have just gone back with AJ being potentially fine.
Nevermind that going back to Howe's to find formula first was probably a good idea. They could have gone back to find supplies and then gone to Wellington but noooo.
That was the point of Kenny telling the group that they were going into the small city for supplies at the end of Episode Four. Considering the baby was basically out of formula before heading up to Wellington but still managed to be fine after nine days of travel, we can assume that Kenny had something figured out.
You sure are making a lot of assumptions about Wellington. We have no clue what's really going on in there. And if there's going to be a sea… moreson 3 with Clementine as the protag, then clearly the place can't be all sunshine and roses and perfection.
Plus, Kenny was taking a shot in the dark and got lucky as hell that he was right. They put that baby in a lot of danger to chase after ghosts. If they had been wrong, AJ would have been doomed. But Kenny didn't seem to care about that, because he was convinced it was out there so that was that. Nevermind that going back to Howe's to find formula first was probably a good idea. They could have gone back to find supplies and then gone to Wellington but noooo.
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Kenny is the classic example of 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions.' Very few people try to do the wrong thing. The problem is that trying to do the right thing doesn't mean you're doing the right thing nor does it give you a free pass from the consequences.
I feel sympathy for Kenny but his grief doesn't justify his actions. His grief doesn't give him a free pass.
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That wasn't the situation at all though, so making that comparison doesn't make any sense. You're putting total emotional attachment into the picture, which changes everything. Once Clem/Sarita were put in danger, Kenny decided his plan was no longer worth it, considering they would die if he continued, and they were the only people he really cared about anyway.
As I said in the other thread, Kenny had no idea what would happen in the case of surrendering. Carver potentially could have just killed them all once he had everyone rounded up. So Kenny taking his chances at shooting makes complete sense, given that he had no idea that Carver was just going to let everyone live.
Lets look at this hypothetically. Lets say Kenny decided to do nothing at all in that situation, and Carver just assumed that there was no one left to round up. Carver then guns everyone down and leaves with Rebecca. Now, would you say Kenny made the right decision by not getting involved?
You can have your own preferences for how you would personally take your chances in that situation, but acting like Kenny did something stupid in that situation isn't fair at all.
Make this as simple as possible: If he doesn't he might kill people and he might not. You open fire - he will absolutely start killing people. Which is the better option? Think it through, it takes less than 5 seconds to figure out that might die is always better than will die. Kenny didn't even take the time to think it through.
Clem/Sarita were already in danger, he amplified the danger by shooting.
Have you ever read anything about hostage negotiations or watched a hostage situation on the news? Shooting at hostage takers is never the first option because it gets people killed.
Rob Corddry as Kenny the Hostage Negotiator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiZjn0xSn1Q
That is such an illogical way to look at the situation. Kenny shouldn't just bank on the fact that Carver might not decide to kill everyone. That's kind of ridiculous given the stakes. What if Kenny had followed your logic, surrendered, and then everyone was gunned down? Still a good idea? You're simply not taking into account that there are risks no matter what Kenny does in that situation. One could argue that giving up is logically the greater risk, considering everyone is then left 100% defenseless and at the mercy of Carver. He would no longer need to keep anyone alive in that particular situation, considering he had only been using them as bait to draw everyone out (even before Kenny started shooting).
You're trying to apply a matter of likelihood to the outcome of each potential decision and it just doesn't make any sort of sense considering Kenny had no possible way of knowing what was more likely to happen. The only reason why you know otherwise is because of having played through the game and finding out what Carver's full intentions were.
Again, there isn't actually a way to know this. Carver could have just killed them regardless of Kenny doing anything at all. There is no way for Kenny to know. There is no way to argue danger levels without hindsight.
Not comparable at all. Carver was freaking torturing someone in the building and demanding that everyone come out of hiding/ surrender. There were no negotiations to be had.
Nobody ever has any possible way of knowing what's going to happen. So you make the choice that has the best odds to work. Shooting is not the best choice unless you have the ability to take out the hostage takers - Kenny overestimated his abilities and people died. It's reckless.
What does Kenny know?
If you have even the most rudimentary capacity for basic human thought you know what the rational decision is.
It's not comparable? Really? A hostage situation is not comparable to a hostage situation? Got ya. I'm guessing you don't compare apples to apples, then.
He surrenders when Carver puts his gun to Clementine's head. Why? Because even though he doesn't know what will happen if he surrenders he knows what will happen if he doesn't. That is the rational choice he should have made from the start.
...okay? So why are you trying to make an argument that one outcome is more likely than the other?
If you're not trying to make that argument, then there is zero sense in having a problem with which side of the equation that Kenny appealed to.
Yes, I understand what the risks of the situation are. I'm not ignoring them. You however, are completely ignoring the fact that Carver could have just killed everyone. Again, you're trying to apply a matter of likelihood to the outcome of each potential decision when you don't actually have a way of doing that without hindsight. Without hindsight, you don't know that Carver was more likely to leave everyone alone if Kenny hadn't started shooting. People could have died either way. The fact that Kenny's shooting triggered a response is completely irrelevant, given that the only other option was giving up. In the instance that he gave up, everyone could have been killed.
And please don't respond by saying: "omggg but Carver would for sure kill someone if Kenny shot at one of his guys, compared to him maybe not deciding to slaughter everybody if Kenny had simply given up and left everyone to his mercy." Saying that is completely ignoring the stakes and circumstances of the situation. And again, you can't apply likelihood to either situation without hindsight. We only know that Kenny shooting at Carver's men triggered executing hostages because he actually did it. Without hindsight, its impossible to know what Carver was going to do in the case of everyone surrendering to him.
Insults+ a completely black-white way of thinking... way to push your argument.
You're not even thinking. You're ignoring all context of the situations. It isn't even close to an apples to apples comparison. In a typical hostage setting in everyday life, there are multiple officers on hand to deal with the situation. It typically ends with the criminal giving up, because he realizes there isn't a better alternative. Kenny was just one man. There was no way Carver was going to give up or negotiate. That seriously should go without saying.
Its not an equal comparison at all.
I was pointing out that in the best of situations with multiple armed people to deal with the hostage takers that shooting is still a stupid decision. One man, alone - it's retarded.
He surrenders when Carver puts his gun to Clementine's head. Why? Because even though he doesn't know what will happen if he surrenders he knows what will happen if he doesn't. That is the rational choice he should have made from the start.
It's still not comparable at all, because you're still ignoring the context of the situations. Kenny only had two alternatives, those being to engage Carver or give up. There was no negotiating to be had, and there definitely was no way to coerce Carver through numbers/ threat level. Carver was not going to negotiate or give up to one single guy. Seriously, you can't honestly tell me the situations are even close to being fairly comparable.
Because at that point there is no sense in continuing considering it would defeat the purpose of what he was fighting for in the first place. It only made sense to give up at that point. His hand was forced. Prior to that though? No.
Not sure why you decided to ignore basically all of the actual points I made in my previous post.
He was already beaten. Anybody with half a brain knew that. It already made sense to give up. The fight was over once they started lining people up. It's not that hard to figure out.
I'm through arguing with two-bit Kenny apologists. For people who claim that you don't think Kenny was perfect you certainly spend a lot of time trying to justify his fuck-ups.
So Kenny should give up and potentially leave everyone for dead just because the odds were against him? Right.. that's a great line of thinking. (Not)
He actually comes really close to killing Carver if you let him take a shot at him.
Simply arguing for common sense. I wish you would take me up on my points instead of just name calling and checking out of the conversation.
Oh well.
i was also with Kenny da whole way through ever since we met him again at da lodge all da way through epi. 5. i never rly trusted jane from da get go anyways, cuz of da fact dat she ditches ppls like her sister, then she ditched da baby just to piss off Kenny. I just never rly liked her character at all, so i also watched Kenny kill Jane, and i went along with him to Willington. (but also cuz, i don't like da fact dat she saw Beca's baby as a liability and ask'n such a stupid question of "what are you go'n to do with it?" and even call'n da baby an "it" come on now, dats just rude >:[ ) Heck i also agreed with him leave'n da next morning instead of take'n Luke's idea of wait'n a few days and go'n..lol cuz if i went along with Luke's idea of wait'n a few days, i guess Kenny would complain about how we should've left early in da morning. ^^b But in a way, i'm glad dat i agreed with some of Kenny's ideas most of da way through, and i had clem say'n dat "we are going together and thats that" well i know Kenny sometimes has a temper tantrum and all, but i also know dat he's just look'n out for whats best for Clem and AJ. So dats why i didn't want to go to "Willington" by myself with da baby, i just simply said dat i'm go'n with Kenny. ^_^ Plus, there's just too many feels for me personally if i chose da option of parting with Kenny, while we go to Willington. So in some ways, i guess i kinda agree with da OP here lol
Nobody takes zykelator seriously. They have some good points, but most of the time present said points in such a rude and abrasive way, that even fellow Jane fans don't want to be associated with them.
I love your posts Lemoncakes, they never cease to entertain me in the best kind of way.
Do explain why nobody takes me seriously?
Who are "they"?
Your message was rather confusing to read.
Because almost every debate you have turns into an argument, and you can't seem to refrain from insulting others in your posts while still proving your point. I believe you have the ability to debate civilly, but you choose to conduct yourself in an antagonistic manner. There are even times where you act in the way a troll would.
You are "they", because I don't know if you're a boy or a girl.
Tinni speaks the truth.
Because everytime i prove my point, people ignore it and call it a opinion. When for example, if safety of Clementine i priority, there is a right answer to that, like it or not. When you look at all the facts the game provides us, there is right answer to that question. Some people just fail to see it, or their priority isnt Clementines safety and survival (which i would assume is the priority, considering the game is about Clementine).
FINALLY, someone smart for a change. how could someone pick jane a selfish woman who you've known for two days,over a man whos done nothing but protect you and have known for TWO YEARS.any way got a little carried away, kenny is the way to go people
Selfish girl who saves you from under water, risking her own life and then starts getting fire started so you dont freeze. Meanwhile, your protector Kenny is busy beating helpless kid and ignores you completely. Yeah, i see your point.
ok ill give you that one, but since were keeping score: Jane 2(the ice incident, and survival tips)
kenny: 5(going out in season 1 to get food, suplies,etc) 3(helping to get clem back) 2(risked his life to save ben or christa,depending on your decisions) 10( protected clem every time he could) 10(risked his own safety for clem and aj)
you do the math
Well if Kenny is right about everything.....
Then shouldnt you shoot him?
Becuase after hes shot he says you made the right choice.
We all have different opinions on who Clem is safest with, we can engage in debate to attempt to convince people who disagree with us to concede to our viewpoint, the goal is to make it near impossible to refute your position's claims, but you can't expect every person to agree with you. The minute someone goes "I'm right and you're wrong, there is only one right answer, and it is mine", people check out immediately. You do just this, so they aren't going to take you seriously. Nor does it help when you try to justify insulting people because you get frustrated when they don't agree with you, or they refute your point.
Thanks, I'm really good at posting.
in moments like this i miss the dislike button, plain for the "didn't read lol"
A scratch?! Your eye is off!
I take everyone seriously.
"Dislike Troll".
i will agree with that, but you have to remember that there are assholes on both sides, i dont want to be associated with Lemoncakes, just because im a Kenny fan too
First of all, Kenny is on 2 seasons and he has ridiculous screen time compared to Jane.
1. Jane saved the group from Troy outside howe's
2. Taught everyone how to pass through herds (clementine knew this but she didnt mention/remember it)
2. She made sure Clementine and Rebecca got out of the herd safely
3. She saved Luke from the trailer
4. ice incident and later getting the fire started.
On 2nd season, Kenny put Clementine or other people more in danger than was being helpful.
Only difference i see between season 1 and season 2 Kenny is that he got more violent and more unstable. Which is the main reason i shot him. I know he meant good with many things he did, put he put Clementine at risk too many times and was blinded by his anger many times.
holy shit, it all makes sense know, praise Kenny the all knowing
Every opinion isnt equally good. If someone said its safest to go with Arvo, could you take that opinion seriously?
I try to give good points and make others understand why it is the safest way, but they just ignore/discredit everything.
Many people dont even understand what rationality means. If the safety & survival of Clementine is your priority, doing everything to ensure this is the most rational thing to do. Now, either people think its safe to be around mentally unstable violent man, which sounds completely delusional, or they just dont care about Clementines safety and survival.
If survival of Kenny and your friendship is the priority, letting Kenny murder Jane is the most rational thing to do.
You sure are making a lot of assumptions about Wellington. We have no clue what's really going on in there. And if there's going to be a season 3 with Clementine as the protag, then clearly the place can't be all sunshine and roses and perfection.
Plus, Kenny was taking a shot in the dark and got lucky as hell that he was right. They put that baby in a lot of danger to chase after ghosts. If they had been wrong, AJ would have been doomed. But Kenny didn't seem to care about that, because he was convinced it was out there so that was that. Nevermind that going back to Howe's to find formula first was probably a good idea. They could have gone back to find supplies and then gone to Wellington but noooo.
Can't blame him for this. There is no way he could have known Carver's intentions. Carver could have just killed everyone after Kenny surrendered. Kenny more than had reason enough to handle the situation the way that he did.
I personally don't side with him on his decision making here either, but people fail to look at his side of the argument for whatever reason. In his mind, the truck was the perfect opportunity for escape, compared to actually getting locked away somewhere. And to be fair, his plan actually had a good chance of working if everyone had listened to him. Troy, Tavia, and Bonnie were standing right outside the back of the truck with their guns lowered. They could have been overpowered.
The actual beating only took like an extra 20 seconds. I think we can excuse Kenny for that considering he was the one who actually did something in the first place. How long would everyone have argued about what to do with Carver? Its just nitpicky to criticize Kenny for this.
Fair enough, maybe. There really weren't any great alternatives though.
Yeah, It's not like Arvo had just brought his gang of Russians to mug/threaten Kenny's group or anything. Its not like Arvo's actions had led to a blood bath... right?
It was a complete miracle that no one in the group had been killed. Arvo deserved to be treated a little rough. I do think Kenny punching him was a little too much though.
How was he acting like a dictator at all? Are you saying that just because he was angry about people not agreeing with him about Wellington? Mike and Bonnie split from the group because they were stupid.
Kind of funny how you're indirectly trying to pin Clem getting shot on Kenny, considering Kenny was the only one in the group who knew better than to trust some stupid kid who had just lit up his entire group only a day ago. If everyone had listened to Kenny, Arvo wouldn't have even been there to shoot Clem. The group wouldn't have wasted their time with Arvo at all, and Luke would have still been alive.
So just because you don't have evidence of the place existing that means there isn't any merit in checking it out? It was a higher risk- higher reward scenario, and worth looking into.
I don't know why everyone acts like traveling up north is some sort of death trap. If Wellington turned out to be nothing but a myth, the group could just turn around and go back... not a big deal.
How do you figure that? Considering AJ made the 9 day trip just fine, they clearly had some sort of plan for him that was working. If Wellington turned out to be bogus, they could have just gone back with AJ being potentially fine.
That was the point of Kenny telling the group that they were going into the small city for supplies at the end of Episode Four. Considering the baby was basically out of formula before heading up to Wellington but still managed to be fine after nine days of travel, we can assume that Kenny had something figured out.