Kenny, as while he does do some questionable things, he never killed someone who had done nothing to deserve it.
* He wanted to le… moret Beatrice be devoured so that he and Lee could get some extra supplies. And she surely didn't deserve it.
* He advocated to kill Larry without even waiting for him to either wake up or reanimate, when they could've held a salt lick over his head and another one on his chest so that he didn't stand up, had he been a walker. It is understandable though, since it was a life or death situation, which doesn't justify it, since he did carry out the murder.
* He attempted to kill Ben Paul and, after failing, and calming down to a degree, then tried to convince Lee of letting him die, when Ben himself said that he was truly sorry for the chain of events that he untied while having good intentions. Again, understandable but not justified. And also immoral.
* Johnny's death is pretty self-explanatory. He didn't… [view original content]
Ok the Larry situation...I personally brought someone back who had a heart attack like Larry....now as an aside, I dunno how they would have taken care of Larry afterwards...but I am sure that was not something that Kenny considered as he is not the type of thinker who thinks that far.
Having looked at my original comment, deserve wasn't quite the right word to use, but I stand by my original point. Kenny's never directly c… moreaused the death of an innocent person without any real motivation or reasoning, unlike Lily. Beatrice was bitten, so there was no way to help her. Kenny's idea, while cruel, made sense and it was the best way to gather the supplies. The Larry situation was, in my opinion, justifiable. Larry had died and would have turned into a walker, risking the lives of everyone in the meat locker. Would it have made more sense to do what you suggested? Probably, but I as I said Kenny wasn't thinking things completely through. Attempting to kill Ben, the person responsible for his family's deaths and others, is justified. Ben's stupid actions resulted in people's deaths and he even allowed Carly, someone who stood up for him, to die because he was too much of a coward to admit the truth. Johnny and Natasha were members… [view original content]
Ok the Larry situation...I personally brought someone back who had a heart attack like Larry....now as an aside, I dunno how they would have… more taken care of Larry afterwards...but I am sure that was not something that Kenny considered as he is not the type of thinker who thinks that far.
he just a downright awful human being.
Yet the woman who murders an innocent person in cold blood without a shred of evidence to back up her claims, isn't? Fair enough so...
Pretty much, although I do think describing Kenny as an awful person is a bit harsh, especially when put into comparison with Lily. But hey, folks obviously have very different opinions on both characters.
Beatrice's name is known from the name of her character model. Also, because of the first choice of "Long Road Ahead," which goes along the lines of "did you put Beatrice out of her misery?"
Johnny, again, because of the name of his character model, and because Bonnie adresses him as Johnny when she tells him to cover the large window at the ski lodge.
Natasha is called like that by her brother several times throughout "No Going Back." However, her character model is labeled as Maud, which is also a Russian name. I suppose that people took up on calling her Natasha since that is what Arvo used.
I agree on that. I'd rather use more specific terms such as hot-headed, reckless, family-oriented, unconfident, instigating, predictable, selfish to most people while selfless to some others, to describe him, rather than plain awful.
Telltale has done a good job at making him feel like a real person.
Pretty much, although I do think describing Kenny as an awful person is a bit harsh, especially when put into comparison with Lily. But hey, folks obviously have very different opinions on both characters.
Beatrice's name is known from the name of her character model. Also, because of the first choice of "Long Road Ahead," which goes along the … morelines of "did you put Beatrice out of her misery?"
Johnny, again, because of the name of his character model, and because Bonnie adresses him as Johnny when she tells him to cover the large window at the ski lodge.
Natasha is called like that by her brother several times throughout "No Going Back." However, her character model is labeled as Maud, which is also a Russian name. I suppose that people took up on calling her Natasha since that is what Arvo used.
Yeah what she did sucked, but it seems like people are so easy to just forgive people's crimes because of character bias.
Lee murdered a man pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipped on Kenny too), and he's not awful because well Jane had it coming or some other reason.
Lilly murders an innocent person in cold blood (which by the way, in one situation she was right - if you save Doug, she attempts to shoot Ben just Doug gets in the way. It sucks and she is still held accountable, but let's be honest, there was definitely every reason to suspect Ben), but oh no she's awful.
Kenny causes so many issues for the group through his own actions and shows little to no remorse for them. He's a toxic and broken man who relied on Clementine, not loving her out of wishes to protect her and love her as who she is, but as a way to enable the father-child relationship he so longed for after the death of Duck. (I still like him, don't blame me), but I way prefer Lilly. She was a leader, she was resourceful, and she lost everything.
Also fun fact: She was abused by Larry, but still stuck by him and tried her very best to help him, when he clearly didn't deserve it. Yeah, sure, she murdered Carley/Doug and I can't necessarily forgive her for that. But let's think about this. Out of the group, who liked Lilly? Who actually genuinely cared for her? Aside from Lee (and even then this is determinant), and maybe Clementine.
Sure, I get it, there are also implications Kenny was abused, but those are just that, implications.
Ben, Carley/Doug, Kenny, not even Katjaa seemed to have a semblance of goodwill to her, and sure I don't think they downright hated her, they all most likely had varying opinions. But none of them seemed to really like her as a person.
When you're trapped, isolated, you just lost your one lifeline and no one else seems to like you, you're now on the run after barely surviving a bandit/walker attack and someone in your group is a traitor, yeah no I can understand why she snapped. I'm not saying what she did was good, far from it, but you at least have a good reason why. And Kenny, also has a good reason why, but I'm tired of the whole "Well Kenny is absolved from his actions, and Lilly isn't just because-" When they both did terrible things due to their mental wellbeing.
It's just that, as a whole, Kenny did worse things, didn't necessarily care for Clementine as a person and almost ruins everything for everyone.
Who is the one who suggests they should go to Savannah for a boat? Kenny.
Who is the one who wants to take from the random car they found in Episode 2? Kenny.
Who is the one who wants to murder Larry because apparently, you can't just wait until they try and resuscitate him and wants to end him then and there in front of both Lilly and Clementine? Kenny (fun fact, he even says "You're worthless, Lee" if you try to help Larry).
I despise the fact that disagreeing with him, causes him to go out of his way to just do the most horrible things. So let's say you disagree with him on Larry and try to help Larry. He kills Larry, and you get out and try to find the others.
Who lets Lee almost die when Danny is about to shoot him? Kenny (Lilly comes to help him however).
Who actually saves Katjaa and Duck from the St Johns? Lee and Carley/Doug (not Kenny, who gets shot - sucks for him but still).
Who considers leaving Lee in Macon when he's being attacked by walkers? Kenny. (A door of walkers falls on Lee, and as Lee calls for help, Kenny turns back and considers leaving him before Lee wrestles the walkers off him and then Kenny shoots at them).
Who saves Katjaa and Duck again, albeit Duck being bit? Kenny.
And I get it, I do. There are times when Kenny does do nice things. He saves Lee in Episode 1, he helps Clementine and does genuinely support her throughout Season 2. But he is broken, he even says himself that he shouldn't take care of Clementine in one of the endings for Season 2 (when urging her to go to Wellington). But, Lilly was a good leader (and yes I know she can also potentially let Lee die...but that's because Lee literally helped slaughter her father in front of her, so yeah what she does is scummy but she has a far better reason than "oh my god Lee, how dare you disagree with me?").
he just a downright awful human being.
Yet the woman who murders an innocent person in cold blood without a shred of evidence to back up her claims, isn't? Fair enough so...
Lee murdered a man pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Well, I mean you do have to look at his motivation behind the actions. I'm not justifying what Lee done and of course it was wrong, but the man did have an affair with his wife, whom Lee obliviously loved. It was a great betrayal and in the instance, Lee lashed out and killed him, though I doubt he had intentionally set out to do that. Either way, Lee redeems himself throughout the course of the story, so I'll never hold it against him. Lilly, on the other hand, does not redeem herself for what she does to Carly/Doug and actually grows to be worse, as she steals the RV if you show her some decency no matter what happens. Even Kenny in S1, redeems himself with how he treats Ben by later going on to save him from Walkers.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipped on Kenny too), and he's not awful because well Jane had it coming or some other reason.
Well, in that instance, both parties can be blamed for the fight and neither were in the right (didn't intent for that to rhyme), but you can't deny that Jane set about to CAUSE the fight and is partly more responsible, in my opinion, for it's outcome. Not to mention her putting a child's life at risk, simply to prove her point, which is all very callous.
Kenny causes so many issues for the group through his own actions and shows little to no remorse for them. He's a toxic and broken man who relied on Clementine, not loving her out of wishes to protect her and love her as who she is, but as a way to enable the father-child relationship he so longed for after the death of Duck. (I still like him, don't blame me), but I way prefer Lilly. She was a leader, she was resourceful, and she lost everything.
To say Kenny doesn't show remorse for his actions is again, a bit harsh. Granted, I can't deny he's done awful things which he doesn't always feel remorse for, but you can see he does feel regret for many of the things he did, such as seen with his treatment of Ben, who he goes on to risk his own life for to save. Also Kenny does genuinely love Clementine for who she is and it's seen in Season 2 that he'd do anything to protect her, not just becomes he longs for his lost relationship with Duck, but because Clem's one of the last good things in his life. And again, as I've said to others, most of Kenny's actions have good intentions behind them.
Also fun fact: She was abused by Larry, but still stuck by him and tried her very best to help him, when he clearly didn't deserve it. Yeah, sure, she murdered Carley/Doug and I can't necessarily forgive her for that. But let's think about this. Out of the group, who liked Lilly? Who actually genuinely cared for her? Aside from Lee (and even then this is determinant), and maybe Clementine.
Well, I don't think anyone truly disliked Lilly, besides Kenny and possibly Carley. I mean, I never saw anyone express any genuine love for her either, but I certainly wouldn't say many people, besides determinately Lee and Kenny's family, were all to fond of Kenny either. The group was flawed, to say the least. Also where did you hear that Larry abused Lilly? I never saw any implications of it, but I could of easily missed something, so I'm interested to know where this info came from.
Ben, Carley/Doug, Kenny, not even Katjaa seemed to have a semblance of goodwill to her, and sure I don't think they downright hated her, they all most likely had varying opinions. But none of them seemed to really like her as a person.
Again, not many people expressed much like for Kenny either, minus Katjaa, Duck and possibly Lee, so I wouldn't say Lilly was the outsider in the group you're portraying. And I mean, she did have her father with her, who did genuinely love her, although if he abused her, that's an entire different story and could mean something else.
When you're trapped, isolated, you just lost your one lifeline and no one else seems to like you, you're now on the run after barely surviving a bandit/walker attack and someone in your group is a traitor, yeah no I can understand why she snapped. I'm not saying what she did was good, far from it, but you at least have a good reason why. And Kenny, also has a good reason why, but I'm tired of the whole "Well Kenny is absolved from his actions, and Lilly isn't just because-" When they both did terrible things due to their mental wellbeing.
I can agree with most of that, but it's just a lot easier for many people, myself included, to understand Kenny's terrible decisions than that of Lilly's. Lilly killed a character, who for a lot was a favourite character, for no strong motive. Was she doing it to protect the group? Not really, as it was clear to see how she was handling the situation was just making things worse and was solving nothing. What she does to Carley, who she murdered not because she thought Carley was responsible for the deal with the bandits, but because of what Carley says, is evident of that. When Kenny killed Larry, who may have been dead, he did it because he believed it was for the best and couldn't risk a Walker, especially one as large as Larry, to be trapped inside the locker with them.
Who is the one who suggests they should go to Savannah for a boat? Kenny.
The boat, in my opinion, was the best bet, so can't blame him for that.
Who is the one who wants to take from the random car they found in Episode 2? Kenny.
Yes, but I didn't see very many people disagree with him. I know that Lilly makes a comment about it being wrong, but she still takes part in the robbing, alongside the rest of the group, so they're all to blame in that instance.
Who lets Lee almost die when Danny is about to shoot him? Kenny (Lilly comes to help him however).
Yes, but when you're about to be killed by Andy with the electric fence, Lilly will stand there with her gun and do nothing if you agreed with Kenny in the locker. I mean, I can understand why she'd do that and don't hold it against her, but to argue that Kenny's awful for not helping you if you don't agree with him, whilst Lilly will do the same, is hypocritical.
Who considers leaving Lee in Macon when he's being attacked by walkers? Kenny. (A door of walkers falls on Lee, and as Lee calls for help, Kenny turns back and considers leaving him before Lee wrestles the walkers off him and then Kenny shoots at them).
If Lilly were in the same situation with Lee and their relationship were poor, she'd do the same thing. And still, he does still shoot at them, so he does at least change his mind as the situation escalates.
And I get it, I do. There are times when Kenny does do nice things. He saves Lee in Episode 1, he helps Clementine and does genuinely support her throughout Season 2. But he is broken, he even says himself that he shouldn't take care of Clementine in one of the endings for Season 2 (when urging her to go to Wellington). But, Lilly was a good leader (and yes I know she can also potentially let Lee die...but that's because Lee literally helped slaughter her father in front of her, so yeah what she does is scummy but she has a far better reason than "oh my god Lee, how dare you disagree with me?").
Yeah, I can understand all of that, but when you do build up a decent relationship with Kenny, he's loyal no matter what happens. Sure, he's still a selfish prick at times, but what person isn't? What counts is when you do need his help, he'll offer it as long as he sees you as a friend. Lilly, on the other hand, who murders either Carley or Doug, steals the RV, leaving two children and everyone in the group stranded, left to die. Even if your relationship with Lilly was good and you agree to go with her, she still ditches you and leaves everyone. No matter how much someone may hate Kenny, he'd never ditch the group like that, especially when there's children.
Yeah what she did sucked, but it seems like people are so easy to just forgive people's crimes because of character bias.
Lee murdered a … moreman pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipped on Kenny too), and he's not awful because well Jane had it coming or some other reason.
Lilly murders an innocent person in cold blood (which by the way, in one situation she was right - if you save Doug, she attempts to shoot Ben just Doug gets in the way. It sucks and she is still held accountable, but let's be honest, there was definitely every reason to suspect Ben), but oh no she's awful.
Kenny causes so many issues for the group through his own actions and shows little to no remorse for them. He's a toxic and broken man who relied on Clementine, not loving her out of wishes to protect her and l… [view original content]
Yeah what she did sucked, but it seems like people are so easy to just forgive people's crimes because of character bias.
Lee murdered a … moreman pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipped on Kenny too), and he's not awful because well Jane had it coming or some other reason.
Lilly murders an innocent person in cold blood (which by the way, in one situation she was right - if you save Doug, she attempts to shoot Ben just Doug gets in the way. It sucks and she is still held accountable, but let's be honest, there was definitely every reason to suspect Ben), but oh no she's awful.
Kenny causes so many issues for the group through his own actions and shows little to no remorse for them. He's a toxic and broken man who relied on Clementine, not loving her out of wishes to protect her and l… [view original content]
I was a big fan of Kenny before. After playing a lot of Telltale games, I got bored of TWD but that doesn't mean I don't like Kenny. It has been 2 years since TWD Season 2 ended. I did choose to stay with him at the end and of course I will begin Season 3 with him.
…I honestly thought that Kenny was one of your favorites.
Did you change your mind recently, did I misinterpret something, or have I been in an alternate forum for the past six months?
After having playing Season 2 in full and seeing how far Kenny has fallen in my level of respect for him, I'd pick Lilly in a heartbeat.
I get it, she murdered someone in cold blood and in the heat of the moment over who betrayed their group and caused their mini-community to collapse, and can potentially steal your vehicle to escape after you've take her captive with no idea on what to do with her. But in all honesty, I forgave her a long time ago.
From what I've seen, Lilly was in a position where she's damned if she takes the rational and survivalist route (rationing everyone's food, refusing to let Ben in, not willing to invite a group of strangers in there group that had attracted the attention of walkers, etc.), and she'd damned if she tries to be more moral and considerate (showing disgust over Kenny's approval for using someone as bait to get more supplies, teaching everyone on how to use guns, refusing to steal from an abandoned vehicle, etc.). No matter what ideas she had or choices she had made, it seemed that Lilly was never going to be appreciated either way, and yet she still tried her best to watch out for her group, and this was before her breakdown.
Before her breakdown, she wasn't necessarily the most pleasant person to be with, but she had her group's well-being in mind the entire time. Lilly still let Lee and Kenny's group in her own group in spite of the bad first impressions in the store, and didn't threaten them to leave for nearly risking everyone being killed by walkers. She reluctantly allowed Ben inside in spite of stating that their food supply was reduced to just snacks, and didn't threaten to have him kicked out either. She showed concern with the group's well-being and safety during their visit to the St. Johns family, and was one of the first to suggest to leave before disaster had struck.
Then there's the meat locker incident, where Lilly only turns on you if you actively help Kenny kill her father, and her reluctance to save you from Andy is far more understandable than Kenny, who froze up and stayed hidden while watching you about to be shot to death by Danny, all because you refused to help him kill an unconscious man in front of his daughter. I understand that there was no saving Larry, but there's a big difference between ensuring that Lilly had fully understood this and accepted her father's inevitable demise, and then there's abruptly killing her father right in front of her as soon as he collapsed while she's trying to resuscitate him.
And finally there's the moment when the group's community is destroyed due to Ben's actions. Before her breakdown, Lilly was more content with speaking to each member and asking them if they were the ones who had smuggled her belongings to the bandits for unknown reasons. While Ben meant well with trying to buy off the bandits for protection, not only did he chose not to reveal to everyone that he smuggled medicine to the bandits, he willingly stole from Lilly, who was already in an emotional breakdown over her father's death, which is pretty messed up. After the bandits attacked, Lilly fought back and did her best to protect her group while watching how the community she and her group worked hard to build had become overrun, and she was forced to leave everything behind.
Looking at her character and her actions in full, I felt pity for her reputation and loneliness, I admired her leadership skills in spite of never having volunteered, and I felt disappointed at her last moments before she left the story, but I'm still willing to put it all in the past.
So yeah, after seeing Kenny's actions in Season 2, I'd definitely choose Lilly.
Ben, Carley/Doug, Kenny, not even Katjaa seemed to have a semblance of goodwill to her, and sure I don't think they downright hated her, they all most likely had varying opinions. But none of them seemed to really like her as a person.
That isn't fair, though.
Katjaa stays silent during most of the arguments at the motel, when she could be driven to defend her husband. Kat decides not to intervene when Lilly calls him out about going to Savannah, and she even attempts to calm Kenny down when he is about to go off on Lilly. That didn't work.
After Kenny and Katjaa discuss the need to carry guns, and Lee approaches them, she will state that she believes that the group can't turn on each other any more than they've had. Katjaa also seems horrified by the fact that Larry was killed just before Lilly. That possibly made her look at Lilly with another eyes, but we didn't see this, since the bandits attacked soon after.
Yeah what she did sucked, but it seems like people are so easy to just forgive people's crimes because of character bias.
Lee murdered a … moreman pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipped on Kenny too), and he's not awful because well Jane had it coming or some other reason.
Lilly murders an innocent person in cold blood (which by the way, in one situation she was right - if you save Doug, she attempts to shoot Ben just Doug gets in the way. It sucks and she is still held accountable, but let's be honest, there was definitely every reason to suspect Ben), but oh no she's awful.
Kenny causes so many issues for the group through his own actions and shows little to no remorse for them. He's a toxic and broken man who relied on Clementine, not loving her out of wishes to protect her and l… [view original content]
Your relationship with both characters depends basically in the choice of trying to save Larry or killing him. But exploring and thinking about the consecuences of the desicion, I notices somethin:
If you help killing Larry, Lilly will hate you because you killed her father (even if he was already dead)
If you tryed to save Larry, Kenny will hate you because you didn't side with him.
WTF?!
I understand if Kenny's a little upset about it. I mean, he thought he was the only one that could see the danger. But C'MON, MAN! He still hates you after so long just because you didn't agree with something he did? WTF?
In the other hand, it makes perfect sense for Lilly to be angry, you just killed the only family she had!
I heard around that one of the reasons of so many stress that eventually caused her to snap was that, after her father's death, she didn't only feel depressed, but also a little relieved, since she didn't have to suffer Larry's abuse, and she was horrified by this thought.
Carley was the straw that broke the camel's back. How would you feel if you just lost the only family you had, and you have the feeling of relieve torturing you and making you feel like a monster, and almost everyone in your group hates you, and you find out that there's a traitor among those people, a group of bandits breaks in your home and destrois it, and now that you lost everything you had, you kill the person you think that you think caused all the disaster AND the one that was treating you like shit(even if she was inocent)/try to kill the person you think caused the disaster and killed an innocent man by accident and no one seems to feel any empathy for you???
What was exactly what Carley told to her?
You think you're some tough bitch, don't you? Like nothing can hurt you. But, you're just a scared little girl. Get the fuck over it. Take a page from Lee's book and try helping somebody for once.
WTF?! Where the hell did that come from?! they didn't even interact before that moment! And where's the fucking empathy? Is like Carley had never lost anyone. That's the problem with people that had lives too happy.
So, fuck Kenny (not... literally...), Lilly's better.
Yeah what she did sucked, but it seems like people are so easy to just forgive people's crimes because of character bias.
Lee murdered a … moreman pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipped on Kenny too), and he's not awful because well Jane had it coming or some other reason.
Lilly murders an innocent person in cold blood (which by the way, in one situation she was right - if you save Doug, she attempts to shoot Ben just Doug gets in the way. It sucks and she is still held accountable, but let's be honest, there was definitely every reason to suspect Ben), but oh no she's awful.
Kenny causes so many issues for the group through his own actions and shows little to no remorse for them. He's a toxic and broken man who relied on Clementine, not loving her out of wishes to protect her and l… [view original content]
Yes, but when you're about to be killed by Andy with the electric fence, Lilly will stand there with her gun and do nothing if you agreed with Kenny in the locker. I mean, I can understand why she'd do that and don't hold it against her, but to argue that Kenny's awful for not helping you if you don't agree with him, whilst Lilly will do the same, is hypocritical.
Not really, though.
Kenny refuses to help you because didn't help him to crash Larry's head to prevent reanimation weeks ago. One would think that after that much time he would've realized that there were better ways to execute the same plan, as I've pointed out before—first place a salt lick on his abdomen, while Lee performs chest compressions, and Lilly and Kenny stand beside Larry's head, lifting a second salt lick over his head. If he reanimates, drop the salt lick. If he turns out to be alive, toss the salt lick sideways. I'm not asking for Kenny to think about this all while Larry's possible corpse is lying on the floors. I'm asking for Kenny to realize that the way he executed the prevention of reanimation was plain terrible, and to realize why Lee didn't side with him on it.
Lilly refuses to help you because you forcefully restrained her so that Kenny could crush the head of her father, and this happens twenty minutes after Larry's death. She is in the middle of shock and grief. Lilly's anger is far more understandable than Kenny's.
Lee murdered a man pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Well, I mean you do have to look at his motivati… moreon behind the actions. I'm not justifying what Lee done and of course it was wrong, but the man did have an affair with his wife, whom Lee obliviously loved. It was a great betrayal and in the instance, Lee lashed out and killed him, though I doubt he had intentionally set out to do that. Either way, Lee redeems himself throughout the course of the story, so I'll never hold it against him. Lilly, on the other hand, does not redeem herself for what she does to Carly/Doug and actually grows to be worse, as she steals the RV if you show her some decency no matter what happens. Even Kenny in S1, redeems himself with how he treats Ben by later going on to save him from Walkers.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipp… [view original content]
Well, I mean you do have to look at his motivation behind the actions. I'm not justifying what Lee done and of course it was wrong, but the man did have an affair with his wife, whom Lee obliviously loved. It was a great betrayal and in the instance, Lee lashed out and killed him, though I doubt he had intentionally set out to do that. Either way, Lee redeems himself throughout the course of the story, so I'll never hold it against him. Lilly, on the other hand, does not redeem herself for what she does to Carly/Doug and actually grows to be worse, as she steals the RV if you show her some decency no matter what happens. Even Kenny in S1, redeems himself with how he treats Ben by later going on to save him from Walkers.
You have a fair point about Lilly stealing the RV and how Lee does redeem himself (I did try and help her, yet she stole the RV anyway when I let her on), but at the same time we don't really know what's going through Lilly's mind. By now, the group, even Katjaa, Clementine and Duck would straight up dislike her or not want to be anywhere near her. She is no longer a leader, but a hostage, and well I agree she does have to be, no one, not even I, would trust her with a gun now unless absolutely necessary.
But for her, I imagine the only reason she stole it because she fears she is going to die. When she asks Lee if he wants to join her with Clementine, I think for a moment she was being genuine but seeing as how everyone turned against her, she put two and two together, believing Lee would never leave and was going to tell the group (who after this would most definitely murder her in her mind), and so she escaped. Yeah, what she did was horrific and I cannot believe it, it honestly made me consider hating her, and I loved Lilly as a character, but from certain interpretations, I can see why she did it, still don't like it.
Also, let's remember, Kenny hasn't been good in a hostage situation either. When Clementine and everyone else is hostage, unless you directly run up to Carver to try and stop him from killing Alvin, even when Rebecca and everyone else cries out to Kenny, he'll still shoot and end up leading Carver to murder Alvin (he also is the cause for Walter's death this way, though I will let him off this because no one would suspect Carver would straight up shoot one of them in cold blood like that).
Later on 'In Harm's Way' (hehe), even when everyone is telling him to stay calm/sit down, even if Clementine asks him to, he'll snap at her for suggesting to wait for Luke (though he does apologize which is nice of him). But still his behaviour wasn't totally great, which goes to show how being placed in a potential hostage situation is going to mess with your mind.
Let's also not forget how in another hostage situation (there's like 5 in The Walking Dead - including the one from 400 Days with Shel), Lilly saves the entire group who are all held at gunpoint from bandits when she shoots one of them.
Well, in that instance, both parties can be blamed for the fight and neither were in the right (didn't intent for that to rhyme), but you can't deny that Jane set about to CAUSE the fight and is partly more responsible, in my opinion, for it's outcome. Not to mention her putting a child's life at risk, simply to prove her point, which is all very callous.
Okay, but look at the fight from Kenny's perspective. He doesn't know all of that. He simply sees Jane and thinks "Yeah she killed the baby", he never saw the body or any sign of AJ. Jane claims it was an accident and at the time, I believed her. She is freezing, moving slowly with a baby in her hand and walkers coming after her (with also no gun or weapon besides her dagger, and she can't even see that well in the blizzard).
Her tripping, and AJ falling out of her hands, before her having to defend herself from walkers but can't protect AJ is totally possible. So, from Kenny's perspective, he had no right to just accuse her of leaving AJ down on purpose because logically it makes no sense, why would Jane murder AJ for no reason? It's not like the baby is weighing her down, and even if it was crying, it's not like putting the crying baby down will eliminate all the walkers from seeing Jane.
Yeah, Jane is a bad person, but from Kenny's perspective, he just tried to murder a woman for no real reason, blinded by his anger. Jane was right in one thing, Kenny is dangerous. Even when Clementine tries her best to stop the fight, he still carries on.
Well, I don't think anyone truly disliked Lilly, besides Kenny and possibly Carley. I mean, I never saw anyone express any genuine love for her either, but I certainly wouldn't say many people, besides determinately Lee and Kenny's family, were all to fond of Kenny either. The group was flawed, to say the least. Also where did you hear that Larry abused Lilly? I never saw any implications of it, but I could of easily missed something, so I'm interested to know where this info came from.
I'll try and find it, but basically for the audition description for Lilly's VA, it gives information about Lilly and it mentions how Larry was a "shit dad" and how he did abuse her, I'm not too sure if it ever came up in-game but like I said I'll try to find it. They weren't too fond of Kenny but Kenny still had a family, and that's really all he needed. He didn't neccesarily care about what Carley, Lee, Ben or even Clementine thought of him, so long as he had a family because that is what matters to him the most.
I can agree with most of that, but it's just a lot easier for many people, myself included, to understand Kenny's terrible decisions than that of Lilly's. Lilly killed a character, who for a lot was a favourite character, for no strong motive. Was she doing it to protect the group? Not really, as it was clear to see how she was handling the situation was just making things worse and was solving nothing. What she does to Carley, who she murdered not because she thought Carley was responsible for the deal with the bandits, but because of what Carley says, is evident of that. When Kenny killed Larry, who may have been dead, he did it because he believed it was for the best and couldn't risk a Walker, especially one as large as Larry, to be trapped inside the locker with them.
Honestly, this is a fair point but I just think she snapped. Like when you see her face straight after Carley drops to the floor, you just see the look of shock on it, as she realizes "Oh my god, what have I done?" I think she was tempted by blind rage (which Kenny has been tempted by also...a lot). In her mind, it was to protect the group, in an odd way. A way in which none of us will really understand - maybe Kenny was doing this too with Jane, thinking he was protecting Clementine because Jane was apparently a "child murderer". But I guess we'll never really know or understand, like I said, most of this is down to interpretation, how you personally interpret the characters.
The boat, in my opinion, was the best bet, so can't blame him for that.
That's fair, I thought so too but by Episode 2, it had been a couple months and most boats would be gone by now. I thought we'd be getting to Savannah in about a week's time, but honestly that never happened. So I never saw why we should still do it, even by Episode 5.
Yes, but I didn't see very many people disagree with him. I know that Lilly makes a comment about it being wrong, but she still takes part in the robbing, alongside the rest of the group, so they're all to blame in that instance.
Even still, (in my game Lee disagreed because wtf), he is still partly to blame. Also, if you look back at the scene, Lilly doesn't take anything. Even when you agree you should take the supplies, she stands to the side, holding the rifle and doesn't move an inch.
Sure the group is still to blame, but that means everyone but Lilly and Clementine (with Lee being determinant).
Yes, but when you're about to be killed by Andy with the electric fence, Lilly will stand there with her gun and do nothing if you agreed with Kenny in the locker. I mean, I can understand why she'd do that and don't hold it against her, but to argue that Kenny's awful for not helping you if you don't agree with him, whilst Lilly will do the same, is hypocritical.
I understand that and I did comment on this. I said, that in these types of situations, Lilly at least has a viable reason. If someone murdered Clementine like Lilly or Ben, fuck no am I going to help you, you are on your own. I know it's not right but Lilly's reasoning for not helping Lee far surpasses Kenny's reason of "Oh, well you disagree with me." And before you say "Well you're putting Kenny in danger, and he can't save his family by not helping to kill Larry, that's why he's mad."
Just remember, Lee saves Katjaa and Duck (alongside either Carley or Doug), so that should have redeemed him. But apparently not.
If Lilly were in the same situation with Lee and their relationship were poor, she'd do the same thing. And still, he does still shoot at them, so he does at least change his mind as the situation escalates.
There's no real proof of that besides interpretation and even still, Lee helped murder her father, yeah it's still wrong but she would have a much better reason than Kenny for this. Also, Kenny doesn't change his mind (imo). He only shoots, because the walkers are now breaking through now that they have stopped heading to Lee from under the door and Lee backs up, so now walkers are coming towards Lee and now that means they are coming towards Kenny.
Yeah, I can understand all of that, but when you do build up a decent relationship with Kenny, he's loyal no matter what happens. Sure, he's still a selfish prick at times, but what person isn't? What counts is when you do need his help, he'll offer it as long as he sees you as a friend. Lilly, on the other hand, who murders either Carley or Doug, steals the RV, leaving two children and everyone in the group stranded, left to die. Even if your relationship with Lilly was good and you agree to go with her, she still ditches you and leaves everyone. No matter how much someone may hate Kenny, he'd never ditch the group like that, especially when there's children.
I know, and I know he's a good person. And I know Lilly fucked things up. But in this case, I can't agree with him. I simply can't murder an innocent man just so I can stay on his good side, that's not right. (Also just a mental note, I realized, Kenny does have a moral corruption, I mean I remember he wanted Lee to let another innocent woman die just so they had extra time to get some supplies from the drug store).
Lilly ditching everyone does suck, but from my interpretation I understood why she did it. If she does came though in my game to Clementine in Season 3, there will be hell to pay.
Lee murdered a man pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Well, I mean you do have to look at his motivati… moreon behind the actions. I'm not justifying what Lee done and of course it was wrong, but the man did have an affair with his wife, whom Lee obliviously loved. It was a great betrayal and in the instance, Lee lashed out and killed him, though I doubt he had intentionally set out to do that. Either way, Lee redeems himself throughout the course of the story, so I'll never hold it against him. Lilly, on the other hand, does not redeem herself for what she does to Carly/Doug and actually grows to be worse, as she steals the RV if you show her some decency no matter what happens. Even Kenny in S1, redeems himself with how he treats Ben by later going on to save him from Walkers.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipp… [view original content]
While discussing this with @OneWayNoWay a while ago—I've referenced this like three times today, so please excuse me—we agreed that there seemed to be some pre-established rivalry between Lilly and Carley. At some point, Lilly says that it isn't as easy for Lee to let somebody die as much as it is for Kenny. The camera will focus on Carley glaring at Lilly shorty after this, so the two might've had some friction over Lee during the two-week time-skip.
In addition:
Your relationship with both characters depends basically in the choice of trying to save Larry or killing him. But exploring… more and thinking about the consecuences of the desicion, I notices somethin:
* If you help killing Larry, Lilly will hate you because you killed her father (even if he was already dead)
* If you tryed to save Larry, Kenny will hate you because you didn't side with him.
* WTF?!
I understand if Kenny's a little upset about it. I mean, he thought he was the only one that could see the danger. But C'MON, MAN! He still hates you after so long just because you didn't agree with something he did? WTF?
In the other hand, it makes perfect sense for Lilly to be angry, you just killed the only family she had!
I heard around that one of the reasons of so many stress that eventually caused her to snap was that, after her father's death, she didn't only feel depressed, but also a little relieved, … [view original content]
True but she never says anything positive about Lilly, and I imagine she is the type of person who wouldn't necessarily agree with her but at the same time doesn't hate her or anything. Like I said, they all had "varying opinions" of Lilly, whether they were more so positive or negative (neither liking/disliking due to her actions, the controversy surrounding her, her role as team leader, etc.)
Ben, Carley/Doug, Kenny, not even Katjaa seemed to have a semblance of goodwill to her, and sure I don't think they downright hated her, the… morey all most likely had varying opinions. But none of them seemed to really like her as a person.
That isn't fair, though.
Katjaa stays silent during most of the arguments at the motel, when she could be driven to defend her husband. Kat decides not to intervene when Lilly calls him out about going to Savannah, and she even attempts to calm Kenny down when he is about to go off on Lilly. That didn't work.
After Kenny and Katjaa discuss the need to carry guns, and Lee approaches them, she will state that she believes that the group can't turn on each other any more than they've had. Katjaa also seems horrified by the fact that Larry was killed just before Lilly. That possibly made her look at Lilly with another eyes, but we didn't see this, since the bandits attacked soon after.
While discussing this with @OneWayNoWay a while ago—I've referenced this like three times today, so please excuse me—we agreed that there se… moreemed to be some pre-established rivalry between Lilly and Carley. At some point, Lilly says that it isn't as easy for Lee to let somebody die as much as it is for Kenny. The camera will focus on Carley glaring at Lilly shorty after this, so the two might've had some friction over Lee during the two-week time-skip.
You think you're some tough bitch, don't you? Like nothing can hurt you. But, you're just a scared little girl. Get the fuck over it. Take a page from Lee's book and try helping somebody for once.
Looking back at it now, there was no real reason for Carley to say this to Lilly. Not to mention that this line from Carley also makes her appear unnecessarily spiteful in a play-through where she knows that Lee had helped Kenny kill Lilly's father.
One comment also pointed out how out-of-character Carley appeared at the time:
"Carley worries that the combined stress of the last several weeks is nearly sending Lilly over the edge. She notes that she respects Lilly and her efforts to take on the responsibilities of being the group's leader, and she asks Lee to help Lilly out in whatever ways he can. Less than an hour of gameplay later, she inexplicably forgets this entire conversation and proceeds to explode at Lilly just after the latter has clearly cracked from the stress."
I mean, I get that Carley herself was under stress over being accused of betraying the group by Lilly, but I can't say that she didn't bring her own death on herself for insulting an already mentally unbalanced individual who were at their last nerve with everything that has happened.
In addition:
Your relationship with both characters depends basically in the choice of trying to save Larry or killing him. But exploring… more and thinking about the consecuences of the desicion, I notices somethin:
* If you help killing Larry, Lilly will hate you because you killed her father (even if he was already dead)
* If you tryed to save Larry, Kenny will hate you because you didn't side with him.
* WTF?!
I understand if Kenny's a little upset about it. I mean, he thought he was the only one that could see the danger. But C'MON, MAN! He still hates you after so long just because you didn't agree with something he did? WTF?
In the other hand, it makes perfect sense for Lilly to be angry, you just killed the only family she had!
I heard around that one of the reasons of so many stress that eventually caused her to snap was that, after her father's death, she didn't only feel depressed, but also a little relieved, … [view original content]
Also, if you disagree with Lilly and give food to Carley, Lilly will say that Lee is playing favourites.
I definitely think that Lilly had a thing for Lee.
You think you're some tough bitch, don't you? Like nothing can hurt you. But, you're just a scared little girl. Get the fuck over it. Take a… more page from Lee's book and try helping somebody for once.
Looking back at it now, there was no real reason for Carley to say this to Lilly. Not to mention that this line from Carley also makes her appear unnecessarily spiteful in a play-through where she knows that Lee had helped Kenny kill Lilly's father.
One comment also pointed out how out-of-character Carley appeared at the time:
"Carley worries that the combined stress of the last several weeks is nearly sending Lilly over the edge. She notes that she respects Lilly and her efforts to take on the responsibilities of being the group's leader, and she asks Lee to help Lilly out in whatever ways he can. Less than an hour of gameplay later, she inexplicably forgets this entire conversation and proceeds to explode at Lilly just after the latt… [view original content]
I wouldn't say that Carley is an asshole, but her last words to Lilly didn't really do her any favors, not to mention having died defending the guilty suspect all along ended up making her look rather foolish in hindsight.
Carley was stupid. Lilly was about to kick her out of the group and she doesn't have any better idea to suddenly become an asshole.
Oh, wait! She was already an asshole before!
After having playing Season 2 in full and seeing how far Kenny has fallen in my level of respect for him, I'd pick Lilly in a heartbeat.
… moreI get it, she murdered someone in cold blood and in the heat of the moment over who betrayed their group and caused their mini-community to collapse, and can potentially steal your vehicle to escape after you've take her captive with no idea on what to do with her. But in all honesty, I forgave her a long time ago.
From what I've seen, Lilly was in a position where she's damned if she takes the rational and survivalist route (rationing everyone's food, refusing to let Ben in, not willing to invite a group of strangers in there group that had attracted the attention of walkers, etc.), and she'd damned if she tries to be more moral and considerate (showing disgust over Kenny's approval for using someone as bait to get more supplies, teaching everyone on how to use guns, refusing to steal from an abandone… [view original content]
But for her, I imagine the only reason she stole it because she fears she is going to die. When she asks Lee if he wants to join her with Clementine, I think for a moment she was being genuine but seeing as how everyone turned against her, she put two and two together, believing Lee would never leave and was going to tell the group (who after this would most definitely murder her in her mind), and so she escaped. Yeah, what she did was horrific and I cannot believe it, it honestly made me consider hating her, and I loved Lilly as a character, but from certain interpretations, I can see why she did it, still don't like it.
Okay, I can understand that. She was paranoid, fearing for her own life, and so, fled with the RV when she had the chance. While I can understand the line of thinking she may have had, it's still very selfish to leave two children, alongside a group of people, who she originally saw herself as leader of, stranded without any way to leave and little chance of survival.
Also, let's remember, Kenny hasn't been good in a hostage situation either. When Clementine and everyone else is hostage, unless you directly run up to Carver to try and stop him from killing Alvin, even when Rebecca and everyone else cries out to Kenny, he'll still shoot and end up leading Carver to murder Alvin (he also is the cause for Walter's death this way, though I will let him off this because no one would suspect Carver would straight up shoot one of them in cold blood like that).
I'll acknowledge that Kenny's actions in the situation were stupid, but once again, in his own mind, he was helping. He was trying to eliminate the threat before they could do more damage, but it didn't work. Also if Clem decides to go look for Kenny, she has the option to talk him out of trying to kill Carver, which is what leads to Alvin's death. This shows that when confronted with common sense, at times, Kenny will try to think things through if it comes from someone he cares for. Not always, but I do think he tries.
Later on 'In Harm's Way' (hehe), even when everyone is telling him to stay calm/sit down, even if Clementine asks him to, he'll snap at her for suggesting to wait for Luke (though he does apologize which is nice of him). But still his behaviour wasn't totally great, which goes to show how being placed in a potential hostage situation is going to mess with your mind.
It's a known fact Kenny has problems controlling his anger and can be quite rash, but he does often end up regretting it, as evident when he apologized to Clem. I'll admit his behaviour was reckless and probably would have cause more problems than anything else, but his intentions were again good. He was trying to get them out of the van and stage a quick escape. And yes, I agree that anyone wouldn't react great in a hostage type situation, as seen when Kenny kills Larry in another similar incident when he was trapped. He didn't think things completely through and as @BetterToSleep pointed out, there was a better way to handle the situation, but he did truly believe it was for the best. Whether it was, is up for interpretation.
Okay, but look at the fight from Kenny's perspective. He doesn't know all of that. He simply sees Jane and thinks "Yeah she killed the baby", he never saw the body or any sign of AJ. Jane claims it was an accident and at the time, I believed her.
I personally think Kenny had his reasons to think the worse of Jane at the time. She had previously left the group and ever since her arrival, was always very distant and less trustworthy than the others. Granted, I know she did come back to help them in the Russian standoff, even saving Kenny's life, but she only did that because of Clem, which was oblivious. There's also the facture of the argument they had in the car, where Jane brought up Kenny's family in a cruel attempt to hurt him, not to mention Kenny's already declining mental state, which would've clouded his judgement slightly. AJ was a ray of hope for Kenny, so when Jane, the person he always had his doubts about, suddenly arrives to claim that AJ was dead, well, he snapped and couldn't control his anger.
I'll try and find it, but basically for the audition description for Lilly's VA, it gives information about Lilly and it mentions how Larry was a "shit dad" and how he did abuse her, I'm not too sure if it ever came up in-game but like I said I'll try to find it. They weren't too fond of Kenny but Kenny still had a family, and that's really all he needed. He didn't neccesarily care about what Carley, Lee, Ben or even Clementine thought of him, so long as he had a family because that is what matters to him the most.
That's quite interesting actually, about Larry and Lilly. They seemed to have a fairly decent relationship in the game from what I remember, but for all I know, maybe the reason Larry spent so much time defending Lilly was his own guilt at being such a shit dad when she was growing up. Who knows though? What you said about Kenny is true and I can't argue it, except that I do think he cares about Lee and Clem if you develop a friendship with him. Otherwise, it's true depending on how you played.
Honestly, this is a fair point but I just think she snapped. Like when you see her face straight after Carley drops to the floor, you just see the look of shock on it, as she realizes "Oh my god, what have I done?" I think she was tempted by blind rage (which Kenny has been tempted by also...a lot). In her mind, it was to protect the group, in an odd way. A way in which none of us will really understand - maybe Kenny was doing this too with Jane, thinking he was protecting Clementine because Jane was apparently a "child murderer". But I guess we'll never really know or understand, like I said, most of this is down to interpretation, how you personally interpret the characters.
I can agree to most of that, except for your interpretation of her trying to protect the group, at least in the Carley situation. I do believe when she shoots Doug by accident trying to kill Ben, she was thinking it was the best course of action to take against a traitor. Whilst if you saved Carley, I think she kills her on a more personal level, after Carley had insulted her, which must of gotten to Lilly, and she lashed out. Though, it was done without rational thinking and I do believe she had guilt for it.
Even still, (in my game Lee disagreed because wtf), he is still partly to blame. Also, if you look back at the scene, Lilly doesn't take anything. Even when you agree you should take the supplies, she stands to the side, holding the rifle and doesn't move an inch.
Oh, must of forgot that. I think it was actually Carley who took part in the robbing, which I for some reason, I assumed was Lilly. Sorry about that. I also disagreed with the robbing, despite usually agreeing with Kenny.
I understand that and I did comment on this. I said, that in these types of situations, Lilly at least has a viable reason. If someone murdered Clementine like Lilly or Ben, fuck no am I going to help you, you are on your own. I know it's not right but Lilly's reasoning for not helping Lee far surpasses Kenny's reason of "Oh, well you disagree with me." And before you say "Well you're putting Kenny in danger, and he can't save his family by not helping to kill Larry, that's why he's mad."
Yeah, to be honest, in that instant, Kenny is wrong. You're right to say Lilly has a far more viable reason to hate Lee than Kenny, so I'll give you that. He probably did truly believe that Lee not helping to kill Larry was putting his family's life at risk and he couldn't have predicated that Lee, in the end, would save them. Also when his family is saved and Kenny is still pissed at Lee, I think that's more down to the fact that when he truly needed Lee to support him, Lee wasn't there and made him look like the bad guy, which to Lilly, he was. Still it's probably one of Kenny's more scummy moments.
I know, and I know he's a good person. And I know Lilly fucked things up. But in this case, I can't agree with him. I simply can't murder an innocent man just so I can stay on his good side, that's not right. (Also just a mental note, I realized, Kenny does have a moral corruption, I mean I remember he wanted Lee to let another innocent woman die just so they had extra time to get some supplies from the drug store).
Yeah, I can understand. The whole Larry situation is still something I have regrets about, but in the end, I do think the safest bet was killing him. Afterall, it did seem like he was dead, but I seriously hated how that scene played out, especially considering Lilly was there. On the subject of the woman, who had been bitten just so you know, Kenny felt he had to do it in order to gain more time for those back at the motor inn to get the supplies, people who had chances to live and not those who were doomed, like the woman. Though it's far from morally right, I'll admit. Though neither Lilly or Kenny are saints, which is why I like them.
Well, I mean you do have to look at his motivation behind the actions. I'm not justifying what Lee done and of course it was wrong, but the … moreman did have an affair with his wife, whom Lee obliviously loved. It was a great betrayal and in the instance, Lee lashed out and killed him, though I doubt he had intentionally set out to do that. Either way, Lee redeems himself throughout the course of the story, so I'll never hold it against him. Lilly, on the other hand, does not redeem herself for what she does to Carly/Doug and actually grows to be worse, as she steals the RV if you show her some decency no matter what happens. Even Kenny in S1, redeems himself with how he treats Ben by later going on to save him from Walkers.
You have a fair point about Lilly stealing the RV and how Lee does redeem himself (I did try and help her, yet she stole the RV anyway when I let her on), but at the same time we don't really know what's going through … [view original content]
I understand Kenny is a broken man, but goodness gracious is he just a downright awful human being
Oh yes, an awful human being yet you do not look past the way he is and look at the reasons behind his actions because sadly like a lot of people, they judge Kenny on just his bad side and never look at the good side of him.
Wow and yet all those negative things said about Kenny i noticed you didn't list everything "good" he does such as when he DOES help Lee get the door off of him in Macon, when he DOES save Lee before Danny shoots him etc etc. Yeah you have to side with him but it's the same with Lilly, she treats you like shit if you help Kenny and for good reason yes but Kenny's reasons are just as valid but to a lot of people they aren't which i don't agree with.
Yeah what she did sucked, but it seems like people are so easy to just forgive people's crimes because of character bias.
Lee murdered a … moreman pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipped on Kenny too), and he's not awful because well Jane had it coming or some other reason.
Lilly murders an innocent person in cold blood (which by the way, in one situation she was right - if you save Doug, she attempts to shoot Ben just Doug gets in the way. It sucks and she is still held accountable, but let's be honest, there was definitely every reason to suspect Ben), but oh no she's awful.
Kenny causes so many issues for the group through his own actions and shows little to no remorse for them. He's a toxic and broken man who relied on Clementine, not loving her out of wishes to protect her and l… [view original content]
Well, I mean you do have to look at his motivation behind the actions. I'm not justifying what Lee done and of course it was wrong, but the … moreman did have an affair with his wife, whom Lee obliviously loved. It was a great betrayal and in the instance, Lee lashed out and killed him, though I doubt he had intentionally set out to do that. Either way, Lee redeems himself throughout the course of the story, so I'll never hold it against him. Lilly, on the other hand, does not redeem herself for what she does to Carly/Doug and actually grows to be worse, as she steals the RV if you show her some decency no matter what happens. Even Kenny in S1, redeems himself with how he treats Ben by later going on to save him from Walkers.
You have a fair point about Lilly stealing the RV and how Lee does redeem himself (I did try and help her, yet she stole the RV anyway when I let her on), but at the same time we don't really know what's going through … [view original content]
Not really, though. Kenny refuses to help you because didn't help him to crash Larry's head to prevent reanimation weeks ago.
And that was what he believed a risk in case he turned and killed all of them. He felt Lee was helping put them in danger by not doing the hard thing. Besides and I don't care if you hate on me for this but who seriously gives a shit about Larry? He wouldn't have done the same for you if it was the other way round.
One would think that after that much time he would've realized that there were better ways to execute the same plan, as I've pointed out before—first place a salt lick on his abdomen, while Lee performs chest compressions, and Lilly and Kenny stand beside Larry's head, lifting a second salt lick over his head. If he reanimates, drop the salt lick. If he turns out to be alive, toss the salt lick sideways. I'm not asking for Kenny to think about this all while Larry's possible corpse is lying on the floors. I'm asking for Kenny to realize that the way he executed the prevention of reanimation was plain terrible, and to realize why Lee didn't side with him on it.
I agree that the situation should have been dealt better but when you are scared you do things with haste and may not always be the right decision however if it was me in there I wouldn't take any chances, even giving the chance for him to reanimate would terrify me.
Lilly refuses to help you because you forcefully restrained her so that Kenny could crush the head of her father, and this happens twenty minutes after Larry's death. She is in the middle of shock and grief. Lilly's anger is far more understandable than Kenny's
This is true but despite this, it goes to show that she was still willing to let Lee die for helping Kenny which makes her just as bad as how certain people label Kenny for leaving Lee to die. I say that because, you say if Kenny had thought about why Lee wouldn't side with, what about thinking of maybe Lilly could have thought why Lee did side with Kenny? Make sense? Sorry if not.
Yes, but when you're about to be killed by Andy with the electric fence, Lilly will stand there with her gun and do nothing if you agreed wi… moreth Kenny in the locker. I mean, I can understand why she'd do that and don't hold it against her, but to argue that Kenny's awful for not helping you if you don't agree with him, whilst Lilly will do the same, is hypocritical.
Not really, though.
Kenny refuses to help you because didn't help him to crash Larry's head to prevent reanimation weeks ago. One would think that after that much time he would've realized that there were better ways to execute the same plan, as I've pointed out before—first place a salt lick on his abdomen, while Lee performs chest compressions, and Lilly and Kenny stand beside Larry's head, lifting a second salt lick over his head. If he reanimates, drop the salt lick. If he turns out to be alive, toss the salt lick sideways. I'm not asking for Kenny to think about this… [view original content]
Kenny's reasons are just as valid but to a lot of people they aren't
You're right, I have to disagree with this. One thing is being pissed at one person because that person smashed your dad's face, but leaving you to die because you didn't help killing a dude? Is that what Kenny's defenition of friendship is? 'We're bros as long as you agree with me, otherwise you can die for all I care'.
Wow and yet all those negative things said about Kenny i noticed you didn't list everything "good" he does such as when he DOES help Lee get… more the door off of him in Macon, when he DOES save Lee before Danny shoots him etc etc. Yeah you have to side with him but it's the same with Lilly, she treats you like shit if you help Kenny and for good reason yes but Kenny's reasons are just as valid but to a lot of people they aren't which i don't agree with.
......So, all the decent things he's done outweighs the acts of murder that he's committed??? Kenny will only do anything for Lee if you help him kill Larry, disagree with Lilly on EVERYTHING, and drop Ben. If you don't side with Kenny, he doesn't help pull the door off of you; instead he stares at you and considers actually LEAVING you. For the Danny situation, he stands there and does absolutely nothing if you don't murder Larry. At least Lilly has an actual reason to be pissed off if you don't side with her, because she is the one who's trying to lead the group while taking care of her disabled father that you have the option to murder in cold blood. Not to mention, he will refuse to help rescue Clementine in spite of you if you didn't side on him through the whole game. He is no hero, his few decently humane actions don't excuse the fact that he is willing to murder/dispose of anyone who gets in his way. I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly agree that Lilly is a way better person than Kenny.
Wow and yet all those negative things said about Kenny i noticed you didn't list everything "good" he does such as when he DOES help Lee get… more the door off of him in Macon, when he DOES save Lee before Danny shoots him etc etc. Yeah you have to side with him but it's the same with Lilly, she treats you like shit if you help Kenny and for good reason yes but Kenny's reasons are just as valid but to a lot of people they aren't which i don't agree with.
You know what actually? Forget it because i can see it turning into another argument. I know my feelings on the Lilly/Kenny situation as well as the meay locker scene and nothing will change that
Yes, but when you're about to be killed by Andy with the electric fence, Lilly will stand there with her gun and do nothing if you agreed wi… moreth Kenny in the locker. I mean, I can understand why she'd do that and don't hold it against her, but to argue that Kenny's awful for not helping you if you don't agree with him, whilst Lilly will do the same, is hypocritical.
Not really, though.
Kenny refuses to help you because didn't help him to crash Larry's head to prevent reanimation weeks ago. One would think that after that much time he would've realized that there were better ways to execute the same plan, as I've pointed out before—first place a salt lick on his abdomen, while Lee performs chest compressions, and Lilly and Kenny stand beside Larry's head, lifting a second salt lick over his head. If he reanimates, drop the salt lick. If he turns out to be alive, toss the salt lick sideways. I'm not asking for Kenny to think about this… [view original content]
And that was what he believed a risk in case he turned and killed all of them. He felt Lee was helping put them in danger by not doing the hard thing. Besides and I don't care if you hate on me for this but who seriously gives a shit about Larry? He wouldn't have done the same for you if it was the other way round.
I acknowledge that Kenny thought the safest route was to kill Larry before reanimation possibly took place, and I appreciate that he went ahead and carried the plan out, considering that he described himself as the guy who couldn't stand watching the family dog be put down. That doesn't mean that I think it was moral—that's morally ambiguous more than anything in my opinion, since we don't know if Larry would've come back to life.
I don't give a shit about Larry anymore, since one of his few redeemable qualities—being a great father—is invalidated to me, taking into account that he used to abuse Lilly when she was younger. However, I will still go with the route that works out the best way for the largest number of people, Larry, Lilly, Kenny and everyone else included.
I agree that the situation should have been dealt better but when you are scared you do things with haste and may not always be the right decision however if it was me in there I wouldn't take any chances, even giving the chance for him to reanimate would terrify me.
I referred to that too, actually. I don't expect Kenny nor anyone else to have the clear mindset in that situation, as I believe that I would've had an anxiety attack and stood around watching.
What bugged me out is that Kenny doesn't forgive Lee after two entire weeks. He should've realized that there were better ways to execute the plan, and that Lee disagreed with how Kenny acted potentially because of it. I honestly perceive that Kenny took it as a personal attack against his person, as Lee questioning his capability, which, to me, is absurd. Two weeks is more than enough time to let this grudge in particular go.
This is true but despite this, it goes to show that she was still willing to let Lee die for helping Kenny which makes her just as bad as how certain people label Kenny for leaving Lee to die. I say that because, you say if Kenny had thought about why Lee wouldn't side with, what about thinking of maybe Lilly could have thought why Lee did side with Kenny? Make sense? Sorry if not.
The thing is, Lilly didn't refuse to save Lee because the latter sided with Kenny. She did because Lee took place in the murder of her father. If Lee helped Larry by doing chest compressions, did Kenny lose a family member, or is he just mad because Lee didn't side with him?
Not really, though. Kenny refuses to help you because didn't help him to crash Larry's head to prevent reanimation weeks ago.
And th… moreat was what he believed a risk in case he turned and killed all of them. He felt Lee was helping put them in danger by not doing the hard thing. Besides and I don't care if you hate on me for this but who seriously gives a shit about Larry? He wouldn't have done the same for you if it was the other way round.
One would think that after that much time he would've realized that there were better ways to execute the same plan, as I've pointed out before—first place a salt lick on his abdomen, while Lee performs chest compressions, and Lilly and Kenny stand beside Larry's head, lifting a second salt lick over his head. If he reanimates, drop the salt lick. If he turns out to be alive, toss the salt lick sideways. I'm not asking for Kenny to think about this all while Larry's possible corpse is lying on … [view original content]
Comments
Ok...how do you know all these names...did I miss a memo?
Ok the Larry situation...I personally brought someone back who had a heart attack like Larry....now as an aside, I dunno how they would have taken care of Larry afterwards...but I am sure that was not something that Kenny considered as he is not the type of thinker who thinks that far.
Before playing season two I would have probably choose Kenny. But after playing season two I pick Lily for sure.
True. As much as I like Kenny's character, I can't deny the guy's ability to think things through could do with some work.
Can I choose none of them?
Yet the woman who murders an innocent person in cold blood without a shred of evidence to back up her claims, isn't? Fair enough so...
[insert entire discussion that we had two weeks ago here]
…I honestly thought that Kenny was one of your favorites.
Did you change your mind recently, did I misinterpret something, or have I been in an alternate forum for the past six months?
Pretty much, although I do think describing Kenny as an awful person is a bit harsh, especially when put into comparison with Lily. But hey, folks obviously have very different opinions on both characters.
Beatrice's name is known from the name of her character model. Also, because of the first choice of "Long Road Ahead," which goes along the lines of "did you put Beatrice out of her misery?"
Johnny, again, because of the name of his character model, and because Bonnie adresses him as Johnny when she tells him to cover the large window at the ski lodge.
Natasha is called like that by her brother several times throughout "No Going Back." However, her character model is labeled as Maud, which is also a Russian name. I suppose that people took up on calling her Natasha since that is what Arvo used.
I agree on that. I'd rather use more specific terms such as hot-headed, reckless, family-oriented, unconfident, instigating, predictable, selfish to most people while selfless to some others, to describe him, rather than plain awful.
Telltale has done a good job at making him feel like a real person.
Damn..I need to pay more attention.
Yeah what she did sucked, but it seems like people are so easy to just forgive people's crimes because of character bias.
Lee murdered a man pre-apocalypse, yet he's not seen as a bad person because of it.
Kenny attempts to murder Jane in cold blood (and don't give me that, oh Jane was triggering him, because that logic can be flipped on Kenny too), and he's not awful because well Jane had it coming or some other reason.
Lilly murders an innocent person in cold blood (which by the way, in one situation she was right - if you save Doug, she attempts to shoot Ben just Doug gets in the way. It sucks and she is still held accountable, but let's be honest, there was definitely every reason to suspect Ben), but oh no she's awful.
Kenny causes so many issues for the group through his own actions and shows little to no remorse for them. He's a toxic and broken man who relied on Clementine, not loving her out of wishes to protect her and love her as who she is, but as a way to enable the father-child relationship he so longed for after the death of Duck. (I still like him, don't blame me), but I way prefer Lilly. She was a leader, she was resourceful, and she lost everything.
Also fun fact: She was abused by Larry, but still stuck by him and tried her very best to help him, when he clearly didn't deserve it. Yeah, sure, she murdered Carley/Doug and I can't necessarily forgive her for that. But let's think about this. Out of the group, who liked Lilly? Who actually genuinely cared for her? Aside from Lee (and even then this is determinant), and maybe Clementine.
Sure, I get it, there are also implications Kenny was abused, but those are just that, implications.
Ben, Carley/Doug, Kenny, not even Katjaa seemed to have a semblance of goodwill to her, and sure I don't think they downright hated her, they all most likely had varying opinions. But none of them seemed to really like her as a person.
When you're trapped, isolated, you just lost your one lifeline and no one else seems to like you, you're now on the run after barely surviving a bandit/walker attack and someone in your group is a traitor, yeah no I can understand why she snapped. I'm not saying what she did was good, far from it, but you at least have a good reason why. And Kenny, also has a good reason why, but I'm tired of the whole "Well Kenny is absolved from his actions, and Lilly isn't just because-" When they both did terrible things due to their mental wellbeing.
It's just that, as a whole, Kenny did worse things, didn't necessarily care for Clementine as a person and almost ruins everything for everyone.
Who is the one who suggests they should go to Savannah for a boat? Kenny.
Who is the one who wants to take from the random car they found in Episode 2? Kenny.
Who is the one who wants to murder Larry because apparently, you can't just wait until they try and resuscitate him and wants to end him then and there in front of both Lilly and Clementine? Kenny (fun fact, he even says "You're worthless, Lee" if you try to help Larry).
I despise the fact that disagreeing with him, causes him to go out of his way to just do the most horrible things. So let's say you disagree with him on Larry and try to help Larry. He kills Larry, and you get out and try to find the others.
Who lets Lee almost die when Danny is about to shoot him? Kenny (Lilly comes to help him however).
Who actually saves Katjaa and Duck from the St Johns? Lee and Carley/Doug (not Kenny, who gets shot - sucks for him but still).
Who considers leaving Lee in Macon when he's being attacked by walkers? Kenny. (A door of walkers falls on Lee, and as Lee calls for help, Kenny turns back and considers leaving him before Lee wrestles the walkers off him and then Kenny shoots at them).
Who saves Katjaa and Duck again, albeit Duck being bit? Kenny.
And I get it, I do. There are times when Kenny does do nice things. He saves Lee in Episode 1, he helps Clementine and does genuinely support her throughout Season 2. But he is broken, he even says himself that he shouldn't take care of Clementine in one of the endings for Season 2 (when urging her to go to Wellington). But, Lilly was a good leader (and yes I know she can also potentially let Lee die...but that's because Lee literally helped slaughter her father in front of her, so yeah what she does is scummy but she has a far better reason than "oh my god Lee, how dare you disagree with me?").
This also happened in Michonne, by the way!
Do you know who Janey and Rich are?
Well, I mean you do have to look at his motivation behind the actions. I'm not justifying what Lee done and of course it was wrong, but the man did have an affair with his wife, whom Lee obliviously loved. It was a great betrayal and in the instance, Lee lashed out and killed him, though I doubt he had intentionally set out to do that. Either way, Lee redeems himself throughout the course of the story, so I'll never hold it against him. Lilly, on the other hand, does not redeem herself for what she does to Carly/Doug and actually grows to be worse, as she steals the RV if you show her some decency no matter what happens. Even Kenny in S1, redeems himself with how he treats Ben by later going on to save him from Walkers.
Well, in that instance, both parties can be blamed for the fight and neither were in the right (didn't intent for that to rhyme), but you can't deny that Jane set about to CAUSE the fight and is partly more responsible, in my opinion, for it's outcome. Not to mention her putting a child's life at risk, simply to prove her point, which is all very callous.
To say Kenny doesn't show remorse for his actions is again, a bit harsh. Granted, I can't deny he's done awful things which he doesn't always feel remorse for, but you can see he does feel regret for many of the things he did, such as seen with his treatment of Ben, who he goes on to risk his own life for to save. Also Kenny does genuinely love Clementine for who she is and it's seen in Season 2 that he'd do anything to protect her, not just becomes he longs for his lost relationship with Duck, but because Clem's one of the last good things in his life. And again, as I've said to others, most of Kenny's actions have good intentions behind them.
Well, I don't think anyone truly disliked Lilly, besides Kenny and possibly Carley. I mean, I never saw anyone express any genuine love for her either, but I certainly wouldn't say many people, besides determinately Lee and Kenny's family, were all to fond of Kenny either. The group was flawed, to say the least. Also where did you hear that Larry abused Lilly? I never saw any implications of it, but I could of easily missed something, so I'm interested to know where this info came from.
Again, not many people expressed much like for Kenny either, minus Katjaa, Duck and possibly Lee, so I wouldn't say Lilly was the outsider in the group you're portraying. And I mean, she did have her father with her, who did genuinely love her, although if he abused her, that's an entire different story and could mean something else.
I can agree with most of that, but it's just a lot easier for many people, myself included, to understand Kenny's terrible decisions than that of Lilly's. Lilly killed a character, who for a lot was a favourite character, for no strong motive. Was she doing it to protect the group? Not really, as it was clear to see how she was handling the situation was just making things worse and was solving nothing. What she does to Carley, who she murdered not because she thought Carley was responsible for the deal with the bandits, but because of what Carley says, is evident of that. When Kenny killed Larry, who may have been dead, he did it because he believed it was for the best and couldn't risk a Walker, especially one as large as Larry, to be trapped inside the locker with them.
The boat, in my opinion, was the best bet, so can't blame him for that.
Yes, but I didn't see very many people disagree with him. I know that Lilly makes a comment about it being wrong, but she still takes part in the robbing, alongside the rest of the group, so they're all to blame in that instance.
Yes, but when you're about to be killed by Andy with the electric fence, Lilly will stand there with her gun and do nothing if you agreed with Kenny in the locker. I mean, I can understand why she'd do that and don't hold it against her, but to argue that Kenny's awful for not helping you if you don't agree with him, whilst Lilly will do the same, is hypocritical.
If Lilly were in the same situation with Lee and their relationship were poor, she'd do the same thing. And still, he does still shoot at them, so he does at least change his mind as the situation escalates.
Yeah, I can understand all of that, but when you do build up a decent relationship with Kenny, he's loyal no matter what happens. Sure, he's still a selfish prick at times, but what person isn't? What counts is when you do need his help, he'll offer it as long as he sees you as a friend. Lilly, on the other hand, who murders either Carley or Doug, steals the RV, leaving two children and everyone in the group stranded, left to die. Even if your relationship with Lilly was good and you agree to go with her, she still ditches you and leaves everyone. No matter how much someone may hate Kenny, he'd never ditch the group like that, especially when there's children.
This is amazing, honestly.
I was a big fan of Kenny before. After playing a lot of Telltale games, I got bored of TWD but that doesn't mean I don't like Kenny. It has been 2 years since TWD Season 2 ended. I did choose to stay with him at the end and of course I will begin Season 3 with him.
After having playing Season 2 in full and seeing how far Kenny has fallen in my level of respect for him, I'd pick Lilly in a heartbeat.
I get it, she murdered someone in cold blood and in the heat of the moment over who betrayed their group and caused their mini-community to collapse, and can potentially steal your vehicle to escape after you've take her captive with no idea on what to do with her. But in all honesty, I forgave her a long time ago.
From what I've seen, Lilly was in a position where she's damned if she takes the rational and survivalist route (rationing everyone's food, refusing to let Ben in, not willing to invite a group of strangers in there group that had attracted the attention of walkers, etc.), and she'd damned if she tries to be more moral and considerate (showing disgust over Kenny's approval for using someone as bait to get more supplies, teaching everyone on how to use guns, refusing to steal from an abandoned vehicle, etc.). No matter what ideas she had or choices she had made, it seemed that Lilly was never going to be appreciated either way, and yet she still tried her best to watch out for her group, and this was before her breakdown.
Before her breakdown, she wasn't necessarily the most pleasant person to be with, but she had her group's well-being in mind the entire time. Lilly still let Lee and Kenny's group in her own group in spite of the bad first impressions in the store, and didn't threaten them to leave for nearly risking everyone being killed by walkers. She reluctantly allowed Ben inside in spite of stating that their food supply was reduced to just snacks, and didn't threaten to have him kicked out either. She showed concern with the group's well-being and safety during their visit to the St. Johns family, and was one of the first to suggest to leave before disaster had struck.
Then there's the meat locker incident, where Lilly only turns on you if you actively help Kenny kill her father, and her reluctance to save you from Andy is far more understandable than Kenny, who froze up and stayed hidden while watching you about to be shot to death by Danny, all because you refused to help him kill an unconscious man in front of his daughter. I understand that there was no saving Larry, but there's a big difference between ensuring that Lilly had fully understood this and accepted her father's inevitable demise, and then there's abruptly killing her father right in front of her as soon as he collapsed while she's trying to resuscitate him.
And finally there's the moment when the group's community is destroyed due to Ben's actions. Before her breakdown, Lilly was more content with speaking to each member and asking them if they were the ones who had smuggled her belongings to the bandits for unknown reasons. While Ben meant well with trying to buy off the bandits for protection, not only did he chose not to reveal to everyone that he smuggled medicine to the bandits, he willingly stole from Lilly, who was already in an emotional breakdown over her father's death, which is pretty messed up. After the bandits attacked, Lilly fought back and did her best to protect her group while watching how the community she and her group worked hard to build had become overrun, and she was forced to leave everything behind.
Looking at her character and her actions in full, I felt pity for her reputation and loneliness, I admired her leadership skills in spite of never having volunteered, and I felt disappointed at her last moments before she left the story, but I'm still willing to put it all in the past.
So yeah, after seeing Kenny's actions in Season 2, I'd definitely choose Lilly.
That isn't fair, though.
Katjaa stays silent during most of the arguments at the motel, when she could be driven to defend her husband. Kat decides not to intervene when Lilly calls him out about going to Savannah, and she even attempts to calm Kenny down when he is about to go off on Lilly. That didn't work.
After Kenny and Katjaa discuss the need to carry guns, and Lee approaches them, she will state that she believes that the group can't turn on each other any more than they've had. Katjaa also seems horrified by the fact that Larry was killed just before Lilly. That possibly made her look at Lilly with another eyes, but we didn't see this, since the bandits attacked soon after.
In addition:
Your relationship with both characters depends basically in the choice of trying to save Larry or killing him. But exploring and thinking about the consecuences of the desicion, I notices somethin:
I understand if Kenny's a little upset about it. I mean, he thought he was the only one that could see the danger. But C'MON, MAN! He still hates you after so long just because you didn't agree with something he did? WTF?
In the other hand, it makes perfect sense for Lilly to be angry, you just killed the only family she had!
I heard around that one of the reasons of so many stress that eventually caused her to snap was that, after her father's death, she didn't only feel depressed, but also a little relieved, since she didn't have to suffer Larry's abuse, and she was horrified by this thought.
Carley was the straw that broke the camel's back. How would you feel if you just lost the only family you had, and you have the feeling of relieve torturing you and making you feel like a monster, and almost everyone in your group hates you, and you find out that there's a traitor among those people, a group of bandits breaks in your home and destrois it, and now that you lost everything you had, you kill the person you think that you think caused all the disaster AND the one that was treating you like shit(even if she was inocent)/try to kill the person you think caused the disaster and killed an innocent man by accident and no one seems to feel any empathy for you???
What was exactly what Carley told to her?
WTF?! Where the hell did that come from?! they didn't even interact before that moment! And where's the fucking empathy? Is like Carley had never lost anyone. That's the problem with people that had lives too happy.
So, fuck Kenny (not... literally...), Lilly's better.
(sorryformybadenglishpleasedontkillme)
Not really, though.
Kenny refuses to help you because didn't help him to crash Larry's head to prevent reanimation weeks ago. One would think that after that much time he would've realized that there were better ways to execute the same plan, as I've pointed out before—first place a salt lick on his abdomen, while Lee performs chest compressions, and Lilly and Kenny stand beside Larry's head, lifting a second salt lick over his head. If he reanimates, drop the salt lick. If he turns out to be alive, toss the salt lick sideways. I'm not asking for Kenny to think about this all while Larry's possible corpse is lying on the floors. I'm asking for Kenny to realize that the way he executed the prevention of reanimation was plain terrible, and to realize why Lee didn't side with him on it.
Lilly refuses to help you because you forcefully restrained her so that Kenny could crush the head of her father, and this happens twenty minutes after Larry's death. She is in the middle of shock and grief. Lilly's anger is far more understandable than Kenny's.
You have a fair point about Lilly stealing the RV and how Lee does redeem himself (I did try and help her, yet she stole the RV anyway when I let her on), but at the same time we don't really know what's going through Lilly's mind. By now, the group, even Katjaa, Clementine and Duck would straight up dislike her or not want to be anywhere near her. She is no longer a leader, but a hostage, and well I agree she does have to be, no one, not even I, would trust her with a gun now unless absolutely necessary.
But for her, I imagine the only reason she stole it because she fears she is going to die. When she asks Lee if he wants to join her with Clementine, I think for a moment she was being genuine but seeing as how everyone turned against her, she put two and two together, believing Lee would never leave and was going to tell the group (who after this would most definitely murder her in her mind), and so she escaped. Yeah, what she did was horrific and I cannot believe it, it honestly made me consider hating her, and I loved Lilly as a character, but from certain interpretations, I can see why she did it, still don't like it.
Also, let's remember, Kenny hasn't been good in a hostage situation either. When Clementine and everyone else is hostage, unless you directly run up to Carver to try and stop him from killing Alvin, even when Rebecca and everyone else cries out to Kenny, he'll still shoot and end up leading Carver to murder Alvin (he also is the cause for Walter's death this way, though I will let him off this because no one would suspect Carver would straight up shoot one of them in cold blood like that).
Later on 'In Harm's Way' (hehe), even when everyone is telling him to stay calm/sit down, even if Clementine asks him to, he'll snap at her for suggesting to wait for Luke (though he does apologize which is nice of him). But still his behaviour wasn't totally great, which goes to show how being placed in a potential hostage situation is going to mess with your mind.
Let's also not forget how in another hostage situation (there's like 5 in The Walking Dead - including the one from 400 Days with Shel), Lilly saves the entire group who are all held at gunpoint from bandits when she shoots one of them.
Okay, but look at the fight from Kenny's perspective. He doesn't know all of that. He simply sees Jane and thinks "Yeah she killed the baby", he never saw the body or any sign of AJ. Jane claims it was an accident and at the time, I believed her. She is freezing, moving slowly with a baby in her hand and walkers coming after her (with also no gun or weapon besides her dagger, and she can't even see that well in the blizzard).
Her tripping, and AJ falling out of her hands, before her having to defend herself from walkers but can't protect AJ is totally possible. So, from Kenny's perspective, he had no right to just accuse her of leaving AJ down on purpose because logically it makes no sense, why would Jane murder AJ for no reason? It's not like the baby is weighing her down, and even if it was crying, it's not like putting the crying baby down will eliminate all the walkers from seeing Jane.
Yeah, Jane is a bad person, but from Kenny's perspective, he just tried to murder a woman for no real reason, blinded by his anger. Jane was right in one thing, Kenny is dangerous. Even when Clementine tries her best to stop the fight, he still carries on.
I'll try and find it, but basically for the audition description for Lilly's VA, it gives information about Lilly and it mentions how Larry was a "shit dad" and how he did abuse her, I'm not too sure if it ever came up in-game but like I said I'll try to find it. They weren't too fond of Kenny but Kenny still had a family, and that's really all he needed. He didn't neccesarily care about what Carley, Lee, Ben or even Clementine thought of him, so long as he had a family because that is what matters to him the most.
Honestly, this is a fair point but I just think she snapped. Like when you see her face straight after Carley drops to the floor, you just see the look of shock on it, as she realizes "Oh my god, what have I done?" I think she was tempted by blind rage (which Kenny has been tempted by also...a lot). In her mind, it was to protect the group, in an odd way. A way in which none of us will really understand - maybe Kenny was doing this too with Jane, thinking he was protecting Clementine because Jane was apparently a "child murderer". But I guess we'll never really know or understand, like I said, most of this is down to interpretation, how you personally interpret the characters.
That's fair, I thought so too but by Episode 2, it had been a couple months and most boats would be gone by now. I thought we'd be getting to Savannah in about a week's time, but honestly that never happened. So I never saw why we should still do it, even by Episode 5.
Even still, (in my game Lee disagreed because wtf), he is still partly to blame. Also, if you look back at the scene, Lilly doesn't take anything. Even when you agree you should take the supplies, she stands to the side, holding the rifle and doesn't move an inch.
Sure the group is still to blame, but that means everyone but Lilly and Clementine (with Lee being determinant).
I understand that and I did comment on this. I said, that in these types of situations, Lilly at least has a viable reason. If someone murdered Clementine like Lilly or Ben, fuck no am I going to help you, you are on your own. I know it's not right but Lilly's reasoning for not helping Lee far surpasses Kenny's reason of "Oh, well you disagree with me." And before you say "Well you're putting Kenny in danger, and he can't save his family by not helping to kill Larry, that's why he's mad."
Just remember, Lee saves Katjaa and Duck (alongside either Carley or Doug), so that should have redeemed him. But apparently not.
There's no real proof of that besides interpretation and even still, Lee helped murder her father, yeah it's still wrong but she would have a much better reason than Kenny for this. Also, Kenny doesn't change his mind (imo). He only shoots, because the walkers are now breaking through now that they have stopped heading to Lee from under the door and Lee backs up, so now walkers are coming towards Lee and now that means they are coming towards Kenny.
I know, and I know he's a good person. And I know Lilly fucked things up. But in this case, I can't agree with him. I simply can't murder an innocent man just so I can stay on his good side, that's not right. (Also just a mental note, I realized, Kenny does have a moral corruption, I mean I remember he wanted Lee to let another innocent woman die just so they had extra time to get some supplies from the drug store).
Lilly ditching everyone does suck, but from my interpretation I understood why she did it. If she does came though in my game to Clementine in Season 3, there will be hell to pay.
While discussing this with @OneWayNoWay a while ago—I've referenced this like three times today, so please excuse me—we agreed that there seemed to be some pre-established rivalry between Lilly and Carley. At some point, Lilly says that it isn't as easy for Lee to let somebody die as much as it is for Kenny. The camera will focus on Carley glaring at Lilly shorty after this, so the two might've had some friction over Lee during the two-week time-skip.
True but she never says anything positive about Lilly, and I imagine she is the type of person who wouldn't necessarily agree with her but at the same time doesn't hate her or anything. Like I said, they all had "varying opinions" of Lilly, whether they were more so positive or negative (neither liking/disliking due to her actions, the controversy surrounding her, her role as team leader, etc.)
Also, if you disagree with Lilly and give food to Carley, Lilly will say that Lee is playing favourites.
I definitely think that Lilly had a thing for Lee.
Looking back at it now, there was no real reason for Carley to say this to Lilly. Not to mention that this line from Carley also makes her appear unnecessarily spiteful in a play-through where she knows that Lee had helped Kenny kill Lilly's father.
One comment also pointed out how out-of-character Carley appeared at the time:
"Carley worries that the combined stress of the last several weeks is nearly sending Lilly over the edge. She notes that she respects Lilly and her efforts to take on the responsibilities of being the group's leader, and she asks Lee to help Lilly out in whatever ways he can. Less than an hour of gameplay later, she inexplicably forgets this entire conversation and proceeds to explode at Lilly just after the latter has clearly cracked from the stress."
I mean, I get that Carley herself was under stress over being accused of betraying the group by Lilly, but I can't say that she didn't bring her own death on herself for insulting an already mentally unbalanced individual who were at their last nerve with everything that has happened.
ME TOO!
Carley was stupid. Lilly was about to kick her out of the group and she doesn't have any better idea to suddenly become an asshole.
Oh, wait! She was already an asshole before!
I wouldn't say that Carley is an asshole, but her last words to Lilly didn't really do her any favors, not to mention having died defending the guilty suspect all along ended up making her look rather foolish in hindsight.
…and that, my children, is the brutal world of The Walking Dead.
Pretty much, yeah.
Okay, I can understand that. She was paranoid, fearing for her own life, and so, fled with the RV when she had the chance. While I can understand the line of thinking she may have had, it's still very selfish to leave two children, alongside a group of people, who she originally saw herself as leader of, stranded without any way to leave and little chance of survival.
I'll acknowledge that Kenny's actions in the situation were stupid, but once again, in his own mind, he was helping. He was trying to eliminate the threat before they could do more damage, but it didn't work. Also if Clem decides to go look for Kenny, she has the option to talk him out of trying to kill Carver, which is what leads to Alvin's death. This shows that when confronted with common sense, at times, Kenny will try to think things through if it comes from someone he cares for. Not always, but I do think he tries.
It's a known fact Kenny has problems controlling his anger and can be quite rash, but he does often end up regretting it, as evident when he apologized to Clem. I'll admit his behaviour was reckless and probably would have cause more problems than anything else, but his intentions were again good. He was trying to get them out of the van and stage a quick escape. And yes, I agree that anyone wouldn't react great in a hostage type situation, as seen when Kenny kills Larry in another similar incident when he was trapped. He didn't think things completely through and as @BetterToSleep pointed out, there was a better way to handle the situation, but he did truly believe it was for the best. Whether it was, is up for interpretation.
I personally think Kenny had his reasons to think the worse of Jane at the time. She had previously left the group and ever since her arrival, was always very distant and less trustworthy than the others. Granted, I know she did come back to help them in the Russian standoff, even saving Kenny's life, but she only did that because of Clem, which was oblivious. There's also the facture of the argument they had in the car, where Jane brought up Kenny's family in a cruel attempt to hurt him, not to mention Kenny's already declining mental state, which would've clouded his judgement slightly. AJ was a ray of hope for Kenny, so when Jane, the person he always had his doubts about, suddenly arrives to claim that AJ was dead, well, he snapped and couldn't control his anger.
That's quite interesting actually, about Larry and Lilly. They seemed to have a fairly decent relationship in the game from what I remember, but for all I know, maybe the reason Larry spent so much time defending Lilly was his own guilt at being such a shit dad when she was growing up. Who knows though? What you said about Kenny is true and I can't argue it, except that I do think he cares about Lee and Clem if you develop a friendship with him. Otherwise, it's true depending on how you played.
I can agree to most of that, except for your interpretation of her trying to protect the group, at least in the Carley situation. I do believe when she shoots Doug by accident trying to kill Ben, she was thinking it was the best course of action to take against a traitor. Whilst if you saved Carley, I think she kills her on a more personal level, after Carley had insulted her, which must of gotten to Lilly, and she lashed out. Though, it was done without rational thinking and I do believe she had guilt for it.
Oh, must of forgot that. I think it was actually Carley who took part in the robbing, which I for some reason, I assumed was Lilly. Sorry about that. I also disagreed with the robbing, despite usually agreeing with Kenny.
Yeah, to be honest, in that instant, Kenny is wrong. You're right to say Lilly has a far more viable reason to hate Lee than Kenny, so I'll give you that. He probably did truly believe that Lee not helping to kill Larry was putting his family's life at risk and he couldn't have predicated that Lee, in the end, would save them. Also when his family is saved and Kenny is still pissed at Lee, I think that's more down to the fact that when he truly needed Lee to support him, Lee wasn't there and made him look like the bad guy, which to Lilly, he was. Still it's probably one of Kenny's more scummy moments.
Yeah, I can understand. The whole Larry situation is still something I have regrets about, but in the end, I do think the safest bet was killing him. Afterall, it did seem like he was dead, but I seriously hated how that scene played out, especially considering Lilly was there. On the subject of the woman, who had been bitten just so you know, Kenny felt he had to do it in order to gain more time for those back at the motor inn to get the supplies, people who had chances to live and not those who were doomed, like the woman. Though it's far from morally right, I'll admit. Though neither Lilly or Kenny are saints, which is why I like them.
EDIT: Grammar mistake.
Oh yes, an awful human being yet you do not look past the way he is and look at the reasons behind his actions because sadly like a lot of people, they judge Kenny on just his bad side and never look at the good side of him.
Wow and yet all those negative things said about Kenny i noticed you didn't list everything "good" he does such as when he DOES help Lee get the door off of him in Macon, when he DOES save Lee before Danny shoots him etc etc. Yeah you have to side with him but it's the same with Lilly, she treats you like shit if you help Kenny and for good reason yes but Kenny's reasons are just as valid but to a lot of people they aren't which i don't agree with.
Jane carries on as well so please don't make it sound like it was just Kenny
And that was what he believed a risk in case he turned and killed all of them. He felt Lee was helping put them in danger by not doing the hard thing. Besides and I don't care if you hate on me for this but who seriously gives a shit about Larry? He wouldn't have done the same for you if it was the other way round.
I agree that the situation should have been dealt better but when you are scared you do things with haste and may not always be the right decision however if it was me in there I wouldn't take any chances, even giving the chance for him to reanimate would terrify me.
Lilly refuses to help you because you forcefully restrained her so that Kenny could crush the head of her father, and this happens twenty minutes after Larry's death. She is in the middle of shock and grief. Lilly's anger is far more understandable than Kenny's
This is true but despite this, it goes to show that she was still willing to let Lee die for helping Kenny which makes her just as bad as how certain people label Kenny for leaving Lee to die. I say that because, you say if Kenny had thought about why Lee wouldn't side with, what about thinking of maybe Lilly could have thought why Lee did side with Kenny? Make sense? Sorry if not.
You're right, I have to disagree with this. One thing is being pissed at one person because that person smashed your dad's face, but leaving you to die because you didn't help killing a dude? Is that what Kenny's defenition of friendship is? 'We're bros as long as you agree with me, otherwise you can die for all I care'.
......So, all the decent things he's done outweighs the acts of murder that he's committed??? Kenny will only do anything for Lee if you help him kill Larry, disagree with Lilly on EVERYTHING, and drop Ben. If you don't side with Kenny, he doesn't help pull the door off of you; instead he stares at you and considers actually LEAVING you. For the Danny situation, he stands there and does absolutely nothing if you don't murder Larry. At least Lilly has an actual reason to be pissed off if you don't side with her, because she is the one who's trying to lead the group while taking care of her disabled father that you have the option to murder in cold blood. Not to mention, he will refuse to help rescue Clementine in spite of you if you didn't side on him through the whole game. He is no hero, his few decently humane actions don't excuse the fact that he is willing to murder/dispose of anyone who gets in his way. I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly agree that Lilly is a way better person than Kenny.
You know what actually? Forget it because i can see it turning into another argument. I know my feelings on the Lilly/Kenny situation as well as the meay locker scene and nothing will change that
I acknowledge that Kenny thought the safest route was to kill Larry before reanimation possibly took place, and I appreciate that he went ahead and carried the plan out, considering that he described himself as the guy who couldn't stand watching the family dog be put down. That doesn't mean that I think it was moral—that's morally ambiguous more than anything in my opinion, since we don't know if Larry would've come back to life.
I don't give a shit about Larry anymore, since one of his few redeemable qualities—being a great father—is invalidated to me, taking into account that he used to abuse Lilly when she was younger. However, I will still go with the route that works out the best way for the largest number of people, Larry, Lilly, Kenny and everyone else included.
I referred to that too, actually. I don't expect Kenny nor anyone else to have the clear mindset in that situation, as I believe that I would've had an anxiety attack and stood around watching.
What bugged me out is that Kenny doesn't forgive Lee after two entire weeks. He should've realized that there were better ways to execute the plan, and that Lee disagreed with how Kenny acted potentially because of it. I honestly perceive that Kenny took it as a personal attack against his person, as Lee questioning his capability, which, to me, is absurd. Two weeks is more than enough time to let this grudge in particular go.
The thing is, Lilly didn't refuse to save Lee because the latter sided with Kenny. She did because Lee took place in the murder of her father. If Lee helped Larry by doing chest compressions, did Kenny lose a family member, or is he just mad because Lee didn't side with him?