Ignore all the hate you get, they can't respect an opinion.
Some opinions don't deserve respect when they are demonstrably false and riddled with logical holes. "I hate Sarah" is one thing. Creating this narrative of complete bullshit and being needlessly insulting the whole time is another. This is exactly why I went on that rant awhile back about how some opinions are pretty obviously stupid. People keep trying to create this impenetrable shield of dumbfuckery around the word "opinion", and it ain't gonna happen. That is NOT how opinions work. You say something, you better be ready for the retorts. Welcome to real life.
I once said I hated Sarah on another thread (I was being nice and giving my honest opinion) then somebody just goes out and says what I did was "rude"
Regardless of how you acted in that thread, I remember you making a post of a similar nature while calling Sarah a pretty disgusting term, which was enough for me to write you off as a dickhead, especially in my post-episode 3 frustration. I've calmed down a bit since then, and for the record, I don't dislike you, but that bit of anger was not my fault, but the fault of your own word choices. My point is, maybe the way you see things isn't as easy as all that cut and dry "I was nice, they were mean" stuff. We all frame situations in our favor before really thinking about those situations.
Ah, nice. Good to see another Sarah hater in this community. I hated being one of the only few. Ignore all the hate you get, they can't resp… moreect an opinion. It's bullshit, I know. I learn to ignore them because they aren't worth my time however. It really does suck when you're hated for having an opinion, it's not a good feeling. I mean, I know this is the internet and all and it's a well known fact that opinions are always looked down upon regardless of what they are, but it doesn't give others a reason to hate on that individual for even having an opinion in the first place. I mean, it's called an Opinion for a reason. I once said I hated Sarah on another thread (I was being nice and giving my honest opinion) then somebody just goes out and says what I did was "rude". I still don't understand to this day how it was rude, but whatever. I wish I understood what goes through their minds sometimes. It still pisses me off however when somebody ca… [view original content]
I think the point of Jane's story wasn't that anyone should WANT Sarah to die but that Sarah didn't want to live in the world that the Walking Dead's Earth had become and they couldn't save her unless she wanted to live.
And her behavior was of someone who was willing to die rather than make the changes necessary to survive.
Which I think is **** but that's what I think they were going for.
Unlike some, you're not an asshole about it. Or at least I haven't seen you be one. Which is why I have respect for you.
It's mainly because it's an opinion in the minority. Some people view Sarah as an innocent child, which in general, she was. When people see you saying "I don't like Sarah" their immediate reaction is "omg how dare you why would you hate an innocent girl" that's mostly why people defend her. Because in peoples eyes, she's innocent. And that might not even be the reason why you hate her.
I usually get defensive when people don't bring up any valid points if they're trying to argue about the character. People that say "Sarah was a crybaby bitch she needed to grow up" is the reason why others are at your throats. They insult the character, trashing them like it's nothing. They don't even bother to empathize. Which is called having an irrational opinion and which is why people usually defend. Then you have those exact people doing the same to another character they don't like.
For example, Jane. I, for one, extremely hate her. I obviously don't mind if you like her, after all, it's your opinion. But, at least I've empathized with her. I could see where she was coming from during the argument with Kenny and the fight scene. There was just a lot of cons along with it, hence why I don't go vocal and say "JANE IS A FUCKING WHORE SCREW HER" and etc. Because I know that people like her character. And I'm not going to trash them to make other people feel angry and shit. It's just when people start to lie and say "Jane cared for everyone in the group" or something like that, and spread it like it's from Obama's mouth or something. Which then, you have the right to call them out for it.
Don't know what I'm getting at, to be honest. Probably just, "respect others' opinions, and it'll be returned in the same way" I don't know, something corny like that.
Ah, nice. Good to see another Sarah hater in this community. I hated being one of the only few. Ignore all the hate you get, they can't resp… moreect an opinion. It's bullshit, I know. I learn to ignore them because they aren't worth my time however. It really does suck when you're hated for having an opinion, it's not a good feeling. I mean, I know this is the internet and all and it's a well known fact that opinions are always looked down upon regardless of what they are, but it doesn't give others a reason to hate on that individual for even having an opinion in the first place. I mean, it's called an Opinion for a reason. I once said I hated Sarah on another thread (I was being nice and giving my honest opinion) then somebody just goes out and says what I did was "rude". I still don't understand to this day how it was rude, but whatever. I wish I understood what goes through their minds sometimes. It still pisses me off however when somebody ca… [view original content]
Yeah! I hear ya! And fuck that worthless little bitch Clementine too! Complains about using a gun and even cutting her hair. Your mom's dead… more moron she doesn't give a fuck about your hair anymore! Lee's trying to save your worthless ass. Bitch sees walkers coming and she just sits there crying like a baby. Fucking Ben of all people know you fucking RUN when that happens. Way to murder Chuck chicken shit! Then she betrays the entire group to talk to a weirdo over the radio, lies about it, then, even after everyone tells her not to keeping talking to him, she runs off into the arms off an obvious kidnapper because she misses her obviously long dead mommy and daddy. Grow the fuck up you stupid shit! Way to fuck over the entire group you selfish brat! Lee protected your ass for FUCKING MONTHS and you believe a weirdo on the radio over him? Because of you Vernon got the boat, Lee got bitten, Ben determinately dies, Kenny nearly dies. If anyone had … [view original content]
Well, you can't save Sarah.
Sarah won't let herself be saved.
Though, at the end, there wasn't much which could be done.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
I think the point of Jane's story wasn't that anyone should WANT Sarah to die but that Sarah didn't want to live in the world that the Walki… moreng Dead's Earth had become and they couldn't save her unless she wanted to live.
And her behavior was of someone who was willing to die rather than make the changes necessary to survive.
Which I think is **** but that's what I think they were going for.
And in her first death she actually looks up and says Clementine's name as their leaving, like she just realized what was happening. They never sold me on Sarah being suicidal. Least not in the short time frame we see of her after Carlos dies. I could definitely see that happening later, but the moment in the trailer park just seemed like she wanted to be isolated, which is pretty common for people grieving. And she's suffering shock so bad she's not thinking of the danger she's in.
I really think originally that was suppose to be a Nick scene. He seemed suicidally depressed and Luke's presence there would make it more personal for him and comparing Nick to Jamie fits better than with Sarah since we've already heard Nick talk about giving up before because he's so distraught at the world.
The problem I have with the Walking Dead game franchise is that there is just so much DEATH. Almost everybody dies. The pattern for both seasons is this: find a big group at the start - watch them die horribly one by one - be left with only a pitiful shadow of that former group remaining, in the form of one or two people. It's gotten to the point where I'm just like "why bother?" since you begin to realize that they're just gonna die anyway, and your actions don't mean much at all in the long run. Even though I desperately want them to live.
I just hope Season 3 will be different, and the choice you make will actually matter and build up to something in the end, instead of being left with nothing.
So you don't actually care about these people, you assume they will die eventually anyways, but you're still going through the motions to he… morelp them just cause...
I'd say that's weird, but sadly that's pretty consistent with any part of the The Walking Dead franchise that wasn't Season 1 of the game. So, all right, my bad, least you're consistent in your approach. I guess I'm at fault. After playing the first season of the game I thought we were suppose to struggle to define our humanity in the absolute worst of times or some shit. But I guess the appeal of the series was just the traditional horror movie game of guessing which characters die and in what order.
Very likely she had some form of anxiety disorder or autism spectrum disorder beforehand. Carlos thought the way to prevent her from breaking down would be to shelter her.
Death in itself isn't the problem, least not for me. I can still replay Season 1, which I've played over a dozen times now, and still feel a swell of emotions despite knowing all the outcomes because the story does such an excellent job making me care about the characters. They have a degree of depth and presence that when coupled with the excellent performances of their voice actors, makes you forget their really just lines of code synced with prerecorded dialogue and makes you actually think of them as people. And, like you said in your post, we as a species care about people.
Kenny in season one in particular felt like a real person for all the good and bad that entails. On the train when you have to talk him down you find out he still feels guilty about Shawn Greene. Months later he's still thinking about the red shirt character who we knew for at most twenty minutes, and that's because S1 Kenny was written as if he was a real person. A real person wouldn't just forget seeing someone else's son be eaten alive while he was desperately cradling his own son in his arms. And Kenny carries that guilt all the way to the very end when he refuses to leave Ben behind, probably because he sees it as his way of atoning for leaving Shawn.
And that was just one aspect of S1 Kenny, and he was just one character, and he wasn't even the main character! I was actually going to go through the variable myriad of emotions we see out of him in season one, but it's not even necessary. Just think about how the S1 cast respond to finding the kid in the attic or the couple in the bed who shot themselves. People they had never met, knew nothing about, and had been long dead before they even found them, and they still care, they all care, they care a lot actually. The kid in particular. They even bury him, something they never could do for their own loved ones because of circumstances, but in doing so for this person you see that they would have liked to.
The bulk of the S2 cast don't feel like people because they don't seem to give a shit about anything. And it's not because they've desensitized to it. Kenny during Around Every Corner was becoming desensitized to death. Eagerly writing off people like Molly and Omid even though they've helped him just so he can get to his goal faster. Most of the cabin crew just kinda wander from spot to spot. The don't care when people they're supposedly friends with dies, they don't think about possible danger they may face, they don't even seem that motivated to do anything at all really.
They escaped from Howe's, but they're leaving the cabin really isn't felt as all that urgent afterwards. It's treated more like a camping trip. There's no real sense of panic or concern when Clem sees Carver's people in the distance. Just a comment from Carlos to leave in the morning. How about leaving someone on watch tonight? Or just leave right not even? Once they're recaptured they don't seem all that worried either, even telling Kenny to calm down. If it wasn't that bad, why'd they leave to begin with? These people aren't people, their just props in a zombie theme park ride.
Luke in particular pisses me off. He goes from cheerily carrying Clem, to dropping her on the dirt and angrily telling her he won't carry her as if she had tricked him, to getting misty eyed about a possibly made up dog Clem killed, and this is his introduction! What the fuck is this guy's motivation? He volunteers Clem to clear a dangerous bridge just for fun and doesn't even bother to give her a gun in case she gets overwhelmed. He seems baffled by the notion of shooting the insane murderous dictator who's killed and tortured several of his friends and pursued them relentlessly last time he escaped. He also seems more passionate about defending his need to fuck Jane then seeing both his childhood friend and a scared teenage girl die horribly. I was glad when he finally drowned so I wouldn't have to try and decipher is bafflingly inconsistent behavior anymore.
Sarah and Nick are popular with some by sheer virtue that they actually seem to act like people do, or at least close enough in comparison to the rest of the S2 cast. This is in spite having no actual impact on the story. But you actually get the idea they give a shit, because they actually react to the stuff around them. Nick is more distraught over killing Matthew than Luke is watching everyone he's supposedly close friends with die around him. Even Luke's sound off to them in No Going Back isn't delivered all that passionately.
If these people so don't care, why should we as an audience care? I didn't care about Clementine this season. Why should I? No one else did, herself included. She gets shot in the chest, blacks out, and when she wakes up it's like getting up from a fucking nap. Not the least bit scared, or hell, even angry at what happened. It's just another "Oh well, that happened" moment. Just shrugging it off with Jane's bullshit nonsensical explanation. Jane doesn't seem to care. Kenny doesn't care. Nobody in that fucking scene actually cares about an eleven year being shot in the chest with a damn rifle.
That's a world of difference from season one where merely cutting her finger while moving a desk is given a whole scene to help establish both the importance of caring for someone and how it can actually be rewarding to take care of people. Just seeing her minor cut bleed carries more emotional punch for me, then watching Arvo shoot her, because in S1 Clementine felt like a person, and in S2 she feels like a generic video game protagonist. And I'd like to be wrong, but I just don't see that changing in S3.
The problem I have with the Walking Dead game franchise is that there is just so much DEATH. Almost everybody dies. The pattern for both sea… moresons is this: find a big group at the start - watch them die horribly one by one - be left with only a pitiful shadow of that former group remaining, in the form of one or two people. It's gotten to the point where I'm just like "why bother?" since you begin to realize that they're just gonna die anyway, and your actions don't mean much at all in the long run. Even though I desperately want them to live.
I just hope Season 3 will be different, and the choice you make will actually matter and build up to something in the end, instead of being left with nothing.
Yeah the characters not caring was definitely a problem, I wish they had kept that sequence where everyone's panicking in the horde and calling for each other. You can listen the audio here.
Death in itself isn't the problem, least not for me. I can still replay Season 1, which I've played over a dozen times now, and still feel a… more swell of emotions despite knowing all the outcomes because the story does such an excellent job making me care about the characters. They have a degree of depth and presence that when coupled with the excellent performances of their voice actors, makes you forget their really just lines of code synced with prerecorded dialogue and makes you actually think of them as people. And, like you said in your post, we as a species care about people.
Kenny in season one in particular felt like a real person for all the good and bad that entails. On the train when you have to talk him down you find out he still feels guilty about Shawn Greene. Months later he's still thinking about the red shirt character who we knew for at most twenty minutes, and that's because S1 Kenny was written as if he was a real person. … [view original content]
And in her first death she actually looks up and says Clementine's name as their leaving, like she just realized what was happening. They ne… morever sold me on Sarah being suicidal. Least not in the short time frame we see of her after Carlos dies. I could definitely see that happening later, but the moment in the trailer park just seemed like she wanted to be isolated, which is pretty common for people grieving. And she's suffering shock so bad she's not thinking of the danger she's in.
I really think originally that was suppose to be a Nick scene. He seemed suicidally depressed and Luke's presence there would make it more personal for him and comparing Nick to Jamie fits better than with Sarah since we've already heard Nick talk about giving up before because he's so distraught at the world.
From a purely pragmatic perspective, I agree with all of these being things Clem was at least partly responsible for, except the not being able to cover Luke. You can kill all the walkers on the lake; it's Bonnie that causes their combined weight to break the ice. Not sure what happens if you promise to cover Luke but do nothing; haven't played that option yet.
Still, I read this comment as a mocking of the OP and it game me a laugh. I have found it odd how some people who bash other characters for stupidity seem to give their other favorites a pass. Also cool drawing, did you do that yourself?
Yeah! I hear ya! And fuck that worthless little bitch Clementine too! Complains about using a gun and even cutting her hair. Your mom's dead… more moron she doesn't give a fuck about your hair anymore! Lee's trying to save your worthless ass. Bitch sees walkers coming and she just sits there crying like a baby. Fucking Ben of all people know you fucking RUN when that happens. Way to murder Chuck chicken shit! Then she betrays the entire group to talk to a weirdo over the radio, lies about it, then, even after everyone tells her not to keeping talking to him, she runs off into the arms off an obvious kidnapper because she misses her obviously long dead mommy and daddy. Grow the fuck up you stupid shit! Way to fuck over the entire group you selfish brat! Lee protected your ass for FUCKING MONTHS and you believe a weirdo on the radio over him? Because of you Vernon got the boat, Lee got bitten, Ben determinately dies, Kenny nearly dies. If anyone had … [view original content]
No, someone else posted that and I just swiped the image address. Description from the link says "Bitten by DJ Black n White" so kudos go to him.
And I was actually referencing the shoot out with the Russians when I said cover Luke, where Clem can shoot at the guy at the tree and Luke's leg gets shot. Not that I actually blame Clem for that, I was just demonstrating what happens when you take this spiteful attitude and turn it around on one of the most popular characters.
From a purely pragmatic perspective, I agree with all of these being things Clem was at least partly responsible for, except the not being a… moreble to cover Luke. You can kill all the walkers on the lake; it's Bonnie that causes their combined weight to break the ice. Not sure what happens if you promise to cover Luke but do nothing; haven't played that option yet.
Still, I read this comment as a mocking of the OP and it game me a laugh. I have found it odd how some people who bash other characters for stupidity seem to give their other favorites a pass. Also cool drawing, did you do that yourself?
From a purely pragmatic perspective, I agree with all of these being things Clem was at least partly responsible for, except the not being a… moreble to cover Luke. You can kill all the walkers on the lake; it's Bonnie that causes their combined weight to break the ice. Not sure what happens if you promise to cover Luke but do nothing; haven't played that option yet.
Still, I read this comment as a mocking of the OP and it game me a laugh. I have found it odd how some people who bash other characters for stupidity seem to give their other favorites a pass. Also cool drawing, did you do that yourself?
Yeah! I hear ya! And fuck that worthless little bitch Clementine too! Complains about using a gun and even cutting her hair. Your mom's dead… more moron she doesn't give a fuck about your hair anymore! Lee's trying to save your worthless ass. Bitch sees walkers coming and she just sits there crying like a baby. Fucking Ben of all people know you fucking RUN when that happens. Way to murder Chuck chicken shit! Then she betrays the entire group to talk to a weirdo over the radio, lies about it, then, even after everyone tells her not to keeping talking to him, she runs off into the arms off an obvious kidnapper because she misses her obviously long dead mommy and daddy. Grow the fuck up you stupid shit! Way to fuck over the entire group you selfish brat! Lee protected your ass for FUCKING MONTHS and you believe a weirdo on the radio over him? Because of you Vernon got the boat, Lee got bitten, Ben determinately dies, Kenny nearly dies. If anyone had … [view original content]
Season 2's brought out a lot of people who are happy to blame children for circumstances outside their control.
So it's Clem's fault that Sarita died either because Sarita couldn't stay calm or because Kenny lacked the decency to amputate her limb himself. It's Clem's fault that she left her gun for five seconds and had a bandit accidentally kill Omid. It's Sarah's fault that a stranger randomly grazed Carlos' neck and caused him to get eaten alive. It's Kenny's fault that a madman murdered his host.
Funnily enough, I don't see many people blaming Nick for being simultaneously a crack shot while still being unable to determine that his victim, Matthew, was NOT POINTING A GUN AT LUKE. Or people giving Pete and Carlos shit for supporting Clem getting locked up.
Didn't you know? You have to be as tough and adult-like as Clementine for people to think you're a good character. To hell with sentimentality. /sarcasm
Why save Sarah?
Because Clementine is a protector of the Living.
So is Lee.
So is Rick.
If you save the strong, and the strong a… morelone, you might as well start calling yourself the Governor. The strong protect the weak, not themselves.
(and that's why I say **** Jane)
I tried to be accommodating at first... but then after a while I went full on "Welcome to the Jungle" on her... in a time of live or be eaten... there is no time for cowering to cry.
Didn't you know? You have to be as tough and adult-like as Clementine for people to think you're a good character. To hell with sentimentality. /sarcasm
Season 2's brought out a lot of people who are happy to blame children for circumstances outside their control.
So it's Clem's fault that… more Sarita died either because Sarita couldn't stay calm or because Kenny lacked the decency to amputate her limb himself. It's Clem's fault that she left her gun for five seconds and had a bandit accidentally kill Omid. It's Sarah's fault that a stranger randomly grazed Carlos' neck and caused him to get eaten alive. It's Kenny's fault that a madman murdered his host.
Funnily enough, I don't see many people blaming Nick for being simultaneously a crack shot while still being unable to determine that his victim, Matthew, was NOT POINTING A GUN AT LUKE. Or people giving Pete and Carlos shit for supporting Clem getting locked up.
Hmm...If we're going to be bringing up Sarahs victims, how about we bring up Clementines?
* Lee Everett (Indirectly Caused) (Out of Mer… morecy, Determinant)
* Winston (Caused)
* Sam (Accidental) (Out of Mercy, Determinant)
* Nick (Indirectly Caused in "A House Divided") or (Zombified in "Amid The Ruins")
* Alvin (Indirectly Caused, Determinant)
* Reggie (Indirectly Caused, Determinant)
* Sarita (Caused, Determinant) (Before Reanimation, Determinant)
* Sarah (Indirectly Caused, Determinant) or (Caused, Accidental)
* Luke (Caused, Accidental, Determinant) or (Indirectly caused, Determinant)
* Jane (Indirectly Caused, Determinant)
* Kenny (Determinant)
Your argument isn't looking so logical now, is it?
Y'know... This thread reminds me of something... I'm not entirely sure what... Oh yeah, that's right!
"Killing one in order to save many is part of survival. It's one of the tough decisions that a weaker person couldn't make."
"But he was weak. And I don't mean just 'cause he was maimed, that wasn't his problem. He was weak of will. Weak of character. And we can't have that around here... not anymore."
Carver only got one thing right, and that's that it's up to the strong to lead the weak. I can understand being angry at a character like Ben, because he was just purely incompetent, but of course Sarah is gonna scream when she sees her dad get shot in the neck, and be ripped apart.
I was thinking about this thread earlier and it made me really sad because I have the same problems Sarah has (probably not as severe) and to think that someone would be happy to let me die because I'm "annoying" and can't help that I have a disability is quite upsetting.
Season 2's brought out a lot of people who are happy to blame children for circumstances outside their control.
The whole who killed who blame game of the TWD is one of the most fucking ridiculous things I've ever seen. No matter what happens, it seems like the blame is always on everyone BUT whoever actually decided to kill someone or risk their lives for someone/something. Yeah, it's Sarah's fault Carver decided to throw Reggie off a rooftop. It's Carley's fault that Lilly blew her brains out for daring to insult someone who was verbally assaulting her for five fucking minutes. Why not just blame these people's parents while you're at it. It's Carlos's fault Reggie died because fifteen years ago he fathered Sarah. And it's Carlos's parents' fault for creating him. And it's especially the most common ancestor's fault for spawning everyone in humanity in the first place. What an asshole!
And it's so biased too. Sarah is to blame for Carver killing Reggie for sucking a pruning bushes, but not Reggie himself for helping the cabin group escape in the first place? I know Carver's villainy is stupid and random, but I'm pretty sure Reggie helping the others escape Howe's in the first place was a bigger strike against Reg than the bush thing. Or maybe Carver really wanted those fucking blueberries. Ben is to blame for Chuck dying because he didn't try to save Clementine who froze up, but Sarah is too blame if Nick dies because he may have been trying to save her after she froze up...
I also find it interesting to how blind some people are of the irony of hating Ben for going behind the group's back to make a deal with someone because he foolishly believed them when they said they had someone he cared about, but take no issue when Clementine has secret talks she conceals from the group because she foolishly believed someone when he says he has her parents. Obviously the situations aren't exactly the same, but they both share the fundamental element of not trusting the people looking out for you out of desperation to regain a loved one who in all likelihood is probably already dead.
There was a segment in Silent Hill: Shattered Memories where the doc plays a game with you, which I think may have been cribbed from something more famous but I don't know what so I'll just use it as an example. He sets out some figures of a king, a prince, a princess and a bull. Then he tells you this story about the King betrothing the princess to the prince, but the princess doesn't love the prince, so she fleas. While fleeing, she unknowingly crossed into a field with a bull, who tramples her to death. Then he asks you which character killed the princess.
I figure the gist of the activity is assess people's personal bias and thought process by presenting a situation where they're asked to assign blame. And I'm sure some reason it as it was the king's fault for marrying off his daughter to someone she didn't love, or the prince for being the cause of the princess wanting to leave, or the princess herself for fleeing in the first place.
But, for me, remembering the question is "Who killed the princess?", I picked the bull. It killed her. If it didn't kill her, she wouldn't be dead right now. That's what happened. But I guess a lot of people wouldn't pick that because they'd desperately want to think there was something someone could have done to prevent this death, and it's hard to reason a bull being anything other than a bull was possible, but it is possible people could have made different decisions. It's part of the bargaining stage of grief. Reasoning if only this happened, or only so and so did this instead, things would be different. But sometimes, shit just happens. And shit happens a lot when there's fucking zombies everywhere.
Season 2's brought out a lot of people who are happy to blame children for circumstances outside their control.
So it's Clem's fault that… more Sarita died either because Sarita couldn't stay calm or because Kenny lacked the decency to amputate her limb himself. It's Clem's fault that she left her gun for five seconds and had a bandit accidentally kill Omid. It's Sarah's fault that a stranger randomly grazed Carlos' neck and caused him to get eaten alive. It's Kenny's fault that a madman murdered his host.
Funnily enough, I don't see many people blaming Nick for being simultaneously a crack shot while still being unable to determine that his victim, Matthew, was NOT POINTING A GUN AT LUKE. Or people giving Pete and Carlos shit for supporting Clem getting locked up.
That's fine if you disagree with me, I expect that from a lot of users anyway. It's also nice that you don't dislike me. If somebody were to dislike somebody else based on their opinions or interests, then they're just wrong. Those types of humans are so quick to judge somebody, not based off of their personality and behavior, but just one opinion out of thousands. It makes no sense to me, so I can at least thank you for at least not judging. I understand that "dickhead" was from anger, but nobody, and I mean NOBODY, should be called names are be described as something just because of an opinion or interests they have. In all honesty though, I don't even remember when all this happened, but thanks for the reminder.
Ignore all the hate you get, they can't respect an opinion.
Some opinions don't deserve respect when they are demonstrably false and… more riddled with logical holes. "I hate Sarah" is one thing. Creating this narrative of complete bullshit and being needlessly insulting the whole time is another. This is exactly why I went on that rant awhile back about how some opinions are pretty obviously stupid. People keep trying to create this impenetrable shield of dumbfuckery around the word "opinion", and it ain't gonna happen. That is NOT how opinions work. You say something, you better be ready for the retorts. Welcome to real life.
I once said I hated Sarah on another thread (I was being nice and giving my honest opinion) then somebody just goes out and says what I did was "rude"
Regardless of how you acted in that thread, I remember you making a post of a similar nature while calling Sarah a pretty disgusting term, which was enou… [view original content]
Exactly. Throughout all of my playthroughs, I have always sided with the weak, or hopeless.
I saved Doug, because he praised me, I couldn't let a man die after he just said I was a great guy.
I pulled up Ben, because what would Clem think of me, knowing I just killed her friend?
I saved Sarah, because of that promise.
And I let Jane die, because she proved way back in episode 4, when egging me on to leave Sarah behind, that she no longer cared about life, and was another Carver or Crawford waiting to happen. Kenny, unlike Carver, didn't kill Jane for being weak, but for tossing the weak away. Those are the true monsters.
Why did I save her???
Why would I ever just let someone die if I could actually do something to prevent it? Did she have issues? Yes. But… more so what? That is hardly a valid reason to want her dead.
So yeah, I saved her and you know what? I have zero regrets about it because to me it was and always will be the right thing to do.
Comments
Some opinions don't deserve respect when they are demonstrably false and riddled with logical holes. "I hate Sarah" is one thing. Creating this narrative of complete bullshit and being needlessly insulting the whole time is another. This is exactly why I went on that rant awhile back about how some opinions are pretty obviously stupid. People keep trying to create this impenetrable shield of dumbfuckery around the word "opinion", and it ain't gonna happen. That is NOT how opinions work. You say something, you better be ready for the retorts. Welcome to real life.
Regardless of how you acted in that thread, I remember you making a post of a similar nature while calling Sarah a pretty disgusting term, which was enough for me to write you off as a dickhead, especially in my post-episode 3 frustration. I've calmed down a bit since then, and for the record, I don't dislike you, but that bit of anger was not my fault, but the fault of your own word choices. My point is, maybe the way you see things isn't as easy as all that cut and dry "I was nice, they were mean" stuff. We all frame situations in our favor before really thinking about those situations.
I think the point of Jane's story wasn't that anyone should WANT Sarah to die but that Sarah didn't want to live in the world that the Walking Dead's Earth had become and they couldn't save her unless she wanted to live.
And her behavior was of someone who was willing to die rather than make the changes necessary to survive.
Which I think is **** but that's what I think they were going for.
Unlike some, you're not an asshole about it. Or at least I haven't seen you be one. Which is why I have respect for you.
It's mainly because it's an opinion in the minority. Some people view Sarah as an innocent child, which in general, she was. When people see you saying "I don't like Sarah" their immediate reaction is "omg how dare you why would you hate an innocent girl" that's mostly why people defend her. Because in peoples eyes, she's innocent. And that might not even be the reason why you hate her.
I usually get defensive when people don't bring up any valid points if they're trying to argue about the character. People that say "Sarah was a crybaby bitch she needed to grow up" is the reason why others are at your throats. They insult the character, trashing them like it's nothing. They don't even bother to empathize. Which is called having an irrational opinion and which is why people usually defend. Then you have those exact people doing the same to another character they don't like.
For example, Jane. I, for one, extremely hate her. I obviously don't mind if you like her, after all, it's your opinion. But, at least I've empathized with her. I could see where she was coming from during the argument with Kenny and the fight scene. There was just a lot of cons along with it, hence why I don't go vocal and say "JANE IS A FUCKING WHORE SCREW HER" and etc. Because I know that people like her character. And I'm not going to trash them to make other people feel angry and shit. It's just when people start to lie and say "Jane cared for everyone in the group" or something like that, and spread it like it's from Obama's mouth or something. Which then, you have the right to call them out for it.
Don't know what I'm getting at, to be honest. Probably just, "respect others' opinions, and it'll be returned in the same way" I don't know, something corny like that.
Yeah, fuck Sarah for not even doing a quarter of the terrible things Clementine did.
Headcanon: Sarah, beast at playing soccer at school, she trampled on them kids from Stone Mountain High.
And you can be dead.
You've gotta be fucking kidding me.
That was after Carlos died, that she gained PTSD.
Before that, Carlos said she would 'cease to function' if she knew what the world was really like.
wat
State Senator?
Lee?
I'll let that sink in.
Actually in Sarah's second death she screams out for help to be saved, Sarah did want to live.
And in her first death she actually looks up and says Clementine's name as their leaving, like she just realized what was happening. They never sold me on Sarah being suicidal. Least not in the short time frame we see of her after Carlos dies. I could definitely see that happening later, but the moment in the trailer park just seemed like she wanted to be isolated, which is pretty common for people grieving. And she's suffering shock so bad she's not thinking of the danger she's in.
I really think originally that was suppose to be a Nick scene. He seemed suicidally depressed and Luke's presence there would make it more personal for him and comparing Nick to Jamie fits better than with Sarah since we've already heard Nick talk about giving up before because he's so distraught at the world.
The problem I have with the Walking Dead game franchise is that there is just so much DEATH. Almost everybody dies. The pattern for both seasons is this: find a big group at the start - watch them die horribly one by one - be left with only a pitiful shadow of that former group remaining, in the form of one or two people. It's gotten to the point where I'm just like "why bother?" since you begin to realize that they're just gonna die anyway, and your actions don't mean much at all in the long run. Even though I desperately want them to live.
I just hope Season 3 will be different, and the choice you make will actually matter and build up to something in the end, instead of being left with nothing.
Very likely she had some form of anxiety disorder or autism spectrum disorder beforehand. Carlos thought the way to prevent her from breaking down would be to shelter her.
And seeing everyone here, willing to defend people like Sarah, gives me hope as well.
lol
Death in itself isn't the problem, least not for me. I can still replay Season 1, which I've played over a dozen times now, and still feel a swell of emotions despite knowing all the outcomes because the story does such an excellent job making me care about the characters. They have a degree of depth and presence that when coupled with the excellent performances of their voice actors, makes you forget their really just lines of code synced with prerecorded dialogue and makes you actually think of them as people. And, like you said in your post, we as a species care about people.
Kenny in season one in particular felt like a real person for all the good and bad that entails. On the train when you have to talk him down you find out he still feels guilty about Shawn Greene. Months later he's still thinking about the red shirt character who we knew for at most twenty minutes, and that's because S1 Kenny was written as if he was a real person. A real person wouldn't just forget seeing someone else's son be eaten alive while he was desperately cradling his own son in his arms. And Kenny carries that guilt all the way to the very end when he refuses to leave Ben behind, probably because he sees it as his way of atoning for leaving Shawn.
And that was just one aspect of S1 Kenny, and he was just one character, and he wasn't even the main character! I was actually going to go through the variable myriad of emotions we see out of him in season one, but it's not even necessary. Just think about how the S1 cast respond to finding the kid in the attic or the couple in the bed who shot themselves. People they had never met, knew nothing about, and had been long dead before they even found them, and they still care, they all care, they care a lot actually. The kid in particular. They even bury him, something they never could do for their own loved ones because of circumstances, but in doing so for this person you see that they would have liked to.
The bulk of the S2 cast don't feel like people because they don't seem to give a shit about anything. And it's not because they've desensitized to it. Kenny during Around Every Corner was becoming desensitized to death. Eagerly writing off people like Molly and Omid even though they've helped him just so he can get to his goal faster. Most of the cabin crew just kinda wander from spot to spot. The don't care when people they're supposedly friends with dies, they don't think about possible danger they may face, they don't even seem that motivated to do anything at all really.
They escaped from Howe's, but they're leaving the cabin really isn't felt as all that urgent afterwards. It's treated more like a camping trip. There's no real sense of panic or concern when Clem sees Carver's people in the distance. Just a comment from Carlos to leave in the morning. How about leaving someone on watch tonight? Or just leave right not even? Once they're recaptured they don't seem all that worried either, even telling Kenny to calm down. If it wasn't that bad, why'd they leave to begin with? These people aren't people, their just props in a zombie theme park ride.
Luke in particular pisses me off. He goes from cheerily carrying Clem, to dropping her on the dirt and angrily telling her he won't carry her as if she had tricked him, to getting misty eyed about a possibly made up dog Clem killed, and this is his introduction! What the fuck is this guy's motivation? He volunteers Clem to clear a dangerous bridge just for fun and doesn't even bother to give her a gun in case she gets overwhelmed. He seems baffled by the notion of shooting the insane murderous dictator who's killed and tortured several of his friends and pursued them relentlessly last time he escaped. He also seems more passionate about defending his need to fuck Jane then seeing both his childhood friend and a scared teenage girl die horribly. I was glad when he finally drowned so I wouldn't have to try and decipher is bafflingly inconsistent behavior anymore.
Sarah and Nick are popular with some by sheer virtue that they actually seem to act like people do, or at least close enough in comparison to the rest of the S2 cast. This is in spite having no actual impact on the story. But you actually get the idea they give a shit, because they actually react to the stuff around them. Nick is more distraught over killing Matthew than Luke is watching everyone he's supposedly close friends with die around him. Even Luke's sound off to them in No Going Back isn't delivered all that passionately.
If these people so don't care, why should we as an audience care? I didn't care about Clementine this season. Why should I? No one else did, herself included. She gets shot in the chest, blacks out, and when she wakes up it's like getting up from a fucking nap. Not the least bit scared, or hell, even angry at what happened. It's just another "Oh well, that happened" moment. Just shrugging it off with Jane's bullshit nonsensical explanation. Jane doesn't seem to care. Kenny doesn't care. Nobody in that fucking scene actually cares about an eleven year being shot in the chest with a damn rifle.
That's a world of difference from season one where merely cutting her finger while moving a desk is given a whole scene to help establish both the importance of caring for someone and how it can actually be rewarding to take care of people. Just seeing her minor cut bleed carries more emotional punch for me, then watching Arvo shoot her, because in S1 Clementine felt like a person, and in S2 she feels like a generic video game protagonist. And I'd like to be wrong, but I just don't see that changing in S3.
I didn't mean it that way
Gary is the voice of reason!
ayy lmao
I purposefully kept people who we would actually care about or could have been innocent (from their perspective). The Stranger was just deranged.
Yeah the characters not caring was definitely a problem, I wish they had kept that sequence where everyone's panicking in the horde and calling for each other. You can listen the audio here.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hQLRHRqizaM
Throughout the whole episode I thought she was grieving. Apparently you can't mourn in the ZA or you become a "crybaby bitch".
From a purely pragmatic perspective, I agree with all of these being things Clem was at least partly responsible for, except the not being able to cover Luke. You can kill all the walkers on the lake; it's Bonnie that causes their combined weight to break the ice. Not sure what happens if you promise to cover Luke but do nothing; haven't played that option yet.
Still, I read this comment as a mocking of the OP and it game me a laugh. I have found it odd how some people who bash other characters for stupidity seem to give their other favorites a pass. Also cool drawing, did you do that yourself?
No, someone else posted that and I just swiped the image address. Description from the link says "Bitten by DJ Black n White" so kudos go to him.
And I was actually referencing the shoot out with the Russians when I said cover Luke, where Clem can shoot at the guy at the tree and Luke's leg gets shot. Not that I actually blame Clem for that, I was just demonstrating what happens when you take this spiteful attitude and turn it around on one of the most popular characters.
If you don't do anything when shooting at the walkers, they all magically disappear. Though if you don't break the ice Bonnie drowns with Luke.
Please let there be people that are intelligent enough to understand sarcasm.
Season 2's brought out a lot of people who are happy to blame children for circumstances outside their control.
So it's Clem's fault that Sarita died either because Sarita couldn't stay calm or because Kenny lacked the decency to amputate her limb himself. It's Clem's fault that she left her gun for five seconds and had a bandit accidentally kill Omid. It's Sarah's fault that a stranger randomly grazed Carlos' neck and caused him to get eaten alive. It's Kenny's fault that a madman murdered his host.
Funnily enough, I don't see many people blaming Nick for being simultaneously a crack shot while still being unable to determine that his victim, Matthew, was NOT POINTING A GUN AT LUKE. Or people giving Pete and Carlos shit for supporting Clem getting locked up.
Headcanon: She was friends with Ben.
Or his bully. PSYCHE!
Didn't you know? You have to be as tough and adult-like as Clementine for people to think you're a good character. To hell with sentimentality. /sarcasm
(?) Luke agrees with you.
I tried to be accommodating at first... but then after a while I went full on "Welcome to the Jungle" on her... in a time of live or be eaten... there is no time for cowering to cry.
Some people, huh?
Did you accidentally reply to me Bokor?
Why not? Imo it's foolish to have actual hate for a character who doesn't intentionally harm anyone
I made a list like this two days ago. I didn't realize how many more people Clem got killed.
Y'know... This thread reminds me of something... I'm not entirely sure what... Oh yeah, that's right!
"Killing one in order to save many is part of survival. It's one of the tough decisions that a weaker person couldn't make."
"But he was weak. And I don't mean just 'cause he was maimed, that wasn't his problem. He was weak of will. Weak of character. And we can't have that around here... not anymore."
Carver only got one thing right, and that's that it's up to the strong to lead the weak. I can understand being angry at a character like Ben, because he was just purely incompetent, but of course Sarah is gonna scream when she sees her dad get shot in the neck, and be ripped apart.
I was thinking about this thread earlier and it made me really sad because I have the same problems Sarah has (probably not as severe) and to think that someone would be happy to let me die because I'm "annoying" and can't help that I have a disability is quite upsetting.
The whole who killed who blame game of the TWD is one of the most fucking ridiculous things I've ever seen. No matter what happens, it seems like the blame is always on everyone BUT whoever actually decided to kill someone or risk their lives for someone/something. Yeah, it's Sarah's fault Carver decided to throw Reggie off a rooftop. It's Carley's fault that Lilly blew her brains out for daring to insult someone who was verbally assaulting her for five fucking minutes. Why not just blame these people's parents while you're at it. It's Carlos's fault Reggie died because fifteen years ago he fathered Sarah. And it's Carlos's parents' fault for creating him. And it's especially the most common ancestor's fault for spawning everyone in humanity in the first place. What an asshole!
And it's so biased too. Sarah is to blame for Carver killing Reggie for sucking a pruning bushes, but not Reggie himself for helping the cabin group escape in the first place? I know Carver's villainy is stupid and random, but I'm pretty sure Reggie helping the others escape Howe's in the first place was a bigger strike against Reg than the bush thing. Or maybe Carver really wanted those fucking blueberries. Ben is to blame for Chuck dying because he didn't try to save Clementine who froze up, but Sarah is too blame if Nick dies because he may have been trying to save her after she froze up...
I also find it interesting to how blind some people are of the irony of hating Ben for going behind the group's back to make a deal with someone because he foolishly believed them when they said they had someone he cared about, but take no issue when Clementine has secret talks she conceals from the group because she foolishly believed someone when he says he has her parents. Obviously the situations aren't exactly the same, but they both share the fundamental element of not trusting the people looking out for you out of desperation to regain a loved one who in all likelihood is probably already dead.
There was a segment in Silent Hill: Shattered Memories where the doc plays a game with you, which I think may have been cribbed from something more famous but I don't know what so I'll just use it as an example. He sets out some figures of a king, a prince, a princess and a bull. Then he tells you this story about the King betrothing the princess to the prince, but the princess doesn't love the prince, so she fleas. While fleeing, she unknowingly crossed into a field with a bull, who tramples her to death. Then he asks you which character killed the princess.
I figure the gist of the activity is assess people's personal bias and thought process by presenting a situation where they're asked to assign blame. And I'm sure some reason it as it was the king's fault for marrying off his daughter to someone she didn't love, or the prince for being the cause of the princess wanting to leave, or the princess herself for fleeing in the first place.
But, for me, remembering the question is "Who killed the princess?", I picked the bull. It killed her. If it didn't kill her, she wouldn't be dead right now. That's what happened. But I guess a lot of people wouldn't pick that because they'd desperately want to think there was something someone could have done to prevent this death, and it's hard to reason a bull being anything other than a bull was possible, but it is possible people could have made different decisions. It's part of the bargaining stage of grief. Reasoning if only this happened, or only so and so did this instead, things would be different. But sometimes, shit just happens. And shit happens a lot when there's fucking zombies everywhere.
That's fine if you disagree with me, I expect that from a lot of users anyway. It's also nice that you don't dislike me. If somebody were to dislike somebody else based on their opinions or interests, then they're just wrong. Those types of humans are so quick to judge somebody, not based off of their personality and behavior, but just one opinion out of thousands. It makes no sense to me, so I can at least thank you for at least not judging. I understand that "dickhead" was from anger, but nobody, and I mean NOBODY, should be called names are be described as something just because of an opinion or interests they have. In all honesty though, I don't even remember when all this happened, but thanks for the reminder.
Exactly. Throughout all of my playthroughs, I have always sided with the weak, or hopeless.
I saved Doug, because he praised me, I couldn't let a man die after he just said I was a great guy.
I pulled up Ben, because what would Clem think of me, knowing I just killed her friend?
I saved Sarah, because of that promise.
And I let Jane die, because she proved way back in episode 4, when egging me on to leave Sarah behind, that she no longer cared about life, and was another Carver or Crawford waiting to happen. Kenny, unlike Carver, didn't kill Jane for being weak, but for tossing the weak away. Those are the true monsters.