Right, because an episode where your choices matter more than in any other they've ever done so far and an episode with amazingly written story and characters is just pure trash because it's just an hour and twenty minutes. Goes to show that people will always complain even if they get exactly what they asked for. Wolf Among Us had 2 episodes that were just as long as this episode, Batman S1's second episode is the same length as well but somehow this one is the one that crossed the line. Yet in this one, the replay value is three times more potent than in any other eps I've mentioned. You feel ripped off? Just because one episode's length is below your ideal standard? Sorry, but I don't think that you fully appreciate the work that's been put into these episodes, especially when you compare them to Telltale's other games. They have done an amazing job with every episode so far and What Ails You is no different. It's my personal second favorite episode so far.
There were still some good parts but ultimately i feel ripped off. Like Telltale showed everyone a good episode or two and now they're like … more"fuck it, let's wrap this up since everyone already bought their season passes. Consistency be damned". We might only get one more episode of this series ever so for them to shovel out a 1 hour episode is unacceptable in my eyes.
Rush John into becoming the bad guy without any evolution? I don't know what John you met, but in my opinion his descent into darkness has been dragged out for as long as possible. Even more so in the vigilante ending, where he only becomes determined to hunt down the Agency after they betray him.
He doesn't become evil for no reason like you imply. Him killing the agents at the funhouse? That's not him becoming the Joker, that's just a show of the real things John is capable of when he's pushed to the edge, just like he can reveal in episode 3. Every season of this episode, he comes closer and closer to madness. And it's up to you, the player, to bring him back or push him over. He's been betrayed by nearly everyone and you're his final switch - he's testing you at the funhouse, seeing if you really care, if you ever did. Betraying his trust in that moment or in the moments later on the bridge is what finally causes him to snap and become who he really feels he is.
In my opinion, that's not very poorly done, that's done exactly like people hoped it would. If he had been a manipulator, pulling the strings this entire time, don't you think it would utterly and completely ruin the premise and purpose of his character? How would your influence affect him in any way if that was the case? Plus, that's something people have called out from the start, it would be very predictable and unoriginal and I'm glad that's not the case.
Gordon being gone is somewhat disappointing but Catwoman had her part in this episode and her part in this story is not really that important anyway and I'd hardly compare her treatment in this episode to the treatment she had in S1 E4. There she was just completely useless.
I agree, the episode was far from terrible but it was the weakest of the season. It was just really short for the long wait, and the plot se… moreemed like it was just to rush John into being the main bad guy without any real evolution into it. Just, "Oops he's Joker now!" it was just poorly done, I was expecting some type of twist that he always was completely crazy, I mean they never really explain how he got out of Arkham, but he got out near the end of Season 1. Or explain what he was planning to do with that very last scene of Season 1. It just felt weak, like they forgot they were setting him up to be some mastermind from S1 just for them to ignore it.
Hopefully episode 5 will have pay offs, and I agree with Gordon being gone too. The fact the game just FORBIDDEN us to ever Telltale Gordon we were Batman even though there was countless scenes where it would make sense for him to know but never given the option and then him just not being i… [view original content]
Oh come on now, the quality of this episode is not comparable to the quality of any episode from New Frontier, not even close. Plus Ties That Bind Part 2 wasn't that bad.
What are you talking about, he's been insane since Season 1, he literally made a cut on a guy's face just so he would go crazy and start killing people, and if you don't stop the fight it is mentioned how Zsasz killed like 2 employees of Arkham, people fell so quickly for his lies and puppy eyes.
Rush John into becoming the bad guy without any evolution? I don't know what John you met, but in my opinion his descent into darkness has b… moreeen dragged out for as long as possible. Even more so in the vigilante ending, where he only becomes determined to hunt down the Agency after they betray him.
He doesn't become evil for no reason like you imply. Him killing the agents at the funhouse? That's not him becoming the Joker, that's just a show of the real things John is capable of when he's pushed to the edge, just like he can reveal in episode 3. Every season of this episode, he comes closer and closer to madness. And it's up to you, the player, to bring him back or push him over. He's been betrayed by nearly everyone and you're his final switch - he's testing you at the funhouse, seeing if you really care, if you ever did. Betraying his trust in that moment or in the moments later on the bridge is what finally causes him to snap and become… [view original content]
TT has been getting these episodes out fairly quickly so I'm assuming we'll get a late February release. I also hope the finale is as long as episode 1, if not longer. There's a lot of loose threads that still need to be tied up. Then again, a cliffhanger would pretty much guarantee a third season unless TT forgets about it coughGameofThronescough
I didn't say he wasn't insane? Even so, he cut Zsasz's face so you could escape Arkham, not because he wanted to. Sure, he enjoyed it, but come on, Zsasz was hardly a good guy. I never said John was normal, but he isn't completely mad or psychopathic until you decide to not trust him. He's not a bad guy until then.
What are you talking about, he's been insane since Season 1, he literally made a cut on a guy's face just so he would go crazy and start kil… moreling people, and if you don't stop the fight it is mentioned how Zsasz killed like 2 employees of Arkham, people fell so quickly for his lies and puppy eyes.
I agree, the episode was far from terrible but it was the weakest of the season. It was just really short for the long wait, and the plot se… moreemed like it was just to rush John into being the main bad guy without any real evolution into it. Just, "Oops he's Joker now!" it was just poorly done, I was expecting some type of twist that he always was completely crazy, I mean they never really explain how he got out of Arkham, but he got out near the end of Season 1. Or explain what he was planning to do with that very last scene of Season 1. It just felt weak, like they forgot they were setting him up to be some mastermind from S1 just for them to ignore it.
Hopefully episode 5 will have pay offs, and I agree with Gordon being gone too. The fact the game just FORBIDDEN us to ever Telltale Gordon we were Batman even though there was countless scenes where it would make sense for him to know but never given the option and then him just not being i… [view original content]
Oh please, where the hell did I say it was pure trash? I admitted there were good parts but that the length and the fact that half the characters are thrown aside and forgotten left me feeling ripped off, and rightfully so. The roster is so full of villains and allies this season yet hardly anyone except John and Avesta get any amount of decent screentime.
Why are you bringing up episodes that are years old? And yes, the length of those episodes was also unacceptable especially in cases where fans waiting nearly a third of a year for them to release. Episode length has been a major complaint from players for a while now so you bringing up older episodes is a cop out.
If you actually paid attention to anything I post around here you'd know damn well that I appreciate the fuck out of Telltale and their games, but I'm also gonna call them out when I see things that are completely regressive to what they need to be doing. I'm glad you enjoyed the episode so much but there are perfectly valid complaints here such as the inconsistent and short episode lengths and the fact that many, many characters and subplots are being forgotten and thrown aside. You cannot possibly tell me that the episode wouldn't have benefitted immensely from another hour or even 30 minutes of gameplay.
Right, because an episode where your choices matter more than in any other they've ever done so far and an episode with amazingly written st… moreory and characters is just pure trash because it's just an hour and twenty minutes. Goes to show that people will always complain even if they get exactly what they asked for. Wolf Among Us had 2 episodes that were just as long as this episode, Batman S1's second episode is the same length as well but somehow this one is the one that crossed the line. Yet in this one, the replay value is three times more potent than in any other eps I've mentioned. You feel ripped off? Just because one episode's length is below your ideal standard? Sorry, but I don't think that you fully appreciate the work that's been put into these episodes, especially when you compare them to Telltale's other games. They have done an amazing job with every episode so far and What Ails You is no different. It's my personal second favorite episode so far.
I don't really get hating this episode tbh. It was obviously a "John Episode". Could it have been a little longer? Sure. But considering TT recently downsized, and a lot of employees probably had time off for the holidays we should be thankful they managed to get this episode to us in January instead of complaining. We could've had to wait two months instead of one. Plus, since the focus was on John and the Pact was taken down this episode what else were we really supposed to see?
Sure, they could've shoehorned Gordon in, but he was just dismissed by Waller, and like I said it was a John-centric episode. Bane was never really meant to be anything other than a constant threat, and things with Freeze were left on a great note for the finale or even a third season.
TT also did a great job of positioning Waller into a fully antagonistic role this episode. All things considered this was a great episode. Complaining because "side character #3" wasn't shown or because of the short length is just being nit picky for the sake of being nit picky imo.
Ok so, episode 1 John's only scene is him wanting Bruce to meet his "friends" episode 2 comes and now we meet John's friends and we see he is only really there because he is in love with Harley. Episode 3, again we see is only there for Harley and now Bruce as well. Now episode 4 comes and he is sad about Harley, we see he killed a ton of agents that is implied he isnt telling the full truth about it being self defense by the bullet holes in their backs, and then is out here on a bridge blowing shit up, so in other words, yes he suddenly reaches this point rapid fire in the last 15 minutes rather than a gradual decent into his insanity. Obviously John isnt sane, but its poorly done because all his scenes are just very small "oh this seems bad for John because it could lead to him being the Joker" and then it goes "O FUCK HE KILLIN PEOPLE NOW B!!!" so its really not gradual at all. Its why Freeze and Bane just go "bye guys" at the very start of the episode and why Harley is not a big part of the episode, they just needed to make an excuse for John to be the main bad guy. They could have done a way better job with it, make each episode his decent way more noticeable rather than John just going "theres a voice in my head ;("
John being a mastermind could be predictable, but at least it makes sense. Telltale just ignored S1's ending involving John, that plus it would at least make John's sudden rush to make him the main bad guy make more sense to just happen due to it being a reveal that he was bad from the start. Also, this is Telltale there isnt going to be any real noticeable factors for Vigilante Joker and Villain Joker, just one with have Harley and probs wear different outfits.
Rush John into becoming the bad guy without any evolution? I don't know what John you met, but in my opinion his descent into darkness has b… moreeen dragged out for as long as possible. Even more so in the vigilante ending, where he only becomes determined to hunt down the Agency after they betray him.
He doesn't become evil for no reason like you imply. Him killing the agents at the funhouse? That's not him becoming the Joker, that's just a show of the real things John is capable of when he's pushed to the edge, just like he can reveal in episode 3. Every season of this episode, he comes closer and closer to madness. And it's up to you, the player, to bring him back or push him over. He's been betrayed by nearly everyone and you're his final switch - he's testing you at the funhouse, seeing if you really care, if you ever did. Betraying his trust in that moment or in the moments later on the bridge is what finally causes him to snap and become… [view original content]
Yes I know that, but we see John was outside of Arkham just a few days after that entire fight at Arkham, so I think its more safe to assume he escaped rather than being released.
Slightly hyperbolic of me, you didn't say it was pure trash but if you're feeling "ripped off" then you obviously don't think the episode was worth the price which tells me you're thinking it was below average and I just can't see why. You did say Telltale went "fuck it" and that they "shoveled it out" and I obviously don't mean to take you word by word but I simply feel the necessity to defend Telltale because I strongly disagree with what you're saying.
Episode 1 was the longest episode by far and yes, it was very good but if I had to decide which episode I'd want to replay, The Enigma would be at the bottom of the list. There's just not enough variation and different scenarios that make me want to sit through the 2 hours needed to finish it. (plus that annoying bug with the Riddler's safe) Episodes 3/4 are the ones I'd pick because there's simply so much variability and so much freedom of choice that I consider them to be far superior. I find replayability to be more important than sole episode length so maybe that's why our viewpoints differ so much. Because when I play through all the different scenes and all the different variations of episode 4, I easily get about 2-3 hours of content. The only parts of episode 1 that are worth replaying are the Eli/Mori choices and the section with Avesta at the end. That's about 20 minutes of different scenes. Episode 4 is doing far better on that front.
As for forgotten characters, Avesta barely had any screentime in episodes 2 and 3, whereas Tiffany has roughly the same amount of screentime in every episode and Selina had most of episode 3 dedicated to her with decent time in episode 4. Gordon is the only one who I feel is truly missing but I don't think the quality of What Ails You suffers because of it.
I brought the years old episodes up because I still think they are of some relevance when judging the quality of an episode. Especially when it comes to the short ones. I get that shorter episodes are generally not well received but from what I've read, people really liked Bat1Ep2 even when it was the shortest one by far. Just thought it's worth mentioning.
I read your posts, you do have some solid ideas that I very much agree with but I feel you're way too harsh on this episode because one of the main complaints people have had with Telltale is that choices don't matter. Well they do now and I believe that's something we should take into account. I'd rather have shorter but more diverse episodes than longer ones that don't have as many scenarios. Of course I'd be most happy with long episodes with the diversity of episode 4 but sometimes there are sacrifices that have to be made. And still, one short episode hardly matters when you have three (or four with ep5) long ones. Not something to be feeling ripped off for, surely.
Oh please, where the hell did I say it was pure trash? I admitted there were good parts but that the length and the fact that half the char… moreacters are thrown aside and forgotten left me feeling ripped off, and rightfully so. The roster is so full of villains and allies this season yet hardly anyone except John and Avesta get any amount of decent screentime.
Why are you bringing up episodes that are years old? And yes, the length of those episodes was also unacceptable especially in cases where fans waiting nearly a third of a year for them to release. Episode length has been a major complaint from players for a while now so you bringing up older episodes is a cop out.
If you actually paid attention to anything I post around here you'd know damn well that I appreciate the fuck out of Telltale and their games, but I'm also gonna call them out when I see things that are completely regressive to what they need to be doing. I'm glad you … [view original content]
I could be remembering things wrong but didn’t John or his doctor say he was as the asylum voluntarily?
I’m not exactly sure how asylums/mental hospitals work but if that was the case i think it would give him more freedom as to how long he would spend in there so it’s possible he left by his own choice.
Yes I know that, but we see John was outside of Arkham just a few days after that entire fight at Arkham, so I think its more safe to assume he escaped rather than being released.
Yes I know that, but we see John was outside of Arkham just a few days after that entire fight at Arkham, so I think its more safe to assume he escaped rather than being released.
I don't see him killing those agents immediately equaling him becoming bad, from what we've seen of the Agency, I honestly believe he's telling the truth. His reactions and actions on the bridge if you trust him are proof of this. I believe the agents either tried to attack him or threatened Harley and that's what caused him to snap. It doesn't matter from my perspective nearly as much as it matters from yours.
What matters is whether the only friend John has left betrays him or believes him. If one chooses the former, John has no reason to behave good anymore and treats Harley as his true ally, meaning he'll accept her methods and use whatever means necessary to hunt you down for betraying him. He's lost everyone and begins to see the world as rotten and unjust, as a one big joke. He does this of his own volition and beliefs, not because of some voice. He lets the beast inside him loose and becomes his inner dark self.
One the other hand, if you trust him, he doesn't become anything near as bad as the villain he could become, instead he chooses Batman as his only true ally and does things he considers to be just. When he sees the true face of the Agency, he vows to hunt them down and bring them to justice. He only detonates the bridge because they push him to do it, not because he wanted to. He does say, "That's what I want to see" after he blows the bridge up, but he only means it in a sense that the Agency is getting what they deserve. The two Jokers are completely, completely different from one another so I don't see why you're so negative about the choices mattering. They already do.
Ok so, episode 1 John's only scene is him wanting Bruce to meet his "friends" episode 2 comes and now we meet John's friends and we see he … moreis only really there because he is in love with Harley. Episode 3, again we see is only there for Harley and now Bruce as well. Now episode 4 comes and he is sad about Harley, we see he killed a ton of agents that is implied he isnt telling the full truth about it being self defense by the bullet holes in their backs, and then is out here on a bridge blowing shit up, so in other words, yes he suddenly reaches this point rapid fire in the last 15 minutes rather than a gradual decent into his insanity. Obviously John isnt sane, but its poorly done because all his scenes are just very small "oh this seems bad for John because it could lead to him being the Joker" and then it goes "O FUCK HE KILLIN PEOPLE NOW B!!!" so its really not gradual at all. Its why Freeze and Bane just go "bye guys" at the very start … [view original content]
Season 1 said John didnt even have an official record for when he was put in Arkham but that he was just always in Arkham and no one is even sure where he came from or who he really was (thus John Doe name) , not that he chose to stay there.
I could be remembering things wrong but didn’t John or his doctor say he was as the asylum voluntarily?
I’m not exactly sure how asylums/… moremental hospitals work but if that was the case i think it would give him more freedom as to how long he would spend in there so it’s possible he left by his own choice.
Again, the whole scene where we find John surrounded by the dead bodies is what starts the entire rush to just put him into the main antagonist role in episode 5. And it really does matter from a story perspective. Say he is telling the truth, it was 100% self defense. So now John through the entirety of this season has done nothing evil or truly terribly wrong but even though he would be innocent he then goes to the bridge and attacks. Basically for a scene to just be off screen that pretty much kick starts the push for him to become Joker to not even define if he did something bad or not just for him then to go and do something bad, its just stupid.
Again, through out the season John just talks about a voice in his head that he feels is telling him to break out and do bad things. If John only cared about being betrayed, then you think he wouldnt go save Harley after Bruce betrayed him, because Harley also betrayed him so I doubt that was his motivation. And again, vigilante and villain John are the same. Like, thats just the truth really, both want to do the same thing just one also wants to get rid of Batman. However, its pretty obvious that if you get vigilante John when we interact with him we'll just tell him we dont agree with what he's doing and then he'll be against us, and thus we all have the same Joker now except for a small scene change. Also the vigilante ending its so forced its stupid. John does everything right, and then says he doesnt want to give the agency the virus, so then Waller decides to just shoot him on the spot, despite the fact it could break the virus open and get people infected which was exactly what they didnt want, so it serves no poruse other than PLOT to force Joker to want to kill everyone. They just make Waller try to kill him instead of just talking for longer than 10 seconds so he has to become Joker still.
I don't see him killing those agents immediately equaling him becoming bad, from what we've seen of the Agency, I honestly believe he's tell… moreing the truth. His reactions and actions on the bridge if you trust him are proof of this. I believe the agents either tried to attack him or threatened Harley and that's what caused him to snap. It doesn't matter from my perspective nearly as much as it matters from yours.
What matters is whether the only friend John has left betrays him or believes him. If one chooses the former, John has no reason to behave good anymore and treats Harley as his true ally, meaning he'll accept her methods and use whatever means necessary to hunt you down for betraying him. He's lost everyone and begins to see the world as rotten and unjust, as a one big joke. He does this of his own volition and beliefs, not because of some voice. He lets the beast inside him loose and becomes his inner dark self.
One the other ha… [view original content]
Dude you're really just making it sound like John was just good old harmless John that could never do anything wrong and TT just shoehorned in the dead agents and POOF JOHN IS BAD NOW. John was always dangerous ever since S1, he was just less dangerous when compared to Harley, Bane and Freeze and was pretty much just helping out The Pact due to his love for Harley and to find out who he was. In S1 he has a random violent outburst and cuts Victor without a second thought just to help Bruce escape. If you don't agree to John's promise the codex even has Bruce say something like "there was something unnerving about his smile, I couldn't bring myself to trust him" or whatever.
Now in S2 he's much more like a lost puppy, which actually isn't that hard to believe. In S1 Arkham was pretty much his kingdom, but in the "real world" he has no idea where he fits or how to behave and is pretty much just with The Pact to gain Harley's favor. But he's still excited by acts of violence, and doesn't think twice about whacking Bullock over the head with a tire iron. Then, after everything goes down in episode 4 he's completely distressed and angry over Harley, and pissed at Bruce for what he perceives as bad advice.
After he kills the agents he's even more distressed, angry, and confused. John has been shown to be mentally unstable from the start, this idea that his change to Vigilante or Villain was oh so poorly planned out or implemented because it took 15 minutes or whatever is just nit picky when John was never shown to NOT be dangerous or unstable in earlier episodes.
Again, the whole scene where we find John surrounded by the dead bodies is what starts the entire rush to just put him into the main antagon… moreist role in episode 5. And it really does matter from a story perspective. Say he is telling the truth, it was 100% self defense. So now John through the entirety of this season has done nothing evil or truly terribly wrong but even though he would be innocent he then goes to the bridge and attacks. Basically for a scene to just be off screen that pretty much kick starts the push for him to become Joker to not even define if he did something bad or not just for him then to go and do something bad, its just stupid.
Again, through out the season John just talks about a voice in his head that he feels is telling him to break out and do bad things. If John only cared about being betrayed, then you think he wouldnt go save Harley after Bruce betrayed him, because Harley also betrayed him so I doubt that was… [view original content]
When we were waiting for A New Frontier Episode 5 to release, we expected it to be over 2 hours long because there were lots of loose thread that need to be tied up, but they didn’t bother. So don’t get your hopes up as ANF Episode 5 was just over an hour.
TT has been getting these episodes out fairly quickly so I'm assuming we'll get a late February release. I also hope the finale is as long a… mores episode 1, if not longer. There's a lot of loose threads that still need to be tied up. Then again, a cliffhanger would pretty much guarantee a third season unless TT forgets about it coughGameofThronescough
You can think about it like this.
S1 John: He's in his home turf of Arkham Asylum, and even though he's "making progress" he's still bats… morehit crazy.
S2 John: He's more of a fish out of water, trying to learn his place in the world but still...HE'S BATSHIT CRAZY.
I never said John wasnt dangerous, but you cant go from "John cut someone once and also hit someone" to "John kills 20 people" also that is half my problem with John's transformation in Season 2. Season 1 already showed he pretty much "was" Joker already, with him starting that fight, but also because the end of season 1 shows John literally making threats towards Batman/Bruce, just for that to be forgotten and replaced with a John who suddenly is a follower instead of some independent person who was going to go after Batman/Bruce. This is half the reason why I thought there would be a bigger reveal for John and his complete transformation, but instead its just "o idk lets just forget about that scene and just make him kill a ton of people now because we are running out of time" Its just really underwhelming, John in S2 seems to be almost separate from S1 John. If they were going to just remove John's original plans from S1 to try something new with John in S2, just for it to be an underwhelming "he killed people off screen and now he's finally going overboard" with absolutely nothing else and not explaining what was with that ending scene from S1, it all just comes out as sloppy and not that well done.
Dude you're really just making it sound like John was just good old harmless John that could never do anything wrong and TT just shoehorned … morein the dead agents and POOF JOHN IS BAD NOW. John was always dangerous ever since S1, he was just less dangerous when compared to Harley, Bane and Freeze and was pretty much just helping out The Pact due to his love for Harley and to find out who he was. In S1 he has a random violent outburst and cuts Victor without a second thought just to help Bruce escape. If you don't agree to John's promise the codex even has Bruce say something like "there was something unnerving about his smile, I couldn't bring myself to trust him" or whatever.
Now in S2 he's much more like a lost puppy, which actually isn't that hard to believe. In S1 Arkham was pretty much his kingdom, but in the "real world" he has no idea where he fits or how to behave and is pretty much just with The Pact to gain Harley's favor. But he's s… [view original content]
Well I know lots of people wanted John to be some kind of mastermind that was secretly playing everyone, Bruce included but I actually prefer the trying to figure himself out version TT went with. I wouldn't put too much stock into the final scene of S1, since John's whole obsession with Bruce originally stemmed from him seeing something darker in him. End of S1 John is basically just: "I see the same kind of darkness in Bruce/Batman that I see in myself, and we're going to have SO MUCH FUN TOGETHER." It doesn't have to mean he's some master manipulator playing dumb with everyone. He really was just a guy trying to figure out who he was, and depending on your choice he either becomes a Batman wannabe or murderous psychopath.
I never said John wasnt dangerous, but you cant go from "John cut someone once and also hit someone" to "John kills 20 people" also that is … morehalf my problem with John's transformation in Season 2. Season 1 already showed he pretty much "was" Joker already, with him starting that fight, but also because the end of season 1 shows John literally making threats towards Batman/Bruce, just for that to be forgotten and replaced with a John who suddenly is a follower instead of some independent person who was going to go after Batman/Bruce. This is half the reason why I thought there would be a bigger reveal for John and his complete transformation, but instead its just "o idk lets just forget about that scene and just make him kill a ton of people now because we are running out of time" Its just really underwhelming, John in S2 seems to be almost separate from S1 John. If they were going to just remove John's original plans from S1 to try something … [view original content]
The first episode of this season was over 2 hours, while every ANF episode had almost the same length. I don’t know why people have to bring ANF for everything...
When we were waiting for A New Frontier Episode 5 to release, we expected it to be over 2 hours long because there were lots of loose thread… more that need to be tied up, but they didn’t bother. So don’t get your hopes up as ANF Episode 5 was just over an hour.
You guys really think John is going to be your best bud in taking down Waller?
Yes, the Agency must be stopped from doing whatever they're doing (even though I think we might fail on that), but John is also in the wrong too guys! His methods so far are quite questionable. Shooting random Agency grunts (possibly unprovoked?) Blowing up a bridge? Yeah, Batman won't like that.
We're gonna need to have a talk, Mr. Doe. A long one.
People saying its such a high quality episode when it actually felt like the lowest quality episode of the season. The opening scenes in SAN… moreCTUS were awesome but after that it was so incredibly rushed. Rushed scenes with Tiffany and Alfred, no Gordon, just immediately jumping from one place to another. People love John so I think that's why they loved the episode but in reality it was insultingly short and rushed. Season started very strong with a great 2.5 hour length and then we get an hour long episode dumped on our laps. So yes I'm bitter.
I (evidently) am in the minority, but I really liked the fourth episode. As others said, I found the short length a bit meh, but that's about the extent of if. I didn't really find a whole lot of John's transition to be as ham-fisted as some described, and I even actually became somewhat attached and empathetic to John whereas I felt that earlier episodes tried too hard to play up the angle of John trying to befriend Bruce.
I didn't have problems with how the Agency caused John to snap either, whereas some are saying that they found it to be forced.
I really liked the episode, and I only felt that the second episode of Enemy Within fell a bit short of expectations set by the first episode. The rest of the episodes in the Season, episode 4 included, have really stood out to me. I'm really excited and looking forward to seeing how the Season ends.
I loved the fourth episode. But I do hafta agree with some people on this thread. There's something off about the villain arc of John's story. It's not as well done as the vigilante end.
Also, why you gotta make us feel bad for not believing in John telltale? All I was doin' was bein all like 'no John, I don't think this was self-defense' and all the sudden he goes off to kill a bunch of people while blamin my Bruce... now my Bruce thinks its his fault... what up telltale...? Why u gotta do that?
I really enjoyed episode 4 as well. I read so many comics as a kid that all of these stories are cliché to me, so that aspect doesn't bother me. Yeah, it may not have been unique, but unique doesn't usually mean "good". There's a reason a lot of things are rarely done. I've made peace with that.
As for the heavy hand in dealing with John's transition, I don't think we know what we think we know. That's kind of how it's always been with the Joker since the 80's. We don't know what's the truth, what's a lie. We don't know his past, we don't know what he's done when we're not around. Was this a character transition or is this how he's always been? We don't know.
This is how I've viewed things. I'm also not one of the people that sits and thinks about what the next episode may bring, so I'm never truly disappointed episode to episode. I just look back at the games after they're finished, and decide what I think about it. Maybe this reason is why I don't feel too strongly about anything right now. That, and I believe a season needs high episodes and low episodes.
Pacing is important, but so is storytelling and exposition. I'd rather have an episode that feels like it drags followed by an episode of flooring it, than multiple highs and lows within multiple episodes. Pacing will always be an issue when you're dealing with a 10hr story-driven game. It's too long to just keep it simple and go for broke. Keeping the player invested while dealing exposition is tricky, but Telltale has done it successfully before. I don't feel this franchise has had the best success with it, so that's why I prefer to just look back at the season as a whole.
IMO, this is the best epsiode of the Batman Series so far. Absolute perfection, enjoyed every minute of it. I'm glad TTG had courage to make… more Joker into a vigilante... Let's just pray it'll stay that way. Also, the action sequence in the beginning was amazing!
Good job, Telltale.
I actually do buy it. John was caught in a room with a bunch of murdered agents. He claims it to have been self-defense. Since John knows Bruce is Batman, if Bruce doesn't believe him John will (rightly) assume that Bruce will try to take him in. I can see how a moment like that will cause John to hate Bruce. Especially after all the trust John had for him.
I loved the fourth episode. But I do hafta agree with some people on this thread. There's something off about the villain arc of John's stor… morey. It's not as well done as the vigilante end.
Also, why you gotta make us feel bad for not believing in John telltale? All I was doin' was bein all like 'no John, I don't think this was self-defense' and all the sudden he goes off to kill a bunch of people while blamin my Bruce... now my Bruce thinks its his fault... what up telltale...? Why u gotta do that?
Comments
Right, because an episode where your choices matter more than in any other they've ever done so far and an episode with amazingly written story and characters is just pure trash because it's just an hour and twenty minutes. Goes to show that people will always complain even if they get exactly what they asked for. Wolf Among Us had 2 episodes that were just as long as this episode, Batman S1's second episode is the same length as well but somehow this one is the one that crossed the line. Yet in this one, the replay value is three times more potent than in any other eps I've mentioned. You feel ripped off? Just because one episode's length is below your ideal standard? Sorry, but I don't think that you fully appreciate the work that's been put into these episodes, especially when you compare them to Telltale's other games. They have done an amazing job with every episode so far and What Ails You is no different. It's my personal second favorite episode so far.
Rush John into becoming the bad guy without any evolution? I don't know what John you met, but in my opinion his descent into darkness has been dragged out for as long as possible. Even more so in the vigilante ending, where he only becomes determined to hunt down the Agency after they betray him.
He doesn't become evil for no reason like you imply. Him killing the agents at the funhouse? That's not him becoming the Joker, that's just a show of the real things John is capable of when he's pushed to the edge, just like he can reveal in episode 3. Every season of this episode, he comes closer and closer to madness. And it's up to you, the player, to bring him back or push him over. He's been betrayed by nearly everyone and you're his final switch - he's testing you at the funhouse, seeing if you really care, if you ever did. Betraying his trust in that moment or in the moments later on the bridge is what finally causes him to snap and become who he really feels he is.
In my opinion, that's not very poorly done, that's done exactly like people hoped it would. If he had been a manipulator, pulling the strings this entire time, don't you think it would utterly and completely ruin the premise and purpose of his character? How would your influence affect him in any way if that was the case? Plus, that's something people have called out from the start, it would be very predictable and unoriginal and I'm glad that's not the case.
Gordon being gone is somewhat disappointing but Catwoman had her part in this episode and her part in this story is not really that important anyway and I'd hardly compare her treatment in this episode to the treatment she had in S1 E4. There she was just completely useless.
Oh come on now, the quality of this episode is not comparable to the quality of any episode from New Frontier, not even close. Plus Ties That Bind Part 2 wasn't that bad.
What are you talking about, he's been insane since Season 1, he literally made a cut on a guy's face just so he would go crazy and start killing people, and if you don't stop the fight it is mentioned how Zsasz killed like 2 employees of Arkham, people fell so quickly for his lies and puppy eyes.
TT has been getting these episodes out fairly quickly so I'm assuming we'll get a late February release. I also hope the finale is as long as episode 1, if not longer. There's a lot of loose threads that still need to be tied up. Then again, a cliffhanger would pretty much guarantee a third season unless TT forgets about it coughGameofThronescough
I didn't say he wasn't insane? Even so, he cut Zsasz's face so you could escape Arkham, not because he wanted to. Sure, he enjoyed it, but come on, Zsasz was hardly a good guy. I never said John was normal, but he isn't completely mad or psychopathic until you decide to not trust him. He's not a bad guy until then.
In episode 1 of this Season John said that Doctor Joan Leland signed his release papers.
Oh please, where the hell did I say it was pure trash? I admitted there were good parts but that the length and the fact that half the characters are thrown aside and forgotten left me feeling ripped off, and rightfully so. The roster is so full of villains and allies this season yet hardly anyone except John and Avesta get any amount of decent screentime.
Why are you bringing up episodes that are years old? And yes, the length of those episodes was also unacceptable especially in cases where fans waiting nearly a third of a year for them to release. Episode length has been a major complaint from players for a while now so you bringing up older episodes is a cop out.
If you actually paid attention to anything I post around here you'd know damn well that I appreciate the fuck out of Telltale and their games, but I'm also gonna call them out when I see things that are completely regressive to what they need to be doing. I'm glad you enjoyed the episode so much but there are perfectly valid complaints here such as the inconsistent and short episode lengths and the fact that many, many characters and subplots are being forgotten and thrown aside. You cannot possibly tell me that the episode wouldn't have benefitted immensely from another hour or even 30 minutes of gameplay.
I don't really get hating this episode tbh. It was obviously a "John Episode". Could it have been a little longer? Sure. But considering TT recently downsized, and a lot of employees probably had time off for the holidays we should be thankful they managed to get this episode to us in January instead of complaining. We could've had to wait two months instead of one. Plus, since the focus was on John and the Pact was taken down this episode what else were we really supposed to see?
Sure, they could've shoehorned Gordon in, but he was just dismissed by Waller, and like I said it was a John-centric episode. Bane was never really meant to be anything other than a constant threat, and things with Freeze were left on a great note for the finale or even a third season.
TT also did a great job of positioning Waller into a fully antagonistic role this episode. All things considered this was a great episode. Complaining because "side character #3" wasn't shown or because of the short length is just being nit picky for the sake of being nit picky imo.
Ok so, episode 1 John's only scene is him wanting Bruce to meet his "friends" episode 2 comes and now we meet John's friends and we see he is only really there because he is in love with Harley. Episode 3, again we see is only there for Harley and now Bruce as well. Now episode 4 comes and he is sad about Harley, we see he killed a ton of agents that is implied he isnt telling the full truth about it being self defense by the bullet holes in their backs, and then is out here on a bridge blowing shit up, so in other words, yes he suddenly reaches this point rapid fire in the last 15 minutes rather than a gradual decent into his insanity. Obviously John isnt sane, but its poorly done because all his scenes are just very small "oh this seems bad for John because it could lead to him being the Joker" and then it goes "O FUCK HE KILLIN PEOPLE NOW B!!!" so its really not gradual at all. Its why Freeze and Bane just go "bye guys" at the very start of the episode and why Harley is not a big part of the episode, they just needed to make an excuse for John to be the main bad guy. They could have done a way better job with it, make each episode his decent way more noticeable rather than John just going "theres a voice in my head ;("
John being a mastermind could be predictable, but at least it makes sense. Telltale just ignored S1's ending involving John, that plus it would at least make John's sudden rush to make him the main bad guy make more sense to just happen due to it being a reveal that he was bad from the start. Also, this is Telltale there isnt going to be any real noticeable factors for Vigilante Joker and Villain Joker, just one with have Harley and probs wear different outfits.
Yes I know that, but we see John was outside of Arkham just a few days after that entire fight at Arkham, so I think its more safe to assume he escaped rather than being released.
Slightly hyperbolic of me, you didn't say it was pure trash but if you're feeling "ripped off" then you obviously don't think the episode was worth the price which tells me you're thinking it was below average and I just can't see why. You did say Telltale went "fuck it" and that they "shoveled it out" and I obviously don't mean to take you word by word but I simply feel the necessity to defend Telltale because I strongly disagree with what you're saying.
Episode 1 was the longest episode by far and yes, it was very good but if I had to decide which episode I'd want to replay, The Enigma would be at the bottom of the list. There's just not enough variation and different scenarios that make me want to sit through the 2 hours needed to finish it. (plus that annoying bug with the Riddler's safe) Episodes 3/4 are the ones I'd pick because there's simply so much variability and so much freedom of choice that I consider them to be far superior. I find replayability to be more important than sole episode length so maybe that's why our viewpoints differ so much. Because when I play through all the different scenes and all the different variations of episode 4, I easily get about 2-3 hours of content. The only parts of episode 1 that are worth replaying are the Eli/Mori choices and the section with Avesta at the end. That's about 20 minutes of different scenes. Episode 4 is doing far better on that front.
As for forgotten characters, Avesta barely had any screentime in episodes 2 and 3, whereas Tiffany has roughly the same amount of screentime in every episode and Selina had most of episode 3 dedicated to her with decent time in episode 4. Gordon is the only one who I feel is truly missing but I don't think the quality of What Ails You suffers because of it.
I brought the years old episodes up because I still think they are of some relevance when judging the quality of an episode. Especially when it comes to the short ones. I get that shorter episodes are generally not well received but from what I've read, people really liked Bat1Ep2 even when it was the shortest one by far. Just thought it's worth mentioning.
I read your posts, you do have some solid ideas that I very much agree with but I feel you're way too harsh on this episode because one of the main complaints people have had with Telltale is that choices don't matter. Well they do now and I believe that's something we should take into account. I'd rather have shorter but more diverse episodes than longer ones that don't have as many scenarios. Of course I'd be most happy with long episodes with the diversity of episode 4 but sometimes there are sacrifices that have to be made. And still, one short episode hardly matters when you have three (or four with ep5) long ones. Not something to be feeling ripped off for, surely.
I could be remembering things wrong but didn’t John or his doctor say he was as the asylum voluntarily?
I’m not exactly sure how asylums/mental hospitals work but if that was the case i think it would give him more freedom as to how long he would spend in there so it’s possible he left by his own choice.
Good point! It's certainly possible.
I don't see him killing those agents immediately equaling him becoming bad, from what we've seen of the Agency, I honestly believe he's telling the truth. His reactions and actions on the bridge if you trust him are proof of this. I believe the agents either tried to attack him or threatened Harley and that's what caused him to snap. It doesn't matter from my perspective nearly as much as it matters from yours.
What matters is whether the only friend John has left betrays him or believes him. If one chooses the former, John has no reason to behave good anymore and treats Harley as his true ally, meaning he'll accept her methods and use whatever means necessary to hunt you down for betraying him. He's lost everyone and begins to see the world as rotten and unjust, as a one big joke. He does this of his own volition and beliefs, not because of some voice. He lets the beast inside him loose and becomes his inner dark self.
One the other hand, if you trust him, he doesn't become anything near as bad as the villain he could become, instead he chooses Batman as his only true ally and does things he considers to be just. When he sees the true face of the Agency, he vows to hunt them down and bring them to justice. He only detonates the bridge because they push him to do it, not because he wanted to. He does say, "That's what I want to see" after he blows the bridge up, but he only means it in a sense that the Agency is getting what they deserve. The two Jokers are completely, completely different from one another so I don't see why you're so negative about the choices mattering. They already do.
Season 1 said John didnt even have an official record for when he was put in Arkham but that he was just always in Arkham and no one is even sure where he came from or who he really was (thus John Doe name) , not that he chose to stay there.
Again, the whole scene where we find John surrounded by the dead bodies is what starts the entire rush to just put him into the main antagonist role in episode 5. And it really does matter from a story perspective. Say he is telling the truth, it was 100% self defense. So now John through the entirety of this season has done nothing evil or truly terribly wrong but even though he would be innocent he then goes to the bridge and attacks. Basically for a scene to just be off screen that pretty much kick starts the push for him to become Joker to not even define if he did something bad or not just for him then to go and do something bad, its just stupid.
Again, through out the season John just talks about a voice in his head that he feels is telling him to break out and do bad things. If John only cared about being betrayed, then you think he wouldnt go save Harley after Bruce betrayed him, because Harley also betrayed him so I doubt that was his motivation. And again, vigilante and villain John are the same. Like, thats just the truth really, both want to do the same thing just one also wants to get rid of Batman. However, its pretty obvious that if you get vigilante John when we interact with him we'll just tell him we dont agree with what he's doing and then he'll be against us, and thus we all have the same Joker now except for a small scene change. Also the vigilante ending its so forced its stupid. John does everything right, and then says he doesnt want to give the agency the virus, so then Waller decides to just shoot him on the spot, despite the fact it could break the virus open and get people infected which was exactly what they didnt want, so it serves no poruse other than PLOT to force Joker to want to kill everyone. They just make Waller try to kill him instead of just talking for longer than 10 seconds so he has to become Joker still.
Dude you're really just making it sound like John was just good old harmless John that could never do anything wrong and TT just shoehorned in the dead agents and POOF JOHN IS BAD NOW. John was always dangerous ever since S1, he was just less dangerous when compared to Harley, Bane and Freeze and was pretty much just helping out The Pact due to his love for Harley and to find out who he was. In S1 he has a random violent outburst and cuts Victor without a second thought just to help Bruce escape. If you don't agree to John's promise the codex even has Bruce say something like "there was something unnerving about his smile, I couldn't bring myself to trust him" or whatever.
Now in S2 he's much more like a lost puppy, which actually isn't that hard to believe. In S1 Arkham was pretty much his kingdom, but in the "real world" he has no idea where he fits or how to behave and is pretty much just with The Pact to gain Harley's favor. But he's still excited by acts of violence, and doesn't think twice about whacking Bullock over the head with a tire iron. Then, after everything goes down in episode 4 he's completely distressed and angry over Harley, and pissed at Bruce for what he perceives as bad advice.
After he kills the agents he's even more distressed, angry, and confused. John has been shown to be mentally unstable from the start, this idea that his change to Vigilante or Villain was oh so poorly planned out or implemented because it took 15 minutes or whatever is just nit picky when John was never shown to NOT be dangerous or unstable in earlier episodes.
You can think about it like this.
S1 John: He's in his home turf of Arkham Asylum, and even though he's "making progress" he's still batshit crazy.
S2 John: He's more of a fish out of water, trying to learn his place in the world but still...HE'S BATSHIT CRAZY.
When we were waiting for A New Frontier Episode 5 to release, we expected it to be over 2 hours long because there were lots of loose thread that need to be tied up, but they didn’t bother. So don’t get your hopes up as ANF Episode 5 was just over an hour.
Heh, you said bat.
It's so hard to not make accidental Bat-puns it's ridiculous lol
I never said John wasnt dangerous, but you cant go from "John cut someone once and also hit someone" to "John kills 20 people" also that is half my problem with John's transformation in Season 2. Season 1 already showed he pretty much "was" Joker already, with him starting that fight, but also because the end of season 1 shows John literally making threats towards Batman/Bruce, just for that to be forgotten and replaced with a John who suddenly is a follower instead of some independent person who was going to go after Batman/Bruce. This is half the reason why I thought there would be a bigger reveal for John and his complete transformation, but instead its just "o idk lets just forget about that scene and just make him kill a ton of people now because we are running out of time" Its just really underwhelming, John in S2 seems to be almost separate from S1 John. If they were going to just remove John's original plans from S1 to try something new with John in S2, just for it to be an underwhelming "he killed people off screen and now he's finally going overboard" with absolutely nothing else and not explaining what was with that ending scene from S1, it all just comes out as sloppy and not that well done.
Well I know lots of people wanted John to be some kind of mastermind that was secretly playing everyone, Bruce included but I actually prefer the trying to figure himself out version TT went with. I wouldn't put too much stock into the final scene of S1, since John's whole obsession with Bruce originally stemmed from him seeing something darker in him. End of S1 John is basically just: "I see the same kind of darkness in Bruce/Batman that I see in myself, and we're going to have SO MUCH FUN TOGETHER." It doesn't have to mean he's some master manipulator playing dumb with everyone. He really was just a guy trying to figure out who he was, and depending on your choice he either becomes a Batman wannabe or murderous psychopath.
Hey, don't call them ridiculous, watch your battitude.
The first episode of this season was over 2 hours, while every ANF episode had almost the same length. I don’t know why people have to bring ANF for everything...
You guys really think John is going to be your best bud in taking down Waller?
Yes, the Agency must be stopped from doing whatever they're doing (even though I think we might fail on that), but John is also in the wrong too guys! His methods so far are quite questionable. Shooting random Agency grunts (possibly unprovoked?) Blowing up a bridge? Yeah, Batman won't like that.
We're gonna need to have a talk, Mr. Doe. A long one.
These are my exact thoughts, I was incredibly impressed with the opening scene in the blacksite, but after that it fell short.
I (evidently) am in the minority, but I really liked the fourth episode. As others said, I found the short length a bit meh, but that's about the extent of if. I didn't really find a whole lot of John's transition to be as ham-fisted as some described, and I even actually became somewhat attached and empathetic to John whereas I felt that earlier episodes tried too hard to play up the angle of John trying to befriend Bruce.
I didn't have problems with how the Agency caused John to snap either, whereas some are saying that they found it to be forced.
I really liked the episode, and I only felt that the second episode of Enemy Within fell a bit short of expectations set by the first episode. The rest of the episodes in the Season, episode 4 included, have really stood out to me. I'm really excited and looking forward to seeing how the Season ends.
I look forward to a future season 3 and that includes a potential romance between Iman Avesta and bruce in it, that's all.
I loved the fourth episode. But I do hafta agree with some people on this thread. There's something off about the villain arc of John's story. It's not as well done as the vigilante end.
Also, why you gotta make us feel bad for not believing in John telltale? All I was doin' was bein all like 'no John, I don't think this was self-defense' and all the sudden he goes off to kill a bunch of people while blamin my Bruce... now my Bruce thinks its his fault... what up telltale...? Why u gotta do that?
I really enjoyed episode 4 as well. I read so many comics as a kid that all of these stories are cliché to me, so that aspect doesn't bother me. Yeah, it may not have been unique, but unique doesn't usually mean "good". There's a reason a lot of things are rarely done. I've made peace with that.
As for the heavy hand in dealing with John's transition, I don't think we know what we think we know. That's kind of how it's always been with the Joker since the 80's. We don't know what's the truth, what's a lie. We don't know his past, we don't know what he's done when we're not around. Was this a character transition or is this how he's always been? We don't know.
This is how I've viewed things. I'm also not one of the people that sits and thinks about what the next episode may bring, so I'm never truly disappointed episode to episode. I just look back at the games after they're finished, and decide what I think about it. Maybe this reason is why I don't feel too strongly about anything right now. That, and I believe a season needs high episodes and low episodes.
Pacing is important, but so is storytelling and exposition. I'd rather have an episode that feels like it drags followed by an episode of flooring it, than multiple highs and lows within multiple episodes. Pacing will always be an issue when you're dealing with a 10hr story-driven game. It's too long to just keep it simple and go for broke. Keeping the player invested while dealing exposition is tricky, but Telltale has done it successfully before. I don't feel this franchise has had the best success with it, so that's why I prefer to just look back at the season as a whole.
We'll see.
Wouldn't it be great guys if the last episode was 2 or more hours long? I'd be so happy.
I prefered the 3rd episode over this one, but I still loved it
Better be man... 1hour it's a joke
No wonder your girl is not satisfied.
I actually do buy it. John was caught in a room with a bunch of murdered agents. He claims it to have been self-defense. Since John knows Bruce is Batman, if Bruce doesn't believe him John will (rightly) assume that Bruce will try to take him in. I can see how a moment like that will cause John to hate Bruce. Especially after all the trust John had for him.
Will John's fate in What Ails You most likely affect Harley's amount of screentime?
I hope not. I'd say if the vigilante ending happened she'll be looking for revenge in episode 5 and we may potentially get to fight her.
And I'm just here hoping for more Alfred screentime...