The first time I played, I was with Kenny all the way. I played according to how my conscience dictated, and personally I found myself siding with Kenny.
And I found myself doing the same in Season 2 as well. Even though Kenny was becoming increasingly erratic, I still stuck by him because I could see in him loyalty to his own.
And I hope that Kenny will still be around in Season 3, that he will not be killed off, as so many other determinate characters have been.
TEAM KENNY FOR LIFE!!! I never really liked Lily and disliked her more when she killed Carley/Doug, but I do think she was a good character. I would like to see her next season to see if she has changed much. But obviously I'm on Kennys side.
Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it. I know people will say Jane, but she provoked him by hiding the baby and implying that it was dead, toying with Kenny's mental state at the time, but Lily simply shot Carly because she didn't like hearing Carly's opinion of her. Carly had done nothing to hurt Lily or anyone for that matter, yet Lily kills her without a second thought in cold blood with no real motivation behind it. When Kenny killed Larry, he did genuinely believe Larry was dead and would turn into a walker, and was trying to save those who were alive. Was it disgusting that he decided to kill the fucker right in front of his daughter? Yeah it was, but he wasn't really thinking things through (as always), but his intentions were still good. Lily's murder of Carly is completely different and is in no way, justifiable. She may have been angry and irrational due to her father's death, but it's still not, in my opinion, enough to excuse killing an innocent person. If she had killed Ben, I'd understand, but she didn't and it makes her character far more ruthless than Kenny. At least Kenny's actions can be justified.
BTW, I do like each character. They're both some of the more interesting characters in the game and I believe that while a lot of their actions are awful, I don't think they ever truly become bad people. While Lily does become a murderer and I can't justify what she did to Carly, I still like the character and believe up until that point, I could understand her point of view. Hope we see them again in S3.
she attempts to kill Ben but kills Doug instead. The thing is, she had no evidence that it was Ben, Carley or anyone. She was just pointing fingers at who she suspected.
Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it. I know people will say Jane… more, but she provoked him by hiding the baby and implying that it was dead, toying with Kenny's mental state at the time, but Lily simply shot Carly because she didn't like hearing Carly's opinion of her. Carly had done nothing to hurt Lily or anyone for that matter, yet Lily kills her without a second thought in cold blood with no real motivation behind it. When Kenny killed Larry, he did genuinely believe Larry was dead and would turn into a walker, and was trying to save those who were alive. Was it disgusting that he decided to kill the fucker right in front of his daughter? Yeah it was, but he wasn't really thinking things through (as always), but his intentions were still good. Lily's murder of Carly is completely different and is in no way, justifiable. She may have been angry and irrational due to he… [view original content]
Yeah, but I always felt it was pretty obviously Ben, so her pointing fingers at him made sense. I didn't know much about Doug's death though, as I never played S1 where he actually lives.
If she had killed Ben, I'd understand
she attempts to kill Ben but kills Doug instead. The thing is, she had no evidence that it was Ben, Carley or anyone. She was just pointing fingers at who she suspected.
If she had killed Ben, I'd understand
she attempts to kill Ben but kills Doug instead. The thing is, she had no evidence that it was Ben, Carley or anyone. She was just pointing fingers at who she suspected.
Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it.
He wanted to let Beatrice be devoured so that he and Lee could get some extra supplies. And she surely didn't deserve it.
He advocated to kill Larry without even waiting for him to either wake up or reanimate, when they could've held a salt lick over his head and another one on his chest so that he didn't stand up, had he been a walker. It is understandable though, since it was a life or death situation, which doesn't justify it, since he did carry out the murder.
He attempted to kill Ben Paul and, after failing, and calming down to a degree, then tried to convince Lee of letting him die, when Ben himself said that he was truly sorry for the chain of events that he untied while having good intentions. Again, understandable but not justified. And also immoral.
Johnny's death is pretty self-explanatory. He didn't deserve to die, contrasting with what you said.
That indirectly caused the death of Walter.
A similar situation can end up triggering the death of Alvin.
He shot Natasha. Of course, the two groups had engaged in a firefight, but that doesn't make her specifically a bad person who deserved to die, does it?
I will reply again later today in response to your criticism of Jane and Lilly's behavior, because I have a lot to say about that.
Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it. I know people will say Jane… more, but she provoked him by hiding the baby and implying that it was dead, toying with Kenny's mental state at the time, but Lily simply shot Carly because she didn't like hearing Carly's opinion of her. Carly had done nothing to hurt Lily or anyone for that matter, yet Lily kills her without a second thought in cold blood with no real motivation behind it. When Kenny killed Larry, he did genuinely believe Larry was dead and would turn into a walker, and was trying to save those who were alive. Was it disgusting that he decided to kill the fucker right in front of his daughter? Yeah it was, but he wasn't really thinking things through (as always), but his intentions were still good. Lily's murder of Carly is completely different and is in no way, justifiable. She may have been angry and irrational due to he… [view original content]
Having looked at my original comment, deserve wasn't quite the right word to use, but I stand by my original point. Kenny's never directly caused the death of an innocent person without any real motivation or reasoning, unlike Lily. Beatrice was bitten, so there was no way to help her. Kenny's idea, while cruel, made sense and it was the best way to gather the supplies. The Larry situation was, in my opinion, justifiable. Larry had died and would have turned into a walker, risking the lives of everyone in the meat locker. Would it have made more sense to do what you suggested? Probably, but I as I said Kenny wasn't thinking things completely through. Attempting to kill Ben, the person responsible for his family's deaths and others, is justified. Ben's stupid actions resulted in people's deaths and he even allowed Carly, someone who stood up for him, to die because he was too much of a coward to admit the truth. Johnny and Natasha were members of groups who were trying to kill Kenny, Clementine and the remaining living cast of S2, so yeah, I'd say they deserved to die. Johnny, especially, considering he was loyal to a psychotic madman known as Carver.
Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it.
* He wanted to le… moret Beatrice be devoured so that he and Lee could get some extra supplies. And she surely didn't deserve it.
* He advocated to kill Larry without even waiting for him to either wake up or reanimate, when they could've held a salt lick over his head and another one on his chest so that he didn't stand up, had he been a walker. It is understandable though, since it was a life or death situation, which doesn't justify it, since he did carry out the murder.
* He attempted to kill Ben Paul and, after failing, and calming down to a degree, then tried to convince Lee of letting him die, when Ben himself said that he was truly sorry for the chain of events that he untied while having good intentions. Again, understandable but not justified. And also immoral.
* Johnny's death is pretty self-explanatory. He didn't… [view original content]
He wanted to let Beatrice be devoured so that he and Lee could get some extra supplies. And she surely didn't deserve it.
He wasn't responsible for Lee's actions, as we know it was determinant and quite frankly the girl was bitten, she was always going to die after that. It was shitty for her to be left to die but in a survival situation, i'd do the same. Sorry. I guess she didn't deserve it but she was dead anyway.
He advocated to kill Larry without even waiting for him to either wake up or reanimate, when they could've held a salt lick over his head and another one on his chest so that he didn't stand up, had he been a walker. It is understandable though, since it was a life or death situation, which doesn't justify it, since he did carry out the murder.
And we all know that he rushed into that decision and like you said, it was understandable why he did it but it could have been dealt with better.
He attempted to kill Ben Paul and, after failing, and calming down to a degree, then tried to convince Lee of letting him die, when Ben himself said that he was truly sorry for the chain of events that he untied while having good intentions. Again, understandable but not justified. And also immoral.
You will disagree with me as usual but personally i feel as though he wasn't trying to actually kill him despite his outburst when he found out what Ben did, more so wanting to beat the shit out of him. That's my personal opinion on that. He wanted Lee to leave him behind though yes and as you said, it was understandable.
He shot Natasha. Of course, the two groups had engaged in a firefight, but that doesn't make her specifically a bad person who deserved to die, does it?
Well if someone holds a gun on me, that person is always going to be my enemy. It would be a me or her situation and It would be hard to not say she didn't deserve to die if she's trying to kill me too. Fuck that.
Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it.
* He wanted to le… moret Beatrice be devoured so that he and Lee could get some extra supplies. And she surely didn't deserve it.
* He advocated to kill Larry without even waiting for him to either wake up or reanimate, when they could've held a salt lick over his head and another one on his chest so that he didn't stand up, had he been a walker. It is understandable though, since it was a life or death situation, which doesn't justify it, since he did carry out the murder.
* He attempted to kill Ben Paul and, after failing, and calming down to a degree, then tried to convince Lee of letting him die, when Ben himself said that he was truly sorry for the chain of events that he untied while having good intentions. Again, understandable but not justified. And also immoral.
* Johnny's death is pretty self-explanatory. He didn't… [view original content]
Sometimes I am thinking if Clem was the one who lose AJ, what Kenny would do about that.
Given the fact he cares more about Clem than any of the other characters excluding AJ, i will always refuse to believe that. The only person he had ever trusted was Clem out of everyone else which is why it was different with Jane, someone he didn't like or trust. The worst he would do i think is get angry at her again if she was the cause of AJ dying and i say that because Kenny could have done physical harm to Clem when Sarita died but he didn't. Anyway that's my view/opinion on it
Kenny and Lilly are same. Both of them lost family. Lilly killed Carley/Doug for her selfish reasons like Kenny killed Jane.
Sometimes I am thinking if Clem was the one who lose AJ, what Kenny would do about that.
He wasn't responsible for Lee's actions, as we know it was determinant and quite frankly the girl was bitten, she was always going to die after that. It was shitty for her to be left to die but in a survival situation, i'd do the same. Sorry
I agree, he isn't responsible for any of the actions that Lee decides to carry out. However, it is evident that Kenny would have left Beatrice if he had been the one with the rifle. I consider that to be wrong, since he easily could've ended the suffering of a woman who had had a struggle of her own. I also do understand why Kenny wouldn't want to put her out of her misery—medicine was running low, and it could be of use to his family some day. But then again, if he had taken the shot, Beatrice wouldn't even notice and she'd already be at peace, and we know that the medicine didn't make a different after it was all left for the surviving bandits, if any survived and took over the Motor Inn's supplies.
Looking at it from that perspective, taking extra medicine did help somebody, and that is morally correct, but those who'd benefit would be people who would carry on to kill and steal from others. Maybe I'm getting a little stretched out in this topic.
You will disagree with me as usual
Please, don't take it as if I disagree with you occasionally just because you're you! I am sure that we will find common ground eventually.
but personally i feel as though he wasn't trying to actually kill him despite his outburst when he found out what Ben did, more so wanting to beat the shit out of him. That's my personal opinion on that. He wanted Lee to leave him behind though yes and as you said, it was understandable.
That would be understandable, and while it would still be immoral, since it would cause unnecesary damage to somebody while the benefit isn't greater, it wouldn't be as bad as attempting outright kill him. The issue is that Kenny later signals Lee to let Ben fall from the bell tower onto a pool of walkers, and that, to me, is certain death.
And we all know that he rushed into that decision and like you said, it was understandable why he did it but it could have been dealt with better.
cOMMON GROUNd
Well if someone holds a gun on me, that person is always going to be my enemy. It would be a me or her situation and she deserves to die if she's trying to kill me too. Fuck that.
I honestly believe that we have to consider the underlying subtext in this particular situation—namely, translation of the Russian dialogue. In this, Natasha recurrently tells Buricko that they should just back up and let the bandits—us—keep their stuff. However, Buricko is the one who fires his assault rifle first, and Pete knows how, Kenny, who was being directly fired at by Buricko, manages to shoot Natasha, while Bonnie, who was about to shoot Natasha, takes cover behind a tree.
The situation pushed Kenny and Natasha to be confronted against one another, and I suppose that if either of them had shot the other, they'd have been justified on doing so. What goes for sure is that Natasha didn't deserve to die just because she was an antagonist, but @OneWayNoWay acknowledges that "deserve" wasn't quite the appropriate word. The firefight scene was messy as it is.
He wanted to let Beatrice be devoured so that he and Lee could get some extra supplies. And she surely didn't deserve it.
He wasn't … moreresponsible for Lee's actions, as we know it was determinant and quite frankly the girl was bitten, she was always going to die after that. It was shitty for her to be left to die but in a survival situation, i'd do the same. Sorry. I guess she didn't deserve it but she was dead anyway.
He advocated to kill Larry without even waiting for him to either wake up or reanimate, when they could've held a salt lick over his head and another one on his chest so that he didn't stand up, had he been a walker. It is understandable though, since it was a life or death situation, which doesn't justify it, since he did carry out the murder.
And we all know that he rushed into that decision and like you said, it was understandable why he did it but it could have been dealt with better.
He attempted t… [view original content]
I actually also think it would be a waste of a bullet to put someone out of their misery as cruel as that is especially if you know they are going to die anyway and again if it is a survival situation i'd do the same thing.
The issue is that Kenny later signals Lee to let Ben fall from the bell tower onto a pool of walkers, and that, to me, is certain death.
He was angry and hated Ben from that moment onwards. It wasn't nice signalling to Lee to drop him. Later on he determinantly says "i'm glad it was you and not me making that call" as in whether to save him or not implying that he would have dropped him, however, he is basically showing that this would have been a decision he would have regretted had he done so since he was glad Lee made the call and not him. I'm basically saying that he probably wanted him dead in the spur of the moment but deep down didn't but i guess it's how one looks at the situation.
I think yes the word "deserved" is extreme in some cases. I guess it should be worded like, so and so's death (example Natasha or Buricko) is their own fault that it happened and their stupidity/ruthlessness was deserved for being the cause of their downfall but their death wasn't deserved for the sake of losing their lives if that makes sense? Lol sorry its hard to explain how i mean.
He wasn't responsible for Lee's actions, as we know it was determinant and quite frankly the girl was bitten, she was always going to die af… moreter that. It was shitty for her to be left to die but in a survival situation, i'd do the same. Sorry
I agree, he isn't responsible for any of the actions that Lee decides to carry out. However, it is evident that Kenny would have left Beatrice if he had been the one with the rifle. I consider that to be wrong, since he easily could've ended the suffering of a woman who had had a struggle of her own. I also do understand why Kenny wouldn't want to put her out of her misery—medicine was running low, and it could be of use to his family some day. But then again, if he had taken the shot, Beatrice wouldn't even notice and she'd already be at peace, and we know that the medicine didn't make a different after it was all left for the surviving bandits, if any survived and took over the Motor Inn's suppl… [view original content]
I guess you mean to say that they set the situation up in a way that their own death was made possible, either because of external causes like acting recklessly around walkers, or because of the reaction of other people, in regard to their own actions.
I actually also think it would be a waste of a bullet to put someone out of their misery as cruel as that is especially if you know they are… more going to die anyway and again if it is a survival situation i'd do the same thing.
The issue is that Kenny later signals Lee to let Ben fall from the bell tower onto a pool of walkers, and that, to me, is certain death.
He was angry and hated Ben from that moment onwards. It wasn't nice signalling to Lee to drop him. Later on he determinantly says "i'm glad it was you and not me making that call" as in whether to save him or not implying that he would have dropped him, however, he is basically showing that this would have been a decision he would have regretted had he done so since he was glad Lee made the call and not him. I'm basically saying that he probably wanted him dead in the spur of the moment but deep down didn't but i guess it's how one looks at the situation.
I think yes the … [view original content]
However, it is evident that Kenny would have left Beatrice if he had been the one with the rifle. I consider that to be wrong, since he easily could've ended the suffering of a woman who had had a struggle of her own.
And run the risk of the walkers hearing them, thus risking the lives of himself and Lee? I mean, Beatrice was doomed no matter what happens, so Kenny using his brain for once and taking advantage of the situation in other to aid his group makes perfect sense to me, and isn't as half as bad compared to what Lily does to Carly/Doug.
He wasn't responsible for Lee's actions, as we know it was determinant and quite frankly the girl was bitten, she was always going to die af… moreter that. It was shitty for her to be left to die but in a survival situation, i'd do the same. Sorry
I agree, he isn't responsible for any of the actions that Lee decides to carry out. However, it is evident that Kenny would have left Beatrice if he had been the one with the rifle. I consider that to be wrong, since he easily could've ended the suffering of a woman who had had a struggle of her own. I also do understand why Kenny wouldn't want to put her out of her misery—medicine was running low, and it could be of use to his family some day. But then again, if he had taken the shot, Beatrice wouldn't even notice and she'd already be at peace, and we know that the medicine didn't make a different after it was all left for the surviving bandits, if any survived and took over the Motor Inn's suppl… [view original content]
You are right in that sense. I hadn't thought about it that way, to be honest.
taking advantage of the situation in other to aid his group makes perfect sense to me, and isn't as half as bad compared to what Lily does to Carly/Doug
Well, that's not fair. You're comparing Kenny in one of his most rational moments to Lilly in one of her most enraged and emotional moments. Oh, which reminds me that I'll be quoting your comment in a couple of minutes!
However, it is evident that Kenny would have left Beatrice if he had been the one with the rifle. I consider that to be wrong, since he easi… morely could've ended the suffering of a woman who had had a struggle of her own.
And run the risk of the walkers hearing them, thus risking the lives of himself and Lee? I mean, Beatrice was doomed no matter what happens, so Kenny using his brain for once and taking advantage of the situation in other to aid his group makes perfect sense to me, and isn't as half as bad compared to what Lily does to Carly/Doug.
You're comparing Kenny in one of his most rational moments to Lilly in one of her most enraged and emotional moments.
I was more referring to their motivations than anything else. Kenny's motivation behind his action was to help those he cared about at the expense of another person, whilst Lily just up front murdered someone in cold blood for no apparent reason. Although I'll admit technically my comparison wasn't fair, considering Lily was in an irrational and angered state, whilst Kenny as you pointed at, was rational.
Oh, which reminds me that I'll be quoting your comment in a couple of minutes!
You are right in that sense. I hadn't thought about it that way, to be honest.
taking advantage of the situation in other to aid his g… moreroup makes perfect sense to me, and isn't as half as bad compared to what Lily does to Carly/Doug
Well, that's not fair. You're comparing Kenny in one of his most rational moments to Lilly in one of her most enraged and emotional moments. Oh, which reminds me that I'll be quoting your comment in a couple of minutes!
First of all, I want to make clear that the following is just my opinion and what I consider moral and immoral in complex situations like these, with lots of contributing factors. Swallows headache pill. Let the discussion begin. Oh and before that, anyone feel free to join the discussion if you feel like it might contribute. That clarification was totally unnecessary since you'd do it anyway—I'm just prompting the debate.
Lily simply shot Carly because she didn't like hearing Carly's opinion of her. Carly had done nothing to hurt Lily or anyone for that matter, yet Lily kills her without a second thought in cold blood with no real motivation behind it. When Kenny killed Larry, he did genuinely believe Larry was dead and would turn into a walker, and was trying to save those who were alive. Was it disgusting that he decided to kill the fucker right in front of his daughter? Yeah it was, but he wasn't really thinking things through (as always), but his intentions were still good. Lily's murder of Carly is completely different and is in no way, justifiable. She may have been angry and irrational due to her father's death, but it's still not, in my opinion, enough to excuse killing an innocent person. If she had killed Ben, I'd understand, but she didn't
I do agree that murdering Carley was morally incorrect, completely. But we do have to address the fact that Carley personally insulted her in the face. Just the same day that evening, Kenny disregarded Carley's comment at the Motor Inn, and Lilly quickly told him to stop the attitude.
Carley: At it again, are we?
Kenny: Can it, Carley.
Lilly: Don't boss people around.
I do not remember what Kenny said afterwards, but he either casually apologized, or he changed the subject, both of which show that he eventually noticed how he acted afterwards. Okay. Small, trivial detail, but it shows that Lilly cared about Carley to some degree, and she does the same for Doug. I personally think that these trivial details really build the core of character relationships when we've had numerous time skips in between episodes. Later that day, the group is attacked by the Save-Lots bandits, and are forced to flee, and Lilly barely makes it to the RV before Kenny decides to take off, unaware of whether Lilly is on it or not.
Some of you might agree that there were hints that Lilly had some sort of crush on Lee, and the fact that he and Carley were starting a relationship obviously bothered her. This same uncomfortability might be what caused her to unconsciously doubt over Carley, despite showing that she cared about her earlier. This would go along with the fact that she didn't think Kenny would hand out supplies while having a family at the motel, that Ben would be incapable, and that Lee also wouldn't because of Clementine.
While further jamming accusations, Carley snaps, and confronts Lilly over being a scared person with low self-esteem who never does anything to help the group like Lee does. And everything comes together. Carley snapping after she defended her earlier; Carley simultaneously praising Lee; Carley deflecting attention from the fact that she has supposedly been handling supplies to bandits and putting the group at risk; Ben not confessing that it wasn't him; Carley acting like Lilly didn't make the tough calls and train everyone around guns for four months; the sorrow of her father not being there to support her; Lee not defending her; Kenny, the person who often disagreed with her, standing aside with virtual impunity; losing the motel that they worked so hard to keep safe, all because of Carley. Everything is just too much in the heat of the moment, so after thinking about it for log seconds, Lilly pulls a gun and shoots. She appears to be horrified at what she has done mere seconds later, which is longer than it has taken Kenny to regret anything.
"I was trying to protect all of us."
and it makes her character far more ruthless than Kenny.
Both sequences were carried out with good intentions. The difference is that it happened many, many times with Kenny, whereas it was only once with Lilly, and we felt more of an impact because Carley was a main character. But in quality, it's not any different.
At least Kenny's actions can be justified.
Most of them are understandable, but they are not justified nor moral.
Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it. I know people will say Jane… more, but she provoked him by hiding the baby and implying that it was dead, toying with Kenny's mental state at the time, but Lily simply shot Carly because she didn't like hearing Carly's opinion of her. Carly had done nothing to hurt Lily or anyone for that matter, yet Lily kills her without a second thought in cold blood with no real motivation behind it. When Kenny killed Larry, he did genuinely believe Larry was dead and would turn into a walker, and was trying to save those who were alive. Was it disgusting that he decided to kill the fucker right in front of his daughter? Yeah it was, but he wasn't really thinking things through (as always), but his intentions were still good. Lily's murder of Carly is completely different and is in no way, justifiable. She may have been angry and irrational due to he… [view original content]
I do not remember what Kenny said afterwards, but he either casually apologized, or he changed the subject, both of which show that he eventually noticed how he acted afterwards. Okay. Small, trivial detail, but it shows that Lilly cared about Carley to some degree, and she does the same for Doug.
I disagree with your interpretation of Lilly telling Kenny to not "boss people around". I don't think she said it because she cared for either Carly or Doug, nor was she defending them from Kenny, but it was because Kenny had technically ordered someone to "can it". It was more to due with the fact that once again, Kenny was acting as a leader when Lilly, herself, believed she was the leader of the group.
Later that day, the group is attacked by the Save-Lots bandits, and are forced to flee, and Lilly barely makes it to the RV before Kenny decides to take off, unaware of whether Lilly is on it or not.
Well, Kenny was rushing to flee the scene and it was a drastic situation, so I highly doubt he had intentions to try and leave Lilly behind.
Carley snapping after she defended her earlier; Carley simultaneously praising Lee; Carley deflecting attention from the fact that she has supposedly been handling supplies to bandits and putting the group at risk; Ben not confessing that it wasn't him; Carley acting like Lilly didn't make the tough calls and train everyone around guns for four months; the sorrow of her father not being there to support her; Lee not defending her; Kenny, the person who often disagreed with her, standing aside with virtual impunity; losing the motel that they worked so hard to keep safe, all because of Carley. Everything is just too much in the heat of the moment, so after thinking about it for log seconds, Lilly pulls a gun and shoots.
The thing is, I don't really believe Lilly ever thought Carly was responsible for the deal with the bandits. She pinned most of the blame and pressure onto Ben, trying to make him confess, whilst, in my opinion, secretly wanted him to say he didn't so that she'd have an excuse in killing Carly. I personally felt judging from the dialogue in the scene, that Lilly was confident that it was Ben, not Carly. Do I think Lily was jealous of Carly? Originally no, but after she shot her in sheer anger, I do think there most of been some animosity building up inside Lilly towards Carly, in order for her to do what she did.
Both sequences were carried out with good intentions. The difference is that it happened many, many times with Kenny, whereas it was only once with Lilly, and we felt more of an impact because Carley was a main character. But in quality, it's not any different.
Personally, I don't believe there was a good intention behind Lilly's murder. She did it out of sheer anger and hatred for Carly (possibly because of Lee, but who really knows?), whilst Kenny's actions most of the time do try to benefit those he cares about.
First of all, I want to make clear that the following is just my opinion and what I consider moral and immoral in complex situations like th… moreese, with lots of contributing factors. Swallows headache pill. Let the discussion begin. Oh and before that, anyone feel free to join the discussion if you feel like it might contribute. That clarification was totally unnecessary since you'd do it anyway—I'm just prompting the debate.
Lily simply shot Carly because she didn't like hearing Carly's opinion of her. Carly had done nothing to hurt Lily or anyone for that matter, yet Lily kills her without a second thought in cold blood with no real motivation behind it. When Kenny killed Larry, he did genuinely believe Larry was dead and would turn into a walker, and was trying to save those who were alive. Was it disgusting that he decided to kill the fucker right in front of his daughter? Yeah it was, but he wasn't really thinking things through (as a… [view original content]
I disagree with your interpretation of Lilly telling Kenny to not "boss people around". I don't think she said it because she cared for either Carly or Doug, nor was she defending them from Kenny, but it was because Kenny had technically ordered someone to "can it". It was more to due with the fact that once again, Kenny was acting as a leader when Lilly, herself, believed she was the leader of the group.
Having just rewatched that scene, I disagree with my previous interpretation, too, but I don't know what to make out of it. Lilly was taking the chance to confront Kenny about his behavior, but at the cost of kind of defending Carley, somebody who she also disliked to a degree.
Well, Kenny was rushing to flee the scene and it was a drastic situation, so I highly doubt he had intentions to try and leave Lilly behind.
He flat out shouts "screw her! Let her stay!" I suppose that means he was going to leave her behind if it was his call, although he does wait a couple of seconds after Lee asks him to do so. Either way it's clear that he would've preferred for her to stay in a walker infested motel.
The thing is, I don't really believe Lilly ever thought Carly was responsible for the deal with the bandits. She pinned most of the blame and pressure onto Ben, trying to make him confess, whilst, in my opinion, secretly wanted him to say he didn't so that she'd have an excuse in killing Carly. I personally felt judging from the dialogue in the scene, that Lilly was confident that it was Ben, not Carly. Do I think Lily was jealous of Carly? Originally no, but after she shot her in sheer anger, I do think there most of been some animosity building up inside Lilly towards Carly, in order for her to do what she did.
I don't know, to be honest. It could be possible, but it's up for interpretation more than anything, since characters don't have thought bubbles that we can read. Your own interpretation does seem plausible though. In that case, I am shocked that she managed to put aside the fact that Ben had been trading with the bandits, all to instead get rid of Carley, who she was hinted at having friction with, and all of that while dancing on a ball of grief and paranoia. I guess that's why she attempts to kill Ben if Carley isn't with Lee. This makes me think about Lilly's relationship with everyone in a different light.
As I said earlier, I watched the scene again, and I found that Carley made this facial expression when Lilly said that it's not easy for Lee to commit murder. What do you think about it? Could it be because she believes that Lilly is having subtext of knowing that Lee was a convicted murdered, as she later says? Could it have to do with the fact that both of them had had some conflict over Lee sometime during the time skip, and that Carley dislikes that Lilly is defending Lee?
I do not remember what Kenny said afterwards, but he either casually apologized, or he changed the subject, both of which show that he event… moreually noticed how he acted afterwards. Okay. Small, trivial detail, but it shows that Lilly cared about Carley to some degree, and she does the same for Doug.
I disagree with your interpretation of Lilly telling Kenny to not "boss people around". I don't think she said it because she cared for either Carly or Doug, nor was she defending them from Kenny, but it was because Kenny had technically ordered someone to "can it". It was more to due with the fact that once again, Kenny was acting as a leader when Lilly, herself, believed she was the leader of the group.
Later that day, the group is attacked by the Save-Lots bandits, and are forced to flee, and Lilly barely makes it to the RV before Kenny decides to take off, unaware of whether Lilly is on it or not.
Well, Kenny was rushing to… [view original content]
Having just rewatched that scene, I disagree with my previous interpretation, too, but I don't know what to make out of it. Lilly was taking the chance to confront Kenny about his behavior, but at the cost of kind of defending Carley, somebody who she also disliked to a degree.
I guess she simply wanted to reinforce to Kenny that she was the leader and that he had no right to boss those in the group around, even those she didn't have a liking for, such as Carly. Lilly needed to remind him and everyone else, it was her group and they were her people, not his. Or at least that's what I assumed from the scene.
He flat out shouts "screw her! Let her stay!" I suppose that means he was going to leave her behind if it was his call, although he does wait a couple of seconds after Lee asks him to do so. Either way it's clear that he would've preferred for her to stay in a walker infested motel.
I actually completely forgot that incident, to be honest. I, myself, will have to look over bits of season 1 and re-watch that scene.
As I said earlier, I watched the scene again, and I found that Carley made this facial expression when Lilly said that it's not easy for Lee to commit murder. What do you think about it? Could it be because she believes that Lilly is having subtext of knowing that Lee was a convicted murdered, as she later says? Could it have to do with the fact that both of them had had some conflict over Lee sometime during the time skip, and that Carley dislikes that Lilly is defending Lee?
Well, I do believe that it's most likely due to Lee being a convicted murderer and that's probably what TT intended, but at the same time, it's quite possible it could have been a hint towards some sort of rivalry that may have emerged between Carly and Lilly in the past. I firmly believe something must of motivated Lilly to do what she did and, as I previously stated, I don't think she ever really believed Carly was behind the missing supplies. She saw an opportunity to rid herself of Carly and she took it. Now whether her and Carly had both shared a mutual dislike towards each other is harder to say, as before the actually shooting, Carly didn't specifically show much dislike (or like, really) for Lily, but perhaps the look she gave could've been an indication at something. It's really something I'd have to think a bit about and obviously it's up for interpretation, so I'm not one hundred percent sure.
I disagree with your interpretation of Lilly telling Kenny to not "boss people around". I don't think she said it because she cared for eith… moreer Carly or Doug, nor was she defending them from Kenny, but it was because Kenny had technically ordered someone to "can it". It was more to due with the fact that once again, Kenny was acting as a leader when Lilly, herself, believed she was the leader of the group.
Having just rewatched that scene, I disagree with my previous interpretation, too, but I don't know what to make out of it. Lilly was taking the chance to confront Kenny about his behavior, but at the cost of kind of defending Carley, somebody who she also disliked to a degree.
Well, Kenny was rushing to flee the scene and it was a drastic situation, so I highly doubt he had intentions to try and leave Lilly behind.
He flat out shouts "screw her! Let her stay!" I suppose that means he was going to leave her behind if it… [view original content]
Lilly pulls a gun and shoots. She appears to be horrified at what she has done mere seconds later, which is longer than it has taken Kenny to regret anything.
The moment she shot Carley she didn't show any remorse or looked horrified what she did actually. It was only if/when Lee or Kenny chooses to leave her behind where she looks upset/horrified and starts making excuses even if she meant it. When she shot Doug however she genuinely looked horrified as that was accidental. Again i suppose it's how you look at it. As for Kenny taking longer to regret anything, debatable, but i guess everyone is different.
First of all, I want to make clear that the following is just my opinion and what I consider moral and immoral in complex situations like th… moreese, with lots of contributing factors. Swallows headache pill. Let the discussion begin. Oh and before that, anyone feel free to join the discussion if you feel like it might contribute. That clarification was totally unnecessary since you'd do it anyway—I'm just prompting the debate.
Lily simply shot Carly because she didn't like hearing Carly's opinion of her. Carly had done nothing to hurt Lily or anyone for that matter, yet Lily kills her without a second thought in cold blood with no real motivation behind it. When Kenny killed Larry, he did genuinely believe Larry was dead and would turn into a walker, and was trying to save those who were alive. Was it disgusting that he decided to kill the fucker right in front of his daughter? Yeah it was, but he wasn't really thinking things through (as a… [view original content]
Even though I like them both with kenny being liked a little more than lilly. I would choose neither but since there's no neither option I choose kenny because you've known him a lot longer, he knows how to fix things, he stayed around when lilly bailed, and because of that he's at least more reliable if anything.
I heard SO much about Kenny. And now...I feel Lilly should earn her keep with the upcoming season (fingers are crossed and hoping against hope). I believe Lilly should have a turn.
Used to be team Lilly, but just recently replayed season 1 again with kenny as a friend. He's really cool when he's not being a dick. So I'd say team Kenny he's a more interesting character.
Wait who killed her dad? That wouldn't be someone who deserved to die that way in front of his daughter...what kind of monster would do that. I wonder.
Comments
The first time I played, I was with Kenny all the way. I played according to how my conscience dictated, and personally I found myself siding with Kenny.
And I found myself doing the same in Season 2 as well. Even though Kenny was becoming increasingly erratic, I still stuck by him because I could see in him loyalty to his own.
And I hope that Kenny will still be around in Season 3, that he will not be killed off, as so many other determinate characters have been.
Necro'd again? This thread is familiar when I look back lol
Ayy, dat necrobump, though.
TEAM KENNY FOR LIFE!!! I never really liked Lily and disliked her more when she killed Carley/Doug, but I do think she was a good character. I would like to see her next season to see if she has changed much. But obviously I'm on Kennys side.
Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it. I know people will say Jane, but she provoked him by hiding the baby and implying that it was dead, toying with Kenny's mental state at the time, but Lily simply shot Carly because she didn't like hearing Carly's opinion of her. Carly had done nothing to hurt Lily or anyone for that matter, yet Lily kills her without a second thought in cold blood with no real motivation behind it. When Kenny killed Larry, he did genuinely believe Larry was dead and would turn into a walker, and was trying to save those who were alive. Was it disgusting that he decided to kill the fucker right in front of his daughter? Yeah it was, but he wasn't really thinking things through (as always), but his intentions were still good. Lily's murder of Carly is completely different and is in no way, justifiable. She may have been angry and irrational due to her father's death, but it's still not, in my opinion, enough to excuse killing an innocent person. If she had killed Ben, I'd understand, but she didn't and it makes her character far more ruthless than Kenny. At least Kenny's actions can be justified.
BTW, I do like each character. They're both some of the more interesting characters in the game and I believe that while a lot of their actions are awful, I don't think they ever truly become bad people. While Lily does become a murderer and I can't justify what she did to Carly, I still like the character and believe up until that point, I could understand her point of view. Hope we see them again in S3.
TeamKenny
Lenny ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
she attempts to kill Ben but kills Doug instead. The thing is, she had no evidence that it was Ben, Carley or anyone. She was just pointing fingers at who she suspected.
Yeah, but I always felt it was pretty obviously Ben, so her pointing fingers at him made sense. I didn't know much about Doug's death though, as I never played S1 where he actually lives.
I think she was just so on edge with a member of her group murdering her dad, that she thought anyone else could stab them in the backs aswell.
Johnny's death is pretty self-explanatory. He didn't deserve to die, contrasting with what you said.
He shot Natasha. Of course, the two groups had engaged in a firefight, but that doesn't make her specifically a bad person who deserved to die, does it?
I will reply again later today in response to your criticism of Jane and Lilly's behavior, because I have a lot to say about that.
Having looked at my original comment, deserve wasn't quite the right word to use, but I stand by my original point. Kenny's never directly caused the death of an innocent person without any real motivation or reasoning, unlike Lily. Beatrice was bitten, so there was no way to help her. Kenny's idea, while cruel, made sense and it was the best way to gather the supplies. The Larry situation was, in my opinion, justifiable. Larry had died and would have turned into a walker, risking the lives of everyone in the meat locker. Would it have made more sense to do what you suggested? Probably, but I as I said Kenny wasn't thinking things completely through. Attempting to kill Ben, the person responsible for his family's deaths and others, is justified. Ben's stupid actions resulted in people's deaths and he even allowed Carly, someone who stood up for him, to die because he was too much of a coward to admit the truth. Johnny and Natasha were members of groups who were trying to kill Kenny, Clementine and the remaining living cast of S2, so yeah, I'd say they deserved to die. Johnny, especially, considering he was loyal to a psychotic madman known as Carver.
He wasn't responsible for Lee's actions, as we know it was determinant and quite frankly the girl was bitten, she was always going to die after that. It was shitty for her to be left to die but in a survival situation, i'd do the same. Sorry. I guess she didn't deserve it but she was dead anyway.
And we all know that he rushed into that decision and like you said, it was understandable why he did it but it could have been dealt with better.
You will disagree with me as usual but personally i feel as though he wasn't trying to actually kill him despite his outburst when he found out what Ben did, more so wanting to beat the shit out of him. That's my personal opinion on that. He wanted Lee to leave him behind though yes and as you said, it was understandable.
Well if someone holds a gun on me, that person is always going to be my enemy. It would be a me or her situation and It would be hard to not say she didn't deserve to die if she's trying to kill me too. Fuck that.
Given the fact he cares more about Clem than any of the other characters excluding AJ, i will always refuse to believe that. The only person he had ever trusted was Clem out of everyone else which is why it was different with Jane, someone he didn't like or trust. The worst he would do i think is get angry at her again if she was the cause of AJ dying and i say that because Kenny could have done physical harm to Clem when Sarita died but he didn't. Anyway that's my view/opinion on it
I agree, he isn't responsible for any of the actions that Lee decides to carry out. However, it is evident that Kenny would have left Beatrice if he had been the one with the rifle. I consider that to be wrong, since he easily could've ended the suffering of a woman who had had a struggle of her own. I also do understand why Kenny wouldn't want to put her out of her misery—medicine was running low, and it could be of use to his family some day. But then again, if he had taken the shot, Beatrice wouldn't even notice and she'd already be at peace, and we know that the medicine didn't make a different after it was all left for the surviving bandits, if any survived and took over the Motor Inn's supplies.
Looking at it from that perspective, taking extra medicine did help somebody, and that is morally correct, but those who'd benefit would be people who would carry on to kill and steal from others. Maybe I'm getting a little stretched out in this topic.
Please, don't take it as if I disagree with you occasionally just because you're you! I am sure that we will find common ground eventually.
That would be understandable, and while it would still be immoral, since it would cause unnecesary damage to somebody while the benefit isn't greater, it wouldn't be as bad as attempting outright kill him. The issue is that Kenny later signals Lee to let Ben fall from the bell tower onto a pool of walkers, and that, to me, is certain death.
cOMMON GROUNd
I honestly believe that we have to consider the underlying subtext in this particular situation—namely, translation of the Russian dialogue. In this, Natasha recurrently tells Buricko that they should just back up and let the bandits—us—keep their stuff. However, Buricko is the one who fires his assault rifle first, and Pete knows how, Kenny, who was being directly fired at by Buricko, manages to shoot Natasha, while Bonnie, who was about to shoot Natasha, takes cover behind a tree.
The situation pushed Kenny and Natasha to be confronted against one another, and I suppose that if either of them had shot the other, they'd have been justified on doing so. What goes for sure is that Natasha didn't deserve to die just because she was an antagonist, but @OneWayNoWay acknowledges that "deserve" wasn't quite the appropriate word. The firefight scene was messy as it is.
What? Killy!
I actually also think it would be a waste of a bullet to put someone out of their misery as cruel as that is especially if you know they are going to die anyway and again if it is a survival situation i'd do the same thing.
He was angry and hated Ben from that moment onwards. It wasn't nice signalling to Lee to drop him. Later on he determinantly says "i'm glad it was you and not me making that call" as in whether to save him or not implying that he would have dropped him, however, he is basically showing that this would have been a decision he would have regretted had he done so since he was glad Lee made the call and not him. I'm basically saying that he probably wanted him dead in the spur of the moment but deep down didn't but i guess it's how one looks at the situation.
I think yes the word "deserved" is extreme in some cases. I guess it should be worded like, so and so's death (example Natasha or Buricko) is their own fault that it happened and their stupidity/ruthlessness was deserved for being the cause of their downfall but their death wasn't deserved for the sake of losing their lives if that makes sense? Lol sorry its hard to explain how i mean.
I guess you mean to say that they set the situation up in a way that their own death was made possible, either because of external causes like acting recklessly around walkers, or because of the reaction of other people, in regard to their own actions.
And run the risk of the walkers hearing them, thus risking the lives of himself and Lee? I mean, Beatrice was doomed no matter what happens, so Kenny using his brain for once and taking advantage of the situation in other to aid his group makes perfect sense to me, and isn't as half as bad compared to what Lily does to Carly/Doug.
Lol! XD
You are right in that sense. I hadn't thought about it that way, to be honest.
Well, that's not fair. You're comparing Kenny in one of his most rational moments to Lilly in one of her most enraged and emotional moments. Oh, which reminds me that I'll be quoting your comment in a couple of minutes!
Can I choose none of them?
I was more referring to their motivations than anything else. Kenny's motivation behind his action was to help those he cared about at the expense of another person, whilst Lily just up front murdered someone in cold blood for no apparent reason. Although I'll admit technically my comparison wasn't fair, considering Lily was in an irrational and angered state, whilst Kenny as you pointed at, was rational.
Oh, goody.
Is there a link to that gif? My iPad doesn't save those
First of all, I want to make clear that the following is just my opinion and what I consider moral and immoral in complex situations like these, with lots of contributing factors. Swallows headache pill. Let the discussion begin. Oh and before that, anyone feel free to join the discussion if you feel like it might contribute. That clarification was totally unnecessary since you'd do it anyway—I'm just prompting the debate.
I do agree that murdering Carley was morally incorrect, completely. But we do have to address the fact that Carley personally insulted her in the face. Just the same day that evening, Kenny disregarded Carley's comment at the Motor Inn, and Lilly quickly told him to stop the attitude.
I do not remember what Kenny said afterwards, but he either casually apologized, or he changed the subject, both of which show that he eventually noticed how he acted afterwards. Okay. Small, trivial detail, but it shows that Lilly cared about Carley to some degree, and she does the same for Doug. I personally think that these trivial details really build the core of character relationships when we've had numerous time skips in between episodes. Later that day, the group is attacked by the Save-Lots bandits, and are forced to flee, and Lilly barely makes it to the RV before Kenny decides to take off, unaware of whether Lilly is on it or not.
Some of you might agree that there were hints that Lilly had some sort of crush on Lee, and the fact that he and Carley were starting a relationship obviously bothered her. This same uncomfortability might be what caused her to unconsciously doubt over Carley, despite showing that she cared about her earlier. This would go along with the fact that she didn't think Kenny would hand out supplies while having a family at the motel, that Ben would be incapable, and that Lee also wouldn't because of Clementine.
While further jamming accusations, Carley snaps, and confronts Lilly over being a scared person with low self-esteem who never does anything to help the group like Lee does. And everything comes together. Carley snapping after she defended her earlier; Carley simultaneously praising Lee; Carley deflecting attention from the fact that she has supposedly been handling supplies to bandits and putting the group at risk; Ben not confessing that it wasn't him; Carley acting like Lilly didn't make the tough calls and train everyone around guns for four months; the sorrow of her father not being there to support her; Lee not defending her; Kenny, the person who often disagreed with her, standing aside with virtual impunity; losing the motel that they worked so hard to keep safe, all because of Carley. Everything is just too much in the heat of the moment, so after thinking about it for log seconds, Lilly pulls a gun and shoots. She appears to be horrified at what she has done mere seconds later, which is longer than it has taken Kenny to regret anything.
"I was trying to protect all of us."
Both sequences were carried out with good intentions. The difference is that it happened many, many times with Kenny, whereas it was only once with Lilly, and we felt more of an impact because Carley was a main character. But in quality, it's not any different.
Most of them are understandable, but they are not justified nor moral.
I disagree with your interpretation of Lilly telling Kenny to not "boss people around". I don't think she said it because she cared for either Carly or Doug, nor was she defending them from Kenny, but it was because Kenny had technically ordered someone to "can it". It was more to due with the fact that once again, Kenny was acting as a leader when Lilly, herself, believed she was the leader of the group.
Well, Kenny was rushing to flee the scene and it was a drastic situation, so I highly doubt he had intentions to try and leave Lilly behind.
The thing is, I don't really believe Lilly ever thought Carly was responsible for the deal with the bandits. She pinned most of the blame and pressure onto Ben, trying to make him confess, whilst, in my opinion, secretly wanted him to say he didn't so that she'd have an excuse in killing Carly. I personally felt judging from the dialogue in the scene, that Lilly was confident that it was Ben, not Carly. Do I think Lily was jealous of Carly? Originally no, but after she shot her in sheer anger, I do think there most of been some animosity building up inside Lilly towards Carly, in order for her to do what she did.
Personally, I don't believe there was a good intention behind Lilly's murder. She did it out of sheer anger and hatred for Carly (possibly because of Lee, but who really knows?), whilst Kenny's actions most of the time do try to benefit those he cares about.
Having just rewatched that scene, I disagree with my previous interpretation, too, but I don't know what to make out of it. Lilly was taking the chance to confront Kenny about his behavior, but at the cost of kind of defending Carley, somebody who she also disliked to a degree.
He flat out shouts "screw her! Let her stay!" I suppose that means he was going to leave her behind if it was his call, although he does wait a couple of seconds after Lee asks him to do so. Either way it's clear that he would've preferred for her to stay in a walker infested motel.
I don't know, to be honest. It could be possible, but it's up for interpretation more than anything, since characters don't have thought bubbles that we can read. Your own interpretation does seem plausible though. In that case, I am shocked that she managed to put aside the fact that Ben had been trading with the bandits, all to instead get rid of Carley, who she was hinted at having friction with, and all of that while dancing on a ball of grief and paranoia. I guess that's why she attempts to kill Ben if Carley isn't with Lee. This makes me think about Lilly's relationship with everyone in a different light.
As I said earlier, I watched the scene again, and I found that Carley made this facial expression when Lilly said that it's not easy for Lee to commit murder. What do you think about it? Could it be because she believes that Lilly is having subtext of knowing that Lee was a convicted murdered, as she later says? Could it have to do with the fact that both of them had had some conflict over Lee sometime during the time skip, and that Carley dislikes that Lilly is defending Lee?
I guess she simply wanted to reinforce to Kenny that she was the leader and that he had no right to boss those in the group around, even those she didn't have a liking for, such as Carly. Lilly needed to remind him and everyone else, it was her group and they were her people, not his. Or at least that's what I assumed from the scene.
I actually completely forgot that incident, to be honest. I, myself, will have to look over bits of season 1 and re-watch that scene.
Well, I do believe that it's most likely due to Lee being a convicted murderer and that's probably what TT intended, but at the same time, it's quite possible it could have been a hint towards some sort of rivalry that may have emerged between Carly and Lilly in the past. I firmly believe something must of motivated Lilly to do what she did and, as I previously stated, I don't think she ever really believed Carly was behind the missing supplies. She saw an opportunity to rid herself of Carly and she took it. Now whether her and Carly had both shared a mutual dislike towards each other is harder to say, as before the actually shooting, Carly didn't specifically show much dislike (or like, really) for Lily, but perhaps the look she gave could've been an indication at something. It's really something I'd have to think a bit about and obviously it's up for interpretation, so I'm not one hundred percent sure.
Sure.
Is that good, bud?
Yep, thanks, you're awesome
Glad to be helpful, love. ^-^
The moment she shot Carley she didn't show any remorse or looked horrified what she did actually. It was only if/when Lee or Kenny chooses to leave her behind where she looks upset/horrified and starts making excuses even if she meant it. When she shot Doug however she genuinely looked horrified as that was accidental. Again i suppose it's how you look at it. As for Kenny taking longer to regret anything, debatable, but i guess everyone is different.
Even though I like them both with kenny being liked a little more than lilly. I would choose neither but since there's no neither option I choose kenny because you've known him a lot longer, he knows how to fix things, he stayed around when lilly bailed, and because of that he's at least more reliable if anything.
I heard SO much about Kenny. And now...I feel Lilly should earn her keep with the upcoming season (fingers are crossed and hoping against hope). I believe Lilly should have a turn.
this isn't even a hard decision lmao, lilly is a goddess and kenny is a garbage person :^)
Used to be team Lilly, but just recently replayed season 1 again with kenny as a friend. He's really cool when he's not being a dick. So I'd say team Kenny he's a more interesting character.
Lilly.
I understand Kenny is a broken man, but goodness gracious is he just a downright awful human being.
Wait who killed her dad? That wouldn't be someone who deserved to die that way in front of his daughter...what kind of monster would do that. I wonder.