My Bruce has already chosen Selina. In the first season, Selina was aggressive and selfish on the surface. However, despite her perceived shallowness, she seemed to care for others. She was also intelligent, having read through the Gita Govinda and many classical novels. She also had a sense of honor, believing that she should repay favors, regardless of how big or small they were. She even saved Bruce's life and takes him to her apartment to recover. To be honest, if Selina has had past experiences, they can affect her present mindset. This is a proven fact. It was even mentioned that she once had someone close to her, which means that she no longer has that person close to her anymore. What kind of physiological effect that has on a person varies, and for Selina, it may have negatively effected her. Memories of experience influence behavior. For example, Harley was affected by her past. Her father struggled with his mental health, causing her to suffer a mental breakdown, quit her jobs, and become a criminal. Should she turn to a life of crime due to losing someone close to her? No, but it explains to us why she is the way that she is.
In the second season, Selina gives her condolences on Lucius' death. She asks for something in return for working together: a relationship. That's what she wants. She cares about Bruce. The way that she feels around him is like that she can be better. She even said it herself. She came back to Gotham for redemption. She even feels horrified after watching what happened to you at the end, when trying to protect her. She is worried that you might die. To say that she doesn't care about anyone but herself is unfair.
The accusations made against Selina, that she has "little to no morals or feelings", is heinous. She has shown to have care for others besides herself. There's so much that can be said about her character, really. Do I agree with everything that she has said or done? No, but I see that she has redeeming qualities in her. More than people will probably give her credit for having. She just has a fear of caring for others, fearing that those who she cares about might be lost tragically, like whoever she has lost before.
I'll never forgive Selina for the part she played in Harvey's downfall. Doesn't matter to me what she tries to say or do to redeem herself now. I put Harvey ahead of her in season 1 and i'm doing the same thing for John and Gordon in season 2.
My Bruce has already chosen Selina. In the first season, Selina was aggressive and selfish on the surface. However, despite her perceived sh… moreallowness, she seemed to care for others. She was also intelligent, having read through the Gita Govinda and many classical novels. She also had a sense of honor, believing that she should repay favors, regardless of how big or small they were. She even saved Bruce's life and takes him to her apartment to recover. To be honest, if Selina has had past experiences, they can affect her present mindset. This is a proven fact. It was even mentioned that she once had someone close to her, which means that she no longer has that person close to her anymore. What kind of physiological effect that has on a person varies, and for Selina, it may have negatively effected her. Memories of experience influence behavior. For example, Harley was affected by her past. Her father struggled with his mental health, causing h… [view original content]
I guess that Bruce shouldn't be forgiven for the death of Lucius, right? Considering that he allowed him to look at a device from the Riddler, who was a known dangerous criminal.
Either way, you can do that, but I won't do it. Just as I know that many others will, especially those who have replied to this thread (like yourself, multiple times), since there's a clear bias towards Harley. Players can choose to have Harley with her chaos, trouble, instability, and violent outbursts whenever something doesn't go her way if they want. That's completely up to you. John, who has fallen in love with her due to her violent actions and pensions, will probably become just like her. You can have that if you want it.
I'll never forgive Selina for the part she played in Harvey's downfall. Doesn't matter to me what she tries to say or do to redeem herself now. I put Harvey ahead of her in season 1 and i'm doing the same thing for John and Gordon in season 2.
While i agree with you to a point about Selina I don't thinks its fair to really blame Selina for
her role in what happens to Harvey. Especially considering this is a mentally unstable man who's breakdown was bound to happen sooner or later.Plus Harvey had plenty of chances to get help for his illness but chose not to due to pride. Which is why he wanted Bruce to keep quiet about it when he first started seeing signs of it.
I'll never forgive Selina for the part she played in Harvey's downfall. Doesn't matter to me what she tries to say or do to redeem herself now. I put Harvey ahead of her in season 1 and i'm doing the same thing for John and Gordon in season 2.
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not fair to blame Selina for the actions of another person. Harvey's actions were his own, independent of outside influences. There's so much more that I could say about it. However, if Selina can be blamed for Harvey's actions, then Bruce is just as much at fault for spending the night at her apartment.
While i agree with you to a point about Selina I don't thinks its fair to really blame Selina for
her role in what happens to Harvey. Es… morepecially considering this is a mentally unstable man who's breakdown was bound to happen sooner or later.Plus Harvey had plenty of chances to get help for his illness but chose not to due to pride. Which is why he wanted Bruce to keep quiet about it when he first started seeing signs of it.
You guys have one weeeeiirrdd fetish with mentally unstable women. My Bruce went with Selina. I've been a BatCat fan since forever so the option between Selina and Harley was a no-brainer.
Selina has always been--regardless of any comic adaption or movie--insecure about her feelings. The games she plays with Bruce is just a way to ignore the real issue at hand: She likes Bruce. It made sense for Selina to leave Gotham at the end of season 1 since that's what she does when she starts to get too close to someone. She pulls back and retreats. Sure, she left Gotham because things were getting out of hand with Lady Arkham but her leaving was also a way to pull back from the feelings she has for Bruce.
What is also interesting to note is that one of Selina's reasons why she returned to Gotham was to get revenge at the Pact for killing Lucius. Now tell me, why would a woman who loves no one but herself, want to extract revenge on a group because they killed some random worker at Wayne Enterprises? Sure, any person would be a bit sad that a person had to die like that but would anyone else care to the extent that Selina did? Selina is a loving person when she wants to be. Just look at the way she talked about Alfred if Bruce choose not to warn her about the GCPD issue. She cares for an elderly man who knows little to nothing about her.
Selina is taking a big leap forward with her character development if Bruce decided to go into a relationship with her. By going into a relationship with her, she is facing her fear of getting close to someone and is trying to conquer it.
Now I'm not saying that Selina is perfect. There is something that is bothering me about her supposed "friendship" with Ed. A lot of things aren't adding up at the moment but I guess they'll be released in due time. My guess is that Selina is hiding something.
See, here's the difference. As Bruce I can decide to forgive Selina or not. I don't have the option to play as Tiffany and decide if I want to forgive Bruce or not.
And while I prefer Harley over Selina, I've said it before. I didn't sell out Selina for Harley. I sold her out for two reasons. Firstly, for John. I like having John as a friend more then I do having Selina as an ally. Secondly, because I'll do anything to stay undercover and get the job done. That includes selling out Selina, bashing a guy with a pipe, calling Freeze's actions impressive and denying ever seeing Timothy. (The guy in the chair)
That's why there are consequences to actions.
(Spoiler)
Either way, you can do that, but I won't do it. Just as I know that many other… mores will, especially those who have replied to this thread (like yourself, multiple times), since there's a clear bias towards Harley. Players can choose to have Harley with her chaos, trouble, instability, and violent outbursts whenever something doesn't go her way if they want. That's completely up to you. John, who has fallen in love with her due to her violent actions and pensions, will probably become just like her. You can have that if you want it.
Geez, imagine how Selina must be feeling if you take the blame for her. She finally opens up to someone, starts a relationship with them (depending on your choices) and then that person gets put in a giant ice-box and is likely to die. I mean, obviously, Bruce will live, but Selina must be horrified, just like her relationship end screen states.
You guys have one weeeeiirrdd fetish with mentally unstable women. My Bruce went with Selina. I've been a BatCat fan since forever so the op… moretion between Selina and Harley was a no-brainer.
Selina has always been--regardless of any comic adaption or movie--insecure about her feelings. The games she plays with Bruce is just a way to ignore the real issue at hand: She likes Bruce. It made sense for Selina to leave Gotham at the end of season 1 since that's what she does when she starts to get too close to someone. She pulls back and retreats. Sure, she left Gotham because things were getting out of hand with Lady Arkham but her leaving was also a way to pull back from the feelings she has for Bruce.
What is also interesting to note is that one of Selina's reasons why she returned to Gotham was to get revenge at the Pact for killing Lucius. Now tell me, why would a woman who loves no one but herself, want to extract revenge on a group becau… [view original content]
Imagine how she would've felt if Bruce abandoned her after starting a relationship.
I'm not trying to tell anyone which choice is better. I was only giving my opinion. If you want to go with Harley, go ahead. That's why we have choices in the game.
And Bruce has plot armor so I'm not worried about him dying.
Geez, imagine how Selina must be feeling if you take the blame for her. She finally opens up to someone, starts a relationship with them (de… morepending on your choices) and then that person gets put in a giant ice-box and is likely to die. I mean, obviously, Bruce will live, but Selina must be horrified, just like her relationship end screen states.
Geez, imagine how Selina must be feeling if you take the blame for her. She finally opens up to someone, starts a relationship with them (de… morepending on your choices) and then that person gets put in a giant ice-box and is likely to die. I mean, obviously, Bruce will live, but Selina must be horrified, just like her relationship end screen states.
I think it's even worse if Bruce decides to sell her as the mole. She finally decides that she doesn't want to be alone. She wants a partner who can trust and who can see her as more than what she's been seen during her whole life. As she said, she wants to be better and she wants to have someone she can depend on. The fact that Bruce, (the very person who inspires her to do better and one of the few who are really close to her) betrays her must be devastating.
Geez, imagine how Selina must be feeling if you take the blame for her. She finally opens up to someone, starts a relationship with them (de… morepending on your choices) and then that person gets put in a giant ice-box and is likely to die. I mean, obviously, Bruce will live, but Selina must be horrified, just like her relationship end screen states.
Thank you! Yes, Selina even cared for Alfred, someone who has questioned her motives. She may not know that information, but she has still showed him nothing but respect. Not only that, but she is clearly disappointed if Bruce chooses to remain as friends. You explained Selina's reasons behind, especially the reason why she played games with Bruce. She honestly probably plays games with Bruce as a way of expressing an interest in him (namely, being flirtatious). Harley, on the other hand, is using John as a "toy" and has assaulted others for fun. What fascination people have with her is beyond me. Besides, if people actually value their friendship with John, as they say, I don't know why you would pursue a relationship with Harley anyway.
You guys have one weeeeiirrdd fetish with mentally unstable women. My Bruce went with Selina. I've been a BatCat fan since forever so the op… moretion between Selina and Harley was a no-brainer.
Selina has always been--regardless of any comic adaption or movie--insecure about her feelings. The games she plays with Bruce is just a way to ignore the real issue at hand: She likes Bruce. It made sense for Selina to leave Gotham at the end of season 1 since that's what she does when she starts to get too close to someone. She pulls back and retreats. Sure, she left Gotham because things were getting out of hand with Lady Arkham but her leaving was also a way to pull back from the feelings she has for Bruce.
What is also interesting to note is that one of Selina's reasons why she returned to Gotham was to get revenge at the Pact for killing Lucius. Now tell me, why would a woman who loves no one but herself, want to extract revenge on a group becau… [view original content]
Maybe that speaks more to the character of your Bruce (basically, you). If you prefer Harley over Selina, have you been flirtatious with her? And if you have, then why would you do that if you like having John as a friend?
See, here's the difference. As Bruce I can decide to forgive Selina or not. I don't have the option to play as Tiffany and decide if I want … moreto forgive Bruce or not.
And while I prefer Harley over Selina, I've said it before. I didn't sell out Selina for Harley. I sold her out for two reasons. Firstly, for John. I like having John as a friend more then I do having Selina as an ally. Secondly, because I'll do anything to stay undercover and get the job done. That includes selling out Selina, bashing a guy with a pipe, calling Freeze's actions impressive and denying ever seeing Timothy. (The guy in the chair)
I just relate more to the villains anyway.
Yes I did. Why? To make her happy. That's another part of the job involved in staying undercover. Making all the members happy. They want to hear something in particular? I say it. They want me to do something in particular? I do it. Even if they didn't, i still would go along with them. I like being bad.
And I did no damage to John by flirting with her. Considering that I've been pro John the whole time, the game recognized that I helped John get the attention he wanted from Harley by having him hand over the device to Harley and he was happy. He was happy, Harley was happy, and I got to do bad things.
Maybe that speaks more to the character of your Bruce (basically, you). If you prefer Harley over Selina, have you been flirtatious with her? And if you have, then why would you do that if you like having John as a friend?
Again, maybe that speaks to your character. Maybe your Bruce is more of a criminal than hero, especially if he (you) "likes" being bad. And, you did no damage to John by flirting with Harley? Are you sure about that? John gets jealous if Bruce drinks Harley's slushie. He also gets jealous if Bruce makes sexual advances on Harley in the elevator of Wayne Enterprises. You clearly did damage to John. A friend doesn't flirt with his friend's love interest. And if they do, then they're not really much of a friend. It's as simple as that. You can justify those actions, but it still doesn't make it right.
Yes I did. Why? To make her happy. That's another part of the job involved in staying undercover. Making all the members happy. They want to… more hear something in particular? I say it. They want me to do something in particular? I do it. Even if they didn't, i still would go along with them. I like being bad.
And I did no damage to John by flirting with her. Considering that I've been pro John the whole time, the game recognized that I helped John get the attention he wanted from Harley by having him hand over the device to Harley and he was happy. He was happy, Harley was happy, and I got to do bad things.
It still doesn't make any sense, though. It doesn't make any more sense than when Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer who raped and murdered more than 30 women, was put on trial in 1979, women from all over the world sent him fan mail. Many of these letters included nude pictures, and some of them even contained marriage proposals. How does that make sense? It doesn't. Unfortunately, this is a common thing, but it literally makes no sense. It even has a name for itself: "hybristophilia".
The choices made in this game speaks to all of our characters. It's tailored to our choices. There are no 'right' and 'wrong' choices, especially in regards to relationship status. It's all in how you want to play. After Selena's second betrayal, I stole from her. I fought her in Wayne Manor, and I went along with John's plans right away. I was really impressed with the dialogue resulting from all of that. The performances from all parties, even the minor quip or two from Alfred generated from that exchange, was utterly brilliant.
I'm not in a relationship with Harley, but I am very curious as to how far TellTale will let us push that envelope. Almost as curious as I am to see where this relationship leads with John. You know what's really interesting is that after John steals that laptop, and gives it to Batman? Bruce doesn't ask him what he did with it, or to give it to him. This incarnation of Batman is really the absolute worst at attempting to maintain a secret identity lol.
Again, maybe that speaks to your character. Maybe your Bruce is more of a criminal than hero, especially if he (you) "likes" being bad. And,… more you did no damage to John by flirting with Harley? Are you sure about that? John gets jealous if Bruce drinks Harley's slushie. He also gets jealous if Bruce makes sexual advances on Harley in the elevator of Wayne Enterprises. You clearly did damage to John. A friend doesn't flirt with his friend's love interest. And if they do, then they're not really much of a friend. It's as simple as that. You can justify those actions, but it still doesn't make it right.
Fuck here comes the serial killer/savage monsters comparisons. Oh well whatever, Harley isn't going around Gotham murdering random innocent men and women, as far as we've seen she only kills those who get in her way which for most part have been armed guys. She's not a psychopath. She's also way less ruthless than Bane or Freeze plus she let Tiffany go when she could have just killed her or hurt her. She's not that bad when you take in all the other fellas Batman tangles with. Add in her good looks and charm and it's pretty easy to see why someone would want to stick their shlongs in that hornet's nest. Believe me I despise people who idolize creatures like Bundy or Ramirez. But someone like Harley Quinn can't compare to that, no. Victor Zsasz sure, but not Harley. And after all - it's just a videogame.
It still doesn't make any sense, though. It doesn't make any more sense than when Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer who raped and murde… morered more than 30 women, was put on trial in 1979, women from all over the world sent him fan mail. Many of these letters included nude pictures, and some of them even contained marriage proposals. How does that make sense? It doesn't. Unfortunately, this is a common thing, but it literally makes no sense. It even has a name for itself: "hybristophilia".
I agree with you, that the choices that we make speak to all of our characters. However, most of every choice that we make has moral implications. For example, if I choose to show dignity and respect to women or treat them poorly, that has moral implications to it. There are some choices that have more to do with preference than morality. For instance, if I prefer one food over the other, that's just my preference with no morality involved. I would personally say that there are moral decisions being made. Hence why players experience difficulties with certain decisions.
Although, I think that we can all agree that this incarnation of Batman is the worst at attempting to keep his identity a secret.
The choices made in this game speaks to all of our characters. It's tailored to our choices. There are no 'right' and 'wrong' choices, espec… moreially in regards to relationship status. It's all in how you want to play. After Selena's second betrayal, I stole from her. I fought her in Wayne Manor, and I went along with John's plans right away. I was really impressed with the dialogue resulting from all of that. The performances from all parties, even the minor quip or two from Alfred generated from that exchange, was utterly brilliant.
I'm not in a relationship with Harley, but I am very curious as to how far TellTale will let us push that envelope. Almost as curious as I am to see where this relationship leads with John. You know what's really interesting is that after John steals that laptop, and gives it to Batman? Bruce doesn't ask him what he did with it, or to give it to him. This incarnation of Batman is really the absolute worst at attempting to maintain a secret identity lol.
What's wrong with the comparison? Has Harley not killed people? Are people not attracted to her? It's a fair comparison of the two. Just because she has killed people who have "gotten in her way", it doesn't mean that they weren't innocent. However, I do agree that Bane is much more ruthless than Harley. Although, Bane isn't the topic of discussion here. It's between Selina and Harley. I appreciate that you can at least see how people who idolize men like Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez are, well, mentally unstable(?). No offense to them personally. I respect you for that actually.
Fuck here comes the serial killer/savage monsters comparisons. Oh well whatever, Harley isn't going around Gotham murdering random innocent … moremen and women, as far as we've seen she only kills those who get in her way which for most part have been armed guys. She's not a psychopath. She's also way less ruthless than Bane or Freeze plus she let Tiffany go when she could have just killed her or hurt her. She's not that bad when you take in all the other fellas Batman tangles with. Add in her good looks and charm and it's pretty easy to see why someone would want to stick their shlongs in that hornet's nest. Believe me I despise people who idolize creatures like Bundy or Ramirez. But someone like Harley Quinn can't compare to that, no. Victor Zsasz sure, but not Harley. And after all - it's just a videogame.
It's just a few levels apart for me. "Killing someone" has many subcategories that I don't think are so black and white (ex: brutal murder of a teenager/killing someone in self defense/killing an extremely abusive person out of anger). Harley falls into "Kill or injure anyone who threatens her safety" (example being the Agents in the convoy, Bane's men etc.). And don't get me wrong I do not nor do I think @AnimalBoy see something serious in her, it's more of a flirtatious "physical" relationship.
What's wrong with the comparison? Has Harley not killed people? Are people not attracted to her? It's a fair comparison of the two. Just bec… moreause she has killed people who have "gotten in her way", it doesn't mean that they weren't innocent. However, I do agree that Bane is much more ruthless than Harley. Although, Bane isn't the topic of discussion here. It's between Selina and Harley. I appreciate that you can at least see how people who idolize men like Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez are, well, mentally unstable(?). No offense to them personally. I respect you for that actually.
In a video game, it has questionable implications to it. For a lot of people, they just want to see what happens - not that they'd do any of those things in real life or want to. For those playing for full immersion or role-playing, then they attach morals to the decisions being made. I do prefer to play the same as you do, but there are many that don't.
Is it morally right for Bruce to take his spot in the freezer? It's more of a gray area. Three people had their hand in stealing that laptop :: Selena, Bruce, and John. I don't know what Selena's intentions are aside from a vendetta, and an admission that she had originally planned on working with Riddler. I know that she did supply Lady Arkham with some nasty stuff last season that I had to put an end to. I do know that she doesn't put the citizens of Gotham ahead of her own well being.
Both choices are heroic choices. Sacrifice yourself to spare Selena. Sacrifice Selena for the greater good. It's a choice real life people have made, and will make again - officers, soldiers, ect. Taking out of account our own knowledge of plot armor, is there a right choice? No. Will there be a clear right choice at the start of the next episode? ....probably. I doubt the writers will reflect consequences for putting yourself in that box quite as respectively as the price Selena suffers --- but it should have. I honestly thought Harley had Tiffany, and if we confessed Tiffany would be in Selena's place.
I agree with you, that the choices that we make speak to all of our characters. However, most of every choice that we make has moral implica… moretions. For example, if I choose to show dignity and respect to women or treat them poorly, that has moral implications to it. There are some choices that have more to do with preference than morality. For instance, if I prefer one food over the other, that's just my preference with no morality involved. I would personally say that there are moral decisions being made. Hence why players experience difficulties with certain decisions.
Although, I think that we can all agree that this incarnation of Batman is the worst at attempting to keep his identity a secret.
I do believe that there's a difference between killing someone out of self-defense and premeditating someone's murder. When Harley's life was threatened by Bane's men, she acted in a way to procure her safety. Harley, however, injuring or killing the agents and bystanders is where she could have avoided senselessly killing others. Unfortunately, they just really wanted to recover the Riddler's body for discovering a specific location.
It's just a few levels apart for me. "Killing someone" has many subcategories that I don't think are so black and white (ex: brutal murder o… moref a teenager/killing someone in self defense/killing an extremely abusive person out of anger). Harley falls into "Kill or injure anyone who threatens her safety" (example being the Agents in the convoy, Bane's men etc.). And don't get me wrong I do not nor do I think @AnimalBoy see something serious in her, it's more of a flirtatious "physical" relationship.
Lets not try to sugar coat what Harley does this woman is a sociopath at best who kills people who get in her way regardless if there a threat. Hell she's willing to kill Tiffany a teenage girl over something she had nothing to do with.And even though Im not the biggest cat woman fan Id gladly take her over that psychotic bitch. I cant wait to open up a can of whoop ass on all the members of the pact except hopefully not John.
I do believe that there's a difference between killing someone out of self-defense and premeditating someone's murder. When Harley's life wa… mores threatened by Bane's men, she acted in a way to procure her safety. Harley, however, injuring or killing the agents and bystanders is where she could have avoided senselessly killing others. Unfortunately, they just really wanted to recover the Riddler's body for discovering a specific location.
Well i hav been amused and enjoying watching all u guys point of view. With appreciation out the way first.... Im rocking with Harley. My bruce is Pragmatic cynical realist that likes Harley's bravado and boldness o get what she wants. She only reveals her true self to bruce in private. So yea harley all day.
I can understand if players make different choices from us. Which, it's refreshing to even hear that someone plays the same way as me, one who is looking for a deep and meaningful experience. The only reason why I posted a reply to this thread, is because Selina was being treated unfairly, and Harley had been given a free pass. However, I don't necessarily think that the choices that some players make, they would actually do or want to do in real life. For what it's worth.
Morally speaking, taking the fall and being left and being left in one of Mr. Freeze's cryochambers to die is good. Even in movies, the hero is usually being depicted as one who has sacrificed something for the sake of others, including but limited to their life. You can even see this sacrificed being made in real life scenarios, too. Desmond Doss, a former United States Army corporal, aided wounded soldiers under fire while serving with his platoon in 1944 on Guam and the Philippines. During the Battle Of Okinawa, he saved the lives of 75 wounded infantrymen atop the area known by the 96th Division as the Maeda Escarpment or Hacksaw Ridge. He was wounded four times in Okinawa. That was love for others. He sacrificed his wellbeing to save the lives of others. Could he have been killed? Yes, but he was compelled by love and moved by compassion for others, that he risked his life to save theirs. Fortunately, though, his life didn't end in Okinawa.
Love is sacrificial. Meaning that, if you have love for someone, you're willing to make sacrifices for them. If a husband loves his wife, would he not sacrifice energy, time, and money for her? I'm not talking about having a self-centered attitude about it either. What I mean by "a self-centered attitude" is the husband who gives up golf, hunting, or football to work up brownie points. The husband who basically expects to be paid back, and that if he doesn't get paid back, he stops trying altogether. That's a self-centered attitude. But, sacrificial love isn't motivated by manipulation, it's motivated by something more. If the "right choice" is to be determined by results, then the choice isn't based off of morality anymore, and instead it's based off of profit.
In a video game, it has questionable implications to it. For a lot of people, they just want to see what happens - not that they'd do any of… more those things in real life or want to. For those playing for full immersion or role-playing, then they attach morals to the decisions being made. I do prefer to play the same as you do, but there are many that don't.
Is it morally right for Bruce to take his spot in the freezer? It's more of a gray area. Three people had their hand in stealing that laptop :: Selena, Bruce, and John. I don't know what Selena's intentions are aside from a vendetta, and an admission that she had originally planned on working with Riddler. I know that she did supply Lady Arkham with some nasty stuff last season that I had to put an end to. I do know that she doesn't put the citizens of Gotham ahead of her own well being.
Both choices are heroic choices. Sacrifice yourself to spare Selena. Sacrifice Selena for the greate… [view original content]
When did I sugarcoat Harley's actions? I have already expressed my displeasure for her. As a matter of fact, I defended Selina over Harley in this thread with my initial reply.
Lets not try to sugar coat what Harley does this woman is a sociopath at best who kills people who get in her way regardless if there a … morethreat. Hell she's willing to kill Tiffany a teenage girl over something she had nothing to do with.And even though Im not the biggest cat woman fan Id gladly take her over that psychotic bitch. I cant wait to open up a can of whoop ass on all the members of the pact except hopefully not John.
I apologize it just seems like so many people on the form are trying to downplay how evil Harley and her crew are and,I get it there cool and entertaining but we should accept the facts.
When did I sugarcoat Harley's actions? I have already expressed my displeasure for her. As a matter of fact, I defended Selina over Harley in this thread with my initial reply.
Don't worry about it! In the second episode, I honestly empathized with Harley, having suffered loss myself this year. But, she seemingly has no remorse for her actions, and is taking things out on others. That's not right.
I apologize it just seems like so many people on the form are trying to downplay how evil Harley and her crew are and,I get it there cool and entertaining but we should accept the facts.
I'd love to know what you think about the real me then. I'm not going to lie. I've stolen a girl from a friend in real life before. Guess that makes me a really bad person.
Again, maybe that speaks to your character. Maybe your Bruce is more of a criminal than hero, especially if he (you) "likes" being bad. And,… more you did no damage to John by flirting with Harley? Are you sure about that? John gets jealous if Bruce drinks Harley's slushie. He also gets jealous if Bruce makes sexual advances on Harley in the elevator of Wayne Enterprises. You clearly did damage to John. A friend doesn't flirt with his friend's love interest. And if they do, then they're not really much of a friend. It's as simple as that. You can justify those actions, but it still doesn't make it right.
You know, I've said it before on this board and I'll say it again. I suffer from real life mental illnesses and in turn I can often relate more to characters who also have mental issues. I'm not homicidal, but I would definitely say...I have issues. It's so nice that someone can say that they're fans of Harley, John, doing bad things In VIDEO GAMES and somehow people turn that into conversations involving real life serial killers, what's self centered, what's self sacrificing, love, blah, blah, blah.
Every thread turns to crap because people just can't let the conversation be what it's about. A video game. Everyone's got to psycho analyze everything and turn it into a real life situation.
To whom it may concern:
Please don't bother replying to me. I don't want to be in this conversation anymore.
And, I don't have anything against you personally. But, what I say applies to myself as well. I'm not a good friend if I betray my friend's trust. As for what you have done, did you steal this girl from your friend without having prior knowledge of his attraction to her? That's an important question to know the answer to first. Even if you're a "really bad person", I'm much worse than you think that I think that you are. I have done bad things to people, but I just won't justify those actions. They (as in, my actions) were wrong and I was wrong.
Flirting with Harley makes me a bad friend?
I'd love to know what you think about the real me then. I'm not going to lie. I've stolen a girl from a friend in real life before. Guess that makes me a really bad person.
Well, what I will say since this is clearly directed towards me. A forum is meant to be a place of discussion. We can all discuss the matters. We can all share our opinions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's the point of all of this. We can't discuss matters, share opinions, and have issues with those who do the same. Whether they talk about real life scenarios or not. This thread and our replies were literally about what it's about: a video game. We can incorporate events of the real world to provide further clarity where needed. Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, I'm sorry that you suffer from mental illnesses in real life, and I'm not being sarcastic when saying that.
You know, I've said it before on this board and I'll say it again. I suffer from real life mental illnesses and in turn I can often relate m… moreore to characters who also have mental issues. I'm not homicidal, but I would definitely say...I have issues. It's so nice that someone can say that they're fans of Harley, John, doing bad things In VIDEO GAMES and somehow people turn that into conversations involving real life serial killers, what's self centered, what's self sacrificing, love, blah, blah, blah.
Every thread turns to crap because people just can't let the conversation be what it's about. A video game. Everyone's got to psycho analyze everything and turn it into a real life situation.
To whom it may concern:
Please don't bother replying to me. I don't want to be in this conversation anymore.
Selina.
Harley's cray, cray. She's a murderer when she doesn't need to be. Also I don't think she has an attachment to Bruce, like some people seem to think. I think she flirts with Bruce to drive a wedge between him and John, considering how much John likes Bruce. That friendship is a danger to her power over him. At most she's trying to manipulate Bruce into being another John so she can have two 'toys.' (I'm sure Harley fans are probably okay with that though.)
Bruce deserves better than a Selina season 1 and Harley.
But, Selina has grown as a character in this season and in a great way. She's shown she cares about things. She also wasn't horrible in season 1. If you save Harvey she still saves Bruce from Vicki, showing she understands the decision and doesn't hold it against Bruce, and if you save her she feels guilty and blames herself. She's pretty much all talk about being ruthless. I mean, she was still a b**** but what do you expect from someone who probably had a harsh life?
Plus, I ship Harley and John. Especially after episode 3 and that conversation of 'be yourself.' Creepy and mystical all at once. And hilarious.
Out of respect of AnimalBoy's wishes, I won't directly reply to their response, but it does sadden me that the topic has chased away a member from the conversation. I had hoped to steer it back toward a more live and let play discussion. It is interesting to see how many people choose their paths and why.
What makes these characters so interesting to involve ourselves in is their imperfections. There are no saints here. Selena has twice betrayed Bruce Wayne, and will again. Harley, thus far, hasn't -- but the betrayal there is on Bruce's end as odd as that is to say, and comes with her own set of issues. Can either truly be redeemed? I don't know. I'd hoped so with so many selections last season -- Selena, Harvey, Oz, Vicki. However, I have a feeling that this season, much like last, the best case scenario is still going to be heart ache and separation. After all, at the end of the day, Catwoman still has time to serve for her crimes.
Out of curiosity -- regardless of which is your choice -- if there's an option to turn them over to the GCPD or let them get away :: which will you choose? Does a relationship trump breaking the law and serving the time?
Comments
My Bruce has already chosen Selina. In the first season, Selina was aggressive and selfish on the surface. However, despite her perceived shallowness, she seemed to care for others. She was also intelligent, having read through the Gita Govinda and many classical novels. She also had a sense of honor, believing that she should repay favors, regardless of how big or small they were. She even saved Bruce's life and takes him to her apartment to recover. To be honest, if Selina has had past experiences, they can affect her present mindset. This is a proven fact. It was even mentioned that she once had someone close to her, which means that she no longer has that person close to her anymore. What kind of physiological effect that has on a person varies, and for Selina, it may have negatively effected her. Memories of experience influence behavior. For example, Harley was affected by her past. Her father struggled with his mental health, causing her to suffer a mental breakdown, quit her jobs, and become a criminal. Should she turn to a life of crime due to losing someone close to her? No, but it explains to us why she is the way that she is.
In the second season, Selina gives her condolences on Lucius' death. She asks for something in return for working together: a relationship. That's what she wants. She cares about Bruce. The way that she feels around him is like that she can be better. She even said it herself. She came back to Gotham for redemption. She even feels horrified after watching what happened to you at the end, when trying to protect her. She is worried that you might die. To say that she doesn't care about anyone but herself is unfair.
The accusations made against Selina, that she has "little to no morals or feelings", is heinous. She has shown to have care for others besides herself. There's so much that can be said about her character, really. Do I agree with everything that she has said or done? No, but I see that she has redeeming qualities in her. More than people will probably give her credit for having. She just has a fear of caring for others, fearing that those who she cares about might be lost tragically, like whoever she has lost before.
I'll never forgive Selina for the part she played in Harvey's downfall. Doesn't matter to me what she tries to say or do to redeem herself now. I put Harvey ahead of her in season 1 and i'm doing the same thing for John and Gordon in season 2.
That's why there are consequences to actions.
I guess that Bruce shouldn't be forgiven for the death of Lucius, right? Considering that he allowed him to look at a device from the Riddler, who was a known dangerous criminal.
Either way, you can do that, but I won't do it. Just as I know that many others will, especially those who have replied to this thread (like yourself, multiple times), since there's a clear bias towards Harley. Players can choose to have Harley with her chaos, trouble, instability, and violent outbursts whenever something doesn't go her way if they want. That's completely up to you. John, who has fallen in love with her due to her violent actions and pensions, will probably become just like her. You can have that if you want it.
While i agree with you to a point about Selina I don't thinks its fair to really blame Selina for
her role in what happens to Harvey. Especially considering this is a mentally unstable man who's breakdown was bound to happen sooner or later.Plus Harvey had plenty of chances to get help for his illness but chose not to due to pride. Which is why he wanted Bruce to keep quiet about it when he first started seeing signs of it.
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not fair to blame Selina for the actions of another person. Harvey's actions were his own, independent of outside influences. There's so much more that I could say about it. However, if Selina can be blamed for Harvey's actions, then Bruce is just as much at fault for spending the night at her apartment.
You can argue that the latest choice kind of has you choose between them.
You guys have one weeeeiirrdd fetish with mentally unstable women. My Bruce went with Selina. I've been a BatCat fan since forever so the option between Selina and Harley was a no-brainer.
Selina has always been--regardless of any comic adaption or movie--insecure about her feelings. The games she plays with Bruce is just a way to ignore the real issue at hand: She likes Bruce. It made sense for Selina to leave Gotham at the end of season 1 since that's what she does when she starts to get too close to someone. She pulls back and retreats. Sure, she left Gotham because things were getting out of hand with Lady Arkham but her leaving was also a way to pull back from the feelings she has for Bruce.
What is also interesting to note is that one of Selina's reasons why she returned to Gotham was to get revenge at the Pact for killing Lucius. Now tell me, why would a woman who loves no one but herself, want to extract revenge on a group because they killed some random worker at Wayne Enterprises? Sure, any person would be a bit sad that a person had to die like that but would anyone else care to the extent that Selina did? Selina is a loving person when she wants to be. Just look at the way she talked about Alfred if Bruce choose not to warn her about the GCPD issue. She cares for an elderly man who knows little to nothing about her.
Selina is taking a big leap forward with her character development if Bruce decided to go into a relationship with her. By going into a relationship with her, she is facing her fear of getting close to someone and is trying to conquer it.
Now I'm not saying that Selina is perfect. There is something that is bothering me about her supposed "friendship" with Ed. A lot of things aren't adding up at the moment but I guess they'll be released in due time. My guess is that Selina is hiding something.
See, here's the difference. As Bruce I can decide to forgive Selina or not. I don't have the option to play as Tiffany and decide if I want to forgive Bruce or not.
And while I prefer Harley over Selina, I've said it before. I didn't sell out Selina for Harley. I sold her out for two reasons. Firstly, for John. I like having John as a friend more then I do having Selina as an ally. Secondly, because I'll do anything to stay undercover and get the job done. That includes selling out Selina, bashing a guy with a pipe, calling Freeze's actions impressive and denying ever seeing Timothy. (The guy in the chair)
I just relate more to the villains anyway.
Geez, imagine how Selina must be feeling if you take the blame for her. She finally opens up to someone, starts a relationship with them (depending on your choices) and then that person gets put in a giant ice-box and is likely to die. I mean, obviously, Bruce will live, but Selina must be horrified, just like her relationship end screen states.
Imagine how she would've felt if Bruce abandoned her after starting a relationship.
I'm not trying to tell anyone which choice is better. I was only giving my opinion. If you want to go with Harley, go ahead. That's why we have choices in the game.
And Bruce has plot armor so I'm not worried about him dying.
At the same time it's definite proof Bruce takes her very, very seriously. It only strengthens the bond they have.
I think it's even worse if Bruce decides to sell her as the mole. She finally decides that she doesn't want to be alone. She wants a partner who can trust and who can see her as more than what she's been seen during her whole life. As she said, she wants to be better and she wants to have someone she can depend on. The fact that Bruce, (the very person who inspires her to do better and one of the few who are really close to her) betrays her must be devastating.
Thank you! Yes, Selina even cared for Alfred, someone who has questioned her motives. She may not know that information, but she has still showed him nothing but respect. Not only that, but she is clearly disappointed if Bruce chooses to remain as friends. You explained Selina's reasons behind, especially the reason why she played games with Bruce. She honestly probably plays games with Bruce as a way of expressing an interest in him (namely, being flirtatious). Harley, on the other hand, is using John as a "toy" and has assaulted others for fun. What fascination people have with her is beyond me. Besides, if people actually value their friendship with John, as they say, I don't know why you would pursue a relationship with Harley anyway.
Maybe that speaks more to the character of your Bruce (basically, you). If you prefer Harley over Selina, have you been flirtatious with her? And if you have, then why would you do that if you like having John as a friend?
Yes I did. Why? To make her happy. That's another part of the job involved in staying undercover. Making all the members happy. They want to hear something in particular? I say it. They want me to do something in particular? I do it. Even if they didn't, i still would go along with them. I like being bad.
And I did no damage to John by flirting with her. Considering that I've been pro John the whole time, the game recognized that I helped John get the attention he wanted from Harley by having him hand over the device to Harley and he was happy. He was happy, Harley was happy, and I got to do bad things.
Again, maybe that speaks to your character. Maybe your Bruce is more of a criminal than hero, especially if he (you) "likes" being bad. And, you did no damage to John by flirting with Harley? Are you sure about that? John gets jealous if Bruce drinks Harley's slushie. He also gets jealous if Bruce makes sexual advances on Harley in the elevator of Wayne Enterprises. You clearly did damage to John. A friend doesn't flirt with his friend's love interest. And if they do, then they're not really much of a friend. It's as simple as that. You can justify those actions, but it still doesn't make it right.
Harley is a twisted monster.
Dude, he knows that and he's into that.
It still doesn't make any sense, though. It doesn't make any more sense than when Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer who raped and murdered more than 30 women, was put on trial in 1979, women from all over the world sent him fan mail. Many of these letters included nude pictures, and some of them even contained marriage proposals. How does that make sense? It doesn't. Unfortunately, this is a common thing, but it literally makes no sense. It even has a name for itself: "hybristophilia".
The choices made in this game speaks to all of our characters. It's tailored to our choices. There are no 'right' and 'wrong' choices, especially in regards to relationship status. It's all in how you want to play. After Selena's second betrayal, I stole from her. I fought her in Wayne Manor, and I went along with John's plans right away. I was really impressed with the dialogue resulting from all of that. The performances from all parties, even the minor quip or two from Alfred generated from that exchange, was utterly brilliant.
I'm not in a relationship with Harley, but I am very curious as to how far TellTale will let us push that envelope. Almost as curious as I am to see where this relationship leads with John. You know what's really interesting is that after John steals that laptop, and gives it to Batman? Bruce doesn't ask him what he did with it, or to give it to him. This incarnation of Batman is really the absolute worst at attempting to maintain a secret identity lol.
Fuck here comes the serial killer/savage monsters comparisons. Oh well whatever, Harley isn't going around Gotham murdering random innocent men and women, as far as we've seen she only kills those who get in her way which for most part have been armed guys. She's not a psychopath. She's also way less ruthless than Bane or Freeze plus she let Tiffany go when she could have just killed her or hurt her. She's not that bad when you take in all the other fellas Batman tangles with. Add in her good looks and charm and it's pretty easy to see why someone would want to stick their shlongs in that hornet's nest. Believe me I despise people who idolize creatures like Bundy or Ramirez. But someone like Harley Quinn can't compare to that, no. Victor Zsasz sure, but not Harley. And after all - it's just a videogame.
I agree with you, that the choices that we make speak to all of our characters. However, most of every choice that we make has moral implications. For example, if I choose to show dignity and respect to women or treat them poorly, that has moral implications to it. There are some choices that have more to do with preference than morality. For instance, if I prefer one food over the other, that's just my preference with no morality involved. I would personally say that there are moral decisions being made. Hence why players experience difficulties with certain decisions.
Although, I think that we can all agree that this incarnation of Batman is the worst at attempting to keep his identity a secret.
What's wrong with the comparison? Has Harley not killed people? Are people not attracted to her? It's a fair comparison of the two. Just because she has killed people who have "gotten in her way", it doesn't mean that they weren't innocent. However, I do agree that Bane is much more ruthless than Harley. Although, Bane isn't the topic of discussion here. It's between Selina and Harley. I appreciate that you can at least see how people who idolize men like Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez are, well, mentally unstable(?). No offense to them personally. I respect you for that actually.
It's just a few levels apart for me. "Killing someone" has many subcategories that I don't think are so black and white (ex: brutal murder of a teenager/killing someone in self defense/killing an extremely abusive person out of anger). Harley falls into "Kill or injure anyone who threatens her safety" (example being the Agents in the convoy, Bane's men etc.). And don't get me wrong I do not nor do I think @AnimalBoy see something serious in her, it's more of a flirtatious "physical" relationship.
In a video game, it has questionable implications to it. For a lot of people, they just want to see what happens - not that they'd do any of those things in real life or want to. For those playing for full immersion or role-playing, then they attach morals to the decisions being made. I do prefer to play the same as you do, but there are many that don't.
Is it morally right for Bruce to take his spot in the freezer? It's more of a gray area. Three people had their hand in stealing that laptop :: Selena, Bruce, and John. I don't know what Selena's intentions are aside from a vendetta, and an admission that she had originally planned on working with Riddler. I know that she did supply Lady Arkham with some nasty stuff last season that I had to put an end to. I do know that she doesn't put the citizens of Gotham ahead of her own well being.
Both choices are heroic choices. Sacrifice yourself to spare Selena. Sacrifice Selena for the greater good. It's a choice real life people have made, and will make again - officers, soldiers, ect. Taking out of account our own knowledge of plot armor, is there a right choice? No. Will there be a clear right choice at the start of the next episode? ....probably. I doubt the writers will reflect consequences for putting yourself in that box quite as respectively as the price Selena suffers --- but it should have. I honestly thought Harley had Tiffany, and if we confessed Tiffany would be in Selena's place.
lol I think this last episode proved Harley was worse than Bane, even he stayed out of her way.
More threatening yes, but with lesser casualties.
I do believe that there's a difference between killing someone out of self-defense and premeditating someone's murder. When Harley's life was threatened by Bane's men, she acted in a way to procure her safety. Harley, however, injuring or killing the agents and bystanders is where she could have avoided senselessly killing others. Unfortunately, they just really wanted to recover the Riddler's body for discovering a specific location.
Lets not try to sugar coat what Harley does this woman is a sociopath at best who kills people who get in her way regardless if there a threat. Hell she's willing to kill Tiffany a teenage girl over something she had nothing to do with.And even though Im not the biggest cat woman fan Id gladly take her over that psychotic bitch. I cant wait to open up a can of whoop ass on all the members of the pact except hopefully not John.
Well i hav been amused and enjoying watching all u guys point of view. With appreciation out the way first.... Im rocking with Harley. My bruce is Pragmatic cynical realist that likes Harley's bravado and boldness o get what she wants. She only reveals her true self to bruce in private. So yea harley all day.
I can understand if players make different choices from us. Which, it's refreshing to even hear that someone plays the same way as me, one who is looking for a deep and meaningful experience. The only reason why I posted a reply to this thread, is because Selina was being treated unfairly, and Harley had been given a free pass. However, I don't necessarily think that the choices that some players make, they would actually do or want to do in real life. For what it's worth.
Morally speaking, taking the fall and being left and being left in one of Mr. Freeze's cryochambers to die is good. Even in movies, the hero is usually being depicted as one who has sacrificed something for the sake of others, including but limited to their life. You can even see this sacrificed being made in real life scenarios, too. Desmond Doss, a former United States Army corporal, aided wounded soldiers under fire while serving with his platoon in 1944 on Guam and the Philippines. During the Battle Of Okinawa, he saved the lives of 75 wounded infantrymen atop the area known by the 96th Division as the Maeda Escarpment or Hacksaw Ridge. He was wounded four times in Okinawa. That was love for others. He sacrificed his wellbeing to save the lives of others. Could he have been killed? Yes, but he was compelled by love and moved by compassion for others, that he risked his life to save theirs. Fortunately, though, his life didn't end in Okinawa.
Love is sacrificial. Meaning that, if you have love for someone, you're willing to make sacrifices for them. If a husband loves his wife, would he not sacrifice energy, time, and money for her? I'm not talking about having a self-centered attitude about it either. What I mean by "a self-centered attitude" is the husband who gives up golf, hunting, or football to work up brownie points. The husband who basically expects to be paid back, and that if he doesn't get paid back, he stops trying altogether. That's a self-centered attitude. But, sacrificial love isn't motivated by manipulation, it's motivated by something more. If the "right choice" is to be determined by results, then the choice isn't based off of morality anymore, and instead it's based off of profit.
When did I sugarcoat Harley's actions? I have already expressed my displeasure for her. As a matter of fact, I defended Selina over Harley in this thread with my initial reply.
I apologize it just seems like so many people on the form are trying to downplay how evil Harley and her crew are and,I get it there cool and entertaining but we should accept the facts.
Don't worry about it! In the second episode, I honestly empathized with Harley, having suffered loss myself this year. But, she seemingly has no remorse for her actions, and is taking things out on others. That's not right.
Flirting with Harley makes me a bad friend?
I'd love to know what you think about the real me then. I'm not going to lie. I've stolen a girl from a friend in real life before. Guess that makes me a really bad person.
You know, I've said it before on this board and I'll say it again. I suffer from real life mental illnesses and in turn I can often relate more to characters who also have mental issues. I'm not homicidal, but I would definitely say...I have issues. It's so nice that someone can say that they're fans of Harley, John, doing bad things In VIDEO GAMES and somehow people turn that into conversations involving real life serial killers, what's self centered, what's self sacrificing, love, blah, blah, blah.
Every thread turns to crap because people just can't let the conversation be what it's about. A video game. Everyone's got to psycho analyze everything and turn it into a real life situation.
To whom it may concern:
Please don't bother replying to me. I don't want to be in this conversation anymore.
That all depends on if you're friends with John.
And, I don't have anything against you personally. But, what I say applies to myself as well. I'm not a good friend if I betray my friend's trust. As for what you have done, did you steal this girl from your friend without having prior knowledge of his attraction to her? That's an important question to know the answer to first. Even if you're a "really bad person", I'm much worse than you think that I think that you are. I have done bad things to people, but I just won't justify those actions. They (as in, my actions) were wrong and I was wrong.
Well, what I will say since this is clearly directed towards me. A forum is meant to be a place of discussion. We can all discuss the matters. We can all share our opinions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's the point of all of this. We can't discuss matters, share opinions, and have issues with those who do the same. Whether they talk about real life scenarios or not. This thread and our replies were literally about what it's about: a video game. We can incorporate events of the real world to provide further clarity where needed. Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, I'm sorry that you suffer from mental illnesses in real life, and I'm not being sarcastic when saying that.
Selina.
Harley's cray, cray. She's a murderer when she doesn't need to be. Also I don't think she has an attachment to Bruce, like some people seem to think. I think she flirts with Bruce to drive a wedge between him and John, considering how much John likes Bruce. That friendship is a danger to her power over him. At most she's trying to manipulate Bruce into being another John so she can have two 'toys.' (I'm sure Harley fans are probably okay with that though.)
Bruce deserves better than a Selina season 1 and Harley.
But, Selina has grown as a character in this season and in a great way. She's shown she cares about things. She also wasn't horrible in season 1. If you save Harvey she still saves Bruce from Vicki, showing she understands the decision and doesn't hold it against Bruce, and if you save her she feels guilty and blames herself. She's pretty much all talk about being ruthless. I mean, she was still a b**** but what do you expect from someone who probably had a harsh life?
Plus, I ship Harley and John. Especially after episode 3 and that conversation of 'be yourself.' Creepy and mystical all at once. And hilarious.
Out of respect of AnimalBoy's wishes, I won't directly reply to their response, but it does sadden me that the topic has chased away a member from the conversation. I had hoped to steer it back toward a more live and let play discussion. It is interesting to see how many people choose their paths and why.
What makes these characters so interesting to involve ourselves in is their imperfections. There are no saints here. Selena has twice betrayed Bruce Wayne, and will again. Harley, thus far, hasn't -- but the betrayal there is on Bruce's end as odd as that is to say, and comes with her own set of issues. Can either truly be redeemed? I don't know. I'd hoped so with so many selections last season -- Selena, Harvey, Oz, Vicki. However, I have a feeling that this season, much like last, the best case scenario is still going to be heart ache and separation. After all, at the end of the day, Catwoman still has time to serve for her crimes.
Out of curiosity -- regardless of which is your choice -- if there's an option to turn them over to the GCPD or let them get away :: which will you choose? Does a relationship trump breaking the law and serving the time?