Well, to your point, part of why people are saying Selina is different and better is because she changed in season 2. That we know of. She's shown that she isn't beyond reach by saying 'I want to be a better person.' And in season 1 she showed she was capable of saving a life. No one's seen that from Harley. We've just seen that's she's a very capable killer. So its not exactly hypocritical.
But who knows maybe if this batman series will continue she'll try and change. She does in other batman variations so maybe they will have her try and redeem herself. <-- Talking about Harley.
Just seemed that way from the way @BruceBrothers spoke of her. I don't think they hold the same viewpoint they have on Harley when it comes … moreto all the other villains, but of course I could be mistaken. As for "monsters who belong in a padded cell" I simply have to disagree. As my Bruce said: "No one is beyond reach." Now I don't think many people actually believe that, it's more like they were trying to impress Selina, but I sincerely believe those words. There's hope for everyone and everyone should be given a chance. I'd be much happier knowing all the people Batman faced have evolved beyond their former selves and that they are trying to make the world a better place instead of knowing they'll just fortify their villainous tendencies, locked away and isolated from any contact with the outside world. Seems hypocritical when people defend Selina and her actions saying "She's a different, better person", yet they condemn Harley as a monster and don't try to help her change.
Alright first let's bring up the fact that Harley hasn't had a single reason to change who she is, no one asked her to, no one wanted to, no one minded her the way she is. (Talking about the people that she spend most of their time with, not the ones she killed of course) Obviously you can't just expect her to suddenly feel guilty about what she's doing and say "Oh silly me, I'm actually a good person now and I regret everything I've done, can you forgive me?" You see if you want to change someone like Harley, you need to actually try and do something about it. You can't just wait for her to change her mind nor can you just give up if she doesn't come around immediately. You need to keep pushing, keep trying and keep hoping. Only then you have a chance. And most importantly, you need to want her to change. You need to see past her capability to kill people and acknowledge any signs of humanity she shows, which in this case are plentiful. If they're there, then there's room for more. You just need to help her find it. Or you can take the easy way out, beat her up, lock her up, whatever you want, ultimately it's your choice, not hers. You would surely argue you're doing the rest of the world a favor. But I don't see why we shouldn't try to help the rest of the world AND Harley. It's a near impossible task, sure. But hey, the least you can do is try.
Well you can expect her to feel guilty because she should and shouldn't need to be pushed into feeling that. It needs to be something she feels for herself. And if she doesn't already feel any guilt at all than you are actually dealing with a person incapable of change. (Not saying she doesn't, maybe she does, but saying IF she doesn't.)
I mean, by your standards, it sounds like there really shouldn't even be a blackgate or an arkham. Batman shouldn't lock anyone up and therefore should retire. Because everyone locked up should have bruce pushing and trying and hoping they all change. And in the mean time Gotham's population slowly dwindles down to nothing but the criminals he let roam free.
But, if Bruce put Harley in arkham he could visit her and try and hope she changes for the better. She'd also wouldn't be able to hurt anyone. So that'd be a win-win.
Alright first let's bring up the fact that Harley hasn't had a single reason to change who she is, no one asked her to, no one wanted to, no… more one minded her the way she is. (Talking about the people that she spend most of their time with, not the ones she killed of course) Obviously you can't just expect her to suddenly feel guilty about what she's doing and say "Oh silly me, I'm actually a good person now and I regret everything I've done, can you forgive me?" You see if you want to change someone like Harley, you need to actually try and do something about it. You can't just wait for her to change her mind nor can you just give up if she doesn't come around immediately. You need to keep pushing, keep trying and keep hoping. Only then you have a chance. And most importantly, you need to want her to change. You need to see past her capability to kill people and acknowledge any signs of humanity she shows, which in this case are plentiful. If t… [view original content]
But I don't see why we shouldn't try to help the rest of the world AND Harley
How about because people should have to pay the consequences of their actions? You don't get to assault and kill people and be like... oops, my bad, I am so sorry now. Can I get a re-do? I promise to snap out of this funk I was in because I didn't know how to properly mourn for my father.
Alright first let's bring up the fact that Harley hasn't had a single reason to change who she is, no one asked her to, no one wanted to, no… more one minded her the way she is. (Talking about the people that she spend most of their time with, not the ones she killed of course) Obviously you can't just expect her to suddenly feel guilty about what she's doing and say "Oh silly me, I'm actually a good person now and I regret everything I've done, can you forgive me?" You see if you want to change someone like Harley, you need to actually try and do something about it. You can't just wait for her to change her mind nor can you just give up if she doesn't come around immediately. You need to keep pushing, keep trying and keep hoping. Only then you have a chance. And most importantly, you need to want her to change. You need to see past her capability to kill people and acknowledge any signs of humanity she shows, which in this case are plentiful. If t… [view original content]
Um. @HexIgon
But I don't see why we shouldn't try to help the rest of the world AND Harley
How about because people should hav… moree to pay the consequences of their actions? You don't get to assault and kill people and be like... oops, my bad, I am so sorry now. Can I get a re-do? I promise to snap out of this funk I was in because I didn't know how to properly mourn for my father.
Did you make an assumption about them or are you basing that on facts? Because, I have read the replies on this thread, and we haven't thought that the other villains are a lesser evil to Harley. However, this thread is specifically about Selina and Harley, which is why they haven't been mentioned nearly as much. And, when did I say that they are monsters who belong in a padded cell? I don't believe that anyone is past the point of no return, Harley included. As a matter of fact, I already said the exact opposite. Although, the difference between Selina and Harley, is that Selina has shown remorse for her actions with a genuine desire to change, but Harley is still the same old person as she was before. They process things differently right now. So, that's not hypocritical to say that Selina is a different person, a better person. She is. As for trying to help Harley to change, I will try to the best of my ability. But again, a person has to want help. For example, I can feed my cat, but she has to eat the food. I can't force her to do anything that she doesn't want to do.
Facts! Talk that stuff. . Don demarco ! Lol bang bang
Not really.
@GamerLady and @ShampaFK said it beautifully. @HexIgon, if you commit a crime and go before a judge, a righteous judge, he can't let you go free, because you have remorse for your actions. No, a righteous judge who justifies a wicked person, is no longer a "righteous" judge. Therefore, if you commit a crime, you have to pay for your crimes. The way that you pay for your crimes may greatly vary from person to person, but there's still a debt that needs to be paid. Imagine if a man rapes and murders a woman, but he apologizes for his actions, and the judge doesn't sentence him to jail. Do you know how many people would be outraged by that (understandably so)?
Just seemed that way from the way @BruceBrothers spoke of her. I don't think they hold the same viewpoint they have on Harley when it comes … moreto all the other villains, but of course I could be mistaken. As for "monsters who belong in a padded cell" I simply have to disagree. As my Bruce said: "No one is beyond reach." Now I don't think many people actually believe that, it's more like they were trying to impress Selina, but I sincerely believe those words. There's hope for everyone and everyone should be given a chance. I'd be much happier knowing all the people Batman faced have evolved beyond their former selves and that they are trying to make the world a better place instead of knowing they'll just fortify their villainous tendencies, locked away and isolated from any contact with the outside world. Seems hypocritical when people defend Selina and her actions saying "She's a different, better person", yet they condemn Harley as a monster and don't try to help her change.
She's not a sane person. Her mind doesn't work like that of a sane person and she doesn't hold the same moral standards as most do. In her mind, what she does is justified and therefore she sees no reason to feel remorse. We don't fully understand her motivations yet so it's still early to judge her like this anyway. What we can judge is the fact that when an opportunity to minimize bloodshed appeared, Harley gladly took it. That is a sign of compassion, however feeble. To her, the Agency forced her hand so why should she feel remorse? (Asking from Harley's point of view, not mine) And she's not gonna change out of the goodness of her heart is she? She needs to be "shown the light" or she'll stay the way she is. Saying she's incapable of change is simply not true.
And I don't know where you got the fact that I believe in letting her or any other criminal roam free, I never implied that. What I meant is that after she's stopped, she shouldn't be "left to rot" but helped instead. Because if she changes the way she views the world, then the risk of casualties after a potential prison break (let's be honest, this is Batman, she has a 300% chance of escaping any prison ten times in a row) equals zero. By the way, ever played Arkham City?
Well you can expect her to feel guilty because she should and shouldn't need to be pushed into feeling that. It needs to be something she fe… moreels for herself. And if she doesn't already feel any guilt at all than you are actually dealing with a person incapable of change. (Not saying she doesn't, maybe she does, but saying IF she doesn't.)
I mean, by your standards, it sounds like there really shouldn't even be a blackgate or an arkham. Batman shouldn't lock anyone up and therefore should retire. Because everyone locked up should have bruce pushing and trying and hoping they all change. And in the mean time Gotham's population slowly dwindles down to nothing but the criminals he let roam free.
But, if Bruce put Harley in arkham he could visit her and try and hope she changes for the better. She'd also wouldn't be able to hurt anyone. So that'd be a win-win.
Oooh that is an excellent point! I'll be sure to tell that to Selina, after all Gordon mentioned a rap sheet that could put her away for the remainder of her life! You don't get to steal whatever you want, assault whoever stands in your way and give dangerous terrorists devices capable of causing thousands of innocent death for a quick buck and be like... oops, my bad I was just having fun haha I'm a playful girl Bruce, can I make it up to you with my perfect body?
Um. @HexIgon
But I don't see why we shouldn't try to help the rest of the world AND Harley
How about because people should hav… moree to pay the consequences of their actions? You don't get to assault and kill people and be like... oops, my bad, I am so sorry now. Can I get a re-do? I promise to snap out of this funk I was in because I didn't know how to properly mourn for my father.
I already said I was just assuming based on their comment and I said I could be mistaken. Why are we still talking about this? And yes, you mentioned that this thread is about Selina and Harley about ten times already but we're currently discussing the severeness of Harley's crimes among other things and I feel like comparisons to other villains that I made have a place in this discussion.
When did you say they're monsters who belong in a padded cell? Oh, I dunno maybe when you told me that a person doesn't have to kill babies whilst drinking the blood of slaughtered kittens (I really hate typing that connection of words again) to be a monster who belongs in a padded cell. I assumed you were talking about Harley, since as you mentioned, we are discussing Harley and Selina and I really don't know who else you could mean.
Also, how can you say that Selina's desire to change is genuine? What good thing has she done since she came back? Stole from you? Yes. Brought a vital tool to a group of the most dangerous criminals in Gotham for a few flashy rocks? Yes. Handcuffed you to a chair pretending to be on your side? Yes. Blamed Bruce for not caring for her if he doesn't warn her about Gordon yet stole from him and beat him up earlier even if he was completely nice to her? Yes. Help me out here, I really can't see her noble intentions. Seems like she said a few pretty words and played the victim and suddenly all her crimes are forgiven. And I'm the irresponsible one, when I simply state that Harley deserves a chance like every other human being?
And as for your judge, I suggest you apply all you said to Selina and think on how well that ends for her.
Did you make an assumption about them or are you basing that on facts? Because, I have read the replies on this thread, and we haven't thoug… moreht that the other villains are a lesser evil to Harley. However, this thread is specifically about Selina and Harley, which is why they haven't been mentioned nearly as much. And, when did I say that they are monsters who belong in a padded cell? I don't believe that anyone is past the point of no return, Harley included. As a matter of fact, I already said the exact opposite. Although, the difference between Selina and Harley, is that Selina has shown remorse for her actions with a genuine desire to change, but Harley is still the same old person as she was before. They process things differently right now. So, that's not hypocritical to say that Selina is a different person, a better person. She is. As for trying to help Harley to change, I will try to the best of my ability. But again, a person has to … [view original content]
While I don't agree with some of what you said about Selina, I do think Harley isn't at all the heartless monster a lot of people are making her out to be. People really seem to overlook the fact that Bruce may very well be the only member of the Pact that's seen Harley be genuine. The Harley we see in her office is completely different from the one we see out of it. She apologies and I daresay even feels remores for how she treated your people at Wayne Enterprises. Then confesses that her attitude is to keep the real her hidden. She clearly likes Bruce for not being a bad person and actually seems reasonable. Even John doesn't see this side of Harley. Heck she even talks about her father to Bruce and reveals a childhood memory. Harley clearly appreciates and even respects reason and empathy. A lot of her actions are wrong, no one is saying they aren't, but Harley is a human being, she isn't evil. I really like Harley and hope the best for her.
I already said I was just assuming based on their comment and I said I could be mistaken. Why are we still talking about this? And yes, you … morementioned that this thread is about Selina and Harley about ten times already but we're currently discussing the severeness of Harley's crimes among other things and I feel like comparisons to other villains that I made have a place in this discussion.
When did you say they're monsters who belong in a padded cell? Oh, I dunno maybe when you told me that a person doesn't have to kill babies whilst drinking the blood of slaughtered kittens (I really hate typing that connection of words again) to be a monster who belongs in a padded cell. I assumed you were talking about Harley, since as you mentioned, we are discussing Harley and Selina and I really don't know who else you could mean.
Also, how can you say that Selina's desire to change is genuine? What good thing has she done since she came back? Stole… [view original content]
Why are you all still debating about the moral compass of fictional villains and anti heroes? Some of us just like to go the anti hero/more villainous route in games cause its not something we would do typically in real life. Plus being bad is fun. Commander Shepard punching a reporter anyone? Harley is more of a villainous character but she has shown moments of honesty/innocence when you are talking one on one.
I really like the contrast in Harley's character, how she is with Bruce in the office versus how she is outside with everyone else, nicely put btw. At the beginning I was seriously sceptical that maybe she could be manipulating Bruce, but now I think she's been genuine. Opening up to him, that probably depends on what dialogue options you pick though. And it's clear John doesn't get to see this side of Harley because she sees him as her TOY (which makes me mad).
I think she needs help instead of just prison, and I'm pretty sure she knows it too being a psychiatrist, she's not stupid. But at the same time I think she doesn't care.. she's insane yes, but she also has this other side that's more human. But still, you said she likes Bruce for not being a bad person, in my playthrough that doesn't make sense. I've been keeping up the big bad criminal facade for her the whole time, even in her office, what comes to Bruce.
I think all this makes her all the more responsible.. she's not psychotic, she knows what she's doing. What comes to this moment I think she needs to be arrested and serve time for what she's done. But I don't think she's beyond help, she could probably be rehabilitated, but at the same time I'm worried because she knows all about that, everything about mental illness. Could she actually just be a patient and be receptive of treatment.
While I don't agree with some of what you said about Selina, I do think Harley isn't at all the heartless monster a lot of people are making… more her out to be. People really seem to overlook the fact that Bruce may very well be the only member of the Pact that's seen Harley be genuine. The Harley we see in her office is completely different from the one we see out of it. She apologies and I daresay even feels remores for how she treated your people at Wayne Enterprises. Then confesses that her attitude is to keep the real her hidden. She clearly likes Bruce for not being a bad person and actually seems reasonable. Even John doesn't see this side of Harley. Heck she even talks about her father to Bruce and reveals a childhood memory. Harley clearly appreciates and even respects reason and empathy. A lot of her actions are wrong, no one is saying they aren't, but Harley is a human being, she isn't evil. I really like Harley and hope the best for her.
Why are you all still debating about the moral compass of fictional villains and anti heroes? Some of us just like to go the anti hero/more … morevillainous route in games cause its not something we would do typically in real life. Plus being bad is fun. Commander Shepard punching a reporter anyone? Harley is more of a villainous character but she has shown moments of honesty/innocence when you are talking one on one.
yeah... but the real her still chooses the company she's keeping and does the things she does. Saying after the fact that you're sorry about doing something doesn't mean diddly if you keep on doing that same thing - eg locking Bruce up in an ice locker and leaving him to die.
While I don't agree with some of what you said about Selina, I do think Harley isn't at all the heartless monster a lot of people are making… more her out to be. People really seem to overlook the fact that Bruce may very well be the only member of the Pact that's seen Harley be genuine. The Harley we see in her office is completely different from the one we see out of it. She apologies and I daresay even feels remores for how she treated your people at Wayne Enterprises. Then confesses that her attitude is to keep the real her hidden. She clearly likes Bruce for not being a bad person and actually seems reasonable. Even John doesn't see this side of Harley. Heck she even talks about her father to Bruce and reveals a childhood memory. Harley clearly appreciates and even respects reason and empathy. A lot of her actions are wrong, no one is saying they aren't, but Harley is a human being, she isn't evil. I really like Harley and hope the best for her.
Selina struggles with her criminal nature and ends up wanting to change and be good on her own, because she is a good person. Nobody should have to hold Harley's hand, put a lollipop in her mouth, and present her a 12 page master thesis to convince her not to be a murderer. Harley hasn't changed because she is scum.
Alright first let's bring up the fact that Harley hasn't had a single reason to change who she is, no one asked her to, no one wanted to, no… more one minded her the way she is. (Talking about the people that she spend most of their time with, not the ones she killed of course) Obviously you can't just expect her to suddenly feel guilty about what she's doing and say "Oh silly me, I'm actually a good person now and I regret everything I've done, can you forgive me?" You see if you want to change someone like Harley, you need to actually try and do something about it. You can't just wait for her to change her mind nor can you just give up if she doesn't come around immediately. You need to keep pushing, keep trying and keep hoping. Only then you have a chance. And most importantly, you need to want her to change. You need to see past her capability to kill people and acknowledge any signs of humanity she shows, which in this case are plentiful. If t… [view original content]
I don't really care if Selina steals from the rich. They can afford it. I like how the Selina from Nolan's batman series says Bruce something along the lines of... the rich shouldn't get to live so large and leave so little for the rest. That part of who she is doesn't bother me. Her getting into fights with other criminals doesn't bother me. Selina harming innocent people, and aiding others who would, does bother me.
Justice should cut both ways. Selina should also be locked up. However, on your last charge, it should matter that Selina is an accomplice (aiding) and not the principal as Harley is. in the whole Children of Arkham scenario Oswald was a conspirator - responsible even if their plans did not succeed. Selina is responsible IF the plan succeeds.Bruce was able to thwart the worst parts of the Pact's plan (the part Selina played a part in) and since the plan didn't come to fruition she is not guilty. As an accomplice you are not guilty of crimes that did not happen; that is, if you are guilty of aiding the crime. Accomplices can be found guilty of a crime if they "aid, counsel, command, or encourage" a crime. Of those, I think Selina is only guilty of aiding in the crime. It should count in Selina's favor that she, for part of the plan, helped prevent much of the Children of Arkham's plan from succeeding.
Selina deserves some leniency for helping Bruce. Not only have Harley's actions have been more direct and severe, but she has yet to show remorse for the people she killed at the bank robbery. Following that, they have that encounter where they steal Riddler's body. She may be sorry about what she did at Wayne Enterprises but that didn't stop her from continuing to do worse. Selina says she wants to redeem herself for what happened with the children of Arkham. She wants to punish the people in the pact. I'm okay with that. They deserve it. Harley? Not so much. Just... that whole convo in her office boiled down to, "I chose to be a criminal and sometimes in order to maintain my position I gotta do these terrible things. That is a lousy rational for her behavior." Not acceptable.
This discussion is making me see Bruce in a different light. In episode one he helps put Oswald away. He could recommend that Harvey either go to Arkham or to Blackgate. He would have, I assume, done the same for Vicki. Not quite sure how to reconcile this lapse (not capturing and turning Selina in) of ethics from Bruce. I mean, it could be out of gratitude for saving his life... and he can say that he will help arrest her if she commits more crimes, but yeah... he should follow through with that.
Oooh that is an excellent point! I'll be sure to tell that to Selina, after all Gordon mentioned a rap sheet that could put her away for the… more remainder of her life! You don't get to steal whatever you want, assault whoever stands in your way and give dangerous terrorists devices capable of causing thousands of innocent death for a quick buck and be like... oops, my bad I was just having fun haha I'm a playful girl Bruce, can I make it up to you with my perfect body?
Yeah, justice cuts both ways I'm afraid.
She's not a sane person. Her mind doesn't work like that of a sane person and she doesn't hold the same moral standards as most do. In her m… moreind, what she does is justified and therefore she sees no reason to feel remorse. We don't fully understand her motivations yet so it's still early to judge her like this anyway. What we can judge is the fact that when an opportunity to minimize bloodshed appeared, Harley gladly took it. That is a sign of compassion, however feeble. To her, the Agency forced her hand so why should she feel remorse? (Asking from Harley's point of view, not mine) And she's not gonna change out of the goodness of her heart is she? She needs to be "shown the light" or she'll stay the way she is. Saying she's incapable of change is simply not true.
And I don't know where you got the fact that I believe in letting her or any other criminal roam free, I never implied that. What I meant is that after she's stopped, she shouldn… [view original content]
She's not a sane person. Her mind doesn't work like that of a sane person and she doesn't hold the same moral standards as most do. In her m… moreind, what she does is justified and therefore she sees no reason to feel remorse. We don't fully understand her motivations yet so it's still early to judge her like this anyway. What we can judge is the fact that when an opportunity to minimize bloodshed appeared, Harley gladly took it. That is a sign of compassion, however feeble. To her, the Agency forced her hand so why should she feel remorse? (Asking from Harley's point of view, not mine) And she's not gonna change out of the goodness of her heart is she? She needs to be "shown the light" or she'll stay the way she is. Saying she's incapable of change is simply not true.
And I don't know where you got the fact that I believe in letting her or any other criminal roam free, I never implied that. What I meant is that after she's stopped, she shouldn… [view original content]
Seriously, what makes her life more valuable than the ones she took? If we go by her mentality the problem would be solved with her death. Just like she feels the agency forced her hand she would be forcing Bruce's hand.
When did I say otherwise? Comparisons have a place in this discussion. And why are you getting offended by me reiterating something? You have reiterated yourself multiple times now. Also, you clearly haven't read what I said carefully. I never said that they were monsters who belong in a padded cell. You were quick to reply and slow to listen, even after waiting an entire day to reply. You don't know what I mean, because you didn't read my words carefully.
The arguments that you have presented, have already been refuted. I would suggest that you go back and read through the replies. But, would Selina not be in the right to blame Bruce for not caring for her if he doesn't warn the GCPD? Especially since how the GCPD treated her if you don't warn her. Gordon has literally become a modern day police officer. You can't possibly be that biased towards Harley to not understand why Selina would feel betrayed if Bruce doesn't warn her about the GCPD. And, who said that you were the irresponsible person? You have a tendency of putting words in the mouths of others.
As for the judge, who said that I didn't apply all that I said to Selina? Ironically, I guessed that you were going to say that. Regardless, she will probably be punished, because of her past actions. Again, though, this could have varying degrees from others. At least, however, she has remorse for her actions, even if you don't care to recognize it. Harley, on the other hand, derives pleasure from inflicting pain on others. How you can still demonize Selina and celebrate Harley is beyond me. You should really apply the things that you asked me about Selina, to Harley. Unfortunately, you continuously question the authenticity of Selina, but make excuses for Harley. Maybe you should give Selina a chance like how you keep telling everyone else to give Harley one, and stop making excuses for her murderous tendencies. Which, for someone who didn't like me reiterating myself, you have reiterated that multiple times about "giving Harley a chance". Maybe Harley should take the chance that is given. Just a thought.
I already said I was just assuming based on their comment and I said I could be mistaken. Why are we still talking about this? And yes, you … morementioned that this thread is about Selina and Harley about ten times already but we're currently discussing the severeness of Harley's crimes among other things and I feel like comparisons to other villains that I made have a place in this discussion.
When did you say they're monsters who belong in a padded cell? Oh, I dunno maybe when you told me that a person doesn't have to kill babies whilst drinking the blood of slaughtered kittens (I really hate typing that connection of words again) to be a monster who belongs in a padded cell. I assumed you were talking about Harley, since as you mentioned, we are discussing Harley and Selina and I really don't know who else you could mean.
Also, how can you say that Selina's desire to change is genuine? What good thing has she done since she came back? Stole… [view original content]
Also, she has a PhD in psychology and their whole shtick is about trying to understand the human psyche and sort looking at what is and is not proper behavior and ways of thinking. You would think that maybe she would recognize that her behavior falls in the realm of psychopathic behavior. Also, it's not as if psychiatrists are exempt from having a decent set of morals and behaving within the bounds of ethics and laws. Plus, since she is a doctor then she has to have pledged to the medical code of ethics: the Hippocratic Oath; namely first do no harm. That is something she has gleefully subverted.
Selina struggles with her criminal nature and ends up wanting to change and be good on her own, because she is a good person. Nobody should… more have to hold Harley's hand, put a lollipop in her mouth, and present her a 12 page master thesis to convince her not to be a murderer. Harley hasn't changed because she is scum.
Why are you all still debating about the moral compass of fictional villains and anti heroes? Some of us just like to go the anti hero/more … morevillainous route in games cause its not something we would do typically in real life. Plus being bad is fun. Commander Shepard punching a reporter anyone? Harley is more of a villainous character but she has shown moments of honesty/innocence when you are talking one on one.
I find the selina camp very persistent in their portrayal of character and themes of morals oddly amusing. Tho team harley lets be clear no one is clearly evil or gd. Batman has indirectly caused the deaths and anarchy in Gotham because his self conflicting code . its mentioned numerous time by insane and genious level vilians and concerning his affairs. Scarecrow and joker even brings it up. If batman was radical in his code and not passive in allowing the system's due process to work he wouldn't who was for long as well as villians he made like the joker. So guys relax lol....team harley out?
Why are you all still debating about the moral compass of fictional villains and anti heroes? Some of us just like to go the anti hero/more … morevillainous route in games cause its not something we would do typically in real life. Plus being bad is fun. Commander Shepard punching a reporter anyone? Harley is more of a villainous character but she has shown moments of honesty/innocence when you are talking one on one.
Well good on telltale that they can get this kind of passion directed at their characters. It shows just how talented they are at writing.
And like I said I'd be down with Batman taking Harley out to include Freeze, Bane and all them others. Seems fair to say that his code is indirectly causing death by letting them live. All in on the evil or not they still be murderous.
I find the selina camp very persistent in their portrayal of character and themes of morals oddly amusing. Tho team harley lets be clear no… more one is clearly evil or gd. Batman has indirectly caused the deaths and anarchy in Gotham because his self conflicting code . its mentioned numerous time by insane and genious level vilians and concerning his affairs. Scarecrow and joker even brings it up. If batman was radical in his code and not passive in allowing the system's due process to work he wouldn't who was for long as well as villians he made like the joker. So guys relax lol....team harley out?
After reading your comments i can respect your decision even when u can see both sides and is of an different opinion than my own. As to the topic question, Selina in this universe is exactly the same as her other iterations where as Harley is a different take. For me that's enough or me honestly
Well good on telltale that they can get this kind of passion directed at their characters. It shows just how talented they are at writing.
… moreAnd like I said I'd be down with Batman taking Harley out to include Freeze, Bane and all them others. Seems fair to say that his code is indirectly causing death by letting them live. All in on the evil or not they still be murderous.
pfft. Its just in character for my Bruce. He's horrible. He don't need no code. Hell, he took out Selina no problem. She's sittin in Riddler's box. And she didn't do anything except for steal from him.
But I actually do prefer this Harley over the other Harley's as well. She is a breath of fresh air. My favorite would be the fact that it seems a tad bit more realistic for a psychiatrist to be the manipulator vs how it usually is. There are numerous reasons to like her character as there are to dislike it. Just like with Selina. She's cool but was a total b**** in season 1.
I still think there'll be more to Harley's character down the line. They say she's after the biological weapon but somehow I don't think that's necessarily it. Frankly, I still don't trust the agency and I'm waiting for that moment where they stab me in the back and reveal themselves the bigger, badder enemy. Probably not worse than sanctus but I get the feeling they might be worse than the pact.
After reading your comments i can respect your decision even when u can see both sides and is of an different opinion than my own. As to the… more topic question, Selina in this universe is exactly the same as her other iterations where as Harley is a different take. For me that's enough or me honestly
Unfortunately, those who support Harley don't take things like this into account. Instead, they criticize Selina for being a thief, and praise Harley for being a murderer. To which, they have also become like her. If it weren't for there being consequences to the actions, I hate to think how things could possibly be. "Gleefully subverted" is definitely one way of putting it, though.
Also, she has a PhD in psychology and their whole shtick is about trying to understand the human psyche and sort looking at what is and is n… moreot proper behavior and ways of thinking. You would think that maybe she would recognize that her behavior falls in the realm of psychopathic behavior. Also, it's not as if psychiatrists are exempt from having a decent set of morals and behaving within the bounds of ethics and laws. Plus, since she is a doctor then she has to have pledged to the medical code of ethics: the Hippocratic Oath; namely first do no harm. That is something she has gleefully subverted.
You are on a video game board. You should expect everything you post to be analyzed and discussed.
You can't handle that ? You know the wa… morey out.
You don't get to decide what can and can't be said about your comments. This is how a forum works, this is a place of discussion after all or maybe you forgot that.
Your illness is no excuse.
I thought that you were going to stay out of this thread? Well, I hope that you at least don't start complaining again if it gets to be too much for you. But, to make others' lives miserable is "fun"?
I thought that you were going to stay out of this thread? Well, I hope that you at least don't start complaining again if it gets to be too much for you. But, to make others' lives miserable is "fun"?
If that's directed towards me, I'm not getting personal with him. However, if making others' lives miserable is "fun", and something that someone practices, I can't imagine that they would have many friends, if any. I wasn't trying to be mean or anything, to clarify. Although, if he took offense by my words, then I'm sorry.
Smh cats stay talkin about each other instead of the topic post. Anyway about the post, im curious to see they up the ante with all character and the relationships had. This the second to last so if its goin to go at a head it should start now rather than it be squeezed in the last episode. As for me im curious to see what become of selina for those of us who gave her up as the mole for our reasons. Lastly and most important to me is to see the relationship btw bruce and harley as well as batman be rewarded or give us something other playthroughs dont get cuz we stuck with her. Hopefully telltale makes their word when john request to batman to see Harley make it out of this intact. As bruce i want to see the relationship btw Harley be platonic or intimate with her knowing bruce real reason being there but changing plans cuz Harley. Telltale no illusions of choice or my playthrough the same as others who didnt pick my choices. Actually divergence to end these episodes with a bang. Thats how you post a comment on a post lol ? Team Harley out
I don't really know what there is to get upset about honestly. It seems people are getting riled up just because others are taking into consideration the morality of a fictional character? Its a rather normal thing to do. Its a reason to like or dislike a character. I mean, you don't just have a favorite character without reasons. And this thread is about who you prefer and it seems perfectly fine for someone to list why they like one vs the other.
So I'm curious as to what makes people think that by doing that 'its taking a game to seriously'?
Games are meant to be enjoyed and part of that is being able to talk about it afterward.
The writers didn't just make a bunch of stick people with no personalities. They gave their characters depth and whatnot and different perspectives/motivations. So of course its being discussed.
Do things get a little heated? I think that all depends on how one interprets a written sentence. Its not as if we are all face to face and can hear the kind of tone that's used. Its all typed so anything can be taken the wrong way.
Comments
Marvelous. I have absolutely no idea what you just said, my friend. But marvelous.
Well, to your point, part of why people are saying Selina is different and better is because she changed in season 2. That we know of. She's shown that she isn't beyond reach by saying 'I want to be a better person.' And in season 1 she showed she was capable of saving a life. No one's seen that from Harley. We've just seen that's she's a very capable killer. So its not exactly hypocritical.
But who knows maybe if this batman series will continue she'll try and change. She does in other batman variations so maybe they will have her try and redeem herself. <-- Talking about Harley.
Alright first let's bring up the fact that Harley hasn't had a single reason to change who she is, no one asked her to, no one wanted to, no one minded her the way she is. (Talking about the people that she spend most of their time with, not the ones she killed of course) Obviously you can't just expect her to suddenly feel guilty about what she's doing and say "Oh silly me, I'm actually a good person now and I regret everything I've done, can you forgive me?" You see if you want to change someone like Harley, you need to actually try and do something about it. You can't just wait for her to change her mind nor can you just give up if she doesn't come around immediately. You need to keep pushing, keep trying and keep hoping. Only then you have a chance. And most importantly, you need to want her to change. You need to see past her capability to kill people and acknowledge any signs of humanity she shows, which in this case are plentiful. If they're there, then there's room for more. You just need to help her find it. Or you can take the easy way out, beat her up, lock her up, whatever you want, ultimately it's your choice, not hers. You would surely argue you're doing the rest of the world a favor. But I don't see why we shouldn't try to help the rest of the world AND Harley. It's a near impossible task, sure. But hey, the least you can do is try.
Well you can expect her to feel guilty because she should and shouldn't need to be pushed into feeling that. It needs to be something she feels for herself. And if she doesn't already feel any guilt at all than you are actually dealing with a person incapable of change. (Not saying she doesn't, maybe she does, but saying IF she doesn't.)
I mean, by your standards, it sounds like there really shouldn't even be a blackgate or an arkham. Batman shouldn't lock anyone up and therefore should retire. Because everyone locked up should have bruce pushing and trying and hoping they all change. And in the mean time Gotham's population slowly dwindles down to nothing but the criminals he let roam free.
But, if Bruce put Harley in arkham he could visit her and try and hope she changes for the better. She'd also wouldn't be able to hurt anyone. So that'd be a win-win.
Um. @HexIgon
How about because people should have to pay the consequences of their actions? You don't get to assault and kill people and be like... oops, my bad, I am so sorry now. Can I get a re-do? I promise to snap out of this funk I was in because I didn't know how to properly mourn for my father.
Okay. That last sentence had me laughing. I couldn't have said it any better. Bravo.
Did you make an assumption about them or are you basing that on facts? Because, I have read the replies on this thread, and we haven't thought that the other villains are a lesser evil to Harley. However, this thread is specifically about Selina and Harley, which is why they haven't been mentioned nearly as much. And, when did I say that they are monsters who belong in a padded cell? I don't believe that anyone is past the point of no return, Harley included. As a matter of fact, I already said the exact opposite. Although, the difference between Selina and Harley, is that Selina has shown remorse for her actions with a genuine desire to change, but Harley is still the same old person as she was before. They process things differently right now. So, that's not hypocritical to say that Selina is a different person, a better person. She is. As for trying to help Harley to change, I will try to the best of my ability. But again, a person has to want help. For example, I can feed my cat, but she has to eat the food. I can't force her to do anything that she doesn't want to do.
Not really.
@GamerLady and @ShampaFK said it beautifully. @HexIgon, if you commit a crime and go before a judge, a righteous judge, he can't let you go free, because you have remorse for your actions. No, a righteous judge who justifies a wicked person, is no longer a "righteous" judge. Therefore, if you commit a crime, you have to pay for your crimes. The way that you pay for your crimes may greatly vary from person to person, but there's still a debt that needs to be paid. Imagine if a man rapes and murders a woman, but he apologizes for his actions, and the judge doesn't sentence him to jail. Do you know how many people would be outraged by that (understandably so)?
She's not a sane person. Her mind doesn't work like that of a sane person and she doesn't hold the same moral standards as most do. In her mind, what she does is justified and therefore she sees no reason to feel remorse. We don't fully understand her motivations yet so it's still early to judge her like this anyway. What we can judge is the fact that when an opportunity to minimize bloodshed appeared, Harley gladly took it. That is a sign of compassion, however feeble. To her, the Agency forced her hand so why should she feel remorse? (Asking from Harley's point of view, not mine) And she's not gonna change out of the goodness of her heart is she? She needs to be "shown the light" or she'll stay the way she is. Saying she's incapable of change is simply not true.
And I don't know where you got the fact that I believe in letting her or any other criminal roam free, I never implied that. What I meant is that after she's stopped, she shouldn't be "left to rot" but helped instead. Because if she changes the way she views the world, then the risk of casualties after a potential prison break (let's be honest, this is Batman, she has a 300% chance of escaping any prison ten times in a row) equals zero. By the way, ever played Arkham City?
Oooh that is an excellent point! I'll be sure to tell that to Selina, after all Gordon mentioned a rap sheet that could put her away for the remainder of her life! You don't get to steal whatever you want, assault whoever stands in your way and give dangerous terrorists devices capable of causing thousands of innocent death for a quick buck and be like... oops, my bad I was just having fun haha I'm a playful girl Bruce, can I make it up to you with my perfect body?
Yeah, justice cuts both ways I'm afraid.
I already said I was just assuming based on their comment and I said I could be mistaken. Why are we still talking about this? And yes, you mentioned that this thread is about Selina and Harley about ten times already but we're currently discussing the severeness of Harley's crimes among other things and I feel like comparisons to other villains that I made have a place in this discussion.
When did you say they're monsters who belong in a padded cell? Oh, I dunno maybe when you told me that a person doesn't have to kill babies whilst drinking the blood of slaughtered kittens (I really hate typing that connection of words again) to be a monster who belongs in a padded cell. I assumed you were talking about Harley, since as you mentioned, we are discussing Harley and Selina and I really don't know who else you could mean.
Also, how can you say that Selina's desire to change is genuine? What good thing has she done since she came back? Stole from you? Yes. Brought a vital tool to a group of the most dangerous criminals in Gotham for a few flashy rocks? Yes. Handcuffed you to a chair pretending to be on your side? Yes. Blamed Bruce for not caring for her if he doesn't warn her about Gordon yet stole from him and beat him up earlier even if he was completely nice to her? Yes. Help me out here, I really can't see her noble intentions. Seems like she said a few pretty words and played the victim and suddenly all her crimes are forgiven. And I'm the irresponsible one, when I simply state that Harley deserves a chance like every other human being?
And as for your judge, I suggest you apply all you said to Selina and think on how well that ends for her.
While I don't agree with some of what you said about Selina, I do think Harley isn't at all the heartless monster a lot of people are making her out to be. People really seem to overlook the fact that Bruce may very well be the only member of the Pact that's seen Harley be genuine. The Harley we see in her office is completely different from the one we see out of it. She apologies and I daresay even feels remores for how she treated your people at Wayne Enterprises. Then confesses that her attitude is to keep the real her hidden. She clearly likes Bruce for not being a bad person and actually seems reasonable. Even John doesn't see this side of Harley. Heck she even talks about her father to Bruce and reveals a childhood memory. Harley clearly appreciates and even respects reason and empathy. A lot of her actions are wrong, no one is saying they aren't, but Harley is a human being, she isn't evil. I really like Harley and hope the best for her.
Why are you all still debating about the moral compass of fictional villains and anti heroes? Some of us just like to go the anti hero/more villainous route in games cause its not something we would do typically in real life. Plus being bad is fun. Commander Shepard punching a reporter anyone? Harley is more of a villainous character but she has shown moments of honesty/innocence when you are talking one on one.
I really like the contrast in Harley's character, how she is with Bruce in the office versus how she is outside with everyone else, nicely put btw. At the beginning I was seriously sceptical that maybe she could be manipulating Bruce, but now I think she's been genuine. Opening up to him, that probably depends on what dialogue options you pick though. And it's clear John doesn't get to see this side of Harley because she sees him as her TOY (which makes me mad).
I think she needs help instead of just prison, and I'm pretty sure she knows it too being a psychiatrist, she's not stupid. But at the same time I think she doesn't care.. she's insane yes, but she also has this other side that's more human. But still, you said she likes Bruce for not being a bad person, in my playthrough that doesn't make sense. I've been keeping up the big bad criminal facade for her the whole time, even in her office, what comes to Bruce.
I think all this makes her all the more responsible.. she's not psychotic, she knows what she's doing. What comes to this moment I think she needs to be arrested and serve time for what she's done. But I don't think she's beyond help, she could probably be rehabilitated, but at the same time I'm worried because she knows all about that, everything about mental illness. Could she actually just be a patient and be receptive of treatment.
Why? Because we want to. If you aren't interested, you don't have to read it. Duh!
yeah... but the real her still chooses the company she's keeping and does the things she does. Saying after the fact that you're sorry about doing something doesn't mean diddly if you keep on doing that same thing - eg locking Bruce up in an ice locker and leaving him to die.
Selina struggles with her criminal nature and ends up wanting to change and be good on her own, because she is a good person. Nobody should have to hold Harley's hand, put a lollipop in her mouth, and present her a 12 page master thesis to convince her not to be a murderer. Harley hasn't changed because she is scum.
I don't really care if Selina steals from the rich. They can afford it. I like how the Selina from Nolan's batman series says Bruce something along the lines of... the rich shouldn't get to live so large and leave so little for the rest. That part of who she is doesn't bother me. Her getting into fights with other criminals doesn't bother me. Selina harming innocent people, and aiding others who would, does bother me.
Justice should cut both ways. Selina should also be locked up. However, on your last charge, it should matter that Selina is an accomplice (aiding) and not the principal as Harley is. in the whole Children of Arkham scenario Oswald was a conspirator - responsible even if their plans did not succeed. Selina is responsible IF the plan succeeds.Bruce was able to thwart the worst parts of the Pact's plan (the part Selina played a part in) and since the plan didn't come to fruition she is not guilty. As an accomplice you are not guilty of crimes that did not happen; that is, if you are guilty of aiding the crime. Accomplices can be found guilty of a crime if they "aid, counsel, command, or encourage" a crime. Of those, I think Selina is only guilty of aiding in the crime. It should count in Selina's favor that she, for part of the plan, helped prevent much of the Children of Arkham's plan from succeeding.
Selina deserves some leniency for helping Bruce. Not only have Harley's actions have been more direct and severe, but she has yet to show remorse for the people she killed at the bank robbery. Following that, they have that encounter where they steal Riddler's body. She may be sorry about what she did at Wayne Enterprises but that didn't stop her from continuing to do worse. Selina says she wants to redeem herself for what happened with the children of Arkham. She wants to punish the people in the pact. I'm okay with that. They deserve it. Harley? Not so much. Just... that whole convo in her office boiled down to, "I chose to be a criminal and sometimes in order to maintain my position I gotta do these terrible things. That is a lousy rational for her behavior." Not acceptable.
This discussion is making me see Bruce in a different light. In episode one he helps put Oswald away. He could recommend that Harvey either go to Arkham or to Blackgate. He would have, I assume, done the same for Vicki. Not quite sure how to reconcile this lapse (not capturing and turning Selina in) of ethics from Bruce. I mean, it could be out of gratitude for saving his life... and he can say that he will help arrest her if she commits more crimes, but yeah... he should follow through with that.
Yes I have played it. But this is telltales version. Oh, my bad. I played Arkham Asylum. Not Arkham City.
But looking at it from a practical point of view why waste time helping her so she doesn't kill again when you could just kill her ?
Seriously, what makes her life more valuable than the ones she took? If we go by her mentality the problem would be solved with her death. Just like she feels the agency forced her hand she would be forcing Bruce's hand.
When did I say otherwise? Comparisons have a place in this discussion. And why are you getting offended by me reiterating something? You have reiterated yourself multiple times now. Also, you clearly haven't read what I said carefully. I never said that they were monsters who belong in a padded cell. You were quick to reply and slow to listen, even after waiting an entire day to reply. You don't know what I mean, because you didn't read my words carefully.
The arguments that you have presented, have already been refuted. I would suggest that you go back and read through the replies. But, would Selina not be in the right to blame Bruce for not caring for her if he doesn't warn the GCPD? Especially since how the GCPD treated her if you don't warn her. Gordon has literally become a modern day police officer. You can't possibly be that biased towards Harley to not understand why Selina would feel betrayed if Bruce doesn't warn her about the GCPD. And, who said that you were the irresponsible person? You have a tendency of putting words in the mouths of others.
As for the judge, who said that I didn't apply all that I said to Selina? Ironically, I guessed that you were going to say that. Regardless, she will probably be punished, because of her past actions. Again, though, this could have varying degrees from others. At least, however, she has remorse for her actions, even if you don't care to recognize it. Harley, on the other hand, derives pleasure from inflicting pain on others. How you can still demonize Selina and celebrate Harley is beyond me. You should really apply the things that you asked me about Selina, to Harley. Unfortunately, you continuously question the authenticity of Selina, but make excuses for Harley. Maybe you should give Selina a chance like how you keep telling everyone else to give Harley one, and stop making excuses for her murderous tendencies. Which, for someone who didn't like me reiterating myself, you have reiterated that multiple times about "giving Harley a chance". Maybe Harley should take the chance that is given. Just a thought.
Also, she has a PhD in psychology and their whole shtick is about trying to understand the human psyche and sort looking at what is and is not proper behavior and ways of thinking. You would think that maybe she would recognize that her behavior falls in the realm of psychopathic behavior. Also, it's not as if psychiatrists are exempt from having a decent set of morals and behaving within the bounds of ethics and laws. Plus, since she is a doctor then she has to have pledged to the medical code of ethics: the Hippocratic Oath; namely first do no harm. That is something she has gleefully subverted.
"This is Commander Shepard and I approve this message" ?
I find the selina camp very persistent in their portrayal of character and themes of morals oddly amusing. Tho team harley lets be clear no one is clearly evil or gd. Batman has indirectly caused the deaths and anarchy in Gotham because his self conflicting code . its mentioned numerous time by insane and genious level vilians and concerning his affairs. Scarecrow and joker even brings it up. If batman was radical in his code and not passive in allowing the system's due process to work he wouldn't who was for long as well as villians he made like the joker. So guys relax lol....team harley out?
My Shepard was mostly paragon, but he had his renegade moments.
Well good on telltale that they can get this kind of passion directed at their characters. It shows just how talented they are at writing.
And like I said I'd be down with Batman taking Harley out to include Freeze, Bane and all them others. Seems fair to say that his code is indirectly causing death by letting them live. All in on the evil or not they still be murderous.
After reading your comments i can respect your decision even when u can see both sides and is of an different opinion than my own. As to the topic question, Selina in this universe is exactly the same as her other iterations where as Harley is a different take. For me that's enough or me honestly
pfft. Its just in character for my Bruce. He's horrible. He don't need no code. Hell, he took out Selina no problem. She's sittin in Riddler's box. And she didn't do anything except for steal from him.
But I actually do prefer this Harley over the other Harley's as well. She is a breath of fresh air. My favorite would be the fact that it seems a tad bit more realistic for a psychiatrist to be the manipulator vs how it usually is. There are numerous reasons to like her character as there are to dislike it. Just like with Selina. She's cool but was a total b**** in season 1.
I still think there'll be more to Harley's character down the line. They say she's after the biological weapon but somehow I don't think that's necessarily it. Frankly, I still don't trust the agency and I'm waiting for that moment where they stab me in the back and reveal themselves the bigger, badder enemy. Probably not worse than sanctus but I get the feeling they might be worse than the pact.
Unfortunately, those who support Harley don't take things like this into account. Instead, they criticize Selina for being a thief, and praise Harley for being a murderer. To which, they have also become like her. If it weren't for there being consequences to the actions, I hate to think how things could possibly be. "Gleefully subverted" is definitely one way of putting it, though.
Subversion is fun. I make sure to practice it as much as possible.
Just saw your post. What do I have to say in response?
Beautiful artwork !
I thought that you were going to stay out of this thread? Well, I hope that you at least don't start complaining again if it gets to be too much for you. But, to make others' lives miserable is "fun"?
Hey everybody lets just all calm down were only talking about fictional characters here no
need to get personal.
I know, right? This thread makes me angry and hurts my feelings... but I can't seem to stay away from it... rolls eyes
If that's directed towards me, I'm not getting personal with him. However, if making others' lives miserable is "fun", and something that someone practices, I can't imagine that they would have many friends, if any. I wasn't trying to be mean or anything, to clarify. Although, if he took offense by my words, then I'm sorry.
Exactly! It doesn't make any sense to me. Why would you go back to where you were being caused to feel negative emotions?
Smh cats stay talkin about each other instead of the topic post. Anyway about the post, im curious to see they up the ante with all character and the relationships had. This the second to last so if its goin to go at a head it should start now rather than it be squeezed in the last episode. As for me im curious to see what become of selina for those of us who gave her up as the mole for our reasons. Lastly and most important to me is to see the relationship btw bruce and harley as well as batman be rewarded or give us something other playthroughs dont get cuz we stuck with her. Hopefully telltale makes their word when john request to batman to see Harley make it out of this intact. As bruce i want to see the relationship btw Harley be platonic or intimate with her knowing bruce real reason being there but changing plans cuz Harley. Telltale no illusions of choice or my playthrough the same as others who didnt pick my choices. Actually divergence to end these episodes with a bang. Thats how you post a comment on a post lol ? Team Harley out
I don't really know what there is to get upset about honestly. It seems people are getting riled up just because others are taking into consideration the morality of a fictional character? Its a rather normal thing to do. Its a reason to like or dislike a character. I mean, you don't just have a favorite character without reasons. And this thread is about who you prefer and it seems perfectly fine for someone to list why they like one vs the other.
So I'm curious as to what makes people think that by doing that 'its taking a game to seriously'?
Games are meant to be enjoyed and part of that is being able to talk about it afterward.
The writers didn't just make a bunch of stick people with no personalities. They gave their characters depth and whatnot and different perspectives/motivations. So of course its being discussed.
Do things get a little heated? I think that all depends on how one interprets a written sentence. Its not as if we are all face to face and can hear the kind of tone that's used. Its all typed so anything can be taken the wrong way.
Well he does have a few screws loose so let's cut him some slack.