Regardless of celebrity costs, I still would have rather had Carver be the villain for the entire Season. Imagine the climactic fight of Ep… moreisode 5 still being set at the rest-stop in a blinding blizzard, but rather than have two adults squabbling we have an isolated Clem being stalked by a violet madman.
As for Carlos... He got shot dummy. Had nothing to do with Sarah panicking.
Technically it did. If Sarah didn't Panic, Carlos wouldn't of stopped to talk to Clementine, to delay him from moving, so he would have avoided being shot.
Reggie wasn't gonna get redeemed. He had a black mark on his hand bro.
As for Carlos... He got shot dummy. Had nothing to do with Sara… moreh panicking.
None of those other things sound like Sarah's fault to me. they sound like situations that Sarah played a role in. She may have been useless and a total baby... But she didn't kill anyone.
I ain't ever played The Last Of Us, but regardless of similarities I think a stand-off against Carver would have been much more fun than Kenny's stupid deathmatch with Jane.
As for Carver's stupidity, remember that his entire community isn't that smart. They freak out once he's gone ("Where's Bill? We need him up here!"), start wasting all of their ammo on spraying blindly, send only one guy to turn off the music, and don't even watch their backs, allowing for zombies to somehow magically teleport onto the roof and eat them.
She is, if she had survived, the future of humanity(every kid is precious in a Z-A if you want humanity to survive), and i personally blame Carlos for not exposing her to danger so she could get used to it, every little step at a time
You're scenario was a lot like TLOU's David and Ellie sequence is all. But I do agree a duke off between Carver and Clem could have been very interesting. They would have had to have worked Carver as something other than an imbecile who, by some unfathomable act of God, got placed in his seat of power before it would have been that tantalizing. Though, to be honest, by the end there really was no ending which would have been worth my time throughout the rest of the 4 and a half episodes. (Obviously the story would have changed if Carver was even at the end, but the writing would have still likely been as faulted and ridiculous if they decided to keep him around or not.)
What better way to make an 11 year old girl appear smart and capable than to make everyone else stupid as shit and incapable of/uninterested in doing minor tasks? It's like putting light grey next to black and seeing white. Really sucks when you look at it individually....
I ain't ever played The Last Of Us, but regardless of similarities I think a stand-off against Carver would have been much more fun than Ken… moreny's stupid deathmatch with Jane.
As for Carver's stupidity, remember that his entire community isn't that smart. They freak out once he's gone ("Where's Bill? We need him up here!"), start wasting all of their ammo on spraying blindly, send only one guy to turn off the music, and don't even watch their backs, allowing for zombies to somehow magically teleport onto the roof and eat them.
An isolated Clem being stalked by a violet madman.
That lends itself well to a callback to the beginning of the game. Where Clem is trying to escape that guy in the woods, and no matter what she does, it seems like she can't get away. If Carver vs. Clem was the final battle, you could have a reprise of that kind of struggle, but with Clem actually winning this time by using the things she's learned since the beginning of the game. Of course, that means Clem would need to learn stuff too. =P
They probably could have done that if they were smarter about when to use Carver's character. He only appears in two episodes, so I say drop him from A House Divided. Like I said, no reason the actual leader of such a big community should be running around in the woods alone, even if it was personal for him. Give him a big introduction in Harm's Way and let him be the focal point of that episode. Then he's "defeated" by the heroes who escape. He's missing from Amid the Ruins, but makes a big comeback at the end of No Going Back where he's trying to personally claim A.J. for himself.
That's still just two episodes of voice work. You could replace Arvo and the Russians with people from Howe's who've come after the group. That way you still feel Carver's presence even when he's missing from episode four. And that would add some urgency to getting away if everyone knew Carver is still out there. It would actually make Kenny's non-stop insistence to leave right now more understandable, especially when you remember Carver's people completely ruined his life at the lodge.
Personally I don't have a problem with them ditching Carver and Howe's when they did because it just amounted to another "Bad Guy Camp", and the Walking Dead has done those to death. Even S1 was guilty of it. Every time our "heroes" get a little too morally gray, here comes a great big group of assholes to make them look better. And anyone in the asshole camp who's not evil themselves will either die at the hands of the assholes or switch sides to the heroes. Howe's was a textbook case. Reggie was the sacrificial non-asshole, and Bonnie the non-asshole who realizes everyone else was a bunch of assholes. Everyone else we see is toting around rifles at all god damn times to make it clear their violent assholes, except Becca, but we already knew she was an asshole. =P
I much would have preferred a much more morally grey area with Howe's. I talked about in my Lilly post that bad people can actually do good things, but only for selfish reasons. Howe's could have been the place to explore that concept. I was actually writing a really big post, but I think I've gone off topic enough. Short version, people are willing to tolerate some evil, if they're getting enough in return, and there situations is dire enough. If Howe's kept it's prisoners fed, then it might not seem so bad living in a prison then dying out in a wasteland. Least not till the day the warden decides your use is at an end.
Regardless of celebrity costs, I still would have rather had Carver be the villain for the entire Season. Imagine the climactic fight of Ep… moreisode 5 still being set at the rest-stop in a blinding blizzard, but rather than have two adults squabbling we have an isolated Clem being stalked by a violet madman.
Well like I said, that's if you just wanted to Carver to be a sadistic asshole. Have him do some stuff that make us really hate him. Instead… more the writer's wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Carver's a charismatic cunning manipulative leader! Except when he's a petty sadist! And like Jane, he sucks pretty hard at both things he's suppose to be characteristic for.
He's a fucking idiot who's not fit to captain a cereal box but his monstrous side is mostly limited to slapping young girls and pushing a meek disabled man off a building. He can torture Alvin, but we don't actually see it, and Alvin sounds just fine during his last scene despite the fact he looks half-dead. Kenny walks off possible brain damage (although that might because Kenny didn't need the use of his brain). You don't see the impact of these acts, nor do they feel all that hard to watch because they keep cutting around the grizzler parts. We don't even see Reggie hit th… [view original content]
Regardless of celebrity costs, I still would have rather had Carver be the villain for the entire Season. Imagine the climactic fight of Ep… moreisode 5 still being set at the rest-stop in a blinding blizzard, but rather than have two adults squabbling we have an isolated Clem being stalked by a violet madman.
I didn't end up saving Sarah, but it wasn't because I didn't try. I tried, and she didn't respond. I didn't think I could hang out any longer to get her out of her funk. It was as simple, and as sad, as that.
I think people have strong dislike of Sarah precisely because they couldn't save her, and because many felt she never really had a fighting chance. Sarah represents innocence, and people generally want to protect innocence. When you can't protect innocence, precisely because the situation makes traits associated with innocence (childish joy, vulnerability, imagination vs. practicality) into a liability, people turn on the traits they originally wanted to protect. But ultimately, traits that aren't useful for survival (childish joy, vulnerability, wonder, etc.) are traits that make life more than just drudgery. So being unable to protect these things, feeling like these things never really even had a shot of making it - that is really frustrating / angering, and cause people to turn on those traits. Which then leads to a feeling of guilt, which deepens the turn against those traits.
I didn't dislike Sarah. I just wanted to survive because I want to turn the world back around so that it would be safe for innocent people again.
I didn't end up saving Sarah, but it wasn't because I didn't try. I tried, and she didn't respond. I didn't think I could hang out any lon… moreger to get her out of her funk. It was as simple, and as sad, as that.
I think people have strong dislike of Sarah precisely because they couldn't save her, and because many felt she never really had a fighting chance. Sarah represents innocence, and people generally want to protect innocence. When you can't protect innocence, precisely because the situation makes traits associated with innocence (childish joy, vulnerability, imagination vs. practicality) into a liability, people turn on the traits they originally wanted to protect. But ultimately, traits that aren't useful for survival (childish joy, vulnerability, wonder, etc.) are traits that make life more than just drudgery. So being unable to protect these things, feeling like these things never really even had a shot of making it - that is re… [view original content]
I would've revamped In Harm's Way entirely. This is, of course, speaking from the privilege of unlimited budget and no time constraint:
It's been discussed on this forum before that Clementine and co. essentially doomed an entire community of innocent people in a short-sighted attempt to escape. While this is an interesting moral grey, it's never actually brought up within the narrative itself and feels rather morally myopic as a result. If there was more of an effort to establish empathy with members of Howe's, or at least providing us a connection with their humanity, than perhaps the episode would have been more compelling than simple Good Prisoners vs. Evil Captors.
People bemoaned the cameos of the 400 Days characters as poorly-implemented, and they were. But at the same time they proved, at least to me, that the majority of the community were essentially decent people who'd hardened as a result of spending years in a paranoid situation. Russell, for example, had to be convinced that his grandmother was at Howe's in order to follow Tavia. What if we got to see members of Carver's community who weren't guards - grandparents, children, the weak and sickly? Even if he's creepily obsessed with brainwashing and indoctrinating people, Carver's insane philosophy didn't seem to have been brought to the same stupid impractical extent that Crawford's was.
So let's get rid of Reggie, the disposable hostage who gets dismissed as having Stockholm Syndrome and is proven wrong by the fact that he gets killed. Let's not use weak-willed, flip-flopping Bonnie as a turncoat. Let's develop the role of Tavia as an example of a person who supports the community - let's try to make her a reasonable yet strict co-leader of the group who provides insight into the challenges of preparing for winter and fighting off bandit attacks. Let's develop her as an antagonist who's more sympathetic than simply apathetic. WHY is she complicit with Carver's mistreatment of the prisoners? If we were given reason to understand her, then perhaps we could see Howe's as more than just a group of jerks.
Clementine herself would have a little more rein to explore Howe's, seeing as Carver would've encountered her as just a stranger who was unlucky enough to have been "misled" by the escapees. Instead, he'd use her as a spy, spending days working with the prisoners and being forced to report to Carver each night. Rather than be a grade-school bully, he'd portray himself as a concerned father whose hand has been forced, and he'd talk on and on about the prisoners' misdeeds. He'd force Clem to see firsthand the victims of zombie attacks and bandit raids, trying to show her the necessity of strength rather than just giving her tough talk. More than anything, he doesn't actually respect Clem - he's just sweet-talking her because he assumes she's just a little kid.
He uses Troy, a desperately insecure and disrespected man, as a way to avoid getting his hands dirty. I mentioned before the possibility of him allowing Troy to sexually abuse Sarah at the greenhouse - this is an evil act that, at the same time, isn't as blatantly ridiculous as throwing a man off a roof in front of little kids in broad daylight. Troy is allowed free rein to abuse the prisoners in order to avoid having him turn his sociopathic tendencies on 'innocent' members. When Luke is captured and his complicity in sabotaging the community is discovered (the radio would be replaced with a pipe-bomb), Nick offers himself up in order to save his friend - Troy is directed to amputate his hand. He eventually immures Clem and Sarah in Carver's office, but is distracted by another bandit attack and leaves just long enough for the girls to escape.
At the end of In Harm's Way, Troy is the guy who tries to stop the prisoners from escaping during the chaos and Clem gets the drop on him. Here, the survivors decide his fate. Clem can either shoot him wherever she wants, Carver would demand that he castrate Troy, Rebecca would want him shot in the head, Nick'd want his arms shot off...you get the idea. If Sarah or Luke are allowed to decide his fate, they'll simply want him tied up and left to the mercy of the zombies.
Amid The Ruins would focus on Clem aligning with a group of bandits who bear a grudge against Carver, with Tavia leading the group that is out seeking revenge against the prisoners who effectively destroyed her home.
An isolated Clem being stalked by a violet madman.
That lends itself well to a callback to the beginning of the game. Where Clem is … moretrying to escape that guy in the woods, and no matter what she does, it seems like she can't get away. If Carver vs. Clem was the final battle, you could have a reprise of that kind of struggle, but with Clem actually winning this time by using the things she's learned since the beginning of the game. Of course, that means Clem would need to learn stuff too. =P
They probably could have done that if they were smarter about when to use Carver's character. He only appears in two episodes, so I say drop him from A House Divided. Like I said, no reason the actual leader of such a big community should be running around in the woods alone, even if it was personal for him. Give him a big introduction in Harm's Way and let him be the focal point of that episode. Then he's "defeated" by the heroes who escape. He… [view original content]
One of the biggest themes in this series is that "the world will never be good again." Or, if you're cynical/realistic, "the world never was good to begin with." There's no point in justifying the death of innocent people as being acceptable because of a hypothetically better future, because there WON'T BE a better future if everybody keeps letting innocent people die without even trying. You can't let people like Sarah die because "you want to turn the world back around so it'd be safe for innocent people again", that attitude would never change the world.
I didn't end up saving Sarah, but it wasn't because I didn't try. I tried, and she didn't respond. I didn't think I could hang out any lon… moreger to get her out of her funk. It was as simple, and as sad, as that.
I think people have strong dislike of Sarah precisely because they couldn't save her, and because many felt she never really had a fighting chance. Sarah represents innocence, and people generally want to protect innocence. When you can't protect innocence, precisely because the situation makes traits associated with innocence (childish joy, vulnerability, imagination vs. practicality) into a liability, people turn on the traits they originally wanted to protect. But ultimately, traits that aren't useful for survival (childish joy, vulnerability, wonder, etc.) are traits that make life more than just drudgery. So being unable to protect these things, feeling like these things never really even had a shot of making it - that is re… [view original content]
LOL!!!
I did try to save her (as was clearly stated). I was playing through for the first time, no prior information. I didn't know that staying longer would have helped or gotten me killed. So in my opinion, your argument is invalid.
I like your enthusiasm tho.
You didn't try hard enough lol.
One of the biggest themes in this series is that "the world will never be good again." Or, if you're cyn… moreical/realistic, "the world never was good to begin with." There's no point in justifying the death of innocent people as being acceptable because of a hypothetically better future, because there WON'T BE a better future if everybody keeps letting innocent people die without even trying. You can't let people like Sarah die because "you want to turn the world back around so it'd be safe for innocent people again", that attitude would never change the world.
As for Carlos... He got shot dummy. Had nothing to do with Sarah panicking.
Technically it did. If Sarah didn't Panic, Carlos wouldn't of stopped to talk to Clementine, to delay him from moving, so he would have avoided being shot.
As for Carlos... He got shot dummy. Had nothing to do with Sarah panicking.
Technically it did. If Sarah didn't Panic, Carlos wouldn't of stopped to talk to Clementine, to delay him from moving, so he would have avoided being shot.
Please give an example that he is delusional. Is he under extreme stress? Yes. Is he suffering from terrible loss? Yes. Does he strike out when angered? Yes. Did he ever murder anyone? Please point to one person that he killed that was not a murderer, or perceived as a murderer (in Jane's case). Beating up the Russian kid? I would have done the same thing, he jumped the group with guns, and later proved to be a piece of shit when shooting Clementine proving Kenny was right about him. Also you accused Kenny of being a pedophile. Please post an example of this.
"A psycho is someone who can calmly and methodically kill someone" I'm afraid that is not the definition of a "psychotic".
Nice try. Look… more it up first. Kenny is someone who has lost touch with reality. He is delusional. He is manic. He is a psycho.
Jane killed only a few people. That scumbag that worked for carver, and that Ruskie. The scumbag she shot in in his gems, so my guess is he probably assaulted her, and therefore deserved to die. The Ruskie she killed to save the group. And she expressed to Clem how bad she felt for killing someone that hadn't wronged Her directly. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
LOL!!!
I did try to save her (as was clearly stated). I was playing through for the first time, no prior information. I didn't know that… more staying longer would have helped or gotten me killed. So in my opinion, your argument is invalid.
I like your enthusiasm tho.
The moral tunnel vision pissed me off too, especially because it felt very deliberate. It's like in Star Wars when the Empire blows up a peaceful planet just so you won't give a shit about the millions that died on the Death Star later. But the difference is that's Star Wars, it's fantasy escapism personified, nothing about it is trying to resemble reality, it's just crazy adventures for fun's sake. The Walking Dead is suppose to be all about "realism" and "pessimism" and "people making hard choices" but then they always throw out the bad guy group to avoid the moral conundrums.
I saw someone in the "Details you may have missed" thread post a blueprint of Howe's pulled form somewhere. One of the sections on the map is labeled "nursery". Wow, I wonder how many babies our "heroes" murdered? Oh well, more formula for A.J. in the end. =P
I would've revamped In Harm's Way entirely. This is, of course, speaking from the privilege of unlimited budget and no time constraint:
… moreIt's been discussed on this forum before that Clementine and co. essentially doomed an entire community of innocent people in a short-sighted attempt to escape. While this is an interesting moral grey, it's never actually brought up within the narrative itself and feels rather morally myopic as a result. If there was more of an effort to establish empathy with members of Howe's, or at least providing us a connection with their humanity, than perhaps the episode would have been more compelling than simple Good Prisoners vs. Evil Captors.
People bemoaned the cameos of the 400 Days characters as poorly-implemented, and they were. But at the same time they proved, at least to me, that the majority of the community were essentially decent people who'd hardened as a result of spending years in a paranoid … [view original content]
I for one didn't attempt to [Convince Sarah] because the more time we spent, the greater the risk to us. Like with Luke on the Ice, after he fell through, i did try a few time to crack open the ice but I quit before Clem fell through. It was just too risky so I watched him sink.
They were both generally good people that didn't deserve what happened, but how far must one go to try to help? How close to death do we have to reach before we can say we really tried? Clem told Sarah several times to get up. When the option to get out arrived, I took it. My Clem deserves to live too.. I tried with Luke, but not to the point of falling in and risk drowning. Clem deserves to live too.
So you didn't try [Convince Sarah] or [Slap Sarah]? The game doesn't actually give you that many options.
Then again, I might be too cynical about how little danger Clementine is actually put in.
Again, this would have been interesting had the characters even acknowledged any doubts about whether it was right to get everybody at Howe's killed. Bonnie in particular doesn't seem to have any regrets about betraying people she's lived with for years.
The moral tunnel vision pissed me off too, especially because it felt very deliberate. It's like in Star Wars when the Empire blows up a pea… moreceful planet just so you won't give a shit about the millions that died on the Death Star later. But the difference is that's Star Wars, it's fantasy escapism personified, nothing about it is trying to resemble reality, it's just crazy adventures for fun's sake. The Walking Dead is suppose to be all about "realism" and "pessimism" and "people making hard choices" but then they always throw out the bad guy group to avoid the moral conundrums.
I saw someone in the "Details you may have missed" thread post a blueprint of Howe's pulled form somewhere. One of the sections on the map is labeled "nursery". Wow, I wonder how many babies our "heroes" murdered? Oh well, more formula for A.J. in the end. =P
Yet another perfect use for Sarah. Have her express concerns during the planning scene. Asking what'll happen to all the other people at Howe's who aren't mean like Carver and Troy? Raising the point that Howe's actually kept her safe for a long time and she didn't do anything bad to others when she lived here before. And since this happens after she gets beaten, it would really exemplify how much she cares for others, yet their could also be some room for doubt in her intentions since she might just be afraid to get in trouble again.
You could even explore her objection with Clem's dialogue options. Questioning Sarah's motives and asking whenever it's really the others she's worried about or herself getting punished? You could try to convince her of the necessity of leaving, telling what happened to Reggie will probably happen to her at some point. Or even agree with her, saying that even though you want to escape, it's not right to endanger everyone at Howe's just because of what Carver is doing.
Oh but what am I saying? A game where a young girl questions the morality of others in a dire survival situation, adding a layer of complexity to situations that might seem more cut and dry otherwise? Who the fuck would play that?
Again, this would have been interesting had the characters even acknowledged any doubts about whether it was right to get everybody at Howe'… mores killed. Bonnie in particular doesn't seem to have any regrets about betraying people she's lived with for years.
I for one didn't attempt to [Convince Sarah] because the more time we spent, the greater the risk to us. Like with Luke on the Ice, after he… more fell through, i did try a few time to crack open the ice but I quit before Clem fell through. It was just too risky so I watched him sink.
They were both generally good people that didn't deserve what happened, but how far must one go to try to help? How close to death do we have to reach before we can say we really tried? Clem told Sarah several times to get up. When the option to get out arrived, I took it. My Clem deserves to live too.. I tried with Luke, but not to the point of falling in and risk drowning. Clem deserves to live too.
Nope. I tried to get her to go, she wouldn't, people were hurrying out, Zombies were flooding in, and she still wasn't moving. So I left. Without knowing at the time that [Convince Sarah] or [Slap Sarah] were choices, I can honestly say that I tried to save her but it didn't work. I did think waiting longer would have gotten me killed. I wanted to play all the way through without dying if possible.
So you didn't try [Convince Sarah] or [Slap Sarah]? The game doesn't actually give you that many options.
Then again, I might be too cynical about how little danger Clementine is actually put in.
I know you were joking. What you said just made me think of Carver suspending Clem and Sarah over a shark tank before laughingly maniacally and just walking out the door. =D
Like many, I'm also typing up my version of Season 2. I kept some similarities in In Harm's Way. But it's mainly different and I was trying to focus on Carver's Ep2 personality. When I looked at the Carlos scene, Carver is cruel but uses people emotions like it's all a game to him if they done wrong to him.
So in the beat down scene(still in planning), when Carver learns their plan(pushed to his limits of patience) to rebel he forces Clem to make a choice. He has Troy aim his gun at her and other gaurds aim at the rest except Luke and Kenny which Carver will deal with. Carver forces Clem to choose who he will punish or they all die. Carver will punish the one you choose.
Who did you choose for Carver to punish? Luke or Kenny?
Luke: Luke will get shot in the leg and lose a few fingers. Luke will understand as it was a tough situation for Clem.
Kenny: Kenny will get his eye badly damaged, almost beaten to death. Kenny would feel like Clem betrayed him.
Basically not only is Carver is not only playing the characters' emotions but also the player's too. Cruelty mixed with emotional manipulation. I won't go in full detail of how I want Carver to be completely, but it's getting there. I also have him go out in a scavenge hunt with Clem, teaching her things and explaining things of how he feels, ever since the Cabin's group escape, the death of George during their betrayal he's had a hard time trusting people. He's a bit schizophrenic because of it. He can be kind but if angered he's very dangerous.
I would've revamped In Harm's Way entirely. This is, of course, speaking from the privilege of unlimited budget and no time constraint:
… moreIt's been discussed on this forum before that Clementine and co. essentially doomed an entire community of innocent people in a short-sighted attempt to escape. While this is an interesting moral grey, it's never actually brought up within the narrative itself and feels rather morally myopic as a result. If there was more of an effort to establish empathy with members of Howe's, or at least providing us a connection with their humanity, than perhaps the episode would have been more compelling than simple Good Prisoners vs. Evil Captors.
People bemoaned the cameos of the 400 Days characters as poorly-implemented, and they were. But at the same time they proved, at least to me, that the majority of the community were essentially decent people who'd hardened as a result of spending years in a paranoid … [view original content]
We could've also had more insight into what Carver told Sarah after murdering Reggie right in front of her. Or what he said to Rebecca that made her cry. We see all these conversations that Clem never gets to understand, and it alienates us from the characters as a result.
But I still think Reggie as a character is unnecessary, because he exists mainly to make Carver seem "evil" - because apparently torturing a father and murdering a good guy in the previous episode wasn't already evil enough - and his loyalty to Carver is rendered stupid BECAUSE he gets murdered by him. I was thinking about having a supporter of Carver who wasn't dumb, violent or traitorous, and Tavia would be a good example. She seemed like a decent person during her 5-minute cameo in 400 Days - what if she retained that personality by the time Clem meets her?
Yet another perfect use for Sarah. Have her express concerns during the planning scene. Asking what'll happen to all the other people at How… moree's who aren't mean like Carver and Troy? Raising the point that Howe's actually kept her safe for a long time and she didn't do anything bad to others when she lived here before. And since this happens after she gets beaten, it would really exemplify how much she cares for others, yet their could also be some room for doubt in her intentions since she might just be afraid to get in trouble again.
You could even explore her objection with Clem's dialogue options. Questioning Sarah's motives and asking whenever it's really the others she's worried about or herself getting punished? You could try to convince her of the necessity of leaving, telling what happened to Reggie will probably happen to her at some point. Or even agree with her, saying that even though you want to escape, it's not right to endan… [view original content]
We see all these conversations that Clem never gets to understand, and it alienates us from the characters as a result.
Which is made all the more face palm worthy that Season 1 was notable in letting you TALK to people, and be involved with them, if you wanted to be. I remember how annoyed I was in A House Divided after the bridge scene, Sarah is just sitting on the ground next to Rebecca and Alvin, but there's no talk option. Then later in the lodge, she's decorating the Christmas tree, and still no talk option. Just Sarita, who just wants to talk about Kenny. At Howe's when you can look around, you can talk to Sarah but she says she's trying to be good for Reggie and stay quiet. Then next morning she actually does want to talk but now Clem can't talk because Carver is babbling on about whatever the fuck he's on about it. It's like the game was just trying to piss me off for wanting to make a connection with any of the characters. -_-
We could've also had more insight into what Carver told Sarah after murdering Reggie right in front of her. Or what he said to Rebecca that… more made her cry. We see all these conversations that Clem never gets to understand, and it alienates us from the characters as a result.
But I still think Reggie as a character is unnecessary, because he exists mainly to make Carver seem "evil" - because apparently torturing a father and murdering a good guy in the previous episode wasn't already evil enough - and his loyalty to Carver is rendered stupid BECAUSE he gets murdered by him. I was thinking about having a supporter of Carver who wasn't dumb, violent or traitorous, and Tavia would be a good example. She seemed like a decent person during her 5-minute cameo in 400 Days - what if she retained that personality by the time Clem meets her?
Something something no control something something you're supposed to feel frustrated.
Ugh. The hub sequences in Episode 4 seem to have been a direct response to Episode 3 not allowing you to talk much, but even then the writers didn't really know what to have the characters say to Clem. Particularly when it's writing dialogue between two young girls.
I dunno, maybe they should get a woman writer for one of Season 3's episodes.
We see all these conversations that Clem never gets to understand, and it alienates us from the characters as a result.
Which is mad… moree all the more face palm worthy that Season 1 was notable in letting you TALK to people, and be involved with them, if you wanted to be. I remember how annoyed I was in A House Divided after the bridge scene, Sarah is just sitting on the ground next to Rebecca and Alvin, but there's no talk option. Then later in the lodge, she's decorating the Christmas tree, and still no talk option. Just Sarita, who just wants to talk about Kenny. At Howe's when you can look around, you can talk to Sarah but she says she's trying to be good for Reggie and stay quiet. Then next morning she actually does want to talk but now Clem can't talk because Carver is babbling on about whatever the fuck he's on about it. It's like the game was just trying to piss me off for wanting to make a connection with any of the characters. -_-
Ironically by making Sarah kinda an alternate version of S1 Clem, they gave them a shitload in common to talk about. I found it amusing both Clem and Sarah have a doctor for a parent. And I find it odd that Sarah, someone completely dependent on her dad, never asks Clementine, someone younger than her, what happened to her parents.
Sarah never asks what Clem what she does for fun or what she wants (or wanted) to be when she grew up. Even if you accept this a PTSD Clem who is now joyless, it'd be interesting to see her admit she use to like drawing a lot when she was a little younger and maybe had dreams before the ZA. Sarah could have asked about Clem's haircut, and from there lead into a conversation about possibly cutting Sarah's hair, for practical reasons or even fun.
The writing staff didn't need a keen insight into young women to see these things, they were perfectly obvious. It's not like you needed a scene where Sarah gets her period and she and Clem have a conversation about that. All though, that could actually be interesting, since it could led to a bigger conversation about their age difference, and Clem wondering what the future has in store for her or even wondering if she'll live long enough to have a future. Also be amusing in that it would be one conversation where the target audience (young men) would be nearly as ignorant of the topic as Clementine would be.
Something something no control something something you're supposed to feel frustrated.
Ugh. The hub sequences in Episode 4 seem to have … morebeen a direct response to Episode 3 not allowing you to talk much, but even then the writers didn't really know what to have the characters say to Clem. Particularly when it's writing dialogue between two young girls.
I dunno, maybe they should get a woman writer for one of Season 3's episodes.
Exactly.. And Jane was the last to get out after helping Clem, I was worried Jane would get her leg bitten as it were.. If I tried longer to help Sarah, that could have cost us Jane. After seeing others play through, I realized I was only 1 hit away from falling through the Ice to save Luke. Obviously Clem survives that, but in the moment on my first play through, there's no way to know that.
Nope. I tried to get her to go, she wouldn't, people were hurrying out, Zombies were flooding in, and she still wasn't moving. So I left. … more Without knowing at the time that [Convince Sarah] or [Slap Sarah] were choices, I can honestly say that I tried to save her but it didn't work. I did think waiting longer would have gotten me killed. I wanted to play all the way through without dying if possible.
It'd be interesting if we did learn more about Clem's relationship with her parents, or any more details from her childhood (beyond her apparently treating Sandra like a 'secret sister' - why didn't she do the same with Sarah?). I had no idea that her mom was a doctor or dad was an engineer.
Lee was very important to her, yes, but that's mainly because the players remember being him. Clementine had a life outside of being his surrogate daughter. You might justify her not wanting to talk about the past as it being too painful, but it's harder to really understand Clem's loss if we didn't even know what she had to lose beyond Lee and her parents. There's that whole mess with Omid's death causing Christa's baby to die, but Clem doesn't seem to have repressed the memory so much as forgotten about it entirely.
Sarah apparently suffers from PTSD - I assume this might have meant she saw her mother die horribly. This'd be more poignant if it was ever actually brought up. And I find it odd that Carlos saying "She's not like you" somehow implies that grim, unhappy Clem isn't traumatized herself.
Ironically by making Sarah kinda an alternate version of S1 Clem, they gave them a shitload in common to talk about. I found it amusing both… more Clem and Sarah have a doctor for a parent. And I find it odd that Sarah, someone completely dependent on her dad, never asks Clementine, someone younger than her, what happened to her parents.
Sarah never asks what Clem what she does for fun or what she wants (or wanted) to be when she grew up. Even if you accept this a PTSD Clem who is now joyless, it'd be interesting to see her admit she use to like drawing a lot when she was a little younger and maybe had dreams before the ZA. Sarah could have asked about Clem's haircut, and from there lead into a conversation about possibly cutting Sarah's hair, for practical reasons or even fun.
The writing staff didn't need a keen insight into young women to see these things, they were perfectly obvious. It's not like you needed a scene where Sarah gets her p… [view original content]
I had no idea that her mom was a doctor or dad was an engineer.
When you're moving the desk in A New Day, you can ask her what her parents do for a living. Funny you mention you never heard that because I think I just realized something myself. On my first play through I was holding out hope Clem's mom was alive. Her dad sounded like a goner, but we never heard her mom die, and the phones probably went out for good after that so we don't know what happened.
And one of the reasons I thought Clem's mom was alive was because she was a DOCTOR. Which is like pure gold in a zombie apocalypse. If there were any survivors at where she was at, she'd be seen as a valuable asset to good or bad people. So I'm thinking there's a good chance Diana is still out there. I even told Clem on the train I wanted to look for her parents. But it never occurred to me it was almost entirely because of one little piece of information that most people didn't even get.
Maybe the title cards for Season 1 should have read "The game tailors YOU based on how you play!" I think I fought Kenny on the train because I was still mad at Lilly for stealing the R.V. And I think I didn't get mad at Ben when he confesses (on the train, not Crawford) because I already got all my aggression out on Kenny.
It'd be interesting if we did learn more about Clem's relationship with her parents, or any more details from her childhood (beyond her appa… morerently treating Sandra like a 'secret sister' - why didn't she do the same with Sarah?). I had no idea that her mom was a doctor or dad was an engineer.
Lee was very important to her, yes, but that's mainly because the players remember being him. Clementine had a life outside of being his surrogate daughter. You might justify her not wanting to talk about the past as it being too painful, but it's harder to really understand Clem's loss if we didn't even know what she had to lose beyond Lee and her parents. There's that whole mess with Omid's death causing Christa's baby to die, but Clem doesn't seem to have repressed the memory so much as forgotten about it entirely.
Sarah apparently suffers from PTSD - I assume this might have meant she saw her mother die horribly. This'd be more poignant if … [view original content]
When I first heard the phone message my genre savviness kicked in and I wrote them off for dead. Only for Katjaa to later make me feel horrible for writing them off so quickly. :P
Even if Sarah was very sheltered, I think it'd have been interesting if she had learned a few medical techniques from her dad. Imagine if she was the one responsible for helping Rebecca give birth successfully - it's no less ludicrous than a fisherman whose only credentials entailed watching his veterinarian wife give birth. Or if she was able to help the group understand what to do with Arvo's medicine, even if she was horrified at what Clem did to obtain the meds in the first place.
I had no idea that her mom was a doctor or dad was an engineer.
When you're moving the desk in A New Day, you can ask her what her p… morearents do for a living. Funny you mention you never heard that because I think I just realized something myself. On my first play through I was holding out hope Clem's mom was alive. Her dad sounded like a goner, but we never heard her mom die, and the phones probably went out for good after that so we don't know what happened.
And one of the reasons I thought Clem's mom was alive was because she was a DOCTOR. Which is like pure gold in a zombie apocalypse. If there were any survivors at where she was at, she'd be seen as a valuable asset to good or bad people. So I'm thinking there's a good chance Diana is still out there. I even told Clem on the train I wanted to look for her parents. But it never occurred to me it was almost entirely because of one little piece of information that most people didn't… [view original content]
I know you were joking.
Oh... umm... well I feel like an idiot. My bad. ^^;;;
What you said just made me think of Carver suspe… morending Clem and Sarah over a shark tank before laughingly maniacally and just walking out the door. =D
Clementine: Do you expect me to beg?
Carver: No, Clementine. I expect you to die!
Or if she was able to help the group understand what to do with Arvo's medicine, even if she was horrified at what Clem did to obtain the meds in the first place.
I do like the visual image of Clem and Jane robbing Arvo, then having no fucking clue which pills do what.
Clem - "So which pills do we give to Rebecca?"
Jane - studying the labels "Ummmmmmm..."
Clem - "You don't know?"
Jane - "Well... one of them is probably the one we need."
Clem - (-_-)
I'd like to see the Sarah conversation as a series of dialogue choices akin to navigating a mental minefield. If Sarah is alive, you have to pick what you say to her very carefully because certain things set her off and she gets too upset to help. Something as simple as asking her if Carlos ever taught her medicine would set her off because you mentioned her dad.
It'd also be clever if Jane suggests one of Arvo's drugs could actually help Sarah. Obviously there's not a pill to cure massive trauma, but something like a low dosage of a sleeping pill might help her relax just enough to function better until they find somewhere safer. That actually would have really tempted me to rob Arvo since I was really worried about Sarah.
If you convince Sarah to look at the drugs, you could get the option afterwards to offer her something. Like half a sleeping pill to relax her. Then Sarah asks for a full dose because she'd rather just go to sleep for a while. And if you give her the full dose, she gets eaten during the Walker attack unless you tell Mike to grab her.
Oh, but then the episode potentially might run over ninety minutes, and we all know how that nearly sank Season 1...
When I first heard the phone message my genre savviness kicked in and I wrote them off for dead. Only for Katjaa to later make me feel horr… moreible for writing them off so quickly. :P
Even if Sarah was very sheltered, I think it'd have been interesting if she had learned a few medical techniques from her dad. Imagine if she was the one responsible for helping Rebecca give birth successfully - it's no less ludicrous than a fisherman whose only credentials entailed watching his veterinarian wife give birth. Or if she was able to help the group understand what to do with Arvo's medicine, even if she was horrified at what Clem did to obtain the meds in the first place.
The problem with robbing Arvo is that there really isn't any penalty for NOT robbing him. The welfare of your group is in no way impacted by you refusing to find supplies for them, just like how there's no consequence to Mike leaving behind water bottles OR the group letting themselves starve for several days and Rebecca still dying no matter what you do.
I dunno, I felt really disconnected from the group and so it was pretty easy for me to just judge threatening and assaulting a disabled kid as wrong.
Or if she was able to help the group understand what to do with Arvo's medicine, even if she was horrified at what Clem did to obtain the me… moreds in the first place.
I do like the visual image of Clem and Jane robbing Arvo, then having no fucking clue which pills do what.
* Clem - "So which pills do we give to Rebecca?"
* Jane - studying the labels "Ummmmmmm..."
* Clem - "You don't know?"
* Jane - "Well... one of them is probably the one we need."
* Clem - (-_-)
I'd like to see the Sarah conversation as a series of dialogue choices akin to navigating a mental minefield. If Sarah is alive, you have to pick what you say to her very carefully because certain things set her off and she gets too upset to help. Something as simple as asking her if Carlos ever taught her medicine would set her off because you mentioned her dad.
It'd also be clever if Jane suggests one of Arvo's drugs could actually help Sarah. Obviously there's… [view original content]
TBH, I left her behind first chance we got.. I didn't find her annoying, but as was stated earlier, she didn't have a chance to survive and sooner she was gone, better for the rest of us.
I replayed Season 2 and for the life of me I can not understand why people dislike Sarah so much, especially when she saves your ass in episode one. If she hadn't gotten disinfectant for Clem's arm she would've died. She has done nothing malicious to you at all and her only crime was that she was kind and a bit naïve. Sarah could've been a great character with tons of character development but the writers were too short-sighted and lazy to do that.
Comments
don't label bro,
Labels are just ways to group people.
Ellie vs David?
Technically it did. If Sarah didn't Panic, Carlos wouldn't of stopped to talk to Clementine, to delay him from moving, so he would have avoided being shot.
I ain't ever played The Last Of Us, but regardless of similarities I think a stand-off against Carver would have been much more fun than Kenny's stupid deathmatch with Jane.
As for Carver's stupidity, remember that his entire community isn't that smart. They freak out once he's gone ("Where's Bill? We need him up here!"), start wasting all of their ammo on spraying blindly, send only one guy to turn off the music, and don't even watch their backs, allowing for zombies to somehow magically teleport onto the roof and eat them.
She is, if she had survived, the future of humanity(every kid is precious in a Z-A if you want humanity to survive), and i personally blame Carlos for not exposing her to danger so she could get used to it, every little step at a time
You're scenario was a lot like TLOU's David and Ellie sequence is all. But I do agree a duke off between Carver and Clem could have been very interesting. They would have had to have worked Carver as something other than an imbecile who, by some unfathomable act of God, got placed in his seat of power before it would have been that tantalizing. Though, to be honest, by the end there really was no ending which would have been worth my time throughout the rest of the 4 and a half episodes. (Obviously the story would have changed if Carver was even at the end, but the writing would have still likely been as faulted and ridiculous if they decided to keep him around or not.)
What better way to make an 11 year old girl appear smart and capable than to make everyone else stupid as shit and incapable of/uninterested in doing minor tasks? It's like putting light grey next to black and seeing white. Really sucks when you look at it individually....
That lends itself well to a callback to the beginning of the game. Where Clem is trying to escape that guy in the woods, and no matter what she does, it seems like she can't get away. If Carver vs. Clem was the final battle, you could have a reprise of that kind of struggle, but with Clem actually winning this time by using the things she's learned since the beginning of the game. Of course, that means Clem would need to learn stuff too. =P
They probably could have done that if they were smarter about when to use Carver's character. He only appears in two episodes, so I say drop him from A House Divided. Like I said, no reason the actual leader of such a big community should be running around in the woods alone, even if it was personal for him. Give him a big introduction in Harm's Way and let him be the focal point of that episode. Then he's "defeated" by the heroes who escape. He's missing from Amid the Ruins, but makes a big comeback at the end of No Going Back where he's trying to personally claim A.J. for himself.
That's still just two episodes of voice work. You could replace Arvo and the Russians with people from Howe's who've come after the group. That way you still feel Carver's presence even when he's missing from episode four. And that would add some urgency to getting away if everyone knew Carver is still out there. It would actually make Kenny's non-stop insistence to leave right now more understandable, especially when you remember Carver's people completely ruined his life at the lodge.
Personally I don't have a problem with them ditching Carver and Howe's when they did because it just amounted to another "Bad Guy Camp", and the Walking Dead has done those to death. Even S1 was guilty of it. Every time our "heroes" get a little too morally gray, here comes a great big group of assholes to make them look better. And anyone in the asshole camp who's not evil themselves will either die at the hands of the assholes or switch sides to the heroes. Howe's was a textbook case. Reggie was the sacrificial non-asshole, and Bonnie the non-asshole who realizes everyone else was a bunch of assholes. Everyone else we see is toting around rifles at all god damn times to make it clear their violent assholes, except Becca, but we already knew she was an asshole. =P
I much would have preferred a much more morally grey area with Howe's. I talked about in my Lilly post that bad people can actually do good things, but only for selfish reasons. Howe's could have been the place to explore that concept. I was actually writing a really big post, but I think I've gone off topic enough. Short version, people are willing to tolerate some evil, if they're getting enough in return, and there situations is dire enough. If Howe's kept it's prisoners fed, then it might not seem so bad living in a prison then dying out in a wasteland. Least not till the day the warden decides your use is at an end.
That would be more impressive yes, that Troy walks up and says Carver wants you dead so, BLAM
That would be something, maybe an inhaler would help
I didn't end up saving Sarah, but it wasn't because I didn't try. I tried, and she didn't respond. I didn't think I could hang out any longer to get her out of her funk. It was as simple, and as sad, as that.
I think people have strong dislike of Sarah precisely because they couldn't save her, and because many felt she never really had a fighting chance. Sarah represents innocence, and people generally want to protect innocence. When you can't protect innocence, precisely because the situation makes traits associated with innocence (childish joy, vulnerability, imagination vs. practicality) into a liability, people turn on the traits they originally wanted to protect. But ultimately, traits that aren't useful for survival (childish joy, vulnerability, wonder, etc.) are traits that make life more than just drudgery. So being unable to protect these things, feeling like these things never really even had a shot of making it - that is really frustrating / angering, and cause people to turn on those traits. Which then leads to a feeling of guilt, which deepens the turn against those traits.
I didn't dislike Sarah. I just wanted to survive because I want to turn the world back around so that it would be safe for innocent people again.
[Claps]
I would've revamped In Harm's Way entirely. This is, of course, speaking from the privilege of unlimited budget and no time constraint:
It's been discussed on this forum before that Clementine and co. essentially doomed an entire community of innocent people in a short-sighted attempt to escape. While this is an interesting moral grey, it's never actually brought up within the narrative itself and feels rather morally myopic as a result. If there was more of an effort to establish empathy with members of Howe's, or at least providing us a connection with their humanity, than perhaps the episode would have been more compelling than simple Good Prisoners vs. Evil Captors.
People bemoaned the cameos of the 400 Days characters as poorly-implemented, and they were. But at the same time they proved, at least to me, that the majority of the community were essentially decent people who'd hardened as a result of spending years in a paranoid situation. Russell, for example, had to be convinced that his grandmother was at Howe's in order to follow Tavia. What if we got to see members of Carver's community who weren't guards - grandparents, children, the weak and sickly? Even if he's creepily obsessed with brainwashing and indoctrinating people, Carver's insane philosophy didn't seem to have been brought to the same stupid impractical extent that Crawford's was.
So let's get rid of Reggie, the disposable hostage who gets dismissed as having Stockholm Syndrome and is proven wrong by the fact that he gets killed. Let's not use weak-willed, flip-flopping Bonnie as a turncoat. Let's develop the role of Tavia as an example of a person who supports the community - let's try to make her a reasonable yet strict co-leader of the group who provides insight into the challenges of preparing for winter and fighting off bandit attacks. Let's develop her as an antagonist who's more sympathetic than simply apathetic. WHY is she complicit with Carver's mistreatment of the prisoners? If we were given reason to understand her, then perhaps we could see Howe's as more than just a group of jerks.
Clementine herself would have a little more rein to explore Howe's, seeing as Carver would've encountered her as just a stranger who was unlucky enough to have been "misled" by the escapees. Instead, he'd use her as a spy, spending days working with the prisoners and being forced to report to Carver each night. Rather than be a grade-school bully, he'd portray himself as a concerned father whose hand has been forced, and he'd talk on and on about the prisoners' misdeeds. He'd force Clem to see firsthand the victims of zombie attacks and bandit raids, trying to show her the necessity of strength rather than just giving her tough talk. More than anything, he doesn't actually respect Clem - he's just sweet-talking her because he assumes she's just a little kid.
He uses Troy, a desperately insecure and disrespected man, as a way to avoid getting his hands dirty. I mentioned before the possibility of him allowing Troy to sexually abuse Sarah at the greenhouse - this is an evil act that, at the same time, isn't as blatantly ridiculous as throwing a man off a roof in front of little kids in broad daylight. Troy is allowed free rein to abuse the prisoners in order to avoid having him turn his sociopathic tendencies on 'innocent' members. When Luke is captured and his complicity in sabotaging the community is discovered (the radio would be replaced with a pipe-bomb), Nick offers himself up in order to save his friend - Troy is directed to amputate his hand. He eventually immures Clem and Sarah in Carver's office, but is distracted by another bandit attack and leaves just long enough for the girls to escape.
At the end of In Harm's Way, Troy is the guy who tries to stop the prisoners from escaping during the chaos and Clem gets the drop on him. Here, the survivors decide his fate. Clem can either shoot him wherever she wants, Carver would demand that he castrate Troy, Rebecca would want him shot in the head, Nick'd want his arms shot off...you get the idea. If Sarah or Luke are allowed to decide his fate, they'll simply want him tied up and left to the mercy of the zombies.
Amid The Ruins would focus on Clem aligning with a group of bandits who bear a grudge against Carver, with Tavia leading the group that is out seeking revenge against the prisoners who effectively destroyed her home.
You didn't try hard enough lol.
One of the biggest themes in this series is that "the world will never be good again." Or, if you're cynical/realistic, "the world never was good to begin with." There's no point in justifying the death of innocent people as being acceptable because of a hypothetically better future, because there WON'T BE a better future if everybody keeps letting innocent people die without even trying. You can't let people like Sarah die because "you want to turn the world back around so it'd be safe for innocent people again", that attitude would never change the world.
LOL!!!
I did try to save her (as was clearly stated). I was playing through for the first time, no prior information. I didn't know that staying longer would have helped or gotten me killed. So in my opinion, your argument is invalid.
I like your enthusiasm tho.
He didn't stop nor did he even slow down.
He wasn't spraying and praying blindly. By that logic, you might as well blame Nick for getting himself shot.
Please give an example that he is delusional. Is he under extreme stress? Yes. Is he suffering from terrible loss? Yes. Does he strike out when angered? Yes. Did he ever murder anyone? Please point to one person that he killed that was not a murderer, or perceived as a murderer (in Jane's case). Beating up the Russian kid? I would have done the same thing, he jumped the group with guns, and later proved to be a piece of shit when shooting Clementine proving Kenny was right about him. Also you accused Kenny of being a pedophile. Please post an example of this.
So you didn't try [Convince Sarah] or [Slap Sarah]? The game doesn't actually give you that many options.
Then again, I might be too cynical about how little danger Clementine is actually put in.
The moral tunnel vision pissed me off too, especially because it felt very deliberate. It's like in Star Wars when the Empire blows up a peaceful planet just so you won't give a shit about the millions that died on the Death Star later. But the difference is that's Star Wars, it's fantasy escapism personified, nothing about it is trying to resemble reality, it's just crazy adventures for fun's sake. The Walking Dead is suppose to be all about "realism" and "pessimism" and "people making hard choices" but then they always throw out the bad guy group to avoid the moral conundrums.
I saw someone in the "Details you may have missed" thread post a blueprint of Howe's pulled form somewhere. One of the sections on the map is labeled "nursery". Wow, I wonder how many babies our "heroes" murdered? Oh well, more formula for A.J. in the end. =P
I for one didn't attempt to [Convince Sarah] because the more time we spent, the greater the risk to us. Like with Luke on the Ice, after he fell through, i did try a few time to crack open the ice but I quit before Clem fell through. It was just too risky so I watched him sink.
They were both generally good people that didn't deserve what happened, but how far must one go to try to help? How close to death do we have to reach before we can say we really tried? Clem told Sarah several times to get up. When the option to get out arrived, I took it. My Clem deserves to live too.. I tried with Luke, but not to the point of falling in and risk drowning. Clem deserves to live too.
Again, this would have been interesting had the characters even acknowledged any doubts about whether it was right to get everybody at Howe's killed. Bonnie in particular doesn't seem to have any regrets about betraying people she's lived with for years.
Yet another perfect use for Sarah. Have her express concerns during the planning scene. Asking what'll happen to all the other people at Howe's who aren't mean like Carver and Troy? Raising the point that Howe's actually kept her safe for a long time and she didn't do anything bad to others when she lived here before. And since this happens after she gets beaten, it would really exemplify how much she cares for others, yet their could also be some room for doubt in her intentions since she might just be afraid to get in trouble again.
You could even explore her objection with Clem's dialogue options. Questioning Sarah's motives and asking whenever it's really the others she's worried about or herself getting punished? You could try to convince her of the necessity of leaving, telling what happened to Reggie will probably happen to her at some point. Or even agree with her, saying that even though you want to escape, it's not right to endanger everyone at Howe's just because of what Carver is doing.
Oh but what am I saying? A game where a young girl questions the morality of others in a dire survival situation, adding a layer of complexity to situations that might seem more cut and dry otherwise? Who the fuck would play that?
Exactly my reasoning WowMutt. My Clem felt obligated to help if she could, but not obligated to die trying to help.
Nope. I tried to get her to go, she wouldn't, people were hurrying out, Zombies were flooding in, and she still wasn't moving. So I left. Without knowing at the time that [Convince Sarah] or [Slap Sarah] were choices, I can honestly say that I tried to save her but it didn't work. I did think waiting longer would have gotten me killed. I wanted to play all the way through without dying if possible.
Oh... umm... well I feel like an idiot. My bad. ^^;;;
Clementine: Do you expect me to beg?
Carver: No, Clementine. I expect you to die!
Like many, I'm also typing up my version of Season 2. I kept some similarities in In Harm's Way. But it's mainly different and I was trying to focus on Carver's Ep2 personality. When I looked at the Carlos scene, Carver is cruel but uses people emotions like it's all a game to him if they done wrong to him.
So in the beat down scene(still in planning), when Carver learns their plan(pushed to his limits of patience) to rebel he forces Clem to make a choice. He has Troy aim his gun at her and other gaurds aim at the rest except Luke and Kenny which Carver will deal with. Carver forces Clem to choose who he will punish or they all die. Carver will punish the one you choose.
Who did you choose for Carver to punish? Luke or Kenny?
Luke: Luke will get shot in the leg and lose a few fingers. Luke will understand as it was a tough situation for Clem.
Kenny: Kenny will get his eye badly damaged, almost beaten to death. Kenny would feel like Clem betrayed him.
Basically not only is Carver is not only playing the characters' emotions but also the player's too. Cruelty mixed with emotional manipulation. I won't go in full detail of how I want Carver to be completely, but it's getting there. I also have him go out in a scavenge hunt with Clem, teaching her things and explaining things of how he feels, ever since the Cabin's group escape, the death of George during their betrayal he's had a hard time trusting people. He's a bit schizophrenic because of it. He can be kind but if angered he's very dangerous.
We could've also had more insight into what Carver told Sarah after murdering Reggie right in front of her. Or what he said to Rebecca that made her cry. We see all these conversations that Clem never gets to understand, and it alienates us from the characters as a result.
But I still think Reggie as a character is unnecessary, because he exists mainly to make Carver seem "evil" - because apparently torturing a father and murdering a good guy in the previous episode wasn't already evil enough - and his loyalty to Carver is rendered stupid BECAUSE he gets murdered by him. I was thinking about having a supporter of Carver who wasn't dumb, violent or traitorous, and Tavia would be a good example. She seemed like a decent person during her 5-minute cameo in 400 Days - what if she retained that personality by the time Clem meets her?
Which is made all the more face palm worthy that Season 1 was notable in letting you TALK to people, and be involved with them, if you wanted to be. I remember how annoyed I was in A House Divided after the bridge scene, Sarah is just sitting on the ground next to Rebecca and Alvin, but there's no talk option. Then later in the lodge, she's decorating the Christmas tree, and still no talk option. Just Sarita, who just wants to talk about Kenny. At Howe's when you can look around, you can talk to Sarah but she says she's trying to be good for Reggie and stay quiet. Then next morning she actually does want to talk but now Clem can't talk because Carver is babbling on about whatever the fuck he's on about it. It's like the game was just trying to piss me off for wanting to make a connection with any of the characters. -_-
Something something no control something something you're supposed to feel frustrated.
Ugh. The hub sequences in Episode 4 seem to have been a direct response to Episode 3 not allowing you to talk much, but even then the writers didn't really know what to have the characters say to Clem. Particularly when it's writing dialogue between two young girls.
I dunno, maybe they should get a woman writer for one of Season 3's episodes.
Ironically by making Sarah kinda an alternate version of S1 Clem, they gave them a shitload in common to talk about. I found it amusing both Clem and Sarah have a doctor for a parent. And I find it odd that Sarah, someone completely dependent on her dad, never asks Clementine, someone younger than her, what happened to her parents.
Sarah never asks what Clem what she does for fun or what she wants (or wanted) to be when she grew up. Even if you accept this a PTSD Clem who is now joyless, it'd be interesting to see her admit she use to like drawing a lot when she was a little younger and maybe had dreams before the ZA. Sarah could have asked about Clem's haircut, and from there lead into a conversation about possibly cutting Sarah's hair, for practical reasons or even fun.
The writing staff didn't need a keen insight into young women to see these things, they were perfectly obvious. It's not like you needed a scene where Sarah gets her period and she and Clem have a conversation about that. All though, that could actually be interesting, since it could led to a bigger conversation about their age difference, and Clem wondering what the future has in store for her or even wondering if she'll live long enough to have a future. Also be amusing in that it would be one conversation where the target audience (young men) would be nearly as ignorant of the topic as Clementine would be.
Exactly.. And Jane was the last to get out after helping Clem, I was worried Jane would get her leg bitten as it were.. If I tried longer to help Sarah, that could have cost us Jane. After seeing others play through, I realized I was only 1 hit away from falling through the Ice to save Luke. Obviously Clem survives that, but in the moment on my first play through, there's no way to know that.
It'd be interesting if we did learn more about Clem's relationship with her parents, or any more details from her childhood (beyond her apparently treating Sandra like a 'secret sister' - why didn't she do the same with Sarah?). I had no idea that her mom was a doctor or dad was an engineer.
Lee was very important to her, yes, but that's mainly because the players remember being him. Clementine had a life outside of being his surrogate daughter. You might justify her not wanting to talk about the past as it being too painful, but it's harder to really understand Clem's loss if we didn't even know what she had to lose beyond Lee and her parents. There's that whole mess with Omid's death causing Christa's baby to die, but Clem doesn't seem to have repressed the memory so much as forgotten about it entirely.
Sarah apparently suffers from PTSD - I assume this might have meant she saw her mother die horribly. This'd be more poignant if it was ever actually brought up. And I find it odd that Carlos saying "She's not like you" somehow implies that grim, unhappy Clem isn't traumatized herself.
When you're moving the desk in A New Day, you can ask her what her parents do for a living. Funny you mention you never heard that because I think I just realized something myself. On my first play through I was holding out hope Clem's mom was alive. Her dad sounded like a goner, but we never heard her mom die, and the phones probably went out for good after that so we don't know what happened.
And one of the reasons I thought Clem's mom was alive was because she was a DOCTOR. Which is like pure gold in a zombie apocalypse. If there were any survivors at where she was at, she'd be seen as a valuable asset to good or bad people. So I'm thinking there's a good chance Diana is still out there. I even told Clem on the train I wanted to look for her parents. But it never occurred to me it was almost entirely because of one little piece of information that most people didn't even get.
Maybe the title cards for Season 1 should have read "The game tailors YOU based on how you play!" I think I fought Kenny on the train because I was still mad at Lilly for stealing the R.V. And I think I didn't get mad at Ben when he confesses (on the train, not Crawford) because I already got all my aggression out on Kenny.
When I first heard the phone message my genre savviness kicked in and I wrote them off for dead. Only for Katjaa to later make me feel horrible for writing them off so quickly. :P
Even if Sarah was very sheltered, I think it'd have been interesting if she had learned a few medical techniques from her dad. Imagine if she was the one responsible for helping Rebecca give birth successfully - it's no less ludicrous than a fisherman whose only credentials entailed watching his veterinarian wife give birth. Or if she was able to help the group understand what to do with Arvo's medicine, even if she was horrified at what Clem did to obtain the meds in the first place.
Sarah: Would it help if I beg?
Carver: No.
I do like the visual image of Clem and Jane robbing Arvo, then having no fucking clue which pills do what.
I'd like to see the Sarah conversation as a series of dialogue choices akin to navigating a mental minefield. If Sarah is alive, you have to pick what you say to her very carefully because certain things set her off and she gets too upset to help. Something as simple as asking her if Carlos ever taught her medicine would set her off because you mentioned her dad.
It'd also be clever if Jane suggests one of Arvo's drugs could actually help Sarah. Obviously there's not a pill to cure massive trauma, but something like a low dosage of a sleeping pill might help her relax just enough to function better until they find somewhere safer. That actually would have really tempted me to rob Arvo since I was really worried about Sarah.
If you convince Sarah to look at the drugs, you could get the option afterwards to offer her something. Like half a sleeping pill to relax her. Then Sarah asks for a full dose because she'd rather just go to sleep for a while. And if you give her the full dose, she gets eaten during the Walker attack unless you tell Mike to grab her.
Oh, but then the episode potentially might run over ninety minutes, and we all know how that nearly sank Season 1...
The problem with robbing Arvo is that there really isn't any penalty for NOT robbing him. The welfare of your group is in no way impacted by you refusing to find supplies for them, just like how there's no consequence to Mike leaving behind water bottles OR the group letting themselves starve for several days and Rebecca still dying no matter what you do.
I dunno, I felt really disconnected from the group and so it was pretty easy for me to just judge threatening and assaulting a disabled kid as wrong.
I was kinda glad I had the chance to leave her behind. She annoyed me so much.
TBH, I left her behind first chance we got.. I didn't find her annoying, but as was stated earlier, she didn't have a chance to survive and sooner she was gone, better for the rest of us.
I replayed Season 2 and for the life of me I can not understand why people dislike Sarah so much, especially when she saves your ass in episode one. If she hadn't gotten disinfectant for Clem's arm she would've died. She has done nothing malicious to you at all and her only crime was that she was kind and a bit naïve. Sarah could've been a great character with tons of character development but the writers were too short-sighted and lazy to do that.