I bet soggy zombies bloat and float. It's not like they're worried about drowning, I don't see a shoreline stopping them.
My friends and I argued a similar topic about this. Humans float because of their filled lungs. Meat sinks. Decomposing corpses fill with air and float.
So zombies probably have a sweet zone where they don't bloat up and remain pretty relaxed at the bottom of the sea snatching at fish. Either way though, water doesn't stop zombies. They mostly chase sound without hesitation.
I guess the best cure for zombies is to make a lot of noise in the center of the Pacific.
My friends and I argued a similar topic about this. Humans float because of their filled lungs. Meat sinks. Decomposing corpses fill with air and float.
So zombies probably have a sweet zone where they don't bloat up and remain pretty relaxed at the bottom of the sea snatching at fish. Either way though, water doesn't stop zombies. They mostly chase sound without hesitation.
I guess the best cure for zombies is to make a lot of noise in the center of the Pacific.
I've got to stop reading these posts at dinner time.....
The problem with this is that at the motel, they're relying on scavenging from a finite food supply. So staying there pretty much guarantees that they'll die sooner or later. Personally, I'd rather take the chance that we might not be able to find supplies elsewhere than the certainty of running out of food at the motel.
As far as water goes, they can always go back ashore to resupply, as is pointed out above. Also, it wouldn't be too difficult to set up a system for purifying water. So it's not that dire.
Basic survivalism, you should have atleast three days supply of fresh water, and a person needs a bare minimum of a gallon per day for drinking and sanitation. Double that figure for a warm climate (like say, Georgia), and increase it further to account for physical activity (and kids may need even more water beyond that). That's a minimum of about 50 lbs. of water per person even if we only account for the climate (and ignore the fact that the group has both kids and members that are physically active):
Two gallons per day per person, at 8.3 lbs. per gallon, times three days and further multiply it by five (the number of people in a hypothetical Kenny's family + Lee and Clem group), they're looking at lugging around close to atleast 250 lbs. of water, and that's being unrealistically conservative. Even worse, you can realistically only split that near-250 lbs. among three people, and more realistically two for any hypothetical supply run; the kids literally can't carry their own water. So if the kids stay behind at the boat with adult supervision (e.g. Katjaa), that leaves Lee and Kenny trying to find and fetch 125 lbs. of fresh water each just for basic survival. Even with a vehicle that's stupidly demanding and time-consuming (since they still need to bring water to that vehicle, load it, etc.). That's just for water, not supplementary food, fuel, etc.
The lack of food at the inn can be attributed to the group's inexperience with hunting/trapping since we know there's wildlife in the area, and even in spite of that, if you can justify trying to forage for supplies in a densely populated coastal area in another state (where Kenny's boat is), there's no reason you couldn't justify trying to gank a crate or two of MRE's from the supply area of a nearby military base or what have you. Hell, as of Episode 2 we know there's farms in the area too... which isn't exactly surprising since nearly a third of the land in Georgia is farmland.
That number is skewed, though, because a lot of cities are built along the coast, and metropolitan areas obviously have much higher population densities. There's still enough coast land between cities with low enough populations for a small group to sneak ashore on a dingy to resupply. Not to mention that there are a number of islands along the coast with relatively low populations.
There's also no reason to assume that the zombies will stay in the population centers. It's not like they still need to be close to the office. I realize the games are based on the comic book continuity, but in the TV show at least, they do show the walkers eventually starting to spread out from the cities. Which makes sense to me, since there's no reason for them to stay in the cities once there are no more brains to eat.
That's exactly the point though; most population centers are on the coast, i.e. where most people live. This is why if you're lost and you end up making the decision to affect self-rescue, you typically head towards a coastline - odds are you're going to run into people. In most survival situations, it's valid, if everybody's dead and trying to eat you? Not so much.
We know Kenny's family is from Ft. Lauderdale, so odds are that's where his boat is. It's within a major metropolitan area, hell, Miami's within 30 miles of it and the only places in the country that have higher population densities are in New York and California. It also means that quite a few people had a chance to gank that boat while Kenny was in Georgia when the shit hit the fan.
I agree with you that a good, well-supplied bunker would make a much better base than Kenny's boat. I guess the only problem with it is that they don't have one. So there's no reason to keep bringing it up since it's not even an option. They do have a boat. And all things considered, I think you could do a lot worse than setting up in a place that you can at least take offshore during the night so you don't have to worry about unexpected zombie attacks (I can't imagine zombies being terribly good swimmers).
Though I kind of suspect that the stuff about Kenny's boat may be setting up for an ending where the survivors retire to some zombie-free island. Kind of like Sarah and company in Day of the Dead.
Pretty much any reasonably fortified position (particularly those away from the coastline) would be a better option than the boat, which was the point. This is why we build them, whether it's a proper bunker, a guy's basement, or even the motel ingame. As I pointed out above, we don't know if they have a boat, and realistically the odds would be very much against it; Kenny hasn't been within 500 miles of the thing for over three months, literally millions of people had better and easier access to that boat than he did. Incidentally, that's also a 500+ mile trip they need to make to reach where the boat is (or more realistically was) for really questionable gain.
I've sided with Kenny from the beginning because, though either "team" has a good point and a valid perspective that they're coming from, Kenny just seems like a nicer person. However, I recently started a new save where I sided with Lilly, and she's a much better person in that version of my game. Either way, I think Larry's a dick. When I sided with Larry, he still punched me out and Kenny still saved me. (Which made me still like Kenny lol.)
someone whos posts aren't just slams. grow up and take the trash out, you know your mom has asked a couple times now...You can finish your Gossip Girl fanfic later;)
So zombies probably have a sweet zone where they don't bloat up and remain pretty relaxed at the bottom of the sea snatching at fish. Either way though, water doesn't stop zombies.
It certainly wouldn't kill them, since they're already dead. The real issue, though, isn't buoyancy so much as propulsion. Moving through water requires a lot muscle use, which is something we don't really see much of in zombies. They just kind of shamble forward. So if they were to walk into the water, regardless of whether they sink or float, there's nothing to keep them from being swept away by the current.
...that leaves Lee and Kenny trying to find and fetch 125 lbs. of fresh water each just for basic survival. Even with a vehicle that's stupidly demanding and time-consuming (since they still need to bring water to that vehicle, load it, etc.). That's just for water, not supplementary food, fuel, etc.
Which is something they have to do anyway. It's not like the motel still has running water. Which means any clean drinking water they have on hand was carried there.
The lack of food at the inn can be attributed to the group's inexperience with hunting/trapping since we know there's wildlife in the area, and even in spite of that, if you can justify trying to forage for supplies in a densely populated coastal area in another state (where Kenny's boat is), there's no reason you couldn't justify trying to gank a crate or two of MRE's from the supply area of a nearby military base or what have you. Hell, as of Episode 2 we know there's farms in the area too... which isn't exactly surprising since nearly a third of the land in Georgia is farmland.
Preexisting supplies (like MREs) won't last long without someone bringing in more stock on a regular basis. And most of what was there likely would have already been looted during the course of the first three months.
Food from farms might bolster your supplies for a time. The problem with that is that while agriculture is good for producing a great quantity of food on a more reliable basis, it doesn't exactly make for a diverse, self-sustaining ecosystem. It's also very labor intensive. So all of that farmland isn't going to last for long without people maintaining it.
Hunting could work as a long-term solution. But the lack of food isn't just a result of the group being inexperienced. Most metropolitan areas don't generally have a lot wildlife. So if you want to find enough to live on, you're going to have to leave Macon. And even then, you wouldn't want to just stay in one place. There's a reason why most hunter-gatherer societies tend to move around. They have to go where the food is. Stay in one place too long, and it gets harder to find decent food. Then you have to go farther and farther out each time you go looking.
That's exactly the point though; most population centers are on the coast, i.e. where most people live. This is why if you're lost and you end up making the decision to affect self-rescue, you typically head towards a coastline - odds are you're going to run into people. In most survival situations, it's valid, if everybody's dead and trying to eat you? Not so much.
Well, my point was that that population is concentrated in certain spots. Your post above made it sound like they would be evenly spread out along the whole length of the east coast, which wouldn't be the case. There would still be plenty of areas where someone who wanted to go ashore could do so without attracting much attention.
It also means that quite a few people had a chance to gank that boat while Kenny was in Georgia when the shit hit the fan.
Yes. This is what I see as the biggest flaw in the boat plan. Once the panic and looting started, what would have stopped someone from just taking Kenny's boat? And even if it is still there, what condition is it in at this point? Is it even still seaworthy?
Ultimately, you're correct that the boat isn't a long-term solution. But in the short-term, it could provide a measure of security and mobility while they look for a place that is safe.
Which is something they have to do anyway. It's not like the motel still has running water. Which means any clean drinking water they have on hand was carried there.
Actually, it is implied the motel still has running water; Lily's whole "the place has everything we need except food" spiel. We don't see any containers laying about the place and we know the St. Johns farm has running water when Lee asks to go to the bathroom to wash up.
Preexisting supplies (like MREs) won't last long without someone bringing in more stock on a regular basis. And most of what was there likely would have already been looted during the course of the first three months.
Food from farms might bolster your supplies for a time. The problem with that is that while agriculture is good for producing a great quantity of food on a more reliable basis, it doesn't exactly make for a diverse, self-sustaining ecosystem. It's also very labor intensive. So all of that farmland isn't going to last for long without people maintaining it.
Hunting could work as a long-term solution. But the lack of food isn't just a result of the group being inexperienced. Most metropolitan areas don't generally have a lot wildlife. So if you want to find enough to live on, you're going to have to leave Macon. And even then, you wouldn't want to just stay in one place. There's a reason why most hunter-gatherer societies tend to move around. They have to go where the food is. Stay in one place too long, and it gets harder to find decent food. Then you have to go farther and farther out each time you go looking.
Thing is, supplies only tend to run out when people are eating them. Zombies don't eat MRE's, canned goods, etc. The fact remains that if you can justify running around a coastline trying to forage for supplies, you can justify trying to get them from anywhere... even places you know are "overrun" (e.g. the base where they found Mark), since all of these problems are going to be even more prevalent on the coast.
And the group is definitely inexperienced with hunting, we don't see any real sign that they tried to supplement active hunting with trapping, for example. Likewise, you're going to start seeing animal populations (e.g. rabbits) balloon within half a year or so too.
Again, making the trip to the boat doesn't solve any of these problems either. Ft. Lauderdale is in a major metropolitan area, and to a far greater extent than Macon; it's within 30 miles of the most densely populated city outside of California or New York.
Well, my point was that that population is concentrated in certain spots. Your post above made it sound like they would be evenly spread out along the whole length of the east coast, which wouldn't be the case. There would still be plenty of areas where someone who wanted to go ashore could do so without attracting much attention.
Where? As I noted, most commercial fishing vessels don't typically carry smaller boats (aside from maybe an inflatable life raft) since it takes deck space away from things like fishing. The places you're likely going to dock to search for supplies are going to be places with low-lying fruit, i.e. places that haven been developed with things like proper ports and realistically have supplies to gank (hell, it's the whole reason settlers landed at Plymouth Rock, it was originally a native town with recently planted corn, cleared fields, a pre-built harbor, etc.).
And it doesn't change that you're still in the largest moving object in a densely populated region where you're far more likely to run into undead people.
Yes. This is what I see as the biggest flaw in the boat plan. Once the panic and looting started, what would have stopped someone from just taking Kenny's boat? And even if it is still there, what condition is it in at this point? Is it even still seaworthy?
Ultimately, you're correct that the boat isn't a long-term solution. But in the short-term, it could provide a measure of security and mobility while they look for a place that is safe.
Not really, it's like saying "Well, it could rain s'mores and bacon, and the zombies could be gone tomorrow"; that doesn't mean you make actionable "plans" (I use the term loosely) based on that assumption, especially not when it entails leaving guaranteed sources of fresh water and making 500 mile trips to places that are only going to have lower numbers of zombies than California or New York (and that's pretty much unavoidable, since that's where the boat is or was).
It certainly wouldn't kill them, since they're already dead. The real issue, though, isn't buoyancy so much as propulsion. Moving through water requires a lot muscle use, which is something we don't really see much of in zombies. They just kind of shamble forward. So if they were to walk into the water, regardless of whether they sink or float, there's nothing to keep them from being swept away by the current.
Correct. So zombies would be swept to sea, bloat up and rise to the surface and get washed up somewhere else. Those would probably be the grossest ones, close to the well zombie from the TV series.
Actually, it is implied the motel still has running water; Lily's whole "the place has everything we need except food" spiel. We don't see any containers laying about the place and we know the St. Johns farm has running water when Lee asks to go to the bathroom to wash up.
It's implied that "the place has everything we need" because it's close to town. Meaning that they're making runs into Macon to keep their supplies stocked. There's no reason to think that there's still water running there, especially since we already saw the power go out three months before so there's nothing to keep the pumping stations operational. In this kind of scenario, utilities would pretty much be the first thing to go. No, we don't see a lot of water containers around the parking lot, but we also don't get to see the whole location. They could be storing their supplies inside the motel or in the RV.
As for the St. Johns... could have just been an oversight on Telltale's part. But we also saw that they had made a lot of their own improvements to the property, so it may be that they have their own water supply that they're using too.
Thing is, supplies only tend to run out when people are eating them. Zombies don't eat MRE's, canned goods, etc.
No, but there are still a lot of survivors running around. And the first thing they're going to do is grab whatever food is left. Heck, we already saw in Episode 2, the first thing people did was head to the Save Lots. Without any way to resupply, that's not going to last very long.
The other thing is that you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. It's safe to assume that the most easily accessible food is going to be grabbed first. Once that's gone, you have to work a little bit harder to find more. And each time, it gets a little bit harder. Until eventually, there may still be some food left somewhere in the city, but it's not worth the time and effort it would take to go searching for it.
And the group is definitely inexperienced with hunting, we don't see any real sign that they tried to supplement active hunting with trapping, for example.
Well first of all, we're not really given any indication about any of their levels of experience with hunting one way or the other. I generally take that to mean the player can decide for his or her self whether their Lee is a hunter or not. It's a common enough sport that it wouldn't be unbelievable that Lee did some hunting before the zombie apocalypse. We don't see them trying to use traps, but that doesn't mean that they weren't. It's entirely possible that they tried that too and simply didn't catch anything. Because again, there's not much wildlife in a metropolitan area like Macon. And they're obviously competing with the walkers for what few animals there are.
Either way, that's not really the point. They could be the best hunters in the whole world. That's still not going to help them if they decide to stay in one spot where there's hardly anything to hunt. In order to be successful at hunting, you have to first go to where the food is. It only works as a survival strategy if your group maintains a certain level of mobility.
Likewise, you're going to start seeing animal populations (e.g. rabbits) balloon within half a year or so too.
That may not be the case since, as we see at the beginning of Episode 2, the walkers are also eating animals like rabbits. That could keep the population pretty low.
But for the sake of argument, let's take them out of the picture and assume you're right. With the significantly reduced human population and lack of maintenance on the cities, the wildlife population would certainly bounce back. The thing is, metropolitan areas would be the absolute last places to rewild. You're starting off with an area that's practically dead. Just concrete and a few weeds. Some small animals may go through, but you're not going to get significant increases in the animal population until more plants start growing in that they can eat. That's going to take a while because concrete doesn't exactly make for very good growing conditions, and what soil there is has all kinds of nasty toxins and chemicals in it. Now the Earth is pretty darn resilient, so it would grow in eventually, and probably a lot faster than most people would think. But half a year seems awfully optimistic.
But again, just for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right. In half a year's time, Macon once again has a thriving ecosystem filled with all kinds of animal life. That still doesn't help our survivors much when they're thinking about how they're going to get food today. Six months is a long time to wait for a meal. And that timeframe would be an absolute best case scenario.
As I noted, most commercial fishing vessels don't typically carry smaller boats (aside from maybe an inflatable life raft) since it takes deck space away from things like fishing.
It would kind of depend on the boat, but I'm pretty sure they're actually required to carry lifeboats onboard. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean that Kenny obeys the law. But it's safe to assume that it at least has something like an inflatable raft. And if they really needed one, they could always just take a smaller boat with them since they'd be going to the docks anyway.
That's assuming they need to land on a beach. There are also smaller ports they could head for that wouldn't be as heavily populated as, say, the docks in New York City. And, as I mentioned before, there's no reason to assume that the zombies will stay in the cities for long.
And it doesn't change that you're still in the largest moving object in a densely populated region where you're far more likely to run into undead people.
What does size matter if none of your enemies can reach you? Even assuming one of the walkers spots the boat from the shore, what's he going to do about it? Groan angrily at it? I'm shaking already.
I don't care if Kenny's mad at me now, I'm not actively siding with either of them. I'll cover their butts, if they cover mine (and hopefully I won't have to count on it).
i think once we got to shore stealing a few sail boats would probably be a better idea than a boat with a motor, but maybe initially a boat with a motor would be good, a few solar stills would help with water, but rivers are full of water and they head towards the sea so boiling water from rivers would get enough water to survive, it would be like the film water world but with land that is just to dangerous to live on instead of no land
I was team Kenny until episode 2. His all or nothing attitude made me mad. Plus, Lilly actually seemed to be kinder and more rational in regards to the farm. She got a weird vibe, wanted food to go, and I was with her on both sentiments.
It's hard to say, because if you do back up Kenny then he is the ultimate good guy. He only seems like a jerk when you don't back him up. Lilly does seem to be a little more even tempered, and that is important in a team member.
It's implied that "the place has everything we need" because it's close to town. Meaning that they're making runs into Macon to keep their supplies stocked. There's no reason to think that there's still water running there, especially since we already saw the power go out three months before so there's nothing to keep the pumping stations operational. In this kind of scenario, utilities would pretty much be the first thing to go. No, we don't see a lot of water containers around the parking lot, but we also don't get to see the whole location. They could be storing their supplies inside the motel or in the RV.
As for the St. Johns... could have just been an oversight on Telltale's part. But we also saw that they had made a lot of their own improvements to the property, so it may be that they have their own water supply that they're using too.
The water situation is mentioned when they first settle at the place in Episode 1 (where it's explicitly said the motel has running water), and Lilly makes it a point to state when needed resources are offsite (e.g. her dad's pills at the pharmacy). We know the farm has running water, and none of the motel survivors are apparently wowed that the St. Johns don't need to lug damn near a quarter-ton of water around with them (the full group is 9 people prior to Ben's arrival, again, 50 lbs. per person for a three day supply, and even that's being unrealistically conservative). And of course, not everyone can carry their own water or participate; the kids definately can't, it's unlikely Larry left the motel all that often, etc.
Hell, they don't even have a functional vehicle that can conceivably haul that much around in a single go, plus passengers, and that's excluding any other supplies and ignores the fact we've only seen the group move on foot since settling at the inn. Nevermind hunting or building fences, they'd be spending all their time fetching water if they lacked a running supply onsite.
Even more damning, a lack of running water would mean they're fetching it from the wild (unless there's mysteriously still bottles of Arrowhead laying around, yet no food), e.g. nearby ponds, rivers, steams, etc. which means they'd have to boil it too, which would necessitate fire since the power's out (it's kinda rare for a motel room to have a stove) and we don't see a campfire outside.
No, but there are still a lot of survivors running around. And the first thing they're going to do is grab whatever food is left. Heck, we already saw in Episode 2, the first thing people did was head to the Save Lots. Without any way to resupply, that's not going to last very long.
Actually, as we learn from Andy the employees/bandits told people to gather there; we don't know how many actually did, and seriously, it's not like the bandits were known for being caring and sharing (hell, they shoot each other in the face).
We've seen a total of maybe two dozen people in the area, including Lee's group. That kinda puts a maximum on how much of the area's resources have actually been consumed.
The other thing is that you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. It's safe to assume that the most easily accessible food is going to be grabbed first. Once that's gone, you have to work a little bit harder to find more. And each time, it gets a little bit harder. Until eventually, there may still be some food left somewhere in the city, but it's not worth the time and effort it would take to go searching for it.
That's true no matter where you go; standard figure for a disaster is that low-lying fruit is going to be gone within six months or so. To reiterate however, since this point hasn't been answered, the fact remains that if you can justify a 500-mile trip to one of the most densely populated regions in the country (which is in no way, shape, or form optional, since that's where the boat is) you can justify going pretty much anywhere to look for supplies, even places you know have been "overrun" like the St. Johns farm (which had a decent crop of corn), etc. since statistically those places are going to have far fewer zombies than you'd find trying to reach the boat.
Well first of all, we're not really given any indication about any of their levels of experience with hunting one way or the other. I generally take that to mean the player can decide for his or her self whether their Lee is a hunter or not. It's a common enough sport that it wouldn't be unbelievable that Lee did some hunting before the zombie apocalypse. We don't see them trying to use traps, but that doesn't mean that they weren't. It's entirely possible that they tried that too and simply didn't catch anything. Because again, there's not much wildlife in a metropolitan area like Macon. And they're obviously competing with the walkers for what few animals there are.
Incorrect, Lee admits as much when chatting with Danny about the fact he knew how to handle the rifle Danny let him borrow; Lee credits Lilly as being the one that trained the group on how to use the weapons they had.
Hell, from the first zombie in Ep. 1 we can see that Lee's pretty much never really handled a firearm in his life considering he doesn't even brace the stock against his shoulder (not exactly surprising considering the guy was a civics professor)... and this is something that Lee just happens to pick up on during Ep. 2 while searching for the camp with Danny (i.e. after Lilly trained the group).
Appeal to ignorance on trapping too; It's never even implied they attempted it, and as the old saying goes in that regard "It's called trapping, not killing", you wouldn't throw in the towel after a failed attempt anyway. Again, pretty basic survivalism, you lay down multiple traps to maximize the chances of catching something.
That may not be the case since, as we see at the beginning of Episode 2, the walkers are also eating animals like rabbits. That could keep the population pretty low.
But for the sake of argument, let's take them out of the picture and assume you're right. With the significantly reduced human population and lack of maintenance on the cities, the wildlife population would certainly bounce back. The thing is, metropolitan areas would be the absolute last places to rewild. You're starting off with an area that's practically dead. Just concrete and a few weeds. Some small animals may go through, but you're not going to get significant increases in the animal population until more plants start growing in that they can eat. That's going to take a while because concrete doesn't exactly make for very good growing conditions, and what soil there is has all kinds of nasty toxins and chemicals in it. Now the Earth is pretty darn resilient, so it would grow in eventually, and probably a lot faster than most people would think. But half a year seems awfully optimistic.
But again, just for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right. In half a year's time, Macon once again has a thriving ecosystem filled with all kinds of animal life. That still doesn't help our survivors much when they're thinking about how they're going to get food today. Six months is a long time to wait for a meal. And that timeframe would be an absolute best case scenario.
1.) We saw one zombie eating one rabbit; and that rabbit could well have been dead beforehand. We didn't see the zombie actually catch the thing (considering they move more slowly than old people with walkers, not exactly surprising). Likewise, this isn't a plus in favor of the boat, since that problem will only increase on the coastline.
2.) We can see that the motel's right next to the woods, they're not exactly in the middle of downtown. Likewise, nearly a third of Georgia is farmland (hell, they're within walking distance of atleast one).
Even so, the entire Macon metropolitan area consisting of five counties has a population a little under a quarter million. By contrast, the population of the metropolitan area you need to go just to have a chance of fetching the boat? More than than 5 and a half million, a little over 20 times higher, and docks do actually tend to be built in highly developed areas.
3.) It's already been three months, and they found enough to supply them for that long when they found Mark, that leaves another three months. Simply put, pretty much any plan short of heading to Manhattan for Ice Cream is better than making that 500+ mile trip to Florida. And again, really basic survivalism, starvation takes weeks to kill you, dehydration will kill you in days. They can't take their water source with them on their 500+ mile trip.
Even leaving aside little things like the fact one area has farmland within walking distance, Which area is realistically going to suffer resource exhaustion first? The one that had a bit under a quarter million people living in it, or the one that had over five and a half million?
Um... anywhere along the entire east coast?
Which is still the most densely populated area of the country, i.e. where you're far more likely to run into zombie hordes that dwarf anything we've seen in the series thus far.
It would kind of depend on the boat, but I'm pretty sure they're actually required to carry lifeboats onboard. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean that Kenny obeys the law. But it's safe to assume that it at least has something like an inflatable raft. And if they really needed one, they could always just take a smaller boat with them since they'd be going to the docks anyway.
They're only "required" to carry an inflatable depending on where the vessel operates.
And again, the plan requires reaching the docks in one of the most populous regions in the country (and there's no reason to assume the zombies left), assumes the boats weren't ganked by the millions of people who had better access to them over the past few months, and there's also the fact Lee's shown zero indication he knows a thing about boating.
What does size matter if none of your enemies can reach you? Even assuming one of the walkers spots the boat from the shore, what's he going to do about it? Groan angrily at it? I'm shaking already.
They can keep you from docking, and that's really all they need to do to kill you as the boat plan requires stupidly isolating yourself from even the most basic supplies after having just made a 500+ mile trip. All you're doing is basically putting a wall between yourself and the resources of the mainland. Over millenia of history, people fortified themselves on land and not sea for a reason, the same rationale holds true here. There's nowhere you can go that you're not realistically going to attract attention, and everytime you happen to find that you need to go somewhere else that's fuel you can't replace.
Um... okay. That doesn't actually make any sense, but whatever.
It makes as much sense as saying "well, it could provide...", what I suggested is only slightly less probable (and I covered why, which you coincidentally didn't include). You don't base plans on "could", it's drilled into your head in the military or even this little thing called "life" - you hope for the best, plan for the worse - not the other way around.
Heading to an area that statistically has over 20 times as many (now undead) people and hoping to get security out of the bargain is just as valid a strategy as hoping all your problems go away, likewise in hoping that a boat (which you can't refuel since it likely requires thousands of gallons) is somehow going to provide mobility.
Seriously, other than you two, who the hell is reading these novels? Talk about off topic. Maybe you should private message each other?
Hey, I'm reading them. Going to the coast just has way too much risk. It's a moot point in my game though. I failed to "earn" a ride in Kenny's RV. But Lilly wants to stay at the motel and that has risk as well. What to do....
I'm still trying to figure out what happened to all the food. I know it's a game but that part bugs me about e2. I think as long as you have a can opener there is plenty of food to find just about everywhere. I mean, who's eating the food and even if looters took it on ZA +0 days, how far did they get before they got eaten themselves.
Hey, I'm reading them. Going to the coast just has way too much risk. It's a moot point in my game though. I failed to "earn" a ride in Kenny's RV. But Lilly wants to stay at the motel and that has risk as well. What to do....
I'm still trying to figure out what happened to all the food. I know it's a game but that part bugs me about e2. I think as long as you have a can opener there is plenty of food to find just about everywhere. I mean, who's eating the food and even if looters took it on ZA +0 days, how far did they get before they got eaten themselves.
i would say it is lillys poor leadership that is the reason for no food, she had control of the food and didnt inform the others of how much they had until we start the game, and we find out we dont even have enough food for a few bites of food each, what kind of idiot would leave it until you had ran out of food before telling everyone we had ran out?,
with it only being 3 months into the apocalypse and most people dying early on there would be more food than they could eat for a year or so if they had actually looked for it, instead we stay in a near unfortified motel just so we can stay near a pharmacy, that lilly for some reason doesnt want to loot but instead use as a big medicine cabinet for her father.
Who knows, Macon's residents might have taken most of the town's food then ran when the apocalypse hit? Unlikely, yes. Plus, even with a whole lot of food, that shouldn't stop the group from hunting IMO. They could eat the meat they get while hunting immediately, while keeping Mark's commisary food in reserve as a sort of security net just in case the local game begins to dry up. That seems sensible enough to me, and probably what I would have done.
Keeping in mind they're being careful not to draw walkers with gunfire, none of them are used to foraging or hunting, and so far they've had easy pickings with the commissary food. At the start of episode two, they're at the beginning of a steep learning curve.
I didn't mind that he did that. This world is full of people who aren't heroes. I got mad when he said he was the one who made all the hard decisions. Shane from the TV show was the brave hero who made the hard decisions. Kenny isn't so much that. He even hid after saying that.
I still like him though. I want more than ever to get him back on my side.
i dont get why people blame kenny for running with his child from ZOMBIES!! but dont care that lee just stood there after saving duck
For me, it isn't so much he ran away, it's that he didn't have the commen sense to just set Duck down out of reach of the zombies and help Lee. Instead he ran off and cowered with his son.
I didn't mind that he did that. This world is full of people who aren't heroes. I got mad when he said he was the one who made all the hard decisions. Shane from the TV show was the brave hero who made the hard decisions. Kenny isn't so much that. He even hid after saying that.
I still like him though. I want more than ever to get him back on my side.
If he ever gets any oppurtunities to be redeemed, you let me know. I'll try giving him another chance. And yeah, "hard decisions" my ass..only leeching off of what Lee does for the group. In my game, anyway.
For me, it isn't so much he ran away, it's that he didn't have the commen sense to just set Duck down out of reach of the zombies and help Lee. Instead he ran off and cowered with his son.
but what about Lee he wasn't even holding the most important thing in his life in his arms?
I loved Kenny's little speech if you gave him the silent treatment right at the end before finding the car (if you helped Lilly), I think it's the most honest exchange they have. Kenny doesn't recognize Lee as having saved Katjaa and Duck, because Kenny believes he saved Lee first by killing Larry. In his mind, he's the hero.
Comments
Not unexpected.
My friends and I argued a similar topic about this. Humans float because of their filled lungs. Meat sinks. Decomposing corpses fill with air and float.
So zombies probably have a sweet zone where they don't bloat up and remain pretty relaxed at the bottom of the sea snatching at fish. Either way though, water doesn't stop zombies. They mostly chase sound without hesitation.
I guess the best cure for zombies is to make a lot of noise in the center of the Pacific.
I've got to stop reading these posts at dinner time.....
Basic survivalism, you should have atleast three days supply of fresh water, and a person needs a bare minimum of a gallon per day for drinking and sanitation. Double that figure for a warm climate (like say, Georgia), and increase it further to account for physical activity (and kids may need even more water beyond that). That's a minimum of about 50 lbs. of water per person even if we only account for the climate (and ignore the fact that the group has both kids and members that are physically active):
Two gallons per day per person, at 8.3 lbs. per gallon, times three days and further multiply it by five (the number of people in a hypothetical Kenny's family + Lee and Clem group), they're looking at lugging around close to atleast 250 lbs. of water, and that's being unrealistically conservative. Even worse, you can realistically only split that near-250 lbs. among three people, and more realistically two for any hypothetical supply run; the kids literally can't carry their own water. So if the kids stay behind at the boat with adult supervision (e.g. Katjaa), that leaves Lee and Kenny trying to find and fetch 125 lbs. of fresh water each just for basic survival. Even with a vehicle that's stupidly demanding and time-consuming (since they still need to bring water to that vehicle, load it, etc.). That's just for water, not supplementary food, fuel, etc.
The lack of food at the inn can be attributed to the group's inexperience with hunting/trapping since we know there's wildlife in the area, and even in spite of that, if you can justify trying to forage for supplies in a densely populated coastal area in another state (where Kenny's boat is), there's no reason you couldn't justify trying to gank a crate or two of MRE's from the supply area of a nearby military base or what have you. Hell, as of Episode 2 we know there's farms in the area too... which isn't exactly surprising since nearly a third of the land in Georgia is farmland.
That's exactly the point though; most population centers are on the coast, i.e. where most people live. This is why if you're lost and you end up making the decision to affect self-rescue, you typically head towards a coastline - odds are you're going to run into people. In most survival situations, it's valid, if everybody's dead and trying to eat you? Not so much.
We know Kenny's family is from Ft. Lauderdale, so odds are that's where his boat is. It's within a major metropolitan area, hell, Miami's within 30 miles of it and the only places in the country that have higher population densities are in New York and California. It also means that quite a few people had a chance to gank that boat while Kenny was in Georgia when the shit hit the fan.
Pretty much any reasonably fortified position (particularly those away from the coastline) would be a better option than the boat, which was the point. This is why we build them, whether it's a proper bunker, a guy's basement, or even the motel ingame. As I pointed out above, we don't know if they have a boat, and realistically the odds would be very much against it; Kenny hasn't been within 500 miles of the thing for over three months, literally millions of people had better and easier access to that boat than he did. Incidentally, that's also a 500+ mile trip they need to make to reach where the boat is (or more realistically was) for really questionable gain.
I haven't seen him post anything offensive to anyone and I can agree with sentiment he quoted.
A slight boating hazard when they float or when they wash/walk up on shore on isolated islands.
Yet who are you?
someone whos posts aren't just slams. grow up and take the trash out, you know your mom has asked a couple times now...You can finish your Gossip Girl fanfic later;)
It certainly wouldn't kill them, since they're already dead. The real issue, though, isn't buoyancy so much as propulsion. Moving through water requires a lot muscle use, which is something we don't really see much of in zombies. They just kind of shamble forward. So if they were to walk into the water, regardless of whether they sink or float, there's nothing to keep them from being swept away by the current.
Which is something they have to do anyway. It's not like the motel still has running water. Which means any clean drinking water they have on hand was carried there.
Preexisting supplies (like MREs) won't last long without someone bringing in more stock on a regular basis. And most of what was there likely would have already been looted during the course of the first three months.
Food from farms might bolster your supplies for a time. The problem with that is that while agriculture is good for producing a great quantity of food on a more reliable basis, it doesn't exactly make for a diverse, self-sustaining ecosystem. It's also very labor intensive. So all of that farmland isn't going to last for long without people maintaining it.
Hunting could work as a long-term solution. But the lack of food isn't just a result of the group being inexperienced. Most metropolitan areas don't generally have a lot wildlife. So if you want to find enough to live on, you're going to have to leave Macon. And even then, you wouldn't want to just stay in one place. There's a reason why most hunter-gatherer societies tend to move around. They have to go where the food is. Stay in one place too long, and it gets harder to find decent food. Then you have to go farther and farther out each time you go looking.
Well, my point was that that population is concentrated in certain spots. Your post above made it sound like they would be evenly spread out along the whole length of the east coast, which wouldn't be the case. There would still be plenty of areas where someone who wanted to go ashore could do so without attracting much attention.
Yes. This is what I see as the biggest flaw in the boat plan. Once the panic and looting started, what would have stopped someone from just taking Kenny's boat? And even if it is still there, what condition is it in at this point? Is it even still seaworthy?
Ultimately, you're correct that the boat isn't a long-term solution. But in the short-term, it could provide a measure of security and mobility while they look for a place that is safe.
however in my 3rd I dont say much or take sides... im going to try to be my own leader.
Actually, it is implied the motel still has running water; Lily's whole "the place has everything we need except food" spiel. We don't see any containers laying about the place and we know the St. Johns farm has running water when Lee asks to go to the bathroom to wash up.
Thing is, supplies only tend to run out when people are eating them. Zombies don't eat MRE's, canned goods, etc. The fact remains that if you can justify running around a coastline trying to forage for supplies, you can justify trying to get them from anywhere... even places you know are "overrun" (e.g. the base where they found Mark), since all of these problems are going to be even more prevalent on the coast.
And the group is definitely inexperienced with hunting, we don't see any real sign that they tried to supplement active hunting with trapping, for example. Likewise, you're going to start seeing animal populations (e.g. rabbits) balloon within half a year or so too.
Again, making the trip to the boat doesn't solve any of these problems either. Ft. Lauderdale is in a major metropolitan area, and to a far greater extent than Macon; it's within 30 miles of the most densely populated city outside of California or New York.
Where? As I noted, most commercial fishing vessels don't typically carry smaller boats (aside from maybe an inflatable life raft) since it takes deck space away from things like fishing. The places you're likely going to dock to search for supplies are going to be places with low-lying fruit, i.e. places that haven been developed with things like proper ports and realistically have supplies to gank (hell, it's the whole reason settlers landed at Plymouth Rock, it was originally a native town with recently planted corn, cleared fields, a pre-built harbor, etc.).
And it doesn't change that you're still in the largest moving object in a densely populated region where you're far more likely to run into undead people.
Not really, it's like saying "Well, it could rain s'mores and bacon, and the zombies could be gone tomorrow"; that doesn't mean you make actionable "plans" (I use the term loosely) based on that assumption, especially not when it entails leaving guaranteed sources of fresh water and making 500 mile trips to places that are only going to have lower numbers of zombies than California or New York (and that's pretty much unavoidable, since that's where the boat is or was).
Correct. So zombies would be swept to sea, bloat up and rise to the surface and get washed up somewhere else. Those would probably be the grossest ones, close to the well zombie from the TV series.
It's implied that "the place has everything we need" because it's close to town. Meaning that they're making runs into Macon to keep their supplies stocked. There's no reason to think that there's still water running there, especially since we already saw the power go out three months before so there's nothing to keep the pumping stations operational. In this kind of scenario, utilities would pretty much be the first thing to go. No, we don't see a lot of water containers around the parking lot, but we also don't get to see the whole location. They could be storing their supplies inside the motel or in the RV.
As for the St. Johns... could have just been an oversight on Telltale's part. But we also saw that they had made a lot of their own improvements to the property, so it may be that they have their own water supply that they're using too.
No, but there are still a lot of survivors running around. And the first thing they're going to do is grab whatever food is left. Heck, we already saw in Episode 2, the first thing people did was head to the Save Lots. Without any way to resupply, that's not going to last very long.
The other thing is that you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. It's safe to assume that the most easily accessible food is going to be grabbed first. Once that's gone, you have to work a little bit harder to find more. And each time, it gets a little bit harder. Until eventually, there may still be some food left somewhere in the city, but it's not worth the time and effort it would take to go searching for it.
Well first of all, we're not really given any indication about any of their levels of experience with hunting one way or the other. I generally take that to mean the player can decide for his or her self whether their Lee is a hunter or not. It's a common enough sport that it wouldn't be unbelievable that Lee did some hunting before the zombie apocalypse. We don't see them trying to use traps, but that doesn't mean that they weren't. It's entirely possible that they tried that too and simply didn't catch anything. Because again, there's not much wildlife in a metropolitan area like Macon. And they're obviously competing with the walkers for what few animals there are.
Either way, that's not really the point. They could be the best hunters in the whole world. That's still not going to help them if they decide to stay in one spot where there's hardly anything to hunt. In order to be successful at hunting, you have to first go to where the food is. It only works as a survival strategy if your group maintains a certain level of mobility.
That may not be the case since, as we see at the beginning of Episode 2, the walkers are also eating animals like rabbits. That could keep the population pretty low.
But for the sake of argument, let's take them out of the picture and assume you're right. With the significantly reduced human population and lack of maintenance on the cities, the wildlife population would certainly bounce back. The thing is, metropolitan areas would be the absolute last places to rewild. You're starting off with an area that's practically dead. Just concrete and a few weeds. Some small animals may go through, but you're not going to get significant increases in the animal population until more plants start growing in that they can eat. That's going to take a while because concrete doesn't exactly make for very good growing conditions, and what soil there is has all kinds of nasty toxins and chemicals in it. Now the Earth is pretty darn resilient, so it would grow in eventually, and probably a lot faster than most people would think. But half a year seems awfully optimistic.
But again, just for the sake of argument, let's assume you're right. In half a year's time, Macon once again has a thriving ecosystem filled with all kinds of animal life. That still doesn't help our survivors much when they're thinking about how they're going to get food today. Six months is a long time to wait for a meal. And that timeframe would be an absolute best case scenario.
Um... anywhere along the entire east coast?
It would kind of depend on the boat, but I'm pretty sure they're actually required to carry lifeboats onboard. Granted, that doesn't necessarily mean that Kenny obeys the law. But it's safe to assume that it at least has something like an inflatable raft. And if they really needed one, they could always just take a smaller boat with them since they'd be going to the docks anyway.
That's assuming they need to land on a beach. There are also smaller ports they could head for that wouldn't be as heavily populated as, say, the docks in New York City. And, as I mentioned before, there's no reason to assume that the zombies will stay in the cities for long.
What does size matter if none of your enemies can reach you? Even assuming one of the walkers spots the boat from the shore, what's he going to do about it? Groan angrily at it? I'm shaking already.
Um... okay. That doesn't actually make any sense, but whatever.
or get caught in propellers or haul themselves aboard.
It's hard to say, because if you do back up Kenny then he is the ultimate good guy. He only seems like a jerk when you don't back him up. Lilly does seem to be a little more even tempered, and that is important in a team member.
The water situation is mentioned when they first settle at the place in Episode 1 (where it's explicitly said the motel has running water), and Lilly makes it a point to state when needed resources are offsite (e.g. her dad's pills at the pharmacy). We know the farm has running water, and none of the motel survivors are apparently wowed that the St. Johns don't need to lug damn near a quarter-ton of water around with them (the full group is 9 people prior to Ben's arrival, again, 50 lbs. per person for a three day supply, and even that's being unrealistically conservative). And of course, not everyone can carry their own water or participate; the kids definately can't, it's unlikely Larry left the motel all that often, etc.
Hell, they don't even have a functional vehicle that can conceivably haul that much around in a single go, plus passengers, and that's excluding any other supplies and ignores the fact we've only seen the group move on foot since settling at the inn. Nevermind hunting or building fences, they'd be spending all their time fetching water if they lacked a running supply onsite.
Even more damning, a lack of running water would mean they're fetching it from the wild (unless there's mysteriously still bottles of Arrowhead laying around, yet no food), e.g. nearby ponds, rivers, steams, etc. which means they'd have to boil it too, which would necessitate fire since the power's out (it's kinda rare for a motel room to have a stove) and we don't see a campfire outside.
Actually, as we learn from Andy the employees/bandits told people to gather there; we don't know how many actually did, and seriously, it's not like the bandits were known for being caring and sharing (hell, they shoot each other in the face).
We've seen a total of maybe two dozen people in the area, including Lee's group. That kinda puts a maximum on how much of the area's resources have actually been consumed.
That's true no matter where you go; standard figure for a disaster is that low-lying fruit is going to be gone within six months or so. To reiterate however, since this point hasn't been answered, the fact remains that if you can justify a 500-mile trip to one of the most densely populated regions in the country (which is in no way, shape, or form optional, since that's where the boat is) you can justify going pretty much anywhere to look for supplies, even places you know have been "overrun" like the St. Johns farm (which had a decent crop of corn), etc. since statistically those places are going to have far fewer zombies than you'd find trying to reach the boat.
Incorrect, Lee admits as much when chatting with Danny about the fact he knew how to handle the rifle Danny let him borrow; Lee credits Lilly as being the one that trained the group on how to use the weapons they had.
Hell, from the first zombie in Ep. 1 we can see that Lee's pretty much never really handled a firearm in his life considering he doesn't even brace the stock against his shoulder (not exactly surprising considering the guy was a civics professor)... and this is something that Lee just happens to pick up on during Ep. 2 while searching for the camp with Danny (i.e. after Lilly trained the group).
Appeal to ignorance on trapping too; It's never even implied they attempted it, and as the old saying goes in that regard "It's called trapping, not killing", you wouldn't throw in the towel after a failed attempt anyway. Again, pretty basic survivalism, you lay down multiple traps to maximize the chances of catching something.
1.) We saw one zombie eating one rabbit; and that rabbit could well have been dead beforehand. We didn't see the zombie actually catch the thing (considering they move more slowly than old people with walkers, not exactly surprising). Likewise, this isn't a plus in favor of the boat, since that problem will only increase on the coastline.
2.) We can see that the motel's right next to the woods, they're not exactly in the middle of downtown. Likewise, nearly a third of Georgia is farmland (hell, they're within walking distance of atleast one).
Even so, the entire Macon metropolitan area consisting of five counties has a population a little under a quarter million. By contrast, the population of the metropolitan area you need to go just to have a chance of fetching the boat? More than than 5 and a half million, a little over 20 times higher, and docks do actually tend to be built in highly developed areas.
3.) It's already been three months, and they found enough to supply them for that long when they found Mark, that leaves another three months. Simply put, pretty much any plan short of heading to Manhattan for Ice Cream is better than making that 500+ mile trip to Florida. And again, really basic survivalism, starvation takes weeks to kill you, dehydration will kill you in days. They can't take their water source with them on their 500+ mile trip.
Even leaving aside little things like the fact one area has farmland within walking distance, Which area is realistically going to suffer resource exhaustion first? The one that had a bit under a quarter million people living in it, or the one that had over five and a half million?
Which is still the most densely populated area of the country, i.e. where you're far more likely to run into zombie hordes that dwarf anything we've seen in the series thus far.
They're only "required" to carry an inflatable depending on where the vessel operates.
And again, the plan requires reaching the docks in one of the most populous regions in the country (and there's no reason to assume the zombies left), assumes the boats weren't ganked by the millions of people who had better access to them over the past few months, and there's also the fact Lee's shown zero indication he knows a thing about boating.
They can keep you from docking, and that's really all they need to do to kill you as the boat plan requires stupidly isolating yourself from even the most basic supplies after having just made a 500+ mile trip. All you're doing is basically putting a wall between yourself and the resources of the mainland. Over millenia of history, people fortified themselves on land and not sea for a reason, the same rationale holds true here. There's nowhere you can go that you're not realistically going to attract attention, and everytime you happen to find that you need to go somewhere else that's fuel you can't replace.
It makes as much sense as saying "well, it could provide...", what I suggested is only slightly less probable (and I covered why, which you coincidentally didn't include). You don't base plans on "could", it's drilled into your head in the military or even this little thing called "life" - you hope for the best, plan for the worse - not the other way around.
Heading to an area that statistically has over 20 times as many (now undead) people and hoping to get security out of the bargain is just as valid a strategy as hoping all your problems go away, likewise in hoping that a boat (which you can't refuel since it likely requires thousands of gallons) is somehow going to provide mobility.
Hey, I'm reading them. Going to the coast just has way too much risk. It's a moot point in my game though. I failed to "earn" a ride in Kenny's RV. But Lilly wants to stay at the motel and that has risk as well. What to do....
I'm still trying to figure out what happened to all the food. I know it's a game but that part bugs me about e2. I think as long as you have a can opener there is plenty of food to find just about everywhere. I mean, who's eating the food and even if looters took it on ZA +0 days, how far did they get before they got eaten themselves.
i would say it is lillys poor leadership that is the reason for no food, she had control of the food and didnt inform the others of how much they had until we start the game, and we find out we dont even have enough food for a few bites of food each, what kind of idiot would leave it until you had ran out of food before telling everyone we had ran out?,
with it only being 3 months into the apocalypse and most people dying early on there would be more food than they could eat for a year or so if they had actually looked for it, instead we stay in a near unfortified motel just so we can stay near a pharmacy, that lilly for some reason doesnt want to loot but instead use as a big medicine cabinet for her father.
Words of a sage, right here.
I agree 100 percent
i dont get why people blame kenny for running with his child from ZOMBIES!! but dont care that lee just stood there after saving duck
I still like him though. I want more than ever to get him back on my side.
For me, it isn't so much he ran away, it's that he didn't have the commen sense to just set Duck down out of reach of the zombies and help Lee. Instead he ran off and cowered with his son.
If he ever gets any oppurtunities to be redeemed, you let me know. I'll try giving him another chance. And yeah, "hard decisions" my ass..only leeching off of what Lee does for the group. In my game, anyway.
but what about Lee he wasn't even holding the most important thing in his life in his arms?