A cop out means "An excuse made in order to avoid performing a task or duty."
Pretending that a lightning strike through the time circuits would cause the Delorean to multiply does definatly fall under that category!
Huh? Don't these two sentences contradict each other, since they did think up a reason and didn't "avoid performing a task or duty"? And what do you mean by "pretending"?
To be quite honest, The explanation I was expecting was that the time machine was from before doc showed up at the end of back to the future part one... and that we would be interacting with "Past Doc" from before the second and third films
I do hope they have some sort of alternate revelation planned as the existence of the time machine is what this whole story is hinging on, and the current explanation is satisfyingly vague and far fetched, I agree (whereas everything else fits into the universe quite well)
When the game first started, it took me a repeated play through the prologue to realise it was just a dream and not some awesome re-telling of the original's timeline.
When the car didn't re-appear my jaw hit the floor and I thought they'd come up with some awesome reason as to why that happened and thus explaining how Doc still has a DeLorean (he stole the first one, from himself). Especially when the car first re-appeared with just Einstein in it, I still thought the prologue could be part of the storyline.
When I realised it was just an emotional dream sequence, I was still cool with it, but then when given the explanation of a magic second DeLorean I can't help but feel a little a saddened by that when compared to my initial feelings about the prologue and I hoped that played into the story that was coming up.
Doc still has that train. Okay, its difficult to hide something that big but he could've built the time machine into another vehicle.
A cop out means "An excuse made in order to avoid performing a task or duty."
Pretending that a lightning strike through the time circuits would cause the Delorean to multiply does definatly fall under that category!
Building a new Delorean Time machine would've made a lot more sense.
Sorry, but building a new time machine out of a DeLorean makes no sense at all. I know I've defended that theory in the past, but since it's been knocked out of the running, here are the reasons why it would be an even bigger cop out:
1) If Doc could afford another DeLorean, he wouldn't be having financial troubles in 1986.
2) For Doc to get another DeLorean that is either in very good condition or brand spankin new, he would have to return to the 1980's, and in that case, why wouldn't he at least visit Marty and check up on things?
3) One thing that would hinge on Doc building another car is that we all assumed he had the blueprints. The first part of the episode before the DeLorean arrives proves this isn't the case. The notebook that Marty has to get from Biff has all the plans for the Flux Capacitor and the time machine.
Also, the time circuits getting struck by lightning isn't what caused the duplication. It was a gigawatt overload going through the flux capacitor. In case you don't remember, the flux capacitor requires 1.21 gigawatts of electricity in order to activate temporal displacement, or time travel in layman's terms. Imagine what would happen if double that amount were suddenly pumped into the flux capacitor. Yes it's pseudoscience. But then again, so is the entire premise of the time machine in the first place.
I know I've defended that theory in the past, but since it's been knocked out of the running, here are the reasons why it would be an even bigger cop out:
There's a difference between 'an idea being a cop-out' (and new DeLorean technically isn't, it's a reasonable and simple explanation) and 'it being impossible/implausible in a set of circumstances' (and in the set of circumstances we have in the game, which you've all listed, I do agree that it's not that plausible).
And, as long as the time duplicate stuff isn't played out in the plot (I hope it will) it's as much as a cop-out as 'new DeLorean' or 'no/vague explanation'.
It occurs to me that the DeLorean explanation is an optional dialogue choice, so if you want, you can skip it altogether as it has no bearing on the plot, and it probably won't play out or be explored more in the rest of the season (since many people seem to have missed the conversations you can have with Doc in jail altogether, and you can't suddenly spring this info on people if they missed it). You can always just ignore it and pretend it's a newly built DeLorean, or that it just appeared out of thin air, or whatever floats your boat. That said, I'm accepting the DeLorean explanation we got as "game canon" that was obviously approved by Bob Gale.
Sorry, but building a new time machine out of a DeLorean makes no sense at all. I know I've defended that theory in the past, but since it's been knocked out of the running, here are the reasons why it would be an even bigger cop out:
1) If Doc could afford another DeLorean, he wouldn't be having financial troubles in 1986.
2) For Doc to get another DeLorean that is either in very good condition or brand spankin new, he would have to return to the 1980's, and in that case, why wouldn't he at least visit Marty and check up on things?
3) One thing that would hinge on Doc building another car is that we all assumed he had the blueprints. The first part of the episode before the DeLorean arrives proves this isn't the case. The notebook that Marty has to get from Biff has all the plans for the Flux Capacitor and the time machine.
Also, the time circuits getting struck by lightning isn't what caused the duplication. It was a gigawatt overload going through the flux capacitor. In case you don't remember, the flux capacitor requires 1.21 gigawatts of electricity in order to activate temporal displacement, or time travel in layman's terms. Imagine what would happen if double that amount were suddenly pumped into the flux capacitor. Yes it's pseudoscience. But then again, so is the entire premise of the time machine in the first place.
Yet he could still afford a steam train with hover conversion.
Oh and rebuild the flux capacitor and time circuits for said train by memory.
It occurs to me that the DeLorean explanation is an optional dialogue choice, so if you want, you can skip it altogether as it has no bearing on the plot, and it probably won't play out or be explored more in the rest of the season (since many people seem to have missed the conversations you can have with Doc in jail altogether, and you can't suddenly spring this info on people if they missed it). You can always just ignore it and pretend it's a newly built DeLorean, or that it just appeared out of thin air, or whatever floats your boat. That said, I'm accepting the DeLorean explanation we got as "game canon" that was obviously approved by Bob Gale.
There's a difference between 'accepting' and 'liking' And I've got to stop using 'There's a difference' phrase.... Ahem. Anyway, I don't LIKE the explanation, but optional or not, it IS an official explanation and I HAVE to accept it. But my liking of it depends on it's bearing of the plot - if it has no bearing absolutely and is there to, well, basically, have an explanation - then I will like it even LESS. If it will be played out - I'll like it more, even more if it will be played out in an interesting manner.
But, so far, most of the optional dialogs with Doc, though optional, don't necesserily have to bear no bearing on the plot (which gives me hope). Clara/kids question is kind of a reason why Doc is in 1931 in the first place, the name of Marty's grandmother (considering the meeting with his grandfather) is most likely mentioned not out of air, Doc says in an optional dialog that he and Edna never met so it's clear that them meeting would possibly make a big change of the future (and it's kind of hinted in Docs/Edna's first meeting too), Doc also mentions the Hill Valley Expo (I think the Expo one was an optional), and it will be vital in Ep4, so I really hope that the DeLorean dialog is not optional because it doesn't have absolutely any bearing, but because it's not that important YET.
Yet he could still afford a steam train with hover conversion.
Oh and rebuild the flux capacitor and time circuits for said train by memory.
To be honest, we don't know if the flux capacitor and the time circuits are the same for the DeLorean as they would've been for a train (with mostly 1885 technology). Doc DID send some schematics to the future (and the small time circuit was replaced by some kind of... big thing on the hood of the car Meaning that 1885 technology would have an even bigger time circuit, hence the train ), and obviously he knows how the flux capacitor would work, being it's creator and all, but the flux capacitor for something running on steam may be very different from something running on electricity. And rebuilding means making the same.
The train was probably salvage from the crash. As for the hover conversion, there's no telling where that came from.
Huh? Who says that's the same train which crashed? It could be a new one, that doesn't matter (and I actually think that salvaging and rebuilding something from scraps would be a very bad idea, especially for a Time Machine)
And there is telling where the hover conversion came from. The End of BttF3, Marty asks if Doc's going to the future, Doc says that he's already been there, and poof! Flying train.
Huh? Who says that's the same train which crashed? It could be a new one, that doesn't matter (and I actually think that salvaging and rebuilding something from scraps would be a very bad idea, especially for a Time Machine)
And there is telling where the hover conversion came from. The End of BttF3, Marty asks if Doc's going to the future, Doc says that he's already been there, and poof! Flying train.
1) If Doc could afford another DeLorean, he wouldn't be having financial troubles in 1986.
All of his "financial troubles" in 1986 are a result of him, you know, not BEING in 1986. We saw in Part II that he is prepared for all financial situations; if he actually spent any time in 1986, he'd be able to pay off his debts.
Does Doc Brown still have the steam locomotive time machine? Or did that get destroyed somehow? I'll be playing the game around Christmas Day I assume (or a bit later).
It seems to me that...
...Clara probably has the train. In one of the optional dialogue trees Doc mentions that in his timeline enough time has passed since Marty's seen Doc that Jules and Verne are now teenagers. When you follow up on that by asking about how Clara and the boys are doing, Doc mentions they're trying to decide what era to send Jules and Verne to college in. He also mentions why he initially came to 1931 (to pick up an out-of-print book as a gift for Clara). The impression I got as a result was that Clara, Jules and Verne may have taken the train to scout potential eras for college, while Doc took the future-duplicated DeLorean and went off to 1931 to pick up a gift for Clara, intending to give it to her when she gets back.
I agree that it's a cheap explanation unless there's a second Doc. But then, there're some pretty cheap explanations for things that happen in the second and third movies. I think they figured that players would really want to drive the Delorean, so there needed to be some sort of explanation.
2) For Doc to get another DeLorean that is either in very good condition or brand spankin new, he would have to return to the 1980's, and in that case, why wouldn't he at least visit Marty and check up on things?
3) One thing that would hinge on Doc building another car is that we all assumed he had the blueprints. The first part of the episode before the DeLorean arrives proves this isn't the case. The notebook that Marty has to get from Biff has all the plans for the Flux Capacitor and the time machine.
He made a time machine out of a train, so he obviously has the plans for time circuits ready..and thanks to modern FPGAs and modern microcontrollers a new design with modern technology would probably end up much cheaper than a 1986 equivalent
Note that he said his boys were teenager..so this doc obviously spent years after the events of bttf III, giving him all the time needed to build a new machine if he wanted it.
In fact, in an interview that launched another thread, Bob Gale noted the return of the DeLorean, saying "You just have to have it" so obviously he's aware of the reasoning behind it.
At first I was a little dissapointed about the explanation somehow.
Now I think it is okay, they can go further with it within the storyline.
If they don't it is still okay, I wanted the car as long as I have the car I am happy.
At first I was a little dissapointed about the explanation somehow.
Now I think it is okay, they can go further with it within the storyline.
If they don't it is still okay, I wanted the car as long as I have the car I am happy.
What if the last episode requires that the DeLorean be destroyed again?
It could be the same car, with the same Doc, with no real trickery.
We know Marty is the Marty after the third movie - because of the photo in his room.
But do we actually know that Doc is not an earlier Doc? He left Marty at the end of the first movie - we don't know for how long he travelled or what he got up to before he came back.
From his perspective the games might take place between movies 1 & 2...
It could be the same car, with the same Doc, with no real trickery.
We know Marty is the Marty after the third movie - because of the photo in his room.
But do we actually know that Doc is not an earlier Doc? He left Marty at the end of the first movie - we don't know for how long he travelled or what he got up to before he came back.
From his perspective the games might take place between movies 1 & 2...
I've got to say that I agree 100% with the analysis that Guy.. posted! I, too, thought that the game's intro sequence with the Delorean not reappearing when it should have, was going to be some amazingly cool plot device relating to Doc borrowing the Delorean and failing to return it to the Twin Pines Mall (and also the reason why the car turns up in May 1986 with Einstein still inside). I was quite disappointed when this turned out to be a dream (I remain hopeful that this dream might actually be a premonition that will be revisited in a later episode). But it was Doc's later explanation of the duplicated Delorean that put a real downer on this episode for me.
Some fans will think the duplication makes sense, while others will concur that it seems like a lazy cop-out, as I do. I think if Bob Gale authorized this, then sadly it looks like he's succumbed to the same type of writer's atrophy that George Lucas has suffered over the past decade!
What it really comes down to is this: Why did Telltale choose a controversial method of explaining the new Delorean which they knew 50% of the fan base would disagree with? Surely it makes more sense to stick with the rules already established in the trilogy so that closer to 100% of the fanbase would accept the explanation of a second Delorean.
This is a pretty big deal, because for a first episode, TellTale should want to leave as many fans as possible with an overall positive feeling. As things stand, they now have a fan base that's heavily divided on an important issue, which could have easily been avoided with a more plausible explanation that every fan could accept.
Some fans may not like the idea of Doc creating a new Delorean Time Machine or borrowing the existing one from another time era. But even dissenters can't argue that it would be implausible or that it doesn't work within the logic and framework established by the films. The same cannot be said about the duplication theory which asks EVERY fan to accept it when no precedent of temporal cloning has previously been set by the films and when it's highly illogical, relying on "maybes" and assumptions to try and justify things. Seems like catering to their upcoming plot devices, whatever they may be, trumps respecting the pre-established canonical rules of the BTTF universe.
What it really comes down to is this: Why did Telltale choose a controversial method of explaining the new Delorean which they knew 50% of the fan base would disagree with? Surely it makes more sense to stick with the rules already established in the trilogy so that closer to 100% of the fanbase would accept the explanation of a second Delorean.
There were only two other possible explanations for the reappearance of the DeLorean: either Doc took it from some point in the movies' timeline, or he built a new one. The former would have created a paradox no matter when he took the DeLorean from. It would have been implausible, and would not have worked within the logic of the films. The latter many here (Origami most vocally) felt would have been a bigger cop out and "lazier" writing than the temporal duplicate explanation. So the fanbase, on this forum anyway, was already divided 50/50 about which explanation would be better. Telltale and Bob Gale actually had the audacity to think up an explanation that was intended to (but apparently did not) appease both those who wanted it to be a new DeLorean, and those who wanted the old DeLorean, since it's a little bit of both (a new version of the old DeLorean).
If the dream sequence was what was actually happening, none of the events in the game would be possible, since Doc disappeared and Marty would have never traveled through time in the first place.
And I don't see what the problem with adding new information to how time travel works to the established canon is, as long as it doesn't contradict established canon. Which the temporal duplication explanation does not, since you can still watch the trilogy and everything within it is still coherent without even having to think about temporal duplication.
I am confident the splitting of the DeLorean will be further discussed in episode 4 "Double Visions" and episode 5.
Like I said, I think it's a great explanation. But I do understand peoples' frustration with it just being explained through one optional line. I suspect this was done because in episode 1 the focus lied somewhere else. Episode 1 served as a welcome back and had us visit a new era with the goal of saving Doc. I hope and believe future episodes will delve deeper on certain plot points.
I am confident the splitting of the DeLorean will be further discussed in episode 4 "Double Visions" and episode 5.
Like I said, I think it's a great explanation. But I do understand peoples' frustration with it just being explained through one optional line. I suspect this was done because in episode 1 the focus lied somewhere else. Episode 1 served as a welcome back and had us visit a new era with the goal of saving Doc. I hope and believe future episodes will delve deeper on certain plot points.
Agreed. I really love the explanation because it was unexpected. In fact, I was pretty much the only one who even considered it.
Yeah, it makes a decent amount of sense to me. Time travel is a lot like teleportation, in that you disappear completely from one place and time, and then reappear from nothing in another. A lot of teleportation concepts seem to involve the idea that rather than sending your actual atoms along, they just send the information of your atom layouts to the receiving point, and then rebuild you from the air atoms that are already on the other side, and dissipate your atoms from the departing side. In that case, you're effectively creating a duplicate anyway, so it's not particularly implausible that there'd be two duplicates created in the event of an accidental overload. I do agree that in such a case, there ought to be a duplicate Doc as well, but they could handwave that away and it wouldn't really bother me.
Comments
I do hope they have some sort of alternate revelation planned as the existence of the time machine is what this whole story is hinging on, and the current explanation is satisfyingly vague and far fetched, I agree (whereas everything else fits into the universe quite well)
When the car didn't re-appear my jaw hit the floor and I thought they'd come up with some awesome reason as to why that happened and thus explaining how Doc still has a DeLorean (he stole the first one, from himself). Especially when the car first re-appeared with just Einstein in it, I still thought the prologue could be part of the storyline.
When I realised it was just an emotional dream sequence, I was still cool with it, but then when given the explanation of a magic second DeLorean I can't help but feel a little a saddened by that when compared to my initial feelings about the prologue and I hoped that played into the story that was coming up.
Sorry, but building a new time machine out of a DeLorean makes no sense at all. I know I've defended that theory in the past, but since it's been knocked out of the running, here are the reasons why it would be an even bigger cop out:
1) If Doc could afford another DeLorean, he wouldn't be having financial troubles in 1986.
2) For Doc to get another DeLorean that is either in very good condition or brand spankin new, he would have to return to the 1980's, and in that case, why wouldn't he at least visit Marty and check up on things?
3) One thing that would hinge on Doc building another car is that we all assumed he had the blueprints. The first part of the episode before the DeLorean arrives proves this isn't the case. The notebook that Marty has to get from Biff has all the plans for the Flux Capacitor and the time machine.
Also, the time circuits getting struck by lightning isn't what caused the duplication. It was a gigawatt overload going through the flux capacitor. In case you don't remember, the flux capacitor requires 1.21 gigawatts of electricity in order to activate temporal displacement, or time travel in layman's terms. Imagine what would happen if double that amount were suddenly pumped into the flux capacitor. Yes it's pseudoscience. But then again, so is the entire premise of the time machine in the first place.
There's a difference between 'an idea being a cop-out' (and new DeLorean technically isn't, it's a reasonable and simple explanation) and 'it being impossible/implausible in a set of circumstances' (and in the set of circumstances we have in the game, which you've all listed, I do agree that it's not that plausible).
And, as long as the time duplicate stuff isn't played out in the plot (I hope it will) it's as much as a cop-out as 'new DeLorean' or 'no/vague explanation'.
Yet he could still afford a steam train with hover conversion.
Oh and rebuild the flux capacitor and time circuits for said train by memory.
There's a difference between 'accepting' and 'liking'
But, so far, most of the optional dialogs with Doc, though optional, don't necesserily have to bear no bearing on the plot (which gives me hope). Clara/kids question is kind of a reason why Doc is in 1931 in the first place, the name of Marty's grandmother (considering the meeting with his grandfather) is most likely mentioned not out of air, Doc says in an optional dialog that he and Edna never met so it's clear that them meeting would possibly make a big change of the future (and it's kind of hinted in Docs/Edna's first meeting too), Doc also mentions the Hill Valley Expo (I think the Expo one was an optional), and it will be vital in Ep4, so I really hope that the DeLorean dialog is not optional because it doesn't have absolutely any bearing, but because it's not that important YET.
To be honest, we don't know if the flux capacitor and the time circuits are the same for the DeLorean as they would've been for a train (with mostly 1885 technology). Doc DID send some schematics to the future (and the small time circuit was replaced by some kind of... big thing on the hood of the car
As for the flux capacitor and the time circuits, they were built differently than the DeLorean's.
Huh? Who says that's the same train which crashed? It could be a new one, that doesn't matter (and I actually think that salvaging and rebuilding something from scraps would be a very bad idea, especially for a Time Machine)
And there is telling where the hover conversion came from. The End of BttF3, Marty asks if Doc's going to the future, Doc says that he's already been there, and poof! Flying train.
I meant financially.
Oh. Well, financially speaking he could steal stuff. You know, for science!
All of his "financial troubles" in 1986 are a result of him, you know, not BEING in 1986. We saw in Part II that he is prepared for all financial situations; if he actually spent any time in 1986, he'd be able to pay off his debts.
It seems to me that...
Hmmm.. maybe this might actually be looked at in the episode titled "Double Vision" Anything is possible.
You can buy a brands new delorean today, so no time travel necessary (and probably also in 10 years)
http://www.delorean.com/newbuild.asp He made a time machine out of a train, so he obviously has the plans for time circuits ready..and thanks to modern FPGAs and modern microcontrollers a new design with modern technology would probably end up much cheaper than a 1986 equivalent
Note that he said his boys were teenager..so this doc obviously spent years after the events of bttf III, giving him all the time needed to build a new machine if he wanted it.
Now I think it is okay, they can go further with it within the storyline.
If they don't it is still okay, I wanted the car as long as I have the car I am happy.
What if the last episode requires that the DeLorean be destroyed again?
Then I wait for Bttf the game Season 2
We know Marty is the Marty after the third movie - because of the photo in his room.
But do we actually know that Doc is not an earlier Doc? He left Marty at the end of the first movie - we don't know for how long he travelled or what he got up to before he came back.
From his perspective the games might take place between movies 1 & 2...
Doc mentions his family and wears a wedding ring.
Ah, I missed that, oh well!
/edit
reading bits on this forum, it looks like I missed a few bits of optional dialogue...time for a second playthough!
Not to mention that after the dream at the beginning, he sees the picture of him and Doc by the clock at 1885.
I wish that the shot of the picture were a little more head on instead of at that slight angle....I want that as a wallpaper, it's soooo well done.
Some fans will think the duplication makes sense, while others will concur that it seems like a lazy cop-out, as I do. I think if Bob Gale authorized this, then sadly it looks like he's succumbed to the same type of writer's atrophy that George Lucas has suffered over the past decade!
What it really comes down to is this: Why did Telltale choose a controversial method of explaining the new Delorean which they knew 50% of the fan base would disagree with? Surely it makes more sense to stick with the rules already established in the trilogy so that closer to 100% of the fanbase would accept the explanation of a second Delorean.
This is a pretty big deal, because for a first episode, TellTale should want to leave as many fans as possible with an overall positive feeling. As things stand, they now have a fan base that's heavily divided on an important issue, which could have easily been avoided with a more plausible explanation that every fan could accept.
Some fans may not like the idea of Doc creating a new Delorean Time Machine or borrowing the existing one from another time era. But even dissenters can't argue that it would be implausible or that it doesn't work within the logic and framework established by the films. The same cannot be said about the duplication theory which asks EVERY fan to accept it when no precedent of temporal cloning has previously been set by the films and when it's highly illogical, relying on "maybes" and assumptions to try and justify things. Seems like catering to their upcoming plot devices, whatever they may be, trumps respecting the pre-established canonical rules of the BTTF universe.
Let's just hope Doc was lying, eh?
If the dream sequence was what was actually happening, none of the events in the game would be possible, since Doc disappeared and Marty would have never traveled through time in the first place.
And I don't see what the problem with adding new information to how time travel works to the established canon is, as long as it doesn't contradict established canon. Which the temporal duplication explanation does not, since you can still watch the trilogy and everything within it is still coherent without even having to think about temporal duplication.
Like I said, I think it's a great explanation. But I do understand peoples' frustration with it just being explained through one optional line. I suspect this was done because in episode 1 the focus lied somewhere else. Episode 1 served as a welcome back and had us visit a new era with the goal of saving Doc. I hope and believe future episodes will delve deeper on certain plot points.
Agreed. I really love the explanation because it was unexpected. In fact, I was pretty much the only one who even considered it.