You know what actually? Forget it because i can see it turning into another argument. I know my feelings on the Lilly/Kenny situation as well as the meay locker scene and nothing will change that
This is already an argument, but what is wrong with arguments anyways? Isn't that one of the things this forums are made for? As long as we keep it civil this is just another harmless argument!
You are looking for the term "discussion," @IronWoodLover. I don't see anyone throwing in insults nor one-liners—the composition of 98% of YouTube comments.
This is already an argument, but what is wrong with arguments anyways? Isn't that one of the things this forums are made for? As long as we keep it civil this is just another harmless argument!
Well one of the defenitions of argument is 'a discussion involving different points of view'. Anyway, the term is not the point here. I was trying to enforce your idea that an argument/diacussion/battle of opinions/whatever is not a bad thing when done right and Dan should not restrain himself of getting into one and putting his opinions out there because it is, in fact, harmless.
the composition of 98% of YouTube comments.
Once, I tried share my feelings about Jane in one youtube comment that was condemning the youtuber for choosing Jane over Kenny... It didn't go that well. Youtube does not have many people willing to have their opinions challenged, unfortunately. Those people will often get agressive and unpolite, which sucks because a big part of everything's fandom only hangs out on youtube.
You are looking for the term "discussion," @IronWoodLover. I don't see anyone throwing in insults nor one-liners—the composition of 98% of YouTube comments.
Also, if you disagree with Lilly and give food to Carley, Lilly will say that Lee is playing favourites.
I definitely think that Lilly had a thing for Lee.
What bugged me out is that Kenny doesn't forgive Lee after two entire weeks.
Kenny says "is your girl still mad at me (or you if Lee stole) for stealing from the station wagon last week, i don't recall it being 2 weeks but anyway, in regards to the forgiveness, i feel that by the end of season 1 and definitely in season 2 he has forgiven him. I guess you can look at his grudge as being extreme but some people sadly hold them longer than others.
If Lee helped Larry by doing chest compressions, did Kenny lose a family member, or is he just mad because Lee didn't side with him?
Well again it's a case of that it could have happened. No he didn't lose a family member but he was annoyed at the prospect of it possibly happening due to Lee's actions. Anyway it's the determinant topic again when it comes down to it.
Sometimes we all make it sound like this was a canon choice lol
And that was what he believed a risk in case he turned and killed all of them. He felt Lee was helping put them in danger by not doing the h… moreard thing. Besides and I don't care if you hate on me for this but who seriously gives a shit about Larry? He wouldn't have done the same for you if it was the other way round.
I acknowledge that Kenny thought the safest route was to kill Larry before reanimation possibly took place, and I appreciate that he went ahead and carried the plan out, considering that he described himself as the guy who couldn't stand watching the family dog be put down. That doesn't mean that I think it was moral—that's morally ambiguous more than anything in my opinion, since we don't know if Larry would've come back to life.
I don't give a shit about Larry anymore, since one of his few redeemable qualities—being a great father—is invalidated to me, taking into account that he used to abuse Lilly when she was younge… [view original content]
This is already an argument, but what is wrong with arguments anyways? Isn't that one of the things this forums are made for? As long as we keep it civil this is just another harmless argument!
Ehhh, I don't really think it was out-of-character. I think it was just one of those heat of the moment kind of things. I doubt she meant anything personal when she said that, she just lost her cool due to the stress of the situation, much like Lilly herself did. Between Lilly pointing the finger at her, everyone yelling at each other, the tension getting so thick you could cut it with a knife, she just couldn't take it and momentarily snapped. Sensory overload and all that.
Not everyone takes too kindly to people accusing them of stuff, even if snapping back at the accuser isn't the best course of action. And not everyone reacts too well in the middle of a heated argument. Take a minute and think about how many fights you've seen, be it videos or in real life, and how many of them could have been avoided if one person didn't egg the other one on, or said something stupid that finally pissed the other person off enough to throw a punch. I've seen more than enough fights break out because one person said something idiotic that they shouldn't have in the heat of the moment.
You think you're some tough bitch, don't you? Like nothing can hurt you. But, you're just a scared little girl. Get the fuck over it. Take a… more page from Lee's book and try helping somebody for once.
Looking back at it now, there was no real reason for Carley to say this to Lilly. Not to mention that this line from Carley also makes her appear unnecessarily spiteful in a play-through where she knows that Lee had helped Kenny kill Lilly's father.
One comment also pointed out how out-of-character Carley appeared at the time:
"Carley worries that the combined stress of the last several weeks is nearly sending Lilly over the edge. She notes that she respects Lilly and her efforts to take on the responsibilities of being the group's leader, and she asks Lee to help Lilly out in whatever ways he can. Less than an hour of gameplay later, she inexplicably forgets this entire conversation and proceeds to explode at Lilly just after the latt… [view original content]
No he didn't lose a family member but he was annoyed at the prospect of it possibly happening due to Lee's actions.
That is an interesting point you bring up, Dan.
From Kenny's perspective, it would be fairly reasonable to think that, if Lee already gambled with his family's life—and even Lilly's—by failing to put Larry down, which in turn would've ended up with Katjaa and Duck as permanent hostages of the St. John's, it could certainly happen again if it came to that choice in the future. Maybe Kenny wasn't bothered by Lee not siding with him as much as he was by Lee's attitude of not thinking about Katjaa and Duck's fates, of course, only in his eyes.
Kenny wasn't there when Lee saved Katjaa by causing Brenda to be devoured, so he couldn't have known that he is in fact responsible for her making it out alive, regardless of whether he helped Larry or restrained Lilly.
What bugged me out is that Kenny doesn't forgive Lee after two entire weeks.
Kenny says "is your girl still mad at me (or you if Lee… more stole) for stealing from the station wagon last week, i don't recall it being 2 weeks but anyway, in regards to the forgiveness, i feel that by the end of season 1 and definitely in season 2 he has forgiven him. I guess you can look at his grudge as being extreme but some people sadly hold them longer than others.
If Lee helped Larry by doing chest compressions, did Kenny lose a family member, or is he just mad because Lee didn't side with him?
Well again it's a case of that it could have happened. No he didn't lose a family member but he was annoyed at the prospect of it possibly happening due to Lee's actions. Anyway it's the determinant topic again when it comes down to it.
Sometimes we all make it sound like this was a canon choice lol
She sided with larry. That's a very big factor in me preferring kenny over her. Though you don't know much about her and it would be nice if you could know more about her and the only way that's possible is if she's in season 3 and she stays with you for at least an episode. If anything i'd prefer if she was in season 3 because of that and because imo her character either wasn't fully developed, or there could be more to her character than what you've seen in season 1.
I have no idea what you mean by this statement. My argument was Kenny started the fight for no real viable reason other than he thinks Jane murdered AJ because she didn't totally like him earlier. Are you trying to say Jane starts the fight (because yeah she does, I even say this and I say she's a bad person, because she is)? But I don't know what you're trying to say here.
Even when Clementine tries her best to stop the fight, he still carries on.
Jane carries on as well so please don't make it sound like it was just Kenny
Kenny wasn't there when Lee saved Katjaa by causing Brenda to be devoured, so he couldn't have known that he is in fact responsible for her making it out alive, regardless of whether he helped Larry or restrained Lilly.
Yes i know and this is something i wish Lee had mentioned to Kenny, "i saved Kat from Brenda" or something to let him know that he saved her life and i would have liked to see how he reacted. However he could have been told during the week time jump but we shouldn't be made to assume something we don't know for certain.
No he didn't lose a family member but he was annoyed at the prospect of it possibly happening due to Lee's actions.
That is an inter… moreesting point you bring up, Dan.
From Kenny's perspective, it would be fairly reasonable to think that, if Lee already gambled with his family's life—and even Lilly's—by failing to put Larry down, which in turn would've ended up with Katjaa and Duck as permanent hostages of the St. John's, it could certainly happen again if it came to that choice in the future. Maybe Kenny wasn't bothered by Lee not siding with him as much as he was by Lee's attitude of not thinking about Katjaa and Duck's fates, of course, only in his eyes.
Kenny wasn't there when Lee saved Katjaa by causing Brenda to be devoured, so he couldn't have known that he is in fact responsible for her making it out alive, regardless of whether he helped Larry or restrained Lilly.
You said that Clem tries to stop the fight but "he" (as in Kenny) still carries on which sounds to me as though he was solely to blame for "carrying" the fight on when that's not true because Jane carries on all the same despite Clem telling her to stop too. For example when Clem gets in between them, if she chooses to grab Jane (stopping her basically), Jane just throws Clem to the ground and carries on the fight. What i'm saying is that both of them carried the fight on and not just Kenny as you made it sound like
I have no idea what you mean by this statement. My argument was Kenny started the fight for no real viable reason other than he thinks Jane … moremurdered AJ because she didn't totally like him earlier. Are you trying to say Jane starts the fight (because yeah she does, I even say this and I say she's a bad person, because she is)? But I don't know what you're trying to say here.
There are times when Kenny does do nice things. He saves Lee in Episode 1, he helps Clementine and does genuinely support her throughout Season 2. But he is broken, he even says himself that he shouldn't take care of Clementine in one of the endings for Season 2 (when urging her to go to Wellington).
Yes, I am nothing more than a strawman who hates Kenny and doesn't see any good in him whatsoever. It's not like this is a comparison thread, and I'm comparing him to Lilly constantly, no I just hate him just because for no good reason and I especially never complimented him somewhat, like the above statement. Please, do go on.
I understand Kenny is a broken man, but goodness gracious is he just a downright awful human being
Oh yes, an awful human being yet … moreyou do not look past the way he is and look at the reasons behind his actions because sadly like a lot of people, they judge Kenny on just his bad side and never look at the good side of him.
Yes, I am nothing more than a strawman who hates Kenny and doesn't see any good in him whatsoever. It's not like this is a comparison thread, and I'm comparing him to Lilly constantly, no I just hate him just because for no good reason and I especially never complimented him somewhat, like the above statement. Please, do go on.
Oh trust me i saw that and I didn't call you out on that because i was making the point that in the negative side of how Kenny treats Lee if you don't side with him in the meat locker is all you focused on as you chose not to list all the good things he does if you DID side with him.
There are times when Kenny does do nice things. He saves Lee in Episode 1, he helps Clementine and does genuinely support her throughout Sea… moreson 2. But he is broken, he even says himself that he shouldn't take care of Clementine in one of the endings for Season 2 (when urging her to go to Wellington).
Yes, I am nothing more than a strawman who hates Kenny and doesn't see any good in him whatsoever. It's not like this is a comparison thread, and I'm comparing him to Lilly constantly, no I just hate him just because for no good reason and I especially never complimented him somewhat, like the above statement. Please, do go on.
You're right, I have to disagree with this. One thing is being pissed at one person because that person smashed your dad's face, but leaving you to die because you didn't help killing a dude? Is that what Kenny's defenition of friendship is? 'We're bros as long as you agree with me, otherwise you can die for all I care'.
So is it acceptable that Lilly should leave Lee to die for helping Kenny kill Larry? Despite the fact if he helped him stop Larry from possibly turning, is it ok to let him die for it? Maybe her reasoning to you is acceptable given the events that occurred but it's no different. Look at it this way, Kenny leaves you to die if you don't help him not because you refused to help him kill a man, but because from his perspective you helped put them in danger by risking the fact this guy would come back and kill all of them, leaving his family to be held as permanent hostages or possibly eaten by them eventually. Have you ever considered it from his side? It may seem like his views are not as valid as Lilly's but i disagree. I'm not saying leaving him to die was right because it wasn't, but Lilly leaving Lee to die was just as bad regardless of what happened because if she was able to not have the grief when it happened, she may consider the reasons as to why Kenny did what he did. Hope you can see it from my view anyway
Kenny's reasons are just as valid but to a lot of people they aren't
You're right, I have to disagree with this. One thing is being … morepissed at one person because that person smashed your dad's face, but leaving you to die because you didn't help killing a dude? Is that what Kenny's defenition of friendship is? 'We're bros as long as you agree with me, otherwise you can die for all I care'.
But here's the dilemma. I understand, he is actually a pretty loyal and honestly good friend to have. He does support Lee, saving him numerous times, but what boggles my mind is what you have to agree with him on. I'm sorry, I know Kenny is a good person, but I cannot justify having his goodness shown because I have to agree with him by holding a defenseless woman back whilst he crushes her father's head.
Yes, I am nothing more than a strawman who hates Kenny and doesn't see any good in him whatsoever. It's not like this is a comparison thread… more, and I'm comparing him to Lilly constantly, no I just hate him just because for no good reason and I especially never complimented him somewhat, like the above statement. Please, do go on.
Oh trust me i saw that and I didn't call you out on that because i was making the point that in the negative side of how Kenny treats Lee if you don't side with him in the meat locker is all you focused on as you chose not to list all the good things he does if you DID side with him.
So, all the decent things he's done outweighs the acts of murder that he's committed???
Never once said it did, but if you live in a fucked up apocalyptic world where you may need to do bad things to survive, you do what has to be done, even if it hurts the people you care about somtimes.
Kenny will only do anything for Lee if you help him kill Larry, disagree with Lilly on EVERYTHING, and drop Ben. If you don't side with Kenny, he doesn't help pull the door off of you; instead he stares at you and considers actually LEAVING you. For the Danny situation, he stands there and does absolutely nothing if you don't murder Larry.
As i said above in another reply:
Look at it this way, Kenny leaves you to die if you don't help him not because you refused to help him kill a man, but because from his perspective you helped put them in danger by risking the fact this guy would come back and kill all of them, leaving his family to be held as permanent hostages or possibly eaten by them eventually. Have you ever considered it from his side? It may seem like his views are not as valid as Lilly's but i disagree. I'm not saying leaving him to die was right because it wasn't, but Lilly leaving Lee to die was just as bad regardless of what happened because if she was able to not have the grief when it happened, she may consider the reasons as to why Kenny did what he did. Hope you can see it from my view
That is what i said in the above post.
At least Lilly has an actual reason to be pissed off
And again if you looked at it from Kenny's perspective you would see why he had a reason to be pissed off. It shouldn't be about "who's reason was better" or whatever.
Not to mention, he will refuse to help rescue Clementine in spite of you if you didn't side on him through the whole game.
Again with the negatives but that's fine. But again try and look at it from Kenny's point of view. If you were with a guy (Lee) and he decided to save someone else when your son was in danger, you know, a little boy right? The natural instinct for me would be to help a child first as the adult is normally more capable of looking after themselves. That would annoy me if someone didn't help my son but you know what? That's fine, i'd let that slide and get over that. But then you get to a drugstore with this guy and he sides against you in having your son thrown out as he was deemed a threat. That would be pretty damn hard to forgive. I'd be thinking, jesus this guy is a prick. Then we get trapped in a meat locker, a guy has a heart attack and possibly is already clinically dead, who could come back and kill all of us and this guy again sides against you and makes you feel like you are in even more danger. I know at that point i really wouldn't like the guy for it because he put myself and my family in danger more than once.
The whole thing about not going with him to find Clem rests on that and it's not because he wants to be shitty to Clementine but more so because he felt like getting back at Lee and doesn't want to help a guy who did all those things to make him feel that way about him throughout the journey. He actually says "i hope you find her" if he stays behind with the boat which shows he does care about her. Just not Lee so much. Again all i've said is determinant as we know but people always choose to be negative with him rather than all the good things he does if you chose the opposite path of friendship with him.
Anyway Kenny goes to help Lee find Clementine no matter what in the end when he get's back from Vernon's place not to mention that they pretty much settle their differences by the end of Season 1, especially by Season 2 when he states "i wish Lee was here".
He is no hero, his few decently humane actions don't excuse the fact that he is willing to murder/dispose of anyone who gets in his way. I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly agree that Lilly is a way better person than Kenny.
That's totally fine and you are entitled to your opinion and on everything you said.
......So, all the decent things he's done outweighs the acts of murder that he's committed??? Kenny will only do anything for Lee if you hel… morep him kill Larry, disagree with Lilly on EVERYTHING, and drop Ben. If you don't side with Kenny, he doesn't help pull the door off of you; instead he stares at you and considers actually LEAVING you. For the Danny situation, he stands there and does absolutely nothing if you don't murder Larry. At least Lilly has an actual reason to be pissed off if you don't side with her, because she is the one who's trying to lead the group while taking care of her disabled father that you have the option to murder in cold blood. Not to mention, he will refuse to help rescue Clementine in spite of you if you didn't side on him through the whole game. He is no hero, his few decently humane actions don't excuse the fact that he is willing to murder/dispose of anyone who gets in his way. I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly agree that Lilly is a way better person than Kenny.
Lilly isn't the most innocent character but she was the first character in this game that I personally felt went through the most, at least emotionally.
After having playing Season 2 in full and seeing how far Kenny has fallen in my level of respect for him, I'd pick Lilly in a heartbeat.
… moreI get it, she murdered someone in cold blood and in the heat of the moment over who betrayed their group and caused their mini-community to collapse, and can potentially steal your vehicle to escape after you've take her captive with no idea on what to do with her. But in all honesty, I forgave her a long time ago.
From what I've seen, Lilly was in a position where she's damned if she takes the rational and survivalist route (rationing everyone's food, refusing to let Ben in, not willing to invite a group of strangers in there group that had attracted the attention of walkers, etc.), and she'd damned if she tries to be more moral and considerate (showing disgust over Kenny's approval for using someone as bait to get more supplies, teaching everyone on how to use guns, refusing to steal from an abandone… [view original content]
but I cannot justify having his goodness shown because I have to agree with him by holding a defenseless woman back whilst he crushes her father's head.
As i have said though, it's not about the agreeing to kill him/stop him from turning that's the issue, it's the reasons for why he did. I get what you mean though and trust me I didn't like the scene either. It is what it is though unfortunately.
But here's the dilemma. I understand, he is actually a pretty loyal and honestly good friend to have. He does support Lee, saving him numero… moreus times, but what boggles my mind is what you have to agree with him on. I'm sorry, I know Kenny is a good person, but I cannot justify having his goodness shown because I have to agree with him by holding a defenseless woman back whilst he crushes her father's head.
@HarjKS does have a point. If Clementine attempts to prevent Kenny from approaching Jane, before the fight has broken out, he will push her aside with his elbow, and tell her to get out of his way. It is important to note that he is already infuriated because he believes that Jane let AJ to die. He was out of his mind, but it's there.
You said that Clem tries to stop the fight but "he" (as in Kenny) still carries on which sounds to me as though he was solely to blame for "… morecarrying" the fight on when that's not true because Jane carries on all the same despite Clem telling her to stop too. For example when Clem gets in between them, if she chooses to grab Jane (stopping her basically), Jane just throws Clem to the ground and carries on the fight. What i'm saying is that both of them carried the fight on and not just Kenny as you made it sound like
Interestingly enough, there's an unused Kenny line in episode 2 where he acknowledges that Lee helped save Katjaa. Dunno why they didn't end up using it.
"I want to thank you for getting Katjaa out of that house, but that doesn't change what happened in the meat locker."
Also why we're on the subject, there's an unused line after he kills Larry where he apologizes to Clementine. In fact, there's quite a few unused lines that make Kenny sound like less of a dick that they for some reason decided not to use.
Kenny wasn't there when Lee saved Katjaa by causing Brenda to be devoured, so he couldn't have known that he is in fact responsible for her … moremaking it out alive, regardless of whether he helped Larry or restrained Lilly.
Yes i know and this is something i wish Lee had mentioned to Kenny, "i saved Kat from Brenda" or something to let him know that he saved her life and i would have liked to see how he reacted. However he could have been told during the week time jump but we shouldn't be made to assume something we don't know for certain.
Then guess what? Going back in circles again but i will say it once more. There is only one person in my eyes that "caused" the fight and you know who I think that is. Kenny wouldn't have to "carry" on the fight if it wasn't caused in the first place. However i will say this, that is a good point about her trying to stop it before it breaks out because yes he does carry on and if that is what he/she meant in their post then fair enough. What I thought @HarjKS meant was that Kenny was the only one carrying the fight on when that isn't true at all because Jane pushes Clem out of the way too and doesn't back down even when she has a possible chance to. They were both in the wrong
@HarjKS does have a point. If Clementine attempts to prevent Kenny from approaching Jane, before the fight has broken out, he will push her … moreaside with his elbow, and tell her to get out of his way. It is important to note that he is already infuriated because he believes that Jane let AJ to die. He was out of his mind, but it's there.
Some would argue that Telltale was going the other direction instead by making Kenny appear as a 'wounded warrior' with a tough exterior that hides a soft heart, and who's actions proved that the end justifies the means.
Just that not everyone who played the game agreed with the notion that Kenny was a sympathetic and likable character.
I coincide in that aspect. Once the fight has broken out, Clementine again has the chance to attempt to calm one of them down, and whoever she chooses will push her aside and she will trip onto the snow.
Season Two really is a shitty situation as a whole. Everything would've been better if Kenny had stayed at the lodge with Sarita Walter and Matthew; the cabin group had remained by themselves in the woods of Virginia; Carver weren't able to find Rebecca, and instead went back to Howe's to continue a prosperous community; and Mike and Jane found a way to escape Howe's along with Bonnie.
Then guess what? Going back in circles again but i will say it once more. There is only one person in my eyes that "caused" the fight and yo… moreu know who I think that is. Kenny wouldn't have to "carry" on the fight if it wasn't caused in the first place. However i will say this, that is a good point about her trying to stop it before it breaks out because yes he does carry on and if that is what he/she meant in their post then fair enough. What I thought @HarjKS meant was that Kenny was the only one carrying the fight on when that isn't true at all because Jane pushes Clem out of the way too and doesn't back down even when she has a possible chance to. They were both in the wrong
To me though i feel as though in episode 4 and 5 they changed his character so much in a way that 90% of stuff he did was aggressive and violent. To me they just kept pushing us into hating him and all the stuff Jane and Luke kept saying about what he was becoming. I can see what you mean but i disagree on that. I think the only time people may have had sympathy for him was twice maybe three times in episode 5:
When he apologised to Clem on how he treated her and how he misses his son and that he is gonna help raise AJ right to make up for how he wasn't always there for Duck.
When Clem changed his bandage and he told her his regrets about Alvin and Rebecca.
The Wellington ending or the final conversation they had when he got shot.
But most of the episode focused on his change and acting like a villain. Anyway fair enough on your opinion.
Just that not everyone who played the game agreed with the notion that Kenny was a sympathetic and likable character.
Some would argue that Telltale was going the other direction instead by making Kenny appear as a 'wounded warrior' with a tough exterior tha… moret hides a soft heart, and who's actions proved that the end justifies the means.
Just that not everyone who played the game agreed with the notion that Kenny was a sympathetic and likable character.
Just thought i'd let you know, i've been jotting down lots of notes ready to post a new thread soon about what i would change about certain characters fates (mostly from Season 1) but with big changes to Season 2. Hopefully when i finish it (been writing it for weeks and weeks lol) you are welcome to join the discussion and share your thoughts
I coincide in that aspect. Once the fight has broken out, Clementine again has the chance to attempt to calm one of them down, and whoever s… morehe chooses will push her aside and she will trip onto the snow.
Season Two really is a shitty situation as a whole. Everything would've been better if Kenny had stayed at the lodge with Sarita Walter and Matthew; the cabin group had remained by themselves in the woods of Virginia; Carver weren't able to find Rebecca, and instead went back to Howe's to continue a prosperous community; and Mike and Jane found a way to escape Howe's along with Bonnie.
Thanks for the info @Deltino! I don't know why they didn't include them either! I think it's possibly because they didn't want to make him too nice and wanted to divide the fan base? Lol
Interestingly enough, there's an unused Kenny line in episode 2 where he acknowledges that Lee helped save Katjaa. Dunno why they didn't end… more up using it.
"I want to thank you for getting Katjaa out of that house, but that doesn't change what happened in the meat locker."
Also why we're on the subject, there's an unused line after he kills Larry where he apologizes to Clementine. In fact, there's quite a few unused lines that make Kenny sound like less of a dick that they for some reason decided not to use.
If you ask me, they made him a bit too spiteful when you don't kill Larry. I mean yeah, I can understand him being a bit frustrated with Lee. In his eyes, Lee betrayed him by leaving him to do the deed himself. At least if Lee helps him kill Larry, Kenny doesn't have to suffer the blame and guilt alone. I mean, no one likes that feeling. But they overdid that frustration towards Lee. If you have supported Kenny all the way up to that point-- saved Duck, defended Duck, fed Duck, stood up for Kenny in arguments, sided with him in discussions, showed concern for him and his family-- he still starts acting like you haven't had his back. Episode 3 in particular is a big offender, since all of his behavior in the first half of the episode depends solely on the Larry choice. It doesn't matter if you've been 100% with him up until that choice, if you don't help him kill Larry, he'll leave you under the door, he'll be overly aggressive with you, he'll insult you, and he'll just have an overall pissy attitude with you. All because of that one choice. You can even have the exact opposite happen; if you have fully sided against him on everything leading up to the meat locker, but helped him kill Larry, he'll suddenly start acting like you're his friend.
I could understand him being pissy with you if you've been up and down with him; didn't save Duck, didn't defend his family, didn't side with him in arguments and stuff. But if you've been 99% good for him, siding against him on the Larry choice alone, it just doesn't make much sense. Especially when at the beginning of episode 2, we have Kenny saying "You've been good to me and my family. You saved Duck from those monsters back at the farm, and you stood up to Larry in the drugstore. I won't forget that."
Although, unlike other people, I'm actually okay with the scene where he doesn't save Lee from Danny, because that scene in particular doesn't look like he did it intentionally or out of spite, unlike other scenes. If you look at his expressions when Danny has Lee at gunpoint, Kenny looks scared and unsure what to do. He didn't deliberately leave Lee there out of spite, he just got scared and froze up. After Lilly saves Lee and Kenny comes out of the stall, he looks quite guilty about it, and opens his mouth to say something (likely to apologize) before getting cut off by Kat's screams. Compare that to the scene in episode 3 where he leaves you under the door. He's making a much more conscious and spiteful decision to leave Lee there; just look at his expressions in comparison. So yeah, for that scene in particular, I don't hold that one against him.
I guess the easiest way to sum my feelings up is that they should have made Kenny's actions after the Larry choice more dependent on everything you've done for/against him, and not just the Larry choice. For example, make it so he only gets especially mad at you if you've been against him on most things in the game. Make it so he'll only leave you under the door if you've been shitty to him up to that point. If you've been in 60-70% support of him, he'll have a more neutral attitude towards Lee; maybe a little upset with Lee, but he'll still save Lee if something happens, albeit reluctantly. For example, instead of leaving you under the door or running back to help pull it off you, he'll just cover you instead; he'd still be helping, but he wouldn't be sticking his neck too far out for you. And if you've been in full support of him, keep it the way it is now.
For the most part, I think they did a great job making your relationship with Kenny change based on your choices. But the last quarter of episode 2 after the meat locker, and the first half of episode 3 are where they slipped up. That chunk of the game has his attitude be influenced solely by the Larry choice. The rest of the episodes are fine though, if you ask me.
Thanks for the info @Deltino! I don't know why they didn't include them either! I think it's possibly because they didn't want to make him too nice and wanted to divide the fan base? Lol
To me though i feel as though in episode 4 and 5 they changed his character so much in a way that 90% of stuff he did was aggressive and violent.
Nothing about Kenny was changed, only amplified. Kenny was always an aggressive and violent individual who had a poor control with his emotions, even from way back in Season 1 before he lost his wife and son, starting from when he kills Larry in the meat-locker. He just happened to get worse as episodes went by in Season 2, and he continued to struggle with controlling his emotions.
To me they just kept pushing us into hating him and all the stuff Jane and Luke kept saying about what he was becoming.
Because they were correct, Kenny was starting to get worse in terms of behavior, violence, and impulsiveness, and from what Luke and Jane saw, all they knew about Kenny was that he's liable to be angry, violent, and impulsive. They had no real reason to believe that Kenny wouldn't be a danger to them given his deteriorating mental state, especially when they had barely known him and had no reason to believe that they could be safe around him.
Kenny's increase in aggression and violence was understandable given how he had lost his partner, but he wasn't going to let anyone calm him down in his state, especially with Clementine who he blamed for the death of Sarita regardless of her actions. Luke and Jane did not know Kenny to the extent that Clementine did, and when Kenny would lash out at an old friend who also happens to be a child, it's understandable that they would feel that Kenny is a danger to them.
But most of the episode focused on his change and acting like a villain.
Because he was acting like the villain, or at the very least a mentally unstable individual, from the others' point of view.
Not only was he struggling to keep his emotions and violent tendencies under control, he was willing to drag everyone to Wellington while disregarding everyone's vote against the suicidal plan, and drive everyone to a safe haven even Kenny himself wasn't sure that existed, which could have easily been a death sentence to everyone in the group, including the baby that Kenny latched himself onto as his emotional crutch, because of an incoming blizzard that everyone would have died from hypothermia due to the lack of shelter and visibility.
Even if the group had reluctantly gone along with the plan, and reached Wellington, everyone besides Clementine and the baby would have been turned away, making the entire journey and amount of resources lost a complete waste of time and effort.
No matter how I look at it, Kenny's behavior was completely unjustified, and the writing's attempt to make me sympathize with him feels hollow given how Kenny would always revert to his old ways in a vicious emotional cycle without trying to make amends for his increasingly horrific behavior towards Clementine and the others.
To me though i feel as though in episode 4 and 5 they changed his character so much in a way that 90% of stuff he did was aggressive and vio… morelent. To me they just kept pushing us into hating him and all the stuff Jane and Luke kept saying about what he was becoming. I can see what you mean but i disagree on that. I think the only time people may have had sympathy for him was twice maybe three times in episode 5:
* When he apologised to Clem on how he treated her and how he misses his son and that he is gonna help raise AJ right to make up for how he wasn't always there for Duck.
* When Clem changed his bandage and he told her his regrets about Alvin and Rebecca.
* The Wellington ending or the final conversation they had when he got shot.
But most of the episode focused on his change and acting like a villain. Anyway fair enough on your opinion.
Just that not everyone who played the game agreed with the notion that Kenny was a sympathetic and likable character.
Oh don't we all know it lol
@BetterToSleep
Just thought i'd let you know, i've been jotting down lots of notes ready to post a new thread soon about what i would cha… morenge about certain characters fates (mostly from Season 1) but with big changes to Season 2. Hopefully when i finish it (been writing it for weeks and weeks lol) you are welcome to join the discussion and share your thoughts
It's not perfect i agree and i like what you said about how it would have been good to have him help you under the door 60/70% of the time depending if you supported him previously. I think that the way he treated Lee after the meat locker shouldn't have all rested on that choice
If you ask me, they made him a bit too spiteful when you don't kill Larry. I mean yeah, I can understand him being a bit frustrated with Lee… more. In his eyes, Lee betrayed him by leaving him to do the deed himself. At least if Lee helps him kill Larry, Kenny doesn't have to suffer the blame and guilt alone. I mean, no one likes that feeling. But they overdid that frustration towards Lee. If you have supported Kenny all the way up to that point-- saved Duck, defended Duck, fed Duck, stood up for Kenny in arguments, sided with him in discussions, showed concern for him and his family-- he still starts acting like you haven't had his back. Episode 3 in particular is a big offender, since all of his behavior in the first half of the episode depends solely on the Larry choice. It doesn't matter if you've been 100% with him up until that choice, if you don't help him kill Larry, he'll leave you under the door, he'll be overly aggressive with you, he'll… [view original content]
I decided not to read all that because as usual it's completely negative in every single way and i'm assuming you have said the same stuff you have always said about how you feel about Kenny. You seem to only ever look at one side of his character. I don't think i've ever heard you once say anything good about him actually. Please don't take that the wrong way, you just know i get annoyed by it to some degree.
Whenever i post my opinion, it's like i get a 10,000 word essay from you in response lol, calm down man! I was merely stating what i thought the writers were trying to make us feel about him in the last 2 episodes, for us to start hating him. Like i said i disagree that the later episodes were trying to get us to sympathise with Kenny, i highly think the opposite that they were trying to get us to hate him which I didn't fall into that trap like others have. Obviously those such as yourself hated him long before that which is fine but anyway, dude calm down with the hate lol.
To me though i feel as though in episode 4 and 5 they changed his character so much in a way that 90% of stuff he did was aggressive and vio… morelent.
Nothing about Kenny was changed, only amplified. Kenny was always an aggressive and violent individual who had a poor control with his emotions, even from way back in Season 1 before he lost his wife and son, starting from when he kills Larry in the meat-locker. He just happened to get worse as episodes went by in Season 2, and he continued to struggle with controlling his emotions.
To me they just kept pushing us into hating him and all the stuff Jane and Luke kept saying about what he was becoming.
Because they were correct, Kenny was starting to get worse in terms of behavior, violence, and impulsiveness, and from what Luke and Jane saw, all they knew about Kenny was that he's liable to be angry, violent, and impulsive. They had no real reason to believe that Kenny wouldn't … [view original content]
Look at it this way, Kenny leaves you to die if you don't help him not because you refused to help him kill a man, but because from his perspective you helped put them in danger by risking the fact this guy would come back and kill all of them, leaving his family to be held as permanent hostages or possibly eaten by them eventually. Have you ever considered it from his side?
More that you'd think actually. If Kenny leaves Lee to die because Lee suposedly endangered his family then why doesn't he remember that Lee was also the person who saved his family in the first place? Why doesn't Kenny take that into account? He also leaves you to die not once but twice (episode 3 and episode 4 and possibly episode 5) days after the incident which makes it even worse when compared to Lilly...
... Try considering things from her side. Two dudes just killed your father right in front of your face! Without even trying to save him! And it wasn't like weeks ago, it was 10 minutes ago! Are you saying that you really can't see why she leaves Lee (one of her father murderers)? I think it is completely understandable why she did it: you killed her father right in front of her face 10 minutes ago!
There's a big diffrence between Kenny's reasons and Lilly's but I understand why you may not consider this prespective since, afterall, you agreed to kill Larry in your canon.
You're right, I have to disagree with this. One thing is being pissed at one person because that person smashed your dad's face, but leaving… more you to die because you didn't help killing a dude? Is that what Kenny's defenition of friendship is? 'We're bros as long as you agree with me, otherwise you can die for all I care'.
So is it acceptable that Lilly should leave Lee to die for helping Kenny kill Larry? Despite the fact if he helped him stop Larry from possibly turning, is it ok to let him die for it? Maybe her reasoning to you is acceptable given the events that occurred but it's no different. Look at it this way, Kenny leaves you to die if you don't help him not because you refused to help him kill a man, but because from his perspective you helped put them in danger by risking the fact this guy would come back and kill all of them, leaving his family to be held as permanent hostages or possibly eaten by them eventually. Have you e… [view original content]
Can I just say, bravo to Telltale for this. I love how characters like Lilly and Kenny (even in Season 2) can be so complex that years later we are sat here, debating their actions, interpreting their every move and trying to deliver which one we think is the better person (morally). It's really awesome actually.
I merely responded to your discussion in a civil manner, there's nothing for me to be calm about.
There are positive things I find in Kenny character, such as his honesty, his devotion to his family, and his sense of humor. It's just unfortunate that I find that his good qualities tends to be overshadowed by his negative side, and the story really wants to bring his negative side more often to the point where it's his defining quality.
You are going to find fans of Telltale's The Walking Dead who don't share the same positive opinion about Kenny, and just like you, they have the right to express their opinions on the forum. That's just how it is.
I decided not to read all that because as usual it's completely negative in every single way and i'm assuming you have said the same stuff y… moreou have always said about how you feel about Kenny. You seem to only ever look at one side of his character. I don't think i've ever heard you once say anything good about him actually. Please don't take that the wrong way, you just know i get annoyed by it to some degree.
Whenever i post my opinion, it's like i get a 10,000 word essay from you in response lol, calm down man! I was merely stating what i thought the writers were trying to make us feel about him in the last 2 episodes, for us to start hating him. Like i said i disagree that the later episodes were trying to get us to sympathise with Kenny, i highly think the opposite that they were trying to get us to hate him which I didn't fall into that trap like others have. Obviously those such as yourself hated him long before that which is fine but anyway, dude calm down with the hate lol.
More that you'd think actually. If Kenny leaves Lee to die because Lee suposedly endangered his family then why doesn't he remember that Lee was also the person who saved his family in the first place? Why doesn't Kenny take that into account?
It's not just for endangering his family, it was also himself. If Kenny had died then he couldn't have got to his family and so he obviously felt very strongly about it.
There was actually a deleted audio where he thanks Lee for getting Katjaa out of the house and saving Duck apparently but I suppose you'll say "that doesn't count" right?
He also leaves you to die not once but twice (episode 3 and episode 4 and possibly episode 5) days after the incident which makes it even worse when compared to Lilly...
Can you please tell me where in episode 4 and 5 Kenny leaves you to die? I either have a very short memory or you've got this wrong because I cannot think anywhere in episode 4 and 5 where he left Lee to die as well?
Try considering things from her side
This is what annoys me, you assume that i haven't but because I haven't mentioned it recently, you think i don't. I certainly have considered her side. Of course i know why she left Lee to die, of course i get that but it wasn't right to let him die even if he was in the wrong because it's still effectively murder (and before you say it, Kenny was just as in the wrong so don't think i'm being biased please) but i also said that if she somehow didn't suffer from grief (if that was ever possible in life) from her father's death, maybe she would have not left Lee to die if she had considered the reasons why they did what they did. In fact if Lilly steals the RV before she goes she even says "part of me understands why you did what you did", so i guess she did consider things afterwards but in that moment she was in grief.
Anyway, you have really misunderstood me because you think i'm one sided over this. I did not like the scene at all and i felt very sorry for her and 9 times out of 10 I wouldn't agree to it but i did on this occasion because i imagined myself in that place, trapped in a room and could possibly die, and i would have been shit scared, and also thought about everyone else's safety. Plus I wasn't Larry's biggest fan, i mean he did leave me to die, was horrible every single time he spoke and if i had saved his life a hundred times he still wouldn't have saved mine.
There's a big diffrence between Kenny's reasons and Lilly's but I understand why you may not consider this prespective since, after all, you agreed to kill Larry in your canon.
Dude I could say the exact same thing about you man! I understand why you may not consider the other perspective because trying to save Larry was your canon. You feel Kenny's reasons aren't as valid as her's. That's fine but i'll disagree every time. They are just as you said, different, but one in my eyes is not superior over the other
Look at it this way, Kenny leaves you to die if you don't help him not because you refused to help him kill a man, but because from his pers… morepective you helped put them in danger by risking the fact this guy would come back and kill all of them, leaving his family to be held as permanent hostages or possibly eaten by them eventually. Have you ever considered it from his side?
More that you'd think actually. If Kenny leaves Lee to die because Lee suposedly endangered his family then why doesn't he remember that Lee was also the person who saved his family in the first place? Why doesn't Kenny take that into account? He also leaves you to die not once but twice (episode 3 and episode 4 and possibly episode 5) days after the incident which makes it even worse when compared to Lilly...
... Try considering things from her side. Two dudes just killed your father right in front of your face! Without even trying to save him! And it wasn't l… [view original content]
Ok, it's just sometimes it's like you go off on a rant about his negative qualities to the point you are trying to sway mine and others opinions. I know that's not your intention but that's how it comes across
I merely responded to your discussion in a civil manner, there's nothing for me to be calm about.
There are positive things I find in Ken… moreny character, such as his honesty, his devotion to his family, and his sense of humor. It's just unfortunate that I find that his good qualities tends to be overshadowed by his negative side, and the story really wants to bring his negative side more often to the point where it's his defining quality.
You are going to find fans of Telltale's The Walking Dead who don't share the same positive opinion about Kenny, and just like you, they have the right to express their opinions on the forum. That's just how it is.
Comments
No, it doesn't have to turn into an argument!
This is already an argument, but what is wrong with arguments anyways? Isn't that one of the things this forums are made for? As long as we keep it civil this is just another harmless argument!
You are looking for the term "discussion," @IronWoodLover. I don't see anyone throwing in insults nor one-liners—the composition of 98% of YouTube comments.
Well one of the defenitions of argument is 'a discussion involving different points of view'. Anyway, the term is not the point here. I was trying to enforce your idea that an argument/diacussion/battle of opinions/whatever is not a bad thing when done right and Dan should not restrain himself of getting into one and putting his opinions out there because it is, in fact, harmless.
Once, I tried share my feelings about Jane in one youtube comment that was condemning the youtuber for choosing Jane over Kenny... It didn't go that well. Youtube does not have many people willing to have their opinions challenged, unfortunately. Those people will often get agressive and unpolite, which sucks because a big part of everything's fandom only hangs out on youtube.
I think that hinges on giving it to Clementine and Duck, maybe Kenny as well. I've gotten that line to trigger on a Doug playthrough.
Crap....
Looks like my headcanon just became less probable. ^~^
Kenny says "is your girl still mad at me (or you if Lee stole) for stealing from the station wagon last week, i don't recall it being 2 weeks but anyway, in regards to the forgiveness, i feel that by the end of season 1 and definitely in season 2 he has forgiven him. I guess you can look at his grudge as being extreme but some people sadly hold them longer than others.
Well again it's a case of that it could have happened. No he didn't lose a family member but he was annoyed at the prospect of it possibly happening due to Lee's actions. Anyway it's the determinant topic again when it comes down to it.
Sometimes we all make it sound like this was a canon choice lol
Thats the problem, it doesn't always stay civil sadly
Ehhh, I don't really think it was out-of-character. I think it was just one of those heat of the moment kind of things. I doubt she meant anything personal when she said that, she just lost her cool due to the stress of the situation, much like Lilly herself did. Between Lilly pointing the finger at her, everyone yelling at each other, the tension getting so thick you could cut it with a knife, she just couldn't take it and momentarily snapped. Sensory overload and all that.
Not everyone takes too kindly to people accusing them of stuff, even if snapping back at the accuser isn't the best course of action. And not everyone reacts too well in the middle of a heated argument. Take a minute and think about how many fights you've seen, be it videos or in real life, and how many of them could have been avoided if one person didn't egg the other one on, or said something stupid that finally pissed the other person off enough to throw a punch. I've seen more than enough fights break out because one person said something idiotic that they shouldn't have in the heat of the moment.
That is an interesting point you bring up, Dan.
From Kenny's perspective, it would be fairly reasonable to think that, if Lee already gambled with his family's life—and even Lilly's—by failing to put Larry down, which in turn would've ended up with Katjaa and Duck as permanent hostages of the St. John's, it could certainly happen again if it came to that choice in the future. Maybe Kenny wasn't bothered by Lee not siding with him as much as he was by Lee's attitude of not thinking about Katjaa and Duck's fates, of course, only in his eyes.
Kenny wasn't there when Lee saved Katjaa by causing Brenda to be devoured, so he couldn't have known that he is in fact responsible for her making it out alive, regardless of whether he helped Larry or restrained Lilly.
She sided with larry. That's a very big factor in me preferring kenny over her. Though you don't know much about her and it would be nice if you could know more about her and the only way that's possible is if she's in season 3 and she stays with you for at least an episode. If anything i'd prefer if she was in season 3 because of that and because imo her character either wasn't fully developed, or there could be more to her character than what you've seen in season 1.
I have no idea what you mean by this statement. My argument was Kenny started the fight for no real viable reason other than he thinks Jane murdered AJ because she didn't totally like him earlier. Are you trying to say Jane starts the fight (because yeah she does, I even say this and I say she's a bad person, because she is)? But I don't know what you're trying to say here.
Yes i know and this is something i wish Lee had mentioned to Kenny, "i saved Kat from Brenda" or something to let him know that he saved her life and i would have liked to see how he reacted. However he could have been told during the week time jump but we shouldn't be made to assume something we don't know for certain.
You said that Clem tries to stop the fight but "he" (as in Kenny) still carries on which sounds to me as though he was solely to blame for "carrying" the fight on when that's not true because Jane carries on all the same despite Clem telling her to stop too. For example when Clem gets in between them, if she chooses to grab Jane (stopping her basically), Jane just throws Clem to the ground and carries on the fight. What i'm saying is that both of them carried the fight on and not just Kenny as you made it sound like
Yes, I am nothing more than a strawman who hates Kenny and doesn't see any good in him whatsoever. It's not like this is a comparison thread, and I'm comparing him to Lilly constantly, no I just hate him just because for no good reason and I especially never complimented him somewhat, like the above statement. Please, do go on.
Oh trust me i saw that and I didn't call you out on that because i was making the point that in the negative side of how Kenny treats Lee if you don't side with him in the meat locker is all you focused on as you chose not to list all the good things he does if you DID side with him.
So is it acceptable that Lilly should leave Lee to die for helping Kenny kill Larry? Despite the fact if he helped him stop Larry from possibly turning, is it ok to let him die for it? Maybe her reasoning to you is acceptable given the events that occurred but it's no different. Look at it this way, Kenny leaves you to die if you don't help him not because you refused to help him kill a man, but because from his perspective you helped put them in danger by risking the fact this guy would come back and kill all of them, leaving his family to be held as permanent hostages or possibly eaten by them eventually. Have you ever considered it from his side? It may seem like his views are not as valid as Lilly's but i disagree. I'm not saying leaving him to die was right because it wasn't, but Lilly leaving Lee to die was just as bad regardless of what happened because if she was able to not have the grief when it happened, she may consider the reasons as to why Kenny did what he did. Hope you can see it from my view anyway
But here's the dilemma. I understand, he is actually a pretty loyal and honestly good friend to have. He does support Lee, saving him numerous times, but what boggles my mind is what you have to agree with him on. I'm sorry, I know Kenny is a good person, but I cannot justify having his goodness shown because I have to agree with him by holding a defenseless woman back whilst he crushes her father's head.
Never once said it did, but if you live in a fucked up apocalyptic world where you may need to do bad things to survive, you do what has to be done, even if it hurts the people you care about somtimes.
As i said above in another reply:
Look at it this way, Kenny leaves you to die if you don't help him not because you refused to help him kill a man, but because from his perspective you helped put them in danger by risking the fact this guy would come back and kill all of them, leaving his family to be held as permanent hostages or possibly eaten by them eventually. Have you ever considered it from his side? It may seem like his views are not as valid as Lilly's but i disagree. I'm not saying leaving him to die was right because it wasn't, but Lilly leaving Lee to die was just as bad regardless of what happened because if she was able to not have the grief when it happened, she may consider the reasons as to why Kenny did what he did. Hope you can see it from my view
That is what i said in the above post.
And again if you looked at it from Kenny's perspective you would see why he had a reason to be pissed off. It shouldn't be about "who's reason was better" or whatever.
Again with the negatives but that's fine. But again try and look at it from Kenny's point of view. If you were with a guy (Lee) and he decided to save someone else when your son was in danger, you know, a little boy right? The natural instinct for me would be to help a child first as the adult is normally more capable of looking after themselves. That would annoy me if someone didn't help my son but you know what? That's fine, i'd let that slide and get over that. But then you get to a drugstore with this guy and he sides against you in having your son thrown out as he was deemed a threat. That would be pretty damn hard to forgive. I'd be thinking, jesus this guy is a prick. Then we get trapped in a meat locker, a guy has a heart attack and possibly is already clinically dead, who could come back and kill all of us and this guy again sides against you and makes you feel like you are in even more danger. I know at that point i really wouldn't like the guy for it because he put myself and my family in danger more than once.
The whole thing about not going with him to find Clem rests on that and it's not because he wants to be shitty to Clementine but more so because he felt like getting back at Lee and doesn't want to help a guy who did all those things to make him feel that way about him throughout the journey. He actually says "i hope you find her" if he stays behind with the boat which shows he does care about her. Just not Lee so much. Again all i've said is determinant as we know but people always choose to be negative with him rather than all the good things he does if you chose the opposite path of friendship with him.
Anyway Kenny goes to help Lee find Clementine no matter what in the end when he get's back from Vernon's place not to mention that they pretty much settle their differences by the end of Season 1, especially by Season 2 when he states "i wish Lee was here".
That's totally fine and you are entitled to your opinion and on everything you said.
Lilly isn't the most innocent character but she was the first character in this game that I personally felt went through the most, at least emotionally.
As i have said though, it's not about the agreeing to kill him/stop him from turning that's the issue, it's the reasons for why he did. I get what you mean though and trust me I didn't like the scene either. It is what it is though unfortunately.
@HarjKS does have a point. If Clementine attempts to prevent Kenny from approaching Jane, before the fight has broken out, he will push her aside with his elbow, and tell her to get out of his way. It is important to note that he is already infuriated because he believes that Jane let AJ to die. He was out of his mind, but it's there.
Interestingly enough, there's an unused Kenny line in episode 2 where he acknowledges that Lee helped save Katjaa. Dunno why they didn't end up using it.
"I want to thank you for getting Katjaa out of that house, but that doesn't change what happened in the meat locker."
Also why we're on the subject, there's an unused line after he kills Larry where he apologizes to Clementine. In fact, there's quite a few unused lines that make Kenny sound like less of a dick that they for some reason decided not to use.
Then guess what? Going back in circles again but i will say it once more. There is only one person in my eyes that "caused" the fight and you know who I think that is. Kenny wouldn't have to "carry" on the fight if it wasn't caused in the first place. However i will say this, that is a good point about her trying to stop it before it breaks out because yes he does carry on and if that is what he/she meant in their post then fair enough. What I thought @HarjKS meant was that Kenny was the only one carrying the fight on when that isn't true at all because Jane pushes Clem out of the way too and doesn't back down even when she has a possible chance to. They were both in the wrong
That's because telltale deliberately made him villainous in season 2 but not all of us follows the herd of sheep they tried to round up lol
Some would argue that Telltale was going the other direction instead by making Kenny appear as a 'wounded warrior' with a tough exterior that hides a soft heart, and who's actions proved that the end justifies the means.
Just that not everyone who played the game agreed with the notion that Kenny was a sympathetic and likable character.
I coincide in that aspect. Once the fight has broken out, Clementine again has the chance to attempt to calm one of them down, and whoever she chooses will push her aside and she will trip onto the snow.
Season Two really is a shitty situation as a whole. Everything would've been better if Kenny had stayed at the lodge with Sarita Walter and Matthew; the cabin group had remained by themselves in the woods of Virginia; Carver weren't able to find Rebecca, and instead went back to Howe's to continue a prosperous community; and Mike and Jane found a way to escape Howe's along with Bonnie.
To me though i feel as though in episode 4 and 5 they changed his character so much in a way that 90% of stuff he did was aggressive and violent. To me they just kept pushing us into hating him and all the stuff Jane and Luke kept saying about what he was becoming. I can see what you mean but i disagree on that. I think the only time people may have had sympathy for him was twice maybe three times in episode 5:
When he apologised to Clem on how he treated her and how he misses his son and that he is gonna help raise AJ right to make up for how he wasn't always there for Duck.
When Clem changed his bandage and he told her his regrets about Alvin and Rebecca.
The Wellington ending or the final conversation they had when he got shot.
But most of the episode focused on his change and acting like a villain. Anyway fair enough on your opinion.
Oh don't we all know it lol
@BetterToSleep
Just thought i'd let you know, i've been jotting down lots of notes ready to post a new thread soon about what i would change about certain characters fates (mostly from Season 1) but with big changes to Season 2. Hopefully when i finish it (been writing it for weeks and weeks lol) you are welcome to join the discussion and share your thoughts
Thanks for the info @Deltino! I don't know why they didn't include them either! I think it's possibly because they didn't want to make him too nice and wanted to divide the fan base? Lol
If you ask me, they made him a bit too spiteful when you don't kill Larry. I mean yeah, I can understand him being a bit frustrated with Lee. In his eyes, Lee betrayed him by leaving him to do the deed himself. At least if Lee helps him kill Larry, Kenny doesn't have to suffer the blame and guilt alone. I mean, no one likes that feeling. But they overdid that frustration towards Lee. If you have supported Kenny all the way up to that point-- saved Duck, defended Duck, fed Duck, stood up for Kenny in arguments, sided with him in discussions, showed concern for him and his family-- he still starts acting like you haven't had his back. Episode 3 in particular is a big offender, since all of his behavior in the first half of the episode depends solely on the Larry choice. It doesn't matter if you've been 100% with him up until that choice, if you don't help him kill Larry, he'll leave you under the door, he'll be overly aggressive with you, he'll insult you, and he'll just have an overall pissy attitude with you. All because of that one choice. You can even have the exact opposite happen; if you have fully sided against him on everything leading up to the meat locker, but helped him kill Larry, he'll suddenly start acting like you're his friend.
I could understand him being pissy with you if you've been up and down with him; didn't save Duck, didn't defend his family, didn't side with him in arguments and stuff. But if you've been 99% good for him, siding against him on the Larry choice alone, it just doesn't make much sense. Especially when at the beginning of episode 2, we have Kenny saying "You've been good to me and my family. You saved Duck from those monsters back at the farm, and you stood up to Larry in the drugstore. I won't forget that."
Although, unlike other people, I'm actually okay with the scene where he doesn't save Lee from Danny, because that scene in particular doesn't look like he did it intentionally or out of spite, unlike other scenes. If you look at his expressions when Danny has Lee at gunpoint, Kenny looks scared and unsure what to do. He didn't deliberately leave Lee there out of spite, he just got scared and froze up. After Lilly saves Lee and Kenny comes out of the stall, he looks quite guilty about it, and opens his mouth to say something (likely to apologize) before getting cut off by Kat's screams. Compare that to the scene in episode 3 where he leaves you under the door. He's making a much more conscious and spiteful decision to leave Lee there; just look at his expressions in comparison. So yeah, for that scene in particular, I don't hold that one against him.
I guess the easiest way to sum my feelings up is that they should have made Kenny's actions after the Larry choice more dependent on everything you've done for/against him, and not just the Larry choice. For example, make it so he only gets especially mad at you if you've been against him on most things in the game. Make it so he'll only leave you under the door if you've been shitty to him up to that point. If you've been in 60-70% support of him, he'll have a more neutral attitude towards Lee; maybe a little upset with Lee, but he'll still save Lee if something happens, albeit reluctantly. For example, instead of leaving you under the door or running back to help pull it off you, he'll just cover you instead; he'd still be helping, but he wouldn't be sticking his neck too far out for you. And if you've been in full support of him, keep it the way it is now.
For the most part, I think they did a great job making your relationship with Kenny change based on your choices. But the last quarter of episode 2 after the meat locker, and the first half of episode 3 are where they slipped up. That chunk of the game has his attitude be influenced solely by the Larry choice. The rest of the episodes are fine though, if you ask me.
Nothing about Kenny was changed, only amplified. Kenny was always an aggressive and violent individual who had a poor control with his emotions, even from way back in Season 1 before he lost his wife and son, starting from when he kills Larry in the meat-locker. He just happened to get worse as episodes went by in Season 2, and he continued to struggle with controlling his emotions.
Because they were correct, Kenny was starting to get worse in terms of behavior, violence, and impulsiveness, and from what Luke and Jane saw, all they knew about Kenny was that he's liable to be angry, violent, and impulsive. They had no real reason to believe that Kenny wouldn't be a danger to them given his deteriorating mental state, especially when they had barely known him and had no reason to believe that they could be safe around him.
Kenny's increase in aggression and violence was understandable given how he had lost his partner, but he wasn't going to let anyone calm him down in his state, especially with Clementine who he blamed for the death of Sarita regardless of her actions. Luke and Jane did not know Kenny to the extent that Clementine did, and when Kenny would lash out at an old friend who also happens to be a child, it's understandable that they would feel that Kenny is a danger to them.
Because he was acting like the villain, or at the very least a mentally unstable individual, from the others' point of view.
Not only was he struggling to keep his emotions and violent tendencies under control, he was willing to drag everyone to Wellington while disregarding everyone's vote against the suicidal plan, and drive everyone to a safe haven even Kenny himself wasn't sure that existed, which could have easily been a death sentence to everyone in the group, including the baby that Kenny latched himself onto as his emotional crutch, because of an incoming blizzard that everyone would have died from hypothermia due to the lack of shelter and visibility.
Even if the group had reluctantly gone along with the plan, and reached Wellington, everyone besides Clementine and the baby would have been turned away, making the entire journey and amount of resources lost a complete waste of time and effort.
No matter how I look at it, Kenny's behavior was completely unjustified, and the writing's attempt to make me sympathize with him feels hollow given how Kenny would always revert to his old ways in a vicious emotional cycle without trying to make amends for his increasingly horrific behavior towards Clementine and the others.
Thanks! I look forward to checking it out soon.
It's not perfect i agree and i like what you said about how it would have been good to have him help you under the door 60/70% of the time depending if you supported him previously. I think that the way he treated Lee after the meat locker shouldn't have all rested on that choice
I decided not to read all that because as usual it's completely negative in every single way and i'm assuming you have said the same stuff you have always said about how you feel about Kenny. You seem to only ever look at one side of his character. I don't think i've ever heard you once say anything good about him actually. Please don't take that the wrong way, you just know i get annoyed by it to some degree.
Whenever i post my opinion, it's like i get a 10,000 word essay from you in response lol, calm down man! I was merely stating what i thought the writers were trying to make us feel about him in the last 2 episodes, for us to start hating him. Like i said i disagree that the later episodes were trying to get us to sympathise with Kenny, i highly think the opposite that they were trying to get us to hate him which I didn't fall into that trap like others have. Obviously those such as yourself hated him long before that which is fine but anyway, dude calm down with the hate lol.
More that you'd think actually. If Kenny leaves Lee to die because Lee suposedly endangered his family then why doesn't he remember that Lee was also the person who saved his family in the first place? Why doesn't Kenny take that into account? He also leaves you to die not once but twice (episode 3 and episode 4 and possibly episode 5) days after the incident which makes it even worse when compared to Lilly...
... Try considering things from her side. Two dudes just killed your father right in front of your face! Without even trying to save him! And it wasn't like weeks ago, it was 10 minutes ago! Are you saying that you really can't see why she leaves Lee (one of her father murderers)? I think it is completely understandable why she did it: you killed her father right in front of her face 10 minutes ago!
There's a big diffrence between Kenny's reasons and Lilly's but I understand why you may not consider this prespective since, afterall, you agreed to kill Larry in your canon.
Can I just say, bravo to Telltale for this. I love how characters like Lilly and Kenny (even in Season 2) can be so complex that years later we are sat here, debating their actions, interpreting their every move and trying to deliver which one we think is the better person (morally). It's really awesome actually.
I merely responded to your discussion in a civil manner, there's nothing for me to be calm about.
There are positive things I find in Kenny character, such as his honesty, his devotion to his family, and his sense of humor. It's just unfortunate that I find that his good qualities tends to be overshadowed by his negative side, and the story really wants to bring his negative side more often to the point where it's his defining quality.
You are going to find fans of Telltale's The Walking Dead who don't share the same positive opinion about Kenny, and just like you, they have the right to express their opinions on the forum. That's just how it is.
It's not just for endangering his family, it was also himself. If Kenny had died then he couldn't have got to his family and so he obviously felt very strongly about it.
There was actually a deleted audio where he thanks Lee for getting Katjaa out of the house and saving Duck apparently but I suppose you'll say "that doesn't count" right?
Can you please tell me where in episode 4 and 5 Kenny leaves you to die? I either have a very short memory or you've got this wrong because I cannot think anywhere in episode 4 and 5 where he left Lee to die as well?
This is what annoys me, you assume that i haven't but because I haven't mentioned it recently, you think i don't. I certainly have considered her side. Of course i know why she left Lee to die, of course i get that but it wasn't right to let him die even if he was in the wrong because it's still effectively murder (and before you say it, Kenny was just as in the wrong so don't think i'm being biased please) but i also said that if she somehow didn't suffer from grief (if that was ever possible in life) from her father's death, maybe she would have not left Lee to die if she had considered the reasons why they did what they did. In fact if Lilly steals the RV before she goes she even says "part of me understands why you did what you did", so i guess she did consider things afterwards but in that moment she was in grief.
Anyway, you have really misunderstood me because you think i'm one sided over this. I did not like the scene at all and i felt very sorry for her and 9 times out of 10 I wouldn't agree to it but i did on this occasion because i imagined myself in that place, trapped in a room and could possibly die, and i would have been shit scared, and also thought about everyone else's safety. Plus I wasn't Larry's biggest fan, i mean he did leave me to die, was horrible every single time he spoke and if i had saved his life a hundred times he still wouldn't have saved mine.
Dude I could say the exact same thing about you man! I understand why you may not consider the other perspective because trying to save Larry was your canon. You feel Kenny's reasons aren't as valid as her's. That's fine but i'll disagree every time. They are just as you said, different, but one in my eyes is not superior over the other
Ok, it's just sometimes it's like you go off on a rant about his negative qualities to the point you are trying to sway mine and others opinions. I know that's not your intention but that's how it comes across