don't go mad and extend my "what is so hard about adding a few branches" to "expect a sandbox zombie apocalypse experience" it is you who is rationalising misleading advertisement, and as i said i like the walking dead game, but i would like a game where choices matter aswell
I wasn't saying you specifically, this has been discussed in several threads, and it's my general perception of what the majority of posts in those threads come to.
Maybe I'm rationalizing, maybe I'm not. I set out and believed what many thought about the tailored experience thing.
Once I started playing I had a moment where I was like "Ohhh ok, this is what they meant by tailored!"
Instead of being pissed and throwing a tantrum (again not necessarily talking about you), I accepted it for what it was (being as I realized I only paid $24.99 in a $59.99 a game world) and that allowed me to enjoy it.
Now if I paid $59.99 for this game with this experience, I'd probably be more on the pissed side (Is this where all the Mass Effect 3 hate comes from? Never played that series).
I've made the choice to understand what I'm getting for the money I paid.
Right, but most adventure games with larger flow charts (most likely) come with larger price tags.
Impossible? No, but you're going to have to reach deeper into your pockets to get it - especially to get it to the scope it seems most people would like it to be. I'm almost believing people honestly expect a sandbox zombie apocalypse experience for their $25.
If it doesn't come down to understanding your choices just change how Lee is reacted towards throughout the game, then it's got to be about understanding what you're getting for the price you paid.
Either way, to me, it matches what they've advertised.
I understand being annoyed at the unrealism of some of these posts, expecting it to be "Mass Effect 1 and 2" level.
See, Doug and Carley both made it to episode 3. TT demonstrated they could keep up with two characters for two episodes. What changed with Lilly vs Kenny? (Duck and Kat die no matter what, so they'd still be writing dialogue for both.) In a "pro-Lilly" playthrough, it makes no sense why you couldn't change the outcome of what happened. The way they off'd Lilly/Doug and Carley felt extremely out of place with how the game has gone so far and frankly, a bit lazy.
I understand being annoyed at the unrealism of some of these posts, expecting it to be "Mass Effect 1 and 2" level.
See, Doug and Carley both made it to episode 3. TT demonstrated they could keep up with two characters for two episodes. What changed with Lilly vs Kenny? (Duck and Kat die no matter what, so they'd still be writing dialogue for both.) In a "pro-Lilly" playthrough, it makes no sense why you couldn't change the outcome of what happened. The way they off'd Lilly/Doug and Carley felt extremely out of place with how the game has gone so far and frankly, a bit lazy.
That makes some sense, and I wouldn't object that I was shocked and felt that I wanted Carley (my play through) to stick around longer. Could be EXACTLY why they did what they did.
Honestly, Lilly could have shot Ben and there would still be some shock value to the situation with her flying off the handle.
Though there's been much less time invested with Ben than Doug or Carley, and it wouldn't have played with people's emotions the same way.
I wouldn't have been as pissed off as I was had she shot Ben, still shocked, but not mad.
It was half, maybe slightly less than halfway through the episode. I feel like it wasn't a last minute throw together and everything at that point played out as TellTale had wanted it to.
i would pay more as well, for a game where the choices have a real impact
Most people would, and I think Telltale alters the story based on the statistics they receive also. Otherwise the game would have no reason to not be completed beforehand.
When I think of it that way, it's another way you could consider the game being tailored to how people play. Just as a fan base, not individuals.
Makes sense and I'm not saying I'm right, just pointing it out as a possibility.
Example 3. I think is an over-dramatization of what we do have, I see it more as branching out and reconnecting in a diamond shape (thus far) from the point where you choose Carley/Doug to when they die.
You could argue that if they actually bothered to have some differences in between. But there aren't. They didn't even friggen bother to make different deaths for the bloody different People. To me it feels like they only changed the model between doug/carley. Everything stays the friggen same, even in between. Now if they made is so that carley gets shot in ep3 by Lilly, and Doug died a different way at a different point (maybe earlier or later) THEN I could agree on the diamon-branch. But the way they did it, was extremely lazy and so yes I indeed stick 100% to my drawing of graphic 3 and genuinely think that is what they fed to us.
Most people would, and I think Telltale alters the story based on the statistics they receive also. Otherwise the game would have no reason to not be completed beforehand.
When I think of it that way, it's another way you could consider the game being tailored to how people play. Just as a fan base, not individuals.
Makes sense and I'm not saying I'm right, just pointing it out as a possibility.
i cant imagine that fan feedback actually alters a game where the story would be planned from the start, and they still sell the game after it had been finished, so it doesn't count for the people that buy if later
You could argue that if they actually bothered to have some differences in between. But there aren't. They didn't even friggen bother to make different deaths for the bloody different People. To me it feels like they only changed the model between doug/carley. Everything stays the friggen same, even in between. Now if they made is so that carley gets shot in ep3 by Lilly, and Doug died a different way at a different point (maybe earlier or later) THEN I could agree on the diamon-branch. But the way they did it, was extremely lazy and so yes I indeed stick 100% to my drawing of graphic 3 and genuinely think that is what they fed to us.
For the most part, yes. The dialogue is different and some other differences, albeit minor.
(Gun holdup [Carley] vs Alarm system [Doug] also shooting Andy [Carley] vs blinding Andy with the laser pointer [Doug])
I believe there are a couple differences in 3 before their death as well, such as Doug talking about chalk (haven't played a Doug save to see that one yet) vs Carley suggesting telling people about your past.
I stand by the diamond diagram, and I can see your viewpoint on how you stand by your straight line diagram. Agree to disagree.
i cant imagine that fan feedback actually alters a game where the story would be planned from the start, and they still sell the game after it had been finished, so it doesn't count for the people that buy if later
I'm going to go back and re-watch some playing dead episodes in a little bit, to see if any of it confirms/disproves it.
From what I remember on the latest episode they made it sound like they were throwing ideas around in between episodes. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not so sure they explain when the process took place.
(Edit) After watching Playing Dead Ep. 1, they describe the game as a long form story, or an interactive TV show. On to Ep. 2
All of these people talking about the vast array of alternate storylines they could be getting in their adventure games and the incredible amount of control they could have over their storylines in any other game...
Say what?
Adventure games are notorious for being incredibly linear interactive stories. TWD is kind of a unique gem in this genre only matched by Blade Runner...which came out fifteen years ago.
RPGs maybe, and not even the majority of RPGs but a select few give you different dialogues and situations based on what you do.
I'm going to go back and re-watch some playing dead episodes in a little bit, to see if any of it confirms/disproves it.
From what I remember on the latest episode they made it sound like they were throwing ideas around in between episodes. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not so sure they explain when the process took place.
i would say any fan feedback would be to help them make season 2
i would say any fan feedback would be to help them make season 2
Of course, any good company would take feedback into consideration.
Most of people's complaints about things not really mattering can be answered in Episode 2 of Playing Dead.
They basically describe it, in more detail, as I have earlier. The dialogue, how people feel about you, etc is tailored by what you say.
Small changes like when you choose to seek help night/day in episode 1.
Their "very large" choices are deciding if someone lives/dies (Doug/Carley)
However, this does not suggest you decide when the survivor then dies later on.
(Edit)
Just to be specific
Release Date: April 24, 2012 (Episode 1)
Published on Mar 6, 2012 by TelltaleGames (Playing Dead Episode 2)
So the information was out there before the first episode came out.
Of course, any good company would take feedback into consideration.
Most of people's complaints about things not really mattering can be answered in Episode 2 of Playing Dead.
They basically describe it, in more detail, as I have earlier. The dialogue, how people feel about you, etc is tailored by what you say.
Small changes like when you choose to seek help night/day in episode 1.
Their "very large" choices are deciding if someone lives/dies (Doug/Carley)
However, this does not suggest you decide when the survivor then dies later on.
(Edit)
Just to be specific
Release Date: April 24, 2012 (Episode 1)
Published on Mar 6, 2012 by TelltaleGames (Playing Dead Episode 2)
So the information was out there before the first episode came out.
I wouldn't have even minded if Doug/Carley died. Each episode has had a "large choice". (Episode 1: Doug or Carley? Episode 2: Kill or try to save Larry?)
Episode 3 had no large choice. I feel like the large choice could have, logically, been going with Lilly or staying with Kenny. This way episode 2's "large choice" mattered as well. TT kept up with two different characters for two episodes, how would keeping up with an alternate path with Lilly be different?
Lilly kicking us out when there's been this absolutely huge build up with choosing Kenny or Lilly's side for both episodes, especially 2, is what makes me flip a table.
I wouldn't have even minded if Doug/Carley died. Each episode has had a "large choice". (Episode 1: Doug or Carley? Episode 2: Kill or try to save Larry?)
Episode 3 had no large choice. I feel like the large choice could have, logically, been going with Lilly or staying with Kenny. This way episode 2's "large choice" mattered as well. TT kept up with two different characters for two episodes, how would keeping up with an alternate path with Lilly be different?
Lilly kicking us out when there's been this absolutely huge build up with choosing Kenny or Lilly's side for both episodes, especially 2, is what makes me flip a table.
I didn't read/hear anything anywhere about there being a major choice during every episode, only that the choices that are presented range on a scale from small or innocuous (think that's the word they used) to very large.
(Edit) None of which would change the direction of the story, such as taking off with Lilly would have.
I would've been the first person to run off to Woodbury with Lilly if the game allowed me to. Woodbury is where the fun stuff happening. Besides I could actually meet Rick at some point :P
I take it that they really liked Lilly's character. If we were allowed to follow her to Woodbury then the novel where she's the main protagonist would have to include Lee and Clem as well. Including Lee into any other sort of media would be the biggest mistake ever. He's too much player dependent to have a solid canon story. So obviously we can't go with Lilly cause they have bigger plans for her.
You think it's inconsistent that she leaves Lee behind. Well think of it that way - she realizes she has become too extreme and despite the fact that Lee agrees to run with her, she knows Lee won't forgive her easily. It's difficult, but she has to follow the path of redemption on her own. She can't risk having Lee and Clem with her. It's too dangerous!
So, she leaves you behind, knowing that you will take good care of Clem and despite her taking the van, she knows you will be okay.
Farewell, Lilly
As regards to Kenny vs Lilly conflict, the problem is that you're looking at it just for the reward. You know, you've been good to Lilly, so you have to receive something - get laid, run away with her or get to make the decisions.
Don't look it that way. You should've helped Larry because it was the right thing to do for the group and for Lilly, not because you will get on her good side and get something out of that.
It's the same with Kenny. You should support him because you believe in his judgement and the way he does things not because you will eventually get rewarded.
Make choices because they feel right, not because you will take something out of it.
Life doesn't always reward you for your choices. You were good to Carley, you wanted to have something with her... well good, but sometimes life doesn't go the way you wait it.
Although this episode seems to have lesser important choices, in fact it doesn't. The choice to kill duck yourself or let Kenny do it is a tough one. Same goes for the girl at the beginning. Situations like those define who you really are.
Do not worry folks, I'm sure there are plenty of cool stuff awaiting for at in episode 4. My guess is that Telltale needed a more steady storyline this episode so they can bring it all on us in the ones to come.
Agree with Yazi about the cool stuff coming in Episode 4. If we think about it, stuff doesn't hit the fan until we're nearing the endgame sequences, which would be Episode 5 in this case. We just got through Episode 3, and I think it's only started to heat up. If Lilly had shot Ben, or Katjaa, or even Kenny, not many people would have felt the same as her shooting Doug or Carley. It was shocking, and angering, because the person that she killed was pretty much the one character we directly saved from death. No one elses death (aside from Clem) could have done that to us. And Lilly had to leave anyway to go to Woodbury, and again like Yami said, it would really be hard to explain those two sticking together through the trip to Woodbury and everything that happened there in the comics.
The game's choices are more about what kind of person that we are, or would be, in this situation. I sided with Kenny (mostly) because I thought he made good points about what we needed to do. I certainly didn't want to stay at the motel, since Lee stated the bandits had been taking shots at us for about a week. I thought Kenny was right, and that staying was certain ceath. Lilly makes good points too, that there are still supplies left in Macon and that leaving could end with everyone starving.
I can't wait for Episode 4, and the more streamlined story will give TellTale more time to make everything else in the final two episodes really amazing. As the saying goes: "It's the journey that matters, not the destination."
People don't seem to understand that with the good quality of the previous episodes, they also raised the quality people expect for the next episode.
Why was duke nukem forever "bad"? it wasn't that bad, it was mediocre. But it was delayed and that made people become more excited for it, so much so that the expectations couldn't possibly be matched. TWD episode 3 isn't a terrible episode (well, it's also not really good..) , it just should be way better considering the quality of the previous episodes.
Since telltale delayed the episodes (the first season of TWD game should be over by now if they kept to a monthly release schedule), people have bigger expectations for it.
But the problem is here people are praising them for their "great storyline" when it's really just gotten a lot worse now in episode 3 and it is clearly showing to some people.
Either way, to me, it matches what they've advertised.
You could say it matches... in the loosest sense of the word possible.
It's not quite false advertising, but it's not something that they should be going around making one of the main selling points of the game, if they (the developers) can't live up to that.
in my opinion, the choices you could make in RE 3 were better than in TWD. At least every way you chose to do something differently when you were given the option to was shown to be very different from the other choice.
But RE3 wasn't even advertising the choices as one of the main selling points.
And i've already mentioned this on most of my other posts, but the emotion is also missing. Nobody cares a few minutes after any of the characters are dead.
And there's also some stuff that makes absolutely no sense in the story too. Most of them seem to have already been mentioned, such as how you can't reason with Lilly. And even if she does just kill carley just out of the moment, why doesn't she go ahead and shoot ben too since she was accusing him? why does she give you the option to go with her on the RV and yet still push you off anyway? why does nobody say anything about duck being bitten or try to stop katjaa and kenny from bringing duck with the group? why do they have to stop the train to dispose of duck? why doesn't anybody try to go with lee and clem at the railroad store thing when they're stopped by the oil truck?
And at the very start, why did it take them over 3 months to go back and raid the drug store? why does kenny go with lee when he's been shot, when there's loads of other people at the camp such as carley? or for that matter, why only 2 people? it's also inconsistant with the other episodes.. in episode 2 they're already resorting to catching live animals for food, but apparently they haven't even raided all of the stores before they do so considering that they didn't even raid the drug store.
And if anything, it should have been kenny who killed himself. Katjaa seems much stronger about the situation with duck than kenny did, and yet it was katjaa who killed herself.
The fact that you can't possibly convince Lily (as her best friend) to chill the f¤#k out outside the RV kind of turned me off a little bit. But it's better for the current story that way. It feels way more hopeless to have a useless group of Lee, Kenny, Clem, Ben and 3 other nutjobs that you find on the road. And I think that's exactly what the writers were going for. Absolute FUBAR.
People don't seem to understand that with the good quality of the previous episodes, they also raised the quality people expect for the next episode.
Why was duke nukem forever "bad"? it wasn't that bad, it was mediocre. But it was delayed and that made people become more excited for it, so much so that the expectations couldn't possibly be matched. TWD episode 3 isn't a terrible episode (well, it's also not really good..) , it just should be way better considering the quality of the previous episodes.
Since telltale delayed the episodes (the first season of TWD game should be over by now if they kept to a monthly release schedule), people have bigger expectations for it.
But the problem is here people are praising them for their "great storyline" when it's really just gotten a lot worse now in episode 3 and it is clearly showing to some people.
You could say it matches... in the loosest sense of the word possible.
It's not quite false advertising, but it's not something that they should be going around making one of the main selling points of the game, if they (the developers) can't live up to that.
in my opinion, the choices you could make in RE 3 were better than in TWD. At least every way you chose to do something differently when you were given the option to was shown to be very different from the other choice.
But RE3 wasn't even advertising the choices as one of the main selling points.
And i've already mentioned this on most of my other posts, but the emotion is also missing. Nobody cares a few minutes after any of the characters are dead.
And there's also some stuff that makes absolutely no sense in the story too. Most of them seem to have already been mentioned, such as how you can't reason with Lilly. And even if she does just kill carley just out of the moment, why doesn't she go ahead and shoot ben too since she was accusing him? why does she give you the option to go with her on the RV and yet still push you off anyway? why does nobody say anything about duck being bitten or try to stop katjaa and kenny from bringing duck with the group? why do they have to stop the train to dispose of duck? why doesn't anybody try to go with lee and clem at the railroad store thing when they're stopped by the oil truck?
And at the very start, why did it take them over 3 months to go back and raid the drug store? why does kenny go with lee when he's been shot, when there's loads of other people at the camp such as carley? or for that matter, why only 2 people? it's also inconsistant with the other episodes.. in episode 2 they're already resorting to catching live animals for food, but apparently they haven't even raided all of the stores before they do so considering that they didn't even raid the drug store.
And if anything, it should have been kenny who killed himself. Katjaa seems much stronger about the situation with duck than kenny did, and yet it was katjaa who killed herself.
I said this a few posts ago, but Playing Dead episode 2 backs up what I've said about how the game is "tailored".
This video came out more than a month before the first episode of the game was released.
Playing dead episode 1 also compares the game to a long form story or an interactive tv series.
I said this a few posts ago, but Playing Dead episode 2 backs up what I've said about how the game is "tailored".
This video came out more than a month before the first episode of the game was released.
Playing dead episode 1 also compares the game to a long form story or an interactive tv series.
They advertised the game for what it was. Sorry.
Playing dead was not nearly as well advertised as all the advertisements that had promoted the idea that "choice matters" in some form of the other.
And even if she does just kill carley just out of the moment, why doesn't she go ahead and shoot ben too since she was accusing him? why does she give you the option to go with her on the RV and yet still push you off anyway? why does nobody say anything about duck being bitten or try to stop katjaa and kenny from bringing duck with the group? why do they have to stop the train to dispose of duck? why doesn't anybody try to go with lee and clem at the railroad store thing when they're stopped by the oil truck?
And at the very start, why did it take them over 3 months to go back and raid the drug store? why does kenny go with lee when he's been shot, when there's loads of other people at the camp such as carley? or for that matter, why only 2 people? it's also inconsistant with the other episodes.. in episode 2 they're already resorting to catching live animals for food, but apparently they haven't even raided all of the stores before they do so considering that they didn't even raid the drug store.
And if anything, it should have been kenny who killed himself. Katjaa seems much stronger about the situation with duck than kenny did, and yet it was katjaa who killed herself.
1.-Depending on who survives ep1, she either tries to shoot ben or she kills carly out of rage, either way she is shocked.
2.-No comment.
3.-The only ones who knew back in the rv were lee and clem. Chuck was new, and ben was just one guy so their opinion din't really mattered.
4.-Because Katjaa wanted a more...honorable death than throwing duck out of the train.
5.-No comment.
6.-According to Kenny, they already raided the drug store more than once.
7.-As you can see in ep2, the wound wasn't that bad.
8.- They needed people in the motel to guard it against bandits or walkers.Also, 2 people attracts less attention.
1. She didn't realize what she was doing until she did it. So after killing Carley, she freaked out. Same with killing Doug.
2. Don't know, didn't play that part.
3. Because the people who always fight over people being bitten or who to sacrifice are Larry, Lee, Kenny, Carley, and Lilly.
4. Because Duck's a ten-year-old boy.
5. Lee wandered off by himself. Clem snuck off after him. No one even noticed they were gone except for Christa, who chased them down and gave them shit about it.
6. Closer to six months, I believe. It was 3 months at the beginning of Episode 2 and Chuck mentions being alone for six months. Anyway, they said early on that they've been regularly making trips to the pharmacy and they were running out of supplies. They just never made a scene about it.
7. It's likely been 8-12 weeks since he was shot (see above), so he probably figured he was close to healing up.
8. Someone had to defend the camp from all of those bandit attacks.
9. You can't feed yourself on antibiotics and pain killers.
10. Katjaa had to be strong enough to support both Kenny and Duck. Kenny got to vent and air his feelings and scream and get angry. Notice how he wouldn't even look at his dying son most of the time and spent all of his time in the train cab? Notice how he sent Ben off to watch his family? Katjaa took on all of their emotional burdens and it broke her down. Kenny didn't have to be strong, Katjaa was strong for the both of them. And then she couldn't take it anymore.
You could say it matches... in the loosest sense of the word possible.
It's not quite false advertising, but it's not something that they should be going around making one of the main selling points of the game, if they (the developers) can't live up to that.
in my opinion, the choices you could make in RE 3 were better than in TWD. At least every way you chose to do something differently when you were given the option to was shown to be very different from the other choice.
But RE3 wasn't even advertising the choices as one of the main selling points.
And i've already mentioned this on most of my other posts, but the emotion is also missing. Nobody cares a few minutes after any of the characters are dead.
And there's also some stuff that makes absolutely no sense in the story too. Most of them seem to have already been mentioned, such as how you can't reason with Lilly. And even if she does just kill carley just out of the moment, why doesn't she go ahead and shoot ben too since she was accusing him? why does she give you the option to go with her on the RV and yet still push you off anyway? why does nobody say anything about duck being bitten or try to stop katjaa and kenny from bringing duck with the group? why do they have to stop the train to dispose of duck? why doesn't anybody try to go with lee and clem at the railroad store thing when they're stopped by the oil truck?
And at the very start, why did it take them over 3 months to go back and raid the drug store? why does kenny go with lee when he's been shot, when there's loads of other people at the camp such as carley? or for that matter, why only 2 people? it's also inconsistant with the other episodes.. in episode 2 they're already resorting to catching live animals for food, but apparently they haven't even raided all of the stores before they do so considering that they didn't even raid the drug store.
And if anything, it should have been kenny who killed himself. Katjaa seems much stronger about the situation with duck than kenny did, and yet it was katjaa who killed herself.
I've got to disagree. There were several character defining decisions in this episode that tell you what kind of person Lee is. We're making important decisions while inside the greater framework of the narrative created by TTG. It's not in the "loosest sense" at all to me.
As for the emotion comment, it's still very much there. People are cracking and it absolutely shows this episode. Lilly completely loses it due to the events in the past episodes. Katjaa is a wreck and in complete despair. So much so that she takes her own life. Kenny is pretty much broken and the only thing that he can do is hold on to his "plan" of getting to the coast. Without that he'd be gone. Ben is wracked with guilt over what happened outside the RV, it really shows on the train. People don't always break down and sob to show emotion, dude. It's pretty obvious most are in shock.
As for the parts of the story that you say make no sense; you might want to replay and pay more attention I guess.
1) You shouldn't always be able to reason with people. Especially those under a great deal of stress. Lee isn't a deity. After she kills Doug/Carley, she seemed to me to have a moment of realization of what she'd just done. Lee grabbing her wrist and restraining her kind of prevented her from taking another shot, no?
2) She probably gives you the option to go with her because she knows you won't leave without Clem and it's an easy way to get you off the RV. I honestly think she doesn't want to face anyone left in the group.
3) Kenny and Katjaa tell you about Duck being bitten. At least they do if you've been honest with them. Duck is dying but he's still got time. Like I said earlier, all of them are in shock. They've just lost all stability (what little they had) and watched their friend get killed by another member of the group (they might not have liked Lilly, but they still trusted her).
4) No one goes with Lee and Clem because most are doing something else. Kenny is teaching Omid how to operate the train. Chuck or Christie could have but they're doing their own thing I guess. I have no idea how the two of them looking around a bit make no sense to you though.
5) At the start of the game, it's made pretty obvious that they've made raiding trips into Macon SEVERAL times. Did you even pay attention here? It's also made very clear that they've essentially cleaned the pharmacy out and this will be their last trip because there's almost nothing left. They make comments about coming into town several times during this segment and after they get back to the inn.
6) It's pretty much the norm in "The Walking Dead" (it's pretty much common sense too) that small groups are much easier to travel around to seek supplies than large and noisy groups of people. It's also been 3 months since Kenny was shot. Not to mention they need people to defend the Inn and the children.
In the end, most of the inconsistencies you mention are due to your lack of attention to the story. I can understand that you didn't like this episode, but at least be fair in your assessment.
duck?? kill him or force kenny to do it ? i'd say thats a big choice, kenny has nothing left, other than 'boozing' and lee's friendship.. depsite being a bit pro larry..
i just think the choices may not seem to matter but underneath the surface they do,
how does anyone know ttg aren't saving them for ep5 ?
duck?? kill him or force kenny to do it ? i'd say thats a big choice, kenny has nothing left, other than 'boozing' and lee's friendship.. depsite being a bit pro larry..
i just think the choices may not seem to matter but underneath the surface they do,
how does anyone know ttg aren't saving them for ep5 ?
you dont have to force him to do it, i sort of see it as making him 100% sure it is what should be done, instead of you doing it for him
Still talks about dialogue choices that affect what people think about you and some choices may not be felt until episodes later down the line. Also, this video came out around the time the first episode was released, much later than playing dead episode 2.
The information was there, I remember watching them (Playing Dead) before the game came out...then I forgot about them and game until after Episode 2 was out and saw a review for it on IGN.
Finding this stuff was as simple as going to thewalkingdeadgame.com and watching the videos. If everyone wanted to get their information through 3rd party sources and those sources didn't provide it, so be it, but the information was available.
I agree with the op. It's just frustrating that everything leads to the same outcome. I so didn't care if duck is going to die and who will shoot him after what happened with Carley and Lilly because I really don't want from a game to show me what kind of character I am and who I am. I want from a game to show me that something can change at the end when I act the way I feel things should be done. I know what kind of person I am, I don't need a game for that. My motivation for replaying the first two episodes is so low when I know that at the end everything will happen just the way the writers of the story line want it to be.
Still talks about dialogue choices that affect what people think about you and some choices may not be felt until episodes later down the line. Also, this video came out around the time the first episode was released, much later than playing dead episode 2.
The information was there, I remember watching them (Playing Dead) before the game came out...then I forgot about them and game until after Episode 2 was out and saw a review for it on IGN.
Finding this stuff was as simple as going to thewalkingdeadgame.com and watching the videos. If everyone wanted to get their information through 3rd party sources and those sources didn't provide it, so be it, but the information was available.
Eh, even in the video they say the choices will affect peoples' opinions of you as Lee. Killing the St. John brothers at the farm. Either way, Clementine seems about the same in the 3rd episode regardless of the choice you make there. The same goes for stealing the food from the car. An offhand comment and you never hear it again. I'm not saying that it won't affect the story down the line in a significant way, but so far it hasn't, which is not what they so frequently advertised. I'm not saying everyone shouldn't have looked into it further, but I think it is at least partially TT's fault for not making it clear.
To be fair, we don't all know what everyone has said differently in the game. When I randomly generated an Episode 3 game because my save files were broken, the ENTIRE opening sequence and converesation was different than when I imported my save files based on my choices.
And that was just the first five minutes of the game.
Eh, even in the video they say the choices will affect peoples' opinions of you as Lee. Killing the St. John brothers at the farm. Either way, Clementine seems about the same in the 3rd episode regardless of the choice you make there. The same goes for stealing the food from the car. An offhand comment and you never hear it again. I'm not saying that it won't affect the story down the line in a significant way, but so far it hasn't, which is not what they so frequently advertised. I'm not saying everyone shouldn't have looked into it further, but I think it is at least partially TT's fault for not making it clear.
Ok, you can look at it that way, but if Lilly is pissed at me at the end of Episode 2, she mentions how she could have killed me in the RV before she steals it in episode 3.
Where as, if I was friendly with her, she still takes off but does so cordially by asking you to go get Clem to bait you into leaving the RV.
So her attitude towards me was affected by prior decisions.
You can say "yeah but you're still in the same place because you can't actually go with lilly" (I've heard other people say that)... with that comes an entirely different story arc, in essence the game would then be split into 2 separate games and that's just not feasible.
When dealing with the St John brothers, I had the opportunity to speak with Clem after and explain why I did what I did. I got something on screen that told me Clem understood.
I also believe there is dialogue explaining killing in episode 3 when you admit to Clem you've killed people (Carley play through) if I'm not mistaken, I'd have to play through 3 again to confirm.
The differences and the effects are there, if you look for them.
Ok, you can look at it that way, but if Lilly is pissed at me at the end of Episode 2, she mentions how she could have killed me in the RV before she steals it in episode 3.
Where as, if I was friendly with her, she still takes off but does so cordially by asking you to go get Clem to bait you into leaving the RV.
So her attitude towards me was affected by prior decisions.
You can say "yeah but you're still in the same place because you can't actually go with lilly" (I've heard other people say that)... with that comes an entirely different story arc, in essence the game would then be split into 2 separate games and that's just not feasible.
When dealing with the St John brothers, I had the opportunity to speak with Clem after and explain why I did what I did. I got something on screen that told me Clem understood.
I also believe there is dialogue explaining killing in episode 3 when you admit to Clem you've killed people (Carley play through) if I'm not mistaken, I'd have to play through 3 again to confirm.
The differences and the effects are there, if you look for them.
Why wouldn't she try to kill you when you're in the RV and have your back turned (particularly if you killed her father)? Obviously she can't kill Lee, but if he fights her off in a quicktime sequence, the story ends the same way. It just feels like laziness to me. Either way she screws you over and takes the RV. I don't see slight conversation differences that last for a short amount of time as "making choices matter" as TT has so frequently proclaimed. If their intention was to only use small conversational differences as the things that were affected by choices, they should have made that a hell of a lot more clear when advertising it. Even when Clementine sees you murder both St. John brothers, she is horrified for all of about 3 minutes, and then she seems to not care. I can respect your view on the topic, but I just feel differently.
Comments
I wasn't saying you specifically, this has been discussed in several threads, and it's my general perception of what the majority of posts in those threads come to.
Maybe I'm rationalizing, maybe I'm not. I set out and believed what many thought about the tailored experience thing.
Once I started playing I had a moment where I was like "Ohhh ok, this is what they meant by tailored!"
Instead of being pissed and throwing a tantrum (again not necessarily talking about you), I accepted it for what it was (being as I realized I only paid $24.99 in a $59.99 a game world) and that allowed me to enjoy it.
Now if I paid $59.99 for this game with this experience, I'd probably be more on the pissed side (Is this where all the Mass Effect 3 hate comes from? Never played that series).
I've made the choice to understand what I'm getting for the money I paid.
I understand being annoyed at the unrealism of some of these posts, expecting it to be "Mass Effect 1 and 2" level.
See, Doug and Carley both made it to episode 3. TT demonstrated they could keep up with two characters for two episodes. What changed with Lilly vs Kenny? (Duck and Kat die no matter what, so they'd still be writing dialogue for both.) In a "pro-Lilly" playthrough, it makes no sense why you couldn't change the outcome of what happened. The way they off'd Lilly/Doug and Carley felt extremely out of place with how the game has gone so far and frankly, a bit lazy.
That makes some sense, and I wouldn't object that I was shocked and felt that I wanted Carley (my play through) to stick around longer. Could be EXACTLY why they did what they did.
Honestly, Lilly could have shot Ben and there would still be some shock value to the situation with her flying off the handle.
Though there's been much less time invested with Ben than Doug or Carley, and it wouldn't have played with people's emotions the same way.
I wouldn't have been as pissed off as I was had she shot Ben, still shocked, but not mad.
It was half, maybe slightly less than halfway through the episode. I feel like it wasn't a last minute throw together and everything at that point played out as TellTale had wanted it to.
Most people would, and I think Telltale alters the story based on the statistics they receive also. Otherwise the game would have no reason to not be completed beforehand.
When I think of it that way, it's another way you could consider the game being tailored to how people play. Just as a fan base, not individuals.
Makes sense and I'm not saying I'm right, just pointing it out as a possibility.
You could argue that if they actually bothered to have some differences in between. But there aren't. They didn't even friggen bother to make different deaths for the bloody different People. To me it feels like they only changed the model between doug/carley. Everything stays the friggen same, even in between. Now if they made is so that carley gets shot in ep3 by Lilly, and Doug died a different way at a different point (maybe earlier or later) THEN I could agree on the diamon-branch. But the way they did it, was extremely lazy and so yes I indeed stick 100% to my drawing of graphic 3 and genuinely think that is what they fed to us.
i cant imagine that fan feedback actually alters a game where the story would be planned from the start, and they still sell the game after it had been finished, so it doesn't count for the people that buy if later
For the most part, yes. The dialogue is different and some other differences, albeit minor.
(Gun holdup [Carley] vs Alarm system [Doug] also shooting Andy [Carley] vs blinding Andy with the laser pointer [Doug])
I believe there are a couple differences in 3 before their death as well, such as Doug talking about chalk (haven't played a Doug save to see that one yet) vs Carley suggesting telling people about your past.
I stand by the diamond diagram, and I can see your viewpoint on how you stand by your straight line diagram. Agree to disagree.
I'm going to go back and re-watch some playing dead episodes in a little bit, to see if any of it confirms/disproves it.
From what I remember on the latest episode they made it sound like they were throwing ideas around in between episodes. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not so sure they explain when the process took place.
(Edit) After watching Playing Dead Ep. 1, they describe the game as a long form story, or an interactive TV show. On to Ep. 2
Say what?
Adventure games are notorious for being incredibly linear interactive stories. TWD is kind of a unique gem in this genre only matched by Blade Runner...which came out fifteen years ago.
RPGs maybe, and not even the majority of RPGs but a select few give you different dialogues and situations based on what you do.
i would say any fan feedback would be to help them make season 2
Of course, any good company would take feedback into consideration.
Most of people's complaints about things not really mattering can be answered in Episode 2 of Playing Dead.
They basically describe it, in more detail, as I have earlier. The dialogue, how people feel about you, etc is tailored by what you say.
Small changes like when you choose to seek help night/day in episode 1.
Their "very large" choices are deciding if someone lives/dies (Doug/Carley)
However, this does not suggest you decide when the survivor then dies later on.
(Edit)
Just to be specific
Release Date: April 24, 2012 (Episode 1)
Published on Mar 6, 2012 by TelltaleGames (Playing Dead Episode 2)
So the information was out there before the first episode came out.
I wouldn't have even minded if Doug/Carley died. Each episode has had a "large choice". (Episode 1: Doug or Carley? Episode 2: Kill or try to save Larry?)
Episode 3 had no large choice. I feel like the large choice could have, logically, been going with Lilly or staying with Kenny. This way episode 2's "large choice" mattered as well. TT kept up with two different characters for two episodes, how would keeping up with an alternate path with Lilly be different?
Lilly kicking us out when there's been this absolutely huge build up with choosing Kenny or Lilly's side for both episodes, especially 2, is what makes me flip a table.
I didn't read/hear anything anywhere about there being a major choice during every episode, only that the choices that are presented range on a scale from small or innocuous (think that's the word they used) to very large.
(Edit) None of which would change the direction of the story, such as taking off with Lilly would have.
I take it that they really liked Lilly's character. If we were allowed to follow her to Woodbury then the novel where she's the main protagonist would have to include Lee and Clem as well. Including Lee into any other sort of media would be the biggest mistake ever. He's too much player dependent to have a solid canon story. So obviously we can't go with Lilly cause they have bigger plans for her.
You think it's inconsistent that she leaves Lee behind. Well think of it that way - she realizes she has become too extreme and despite the fact that Lee agrees to run with her, she knows Lee won't forgive her easily. It's difficult, but she has to follow the path of redemption on her own. She can't risk having Lee and Clem with her. It's too dangerous!
So, she leaves you behind, knowing that you will take good care of Clem and despite her taking the van, she knows you will be okay.
Farewell, Lilly
As regards to Kenny vs Lilly conflict, the problem is that you're looking at it just for the reward. You know, you've been good to Lilly, so you have to receive something - get laid, run away with her or get to make the decisions.
Don't look it that way. You should've helped Larry because it was the right thing to do for the group and for Lilly, not because you will get on her good side and get something out of that.
It's the same with Kenny. You should support him because you believe in his judgement and the way he does things not because you will eventually get rewarded.
Make choices because they feel right, not because you will take something out of it.
Life doesn't always reward you for your choices. You were good to Carley, you wanted to have something with her... well good, but sometimes life doesn't go the way you wait it.
Although this episode seems to have lesser important choices, in fact it doesn't. The choice to kill duck yourself or let Kenny do it is a tough one. Same goes for the girl at the beginning. Situations like those define who you really are.
Do not worry folks, I'm sure there are plenty of cool stuff awaiting for at in episode 4. My guess is that Telltale needed a more steady storyline this episode so they can bring it all on us in the ones to come.
The game's choices are more about what kind of person that we are, or would be, in this situation. I sided with Kenny (mostly) because I thought he made good points about what we needed to do. I certainly didn't want to stay at the motel, since Lee stated the bandits had been taking shots at us for about a week. I thought Kenny was right, and that staying was certain ceath. Lilly makes good points too, that there are still supplies left in Macon and that leaving could end with everyone starving.
I can't wait for Episode 4, and the more streamlined story will give TellTale more time to make everything else in the final two episodes really amazing. As the saying goes: "It's the journey that matters, not the destination."
Rock114, you summed it up pretty nicely
People don't seem to understand that with the good quality of the previous episodes, they also raised the quality people expect for the next episode.
Why was duke nukem forever "bad"? it wasn't that bad, it was mediocre. But it was delayed and that made people become more excited for it, so much so that the expectations couldn't possibly be matched. TWD episode 3 isn't a terrible episode (well, it's also not really good..) , it just should be way better considering the quality of the previous episodes.
Since telltale delayed the episodes (the first season of TWD game should be over by now if they kept to a monthly release schedule), people have bigger expectations for it.
But the problem is here people are praising them for their "great storyline" when it's really just gotten a lot worse now in episode 3 and it is clearly showing to some people.
You could say it matches... in the loosest sense of the word possible.
It's not quite false advertising, but it's not something that they should be going around making one of the main selling points of the game, if they (the developers) can't live up to that.
in my opinion, the choices you could make in RE 3 were better than in TWD. At least every way you chose to do something differently when you were given the option to was shown to be very different from the other choice.
But RE3 wasn't even advertising the choices as one of the main selling points.
And i've already mentioned this on most of my other posts, but the emotion is also missing. Nobody cares a few minutes after any of the characters are dead.
And there's also some stuff that makes absolutely no sense in the story too. Most of them seem to have already been mentioned, such as how you can't reason with Lilly. And even if she does just kill carley just out of the moment, why doesn't she go ahead and shoot ben too since she was accusing him? why does she give you the option to go with her on the RV and yet still push you off anyway? why does nobody say anything about duck being bitten or try to stop katjaa and kenny from bringing duck with the group? why do they have to stop the train to dispose of duck? why doesn't anybody try to go with lee and clem at the railroad store thing when they're stopped by the oil truck?
And at the very start, why did it take them over 3 months to go back and raid the drug store? why does kenny go with lee when he's been shot, when there's loads of other people at the camp such as carley? or for that matter, why only 2 people? it's also inconsistant with the other episodes.. in episode 2 they're already resorting to catching live animals for food, but apparently they haven't even raided all of the stores before they do so considering that they didn't even raid the drug store.
And if anything, it should have been kenny who killed himself. Katjaa seems much stronger about the situation with duck than kenny did, and yet it was katjaa who killed herself.
I said this a few posts ago, but Playing Dead episode 2 backs up what I've said about how the game is "tailored".
This video came out more than a month before the first episode of the game was released.
Playing dead episode 1 also compares the game to a long form story or an interactive tv series.
They advertised the game for what it was. Sorry.
Playing dead was not nearly as well advertised as all the advertisements that had promoted the idea that "choice matters" in some form of the other.
1.-Depending on who survives ep1, she either tries to shoot ben or she kills carly out of rage, either way she is shocked.
2.-No comment.
3.-The only ones who knew back in the rv were lee and clem. Chuck was new, and ben was just one guy so their opinion din't really mattered.
4.-Because Katjaa wanted a more...honorable death than throwing duck out of the train.
5.-No comment.
6.-According to Kenny, they already raided the drug store more than once.
7.-As you can see in ep2, the wound wasn't that bad.
8.- They needed people in the motel to guard it against bandits or walkers.Also, 2 people attracts less attention.
2. Don't know, didn't play that part.
3. Because the people who always fight over people being bitten or who to sacrifice are Larry, Lee, Kenny, Carley, and Lilly.
4. Because Duck's a ten-year-old boy.
5. Lee wandered off by himself. Clem snuck off after him. No one even noticed they were gone except for Christa, who chased them down and gave them shit about it.
6. Closer to six months, I believe. It was 3 months at the beginning of Episode 2 and Chuck mentions being alone for six months. Anyway, they said early on that they've been regularly making trips to the pharmacy and they were running out of supplies. They just never made a scene about it.
7. It's likely been 8-12 weeks since he was shot (see above), so he probably figured he was close to healing up.
8. Someone had to defend the camp from all of those bandit attacks.
9. You can't feed yourself on antibiotics and pain killers.
10. Katjaa had to be strong enough to support both Kenny and Duck. Kenny got to vent and air his feelings and scream and get angry. Notice how he wouldn't even look at his dying son most of the time and spent all of his time in the train cab? Notice how he sent Ben off to watch his family? Katjaa took on all of their emotional burdens and it broke her down. Kenny didn't have to be strong, Katjaa was strong for the both of them. And then she couldn't take it anymore.
I've got to disagree. There were several character defining decisions in this episode that tell you what kind of person Lee is. We're making important decisions while inside the greater framework of the narrative created by TTG. It's not in the "loosest sense" at all to me.
As for the emotion comment, it's still very much there. People are cracking and it absolutely shows this episode. Lilly completely loses it due to the events in the past episodes. Katjaa is a wreck and in complete despair. So much so that she takes her own life. Kenny is pretty much broken and the only thing that he can do is hold on to his "plan" of getting to the coast. Without that he'd be gone. Ben is wracked with guilt over what happened outside the RV, it really shows on the train. People don't always break down and sob to show emotion, dude. It's pretty obvious most are in shock.
As for the parts of the story that you say make no sense; you might want to replay and pay more attention I guess.
1) You shouldn't always be able to reason with people. Especially those under a great deal of stress. Lee isn't a deity. After she kills Doug/Carley, she seemed to me to have a moment of realization of what she'd just done. Lee grabbing her wrist and restraining her kind of prevented her from taking another shot, no?
2) She probably gives you the option to go with her because she knows you won't leave without Clem and it's an easy way to get you off the RV. I honestly think she doesn't want to face anyone left in the group.
3) Kenny and Katjaa tell you about Duck being bitten. At least they do if you've been honest with them. Duck is dying but he's still got time. Like I said earlier, all of them are in shock. They've just lost all stability (what little they had) and watched their friend get killed by another member of the group (they might not have liked Lilly, but they still trusted her).
4) No one goes with Lee and Clem because most are doing something else. Kenny is teaching Omid how to operate the train. Chuck or Christie could have but they're doing their own thing I guess. I have no idea how the two of them looking around a bit make no sense to you though.
5) At the start of the game, it's made pretty obvious that they've made raiding trips into Macon SEVERAL times. Did you even pay attention here? It's also made very clear that they've essentially cleaned the pharmacy out and this will be their last trip because there's almost nothing left. They make comments about coming into town several times during this segment and after they get back to the inn.
6) It's pretty much the norm in "The Walking Dead" (it's pretty much common sense too) that small groups are much easier to travel around to seek supplies than large and noisy groups of people. It's also been 3 months since Kenny was shot. Not to mention they need people to defend the Inn and the children.
In the end, most of the inconsistencies you mention are due to your lack of attention to the story. I can understand that you didn't like this episode, but at least be fair in your assessment.
duck?? kill him or force kenny to do it ? i'd say thats a big choice, kenny has nothing left, other than 'boozing' and lee's friendship.. depsite being a bit pro larry..
i just think the choices may not seem to matter but underneath the surface they do,
how does anyone know ttg aren't saving them for ep5 ?
you dont have to force him to do it, i sort of see it as making him 100% sure it is what should be done, instead of you doing it for him
Like this?
http://www.ign.com/videos/2012/04/26/the-walking-dead-the-game-choice-matters-trailer
Still talks about dialogue choices that affect what people think about you and some choices may not be felt until episodes later down the line. Also, this video came out around the time the first episode was released, much later than playing dead episode 2.
The information was there, I remember watching them (Playing Dead) before the game came out...then I forgot about them and game until after Episode 2 was out and saw a review for it on IGN.
Finding this stuff was as simple as going to thewalkingdeadgame.com and watching the videos. If everyone wanted to get their information through 3rd party sources and those sources didn't provide it, so be it, but the information was available.
and people forget ttg ain't that big (growing)...
i say leave ttg the fuck alone and get over it...
But... didn't you create the "Save Carley" facebook page?
Episode 3 made me feel like a bystander. I might as well have been watching a movie.
Eh, even in the video they say the choices will affect peoples' opinions of you as Lee. Killing the St. John brothers at the farm. Either way, Clementine seems about the same in the 3rd episode regardless of the choice you make there. The same goes for stealing the food from the car. An offhand comment and you never hear it again. I'm not saying that it won't affect the story down the line in a significant way, but so far it hasn't, which is not what they so frequently advertised. I'm not saying everyone shouldn't have looked into it further, but I think it is at least partially TT's fault for not making it clear.
And that was just the first five minutes of the game.
Ok, you can look at it that way, but if Lilly is pissed at me at the end of Episode 2, she mentions how she could have killed me in the RV before she steals it in episode 3.
Where as, if I was friendly with her, she still takes off but does so cordially by asking you to go get Clem to bait you into leaving the RV.
So her attitude towards me was affected by prior decisions.
You can say "yeah but you're still in the same place because you can't actually go with lilly" (I've heard other people say that)... with that comes an entirely different story arc, in essence the game would then be split into 2 separate games and that's just not feasible.
When dealing with the St John brothers, I had the opportunity to speak with Clem after and explain why I did what I did. I got something on screen that told me Clem understood.
I also believe there is dialogue explaining killing in episode 3 when you admit to Clem you've killed people (Carley play through) if I'm not mistaken, I'd have to play through 3 again to confirm.
The differences and the effects are there, if you look for them.
One was about the differences in play style between Lilly and Kenny.
The other was about who you side with and why.
Team Lilly vs Team Larry is such a more awesome and descriptive thread name in my humble opinion.
Why wouldn't she try to kill you when you're in the RV and have your back turned (particularly if you killed her father)? Obviously she can't kill Lee, but if he fights her off in a quicktime sequence, the story ends the same way. It just feels like laziness to me. Either way she screws you over and takes the RV. I don't see slight conversation differences that last for a short amount of time as "making choices matter" as TT has so frequently proclaimed. If their intention was to only use small conversational differences as the things that were affected by choices, they should have made that a hell of a lot more clear when advertising it. Even when Clementine sees you murder both St. John brothers, she is horrified for all of about 3 minutes, and then she seems to not care. I can respect your view on the topic, but I just feel differently.