Jane tried to kill Keny only because she thought Keny will be a danger to Clem (she said thah in her end) but if u play the Keny end u understand he could never hurt Clem. The reason that most ppl shot Keny was because they thought that Keny was crazy and uncontrollable....but just remember what Lee said to Clem in the drem:
The Lee flashback also gives an opinion about people who went through a lot like kenney and jane have gone through. What Lilly did was wrong she shot a innocent man/woman an Jane was about to lure kenny in a trap to kill him that makes her just as bad.
And Jane running away also showed she'll desert clem if she can't have her around that moment
The problem with that is - If he surrenders people might die. If he doesn't people will die. A hostage is leverage for protection and a means to an end. A hostage taker will kill hostages to press that leverage. The logical thing to do is surrender because the odds for the hostages surviving are better. You can't seem to figure that out.
At the time, you had no clue what Carver's intentions were. As far as Kenny could have known, Carver was as likely to murder everyone as he was to spare them. You can't say what was more likely. You're completely grasping at straws. You can't actually do anything to show Kenny's actions were stupid. As I said before, feel free to have a different opinion on how you would personally handle that situation, but that doesn't mean there is only one answer here.
If you honestly believe that Kenny put much thought into what he was doing you haven't been paying attention.
Pretty much irrelevant. We're simply looking at Kenny's actions and whether those actions were stupid or not.
There was no way he could make sure of anyone's survival no matter what he did. In the case of Kenny surrendering, nothing would then stop C… morearver from gunning everyone down. Therefore, there is logic in not giving up.
The problem with that is - If he surrenders people might die. If he doesn't people will die. A hostage is leverage for protection and a means to an end. A hostage taker will kill hostages to press that leverage. The logical thing to do is surrender because the odds for the hostages surviving are better. You can't seem to figure that out.
If you honestly believe that Kenny put much thought into what he was doing you haven't been paying attention.
He got lucky with the boat. He was drunk and despondent because the harbor was empty. He didn't think to look in garages for boats.
He doesn't get any points for stating the obvious - that the motor inn was going to be attacked - why? Because the place was riddled with bullet holes and arrow shafts. Giving him credit for that is like giving somebody credit for noticing that the sky looks blue.
He doesn't get points for being captain obvious about protecting the boat... he lost it, anyway, didn't he?
Everyone knew that Lilly was going to snap. He doesn't get points for that.
Kirkman is not an expert, he's a writer. His opinions are no more valid than any other.
He's been right about important stuff ever since Season 1 tbh, but people forget it because of his anger issues
He was the one who suspec… moreted the dairy and urged Lee to investigate,he insisted the motor inn wasn't safe for the longest time and that they should leave it ASAP before the bandits tried to take it over,he predicted Lilly would snap eventually, he said there'd be a boat in Savannah, he distrusted Vernon from the start, he said they shouldn't leave the boat unattended while they search for Clem...
Kirkman himself said taking a boat out in the water and trying to find a secluded place in the water was probably the best thing one could do in the ZA, and that was Kenny's plan...
The problem with that is - If he surrenders people might die. If he doesn't people will die. A hostage is leverage for protection and a mean… mores to an end. A hostage taker will kill hostages to press that leverage. The logical thing to do is surrender because the odds for the hostages surviving are better. You can't seem to figure that out.
What you cant seem to figure out is that you think your so smart with the benefit of hindsight, when in reality, the truth is nobody knows the future. Again this just sounds like a pacifists or cowards justification for surrender. Lets put all our lives in the hands of Carver and hope hes nice. If he had been somebody else besides Carver he would have killed EVERYONE. He uses the hostages to draw out everyone then kills them since he doesnt need that leverage anymore. Your seriously trying to use probability to prove your point when your basing it off nothing but your opinion. There is no evidence tha… [view original content]
Pretty much irrelevant. We're simply looking at Kenny's actions and whether those actions were stupid or not.
No. His reasons for doing something are very important for determining if his actions were stupid.
At the time, you had no clue what Carver's intentions were. As far as Kenny could have known, Carver was as likely to murder everyone as he was to spare them.
It's all a simple matter of probability. The probability of hostile intent goes up in the face of hostile action
You can't actually do anything to show Kenny's actions were stupid. As I said before, feel free to have a different opinion on how you would personally handle that situation, but that doesn't mean there is only one answer here.
Really? Because you spend a lot of time doing the exact opposite of what you're saying now.
The problem with that is - If he surrenders people might die. If he doesn't people will die. A hostage is leverage for protection and a mean… mores to an end. A hostage taker will kill hostages to press that leverage. The logical thing to do is surrender because the odds for the hostages surviving are better. You can't seem to figure that out.
At the time, you had no clue what Carver's intentions were. As far as Kenny could have known, Carver was as likely to murder everyone as he was to spare them. You can't say what was more likely. You're completely grasping at straws. You can't actually do anything to show Kenny's actions were stupid. As I said before, feel free to have a different opinion on how you would personally handle that situation, but that doesn't mean there is only one answer here.
If you honestly believe that Kenny put much thought into what he was doing you haven't been paying attention.
Pretty much irrelevant.… [view original content]
The Lee flashback also gives an opinion about people who went through a lot like kenney and jane have gone through. What Lilly did was wrong… more she shot a innocent man/woman an Jane was about to lure kenny in a trap to kill him that makes her just as bad.
And Jane running away also showed she'll desert clem if she can't have her around that moment
Jane tried to kill Keny only because she thought Keny will be a danger to Clem (she said thah in her end) but if u play the Keny end u understand he could never hurt Clem. The reason that most ppl shot Keny was because they thought that Keny was crazy and uncontrollable....but just remember what Lee said to Clem in the drem:
Hi, RudeWolf. That's right! Kenny could never hurt Clementine.
I PREFER THIS ENDING:
Stay with Kenny and Leave Wellington in The Walking Dead Season 2 Episode 5 - No Going Back,
BECAUSE,
I honestly don't see Kenny getting out of this alive. He's just one of those characters who will be with you, almost to the end.
HE'S JUST ONE OF THOSE CHARACTERS WHO WILL BE WITH YOU, ALMOST TO THE END!
Jane tried to kill Keny only because she thought Keny will be a danger to Clem (she said thah in her end) but if u play the Keny end u under… morestand he could never hurt Clem. The reason that most ppl shot Keny was because they thought that Keny was crazy and uncontrollable....but just remember what Lee said to Clem in the drem:
No. His reasons for doing something are very important for determining if his actions were stupid.
Its a totally separate conversation. We were simply talking about if his actions of trying to the save the group were reasonable or not. You're trying to turn the conversation into a conversation about his thought process. Apart from that being a pointless conversation (because there is no way to argue either side of the argument), it has nothing to do with judging whether his actual physical actions were meritable or not in dealing with the situation. Even if Kenny had zero thought process (not a realistic thing to think at all) and was acting strictly on impulse, it doesn't mean that his actual physical actions were unreasonable in terms of dealing with the situation.
It's all a simple matter of probability. The probability of hostile intent goes up in the face of hostile action
If Carver was simply planning on killing all of them anyway, this doesn't matter at all. And that's the point. Its impossible to know. Therefore, acting like there is a more sensible choice here based upon the probable response to violent action doesn't make any sense. Again, the response wouldn't matter at all if Carver was simply planning on killing them anyway.
And even if it was possible to discern which outcome was more likely to happen in the case of giving up, that doesn't mean one should automatically just take their chances. At least Kenny would have some level of control if deciding not to give up. Upon giving up, Carver would totally be in control and could do anything that he wanted to.
Lets say you were somehow magically able to come to the conclusion that there was around a 60% chance of not dooming everyone upon placing yourself, along with everyone else, entirely at Carver's mercy. Would that make surrendering the most prudent choice? Not necessarily, by any means really. Again, you lose all sense of control over the situation at that point. If Carver decides to kill everyone, you're done.
Really? Because you spend a lot of time doing the exact opposite of what you're saying now.
Pretty much irrelevant. We're simply looking at Kenny's actions and whether those actions were stupid or not.
No. His reasons for do… moreing something are very important for determining if his actions were stupid.
At the time, you had no clue what Carver's intentions were. As far as Kenny could have known, Carver was as likely to murder everyone as he was to spare them.
It's all a simple matter of probability. The probability of hostile intent goes up in the face of hostile action
You can't actually do anything to show Kenny's actions were stupid. As I said before, feel free to have a different opinion on how you would personally handle that situation, but that doesn't mean there is only one answer here.
Really? Because you spend a lot of time doing the exact opposite of what you're saying now.
Never become a hostage negotiator... You would just get everyone killed because "we had to try". From all the things Kenny could have done, he did the only thing that would cause others to die 100%. After the first shot, he knew what game Carver was playing, and he was ready to play it too.
Hey, thanks for choosing to ignore every single point I made on the issue. Not sure why I even bother sometimes..
Why are you even bringing up negotiating here? There was no negotiating to be had.
I know its bunch of ifs
Okay, then clearly there is no reason to tie everything back to one single event.
If he didnt want to be so brutal, most of the group would have been fine.
No, there is no way you can just make that assumption.
Yeah, so just because he thinks he is doing whats best for the group,** it justifies his arrogant behaviour?**
I never said that. It simply helps his case in showing that he did in fact care about being a part of the team. Who cares about one single line of dialogue? Again, how does that completely erase everything else he did to show that he was interested in being a part of the team?
Arvo was the one who was trying to deal with robbery peacefully and tried to calm down his "friends"
Key word: Robbery. That is a harmful action.
Later Clementine shoots her sister, Kenny kills rest of his "friends" and starts beating him. Kenny knocks him unconscious with a gun (determinant) and then Kenny starts beating him hard, because Arvo had enough with Kennys abusive way to treat him. Yeah, i can totally see why Arvo was enemy of the group right from the start. Unlike Kenny, other memebers of the group seemed to still value human lives, but Kenny didnt care about anyone else than Clem and AJ.
We could argue about this all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that Arvo had been a clear enemy to the group while Kenny had not been. Kenny shouldn't have beaten Arvo, but that incident shouldn't just win Mike and Bonnie over to the enemy side.
Its a butterfly effect. Something Kenny did long time ago caused something to happen later.
That's ridiculous.
Man, if only Kenny had been outside to warn Lee about that walker before it had a chance to bite him..
The car crashed on snow, its windshield was broken, it had no more diesel... How could you think they could have used that car after that?
I actually kind of forgot that the truck was in rough shape. Regardless, it really doesn't matter. Maybe they found another vehicle (there were obviously a lot of them at the rest stop), maybe they were simply smart about finding shelter and only traveling during the day. Who knows. Clearly they figured something out though. We have no idea what circumstances they went through... so it makes no sense to say they realistically should have died.
If you personally would lean towards giving up there, that's fine, but that doesn't mean the other side of the argument is stupid.
N… moreever become a hostage negotiator... You would just get everyone killed because "we had to try". From all the things Kenny could have done, he did the only thing that would cause others to die 100%. After the first shot, he knew what game Carver was playing, and he was ready to play it too.
Only because Kenny took awhile to enact his plan (technically because Carver had to speak for dramatic purposes..). By the time Kenny got around to killing him, it only took 20 seconds. It really doesn't even matter though, you're ignoring the fact that Carlos's death was simply because he was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, due to a variety of factors. You can't just tie that directly to Kenny specifically taking too long to do something. That's just silly. There are so many other "what-ifs" that a… [view original content]
For the record, nobody thought to look in the garage until Lee was looking for Clem.
You have to give him credit for that, because even though we as the audience found it obvious, nobody else in the group did. Save for Kenny and Lee(determinant).
The whole group lost it, it wasn't just Kenny's fault. Vernon and his group ambushed them and probably had weapons. Nobody anticipated that happening.
Again, we as the audience suspected that Lilly would snap, but Kenny( and Lee, but that is determinant) was the only one who voiced actual concerns about her hurting someone in the game.
Kirkman is the creator of the entire TWD franchise, which is what the game is inspired by. His opinions have a lot more weight that anyone else's, seeing as it's his universe.
* He got lucky with the boat. He was drunk and despondent because the harbor was empty. He didn't think to look in garages for boats.
* He … moredoesn't get any points for stating the obvious - that the motor inn was going to be attacked - why? Because the place was riddled with bullet holes and arrow shafts. Giving him credit for that is like giving somebody credit for noticing that the sky looks blue.
* He doesn't get points for being captain obvious about protecting the boat... he lost it, anyway, didn't he?
* Everyone knew that Lilly was going to snap. He doesn't get points for that.
* Kirkman is not an expert, he's a writer. His opinions are no more valid than any other.
You keep tagging him, you are practically asking him for a fight you know...if you don't want to deal with him, then I suggest you not tag him in your posts.
You keep tagging him, you are practically asking him for a fight you know...if you don't want to deal with him, then I suggest you not tag him in your posts.
ok, but I doubt he'll care that you don't like the way he posts, he'll probably find it funny that you're annoyed tbh. If you truly don't like the way he does things, the best tactic is to ignore him.:/
This is pretty much the only thing worth to debate
We could argue about this all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that Arvo had been a clear enemy to the group while Kenny had not been. Kenny shouldn't have beaten Arvo, but that incident shouldn't just win Mike and Bonnie over to the enemy side.
They told Kenny to stop treating Arvo like that more than once, and after he beat the shit out of him at the house for NO good reason (dont use Luke as excuse, because Kenny never liked that guy) it made Mike feel bad for Arvo, bad enough to take care of him and set him free eventually. Also, when Kenny disagreed with everyone else (Clem being determinant) after he got the car working, he finally made Mike and Bonnie betray the group by forcing them to either stay behind or steal the car so they could go back south (since going to north wasnt an option to them). They didnt care about Kenny and they knew Clementine wouldnt let go of her old friend, so they had to leave them behind. Dont forget that Kenny is the reason Jane wanted to go seperate ways, but unlike Mike and Bonnie, Jane actually cared about Clementine. So 3 people from the group wanted to first go different direction than Kenny and 3 of them later wanted to leave Kenny. Are you saying that all 3 of them were stupid, just because they didnt like/agree with your hero Kenny, or are you able to admit that Kenny is not good team player and caused the group to fall appart?
Never become a hostage negotiator... You would just get everyone killed because "we had to try". From all the things Kenny could have done, … morehe did the only thing that would cause others to die 100%. After the first shot, he knew what game Carver was playing, and he was ready to play it too.
Hey, thanks for choosing to ignore every single point I made on the issue. Not sure why I even bother sometimes..
Why are you even bringing up negotiating here? There was no negotiating to be had.
I know its bunch of ifs
Okay, then clearly there is no reason to tie everything back to one single event.
If he didnt want to be so brutal, most of the group would have been fine.
No, there is no way you can just make that assumption.
Yeah, so just because he thinks he is doing whats best for the group,** it justifies his arrogant behaviour?**
I never said that. It simply helps his case in showing that he did … [view original content]
Why are you even bringing up negotiating here? There was no negotiating to be had.
A hostage negotiation is exactly like a stand-off. Your goal is to save as many hostages as you can. The methods are different but the goal is the same. A hostage negotiator has to keep the hostage taker from killing people - he says the wrong thing or says something the wrong way and people die. It's the reason why even with a full SWAT team they don't immediately storm a building - it gets people killed.
One man on the outside with a hunting rifle. He might have enough ammunition to kill them all if he's an expert marksman - the problem for Kenny is that he's not an expert marksman and the odds of him being able to kill all of the attackers quickly enough to stop them from killing people is virtually nil.
Odds are Kenny didn't put any thought into the matter beyond 'Who are these fuckers? I'm going to kill them.'
Never become a hostage negotiator... You would just get everyone killed because "we had to try". From all the things Kenny could have done, … morehe did the only thing that would cause others to die 100%. After the first shot, he knew what game Carver was playing, and he was ready to play it too.
Hey, thanks for choosing to ignore every single point I made on the issue. Not sure why I even bother sometimes..
Why are you even bringing up negotiating here? There was no negotiating to be had.
I know its bunch of ifs
Okay, then clearly there is no reason to tie everything back to one single event.
If he didnt want to be so brutal, most of the group would have been fine.
No, there is no way you can just make that assumption.
Yeah, so just because he thinks he is doing whats best for the group,** it justifies his arrogant behaviour?**
I never said that. It simply helps his case in showing that he did … [view original content]
LMAO you just justified robbing people. Wow. Ok well that doesnt change the fact that Jane caused the entire Arvo situation. And your not addressing the issue. Your argument that Kenny is unstable and dangerous to be around meanwhile its thanks to Jane that armed russians are hunting Clem down. Your gonna dodge that point forever because you obviously cant refute it. Kenny may scream a lot and hurt peoples feelings but he didnt endanger the group the way Jane did. Those russians could have killed everybody. Robbing anybody is stupid. but strangers who could have a large group. Jane is too reckless and unstable to care for Clem properly. First she gets these russians hunting clem and then ditches the group only to pop back in the play hero after everybody almost died thanks to her.
Well i have already replied to this robbery thing.
Didnt rob for good reason? Rebecca was giving a birth to a baby, Luke was like shit and Kennys head was beat to shit. Yeah, she had no good reason to try rob him.
It's all a simple matter of probability. The probability of hostile intent goes up in the face of hostile action --BipedalP
If only it were that simple. Unfortunately, that is complete and utter garbage that its a simple matter of probability. If his plan is already to kill everyone except rebecca than the hostile intent is already there at 100% probability. Again your using hindsight, and your also assuming from the beginning that Carver doesn't intend to kill everyone. Most people would rather fight than put their life in the hands of a madman.
Pretty much irrelevant. We're simply looking at Kenny's actions and whether those actions were stupid or not.
No. His reasons for do… moreing something are very important for determining if his actions were stupid.
At the time, you had no clue what Carver's intentions were. As far as Kenny could have known, Carver was as likely to murder everyone as he was to spare them.
It's all a simple matter of probability. The probability of hostile intent goes up in the face of hostile action
You can't actually do anything to show Kenny's actions were stupid. As I said before, feel free to have a different opinion on how you would personally handle that situation, but that doesn't mean there is only one answer here.
Really? Because you spend a lot of time doing the exact opposite of what you're saying now.
This is pretty much the only thing worth to debate
Why? Because you don't have anything to say for the other points? I thought we were really making some progress
They told Kenny to stop treating Arvo like that more than once, and after he beat the shit out of him at the house for NO good reason (dont use Luke as excuse, because Kenny never liked that guy) it made Mike feel bad for Arvo, bad enough to take care of him and set him free eventually. Also, when Kenny disagreed with everyone else (Clem being determinant) after he got the car working, he finally made Mike and Bonnie betray the group by forcing them to either stay behind or steal the car so they could go back south (since going to north wasnt an option to them). They didnt care about Kenny and they knew Clementine wouldnt let go of her old friend, so they had to leave them behind.
Yes, I understand why Mike and Bonnie did what they did, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a silly thing to do. Again, Arvo had been a clear enemy to the group. Kenny was never anything of the sort, and only had everyone's best interests in mind. If Mike and Bonnie needed to go their separate ways, then so be it, but the way they handled the situation was absolutely terrible. You can't blame their scumbag-ish actions on Kenny. They were just being selfish.
So 3 people from the group wanted to first go different direction than Kenny and 3 of them later wanted to leave Kenny. Are you saying that all 3 of them were stupid, just because they didnt like/agree with your hero Kenny, or are you able to admit that Kenny is not good team player and caused the group to fall appart?
I have never said anyone was stupid simply for not agreeing with Kenny. I was talking about the way that Mike and Bonnie handled the situation.
The group falling apart is not on Kenny. Yes, he was stubborn about Wellington when confronted, but no one else was giving an inch in that conversation either. Mike wasn't, Jane wasn't, and Bonnie didn't really do anything but shake her head. If anything, the group falling apart was on Mike and Bonnie... considering you know... they were actually the individuals that went about splitting up the group and made the decision on their own.
This is pretty much the only thing worth to debate
We could argue about this all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that Arvo had… more been a clear enemy to the group while Kenny had not been. Kenny shouldn't have beaten Arvo, but that incident shouldn't just win Mike and Bonnie over to the enemy side.
They told Kenny to stop treating Arvo like that more than once, and after he beat the shit out of him at the house for NO good reason (dont use Luke as excuse, because Kenny never liked that guy) it made Mike feel bad for Arvo, bad enough to take care of him and set him free eventually. Also, when Kenny disagreed with everyone else (Clem being determinant) after he got the car working, he finally made Mike and Bonnie betray the group by forcing them to either stay behind or steal the car so they could go back south (since going to north wasnt an option to them). They didnt care about Kenny and they knew Clementine wouldnt let go o… [view original content]
A hostage negotiation is exactly like a stand-off.
There were no negotiations to be had. Why on earth would Carver negotiate in this situation?
It's the reason why even with a full SWAT team they don't immediately storm a building - it gets people killed.
Yes, but a SWAT team has more ideal options. Kenny only had two options: Give up, or fight. You're also ignoring the fact that SWAT teams generally have the upper hand on the criminals anyway, in terms of threat level. They have leverage.
As we have been over, there really is no comparison.
One man on the outside with a hunting rifle. He might have enough ammunition to kill them all if he's an expert marksman - the problem for Kenny is that he's not an expert marksman and the odds of him being able to kill all of the attackers quickly enough to stop them from killing people is virtually nil.
What? Kenny killed one man, and determinately narrowly missed killing the leader of the whole operation. Its not like Kenny was hapless in that situation.
And of course people could die in the process, but as we have been over many times now, everyone could have died in the process if Kenny had surrendered (as far as anyone could realistically know in that situation). There was risk no matter what course of action was taken.
Odds are Kenny didn't put any thought into the matter beyond 'Who are these fuckers? I'm going to kill them.'
Why are you even bringing up negotiating here? There was no negotiating to be had.
A hostage negotiation is exactly like a stand-off… more. Your goal is to save as many hostages as you can. The methods are different but the goal is the same. A hostage negotiator has to keep the hostage taker from killing people - he says the wrong thing or says something the wrong way and people die. It's the reason why even with a full SWAT team they don't immediately storm a building - it gets people killed.
One man on the outside with a hunting rifle. He might have enough ammunition to kill them all if he's an expert marksman - the problem for Kenny is that he's not an expert marksman and the odds of him being able to kill all of the attackers quickly enough to stop them from killing people is virtually nil.
Odds are Kenny didn't put any thought into the matter beyond 'Who are these fuckers? I'm going to kill them.'
Uhhh yeah so my Clem chose not to steal from Arvo and that seemed to piss of Jane since she was trying to talk Clem into robbing. Jane then flipped, and put a gun to Arvo's head oh and by the way stole HIS GUN. So Arvo left feeling like he had been robbed. Where to you get this retarded idea that she HAD TO PUT A GUN TO HIS HEAD, and threaten him, and steal his gun so that he would never come back or else "they would kill him"? Who would kill him? Let me guess. oh right. Kenny would see a crippled teenager walking up and just shoot him in the head for being a cripple right?
Jane was unstable, and her causing the Arvo situation proves that she was far more dangerous to have in your group than Kenny was. You just ignore our points and attack straw men its ridiculous
Well clearly you havent played the game at all, since you dont know different outcomes.
Only reason Jane considered to steal from Arvo, was… more because our group was in really bad shape. And the reason she threatened Arvo, was so he wouldnt come back, knowing that they would kill him. If you decided to do as Jane proposed and steal from Arvo, he comes back and tries to rob your group and sure, you can blame Jane for that, even if her intentions were to benefit the group with medicine.
If you decide to not steal from Arvo, he will still try to rob you and blame you for the robbery he committed. Its determinant what happens, so its not Janes fault that Arvo sneaky little prick. You might aswell blame Clementine for their robbery attempt, because she also has dialogue options to provoke Arvo.
Dont try to use logic and reasoning, if you are ignorant about the facts.
Never become a hostage negotiator... You would just get everyone killed because "we had to try". From all the things Kenny could have done, he did the only thing that would cause others to die 100%. After the first shot, he knew what game Carver was playing, and he was ready to play it too. - Zykelator
Hey, thanks for choosing to ignore every single point I made on the issue. Not sure why I even bother sometimes -Belan
Yeah Belan we really shouldn't bother. Some of these people, especially Zykelator realize they have no leg to stand on so they just erect straw man arguments as if that is somehow countering our points. I just wish my debate professor was here. He would declare you a winner big time because you seem to stay on point and drive it home without losing composure. I love debating but we are going in circles with this guy.
Never become a hostage negotiator... You would just get everyone killed because "we had to try". From all the things Kenny could have done, … morehe did the only thing that would cause others to die 100%. After the first shot, he knew what game Carver was playing, and he was ready to play it too.
Hey, thanks for choosing to ignore every single point I made on the issue. Not sure why I even bother sometimes..
Why are you even bringing up negotiating here? There was no negotiating to be had.
I know its bunch of ifs
Okay, then clearly there is no reason to tie everything back to one single event.
If he didnt want to be so brutal, most of the group would have been fine.
No, there is no way you can just make that assumption.
Yeah, so just because he thinks he is doing whats best for the group,** it justifies his arrogant behaviour?**
I never said that. It simply helps his case in showing that he did … [view original content]
Provoked huh? Using harsh language against somebody (Carley) is a little different than hiding someones baby and making them think you killed it (Jane). Most logical and rational people can see the difference there, which is why it doesn't surprise me that your comparing the two.
What? Lilly saw her dad's face smashed right in front eyes. Worst part is she had to live with the person who killed her dad. Carly's comment did not help at all.
Also, I must remind you that AJ is not Kenny's child.
Provoked huh? Using harsh language against somebody (Carley) is a little different than hiding someones baby and making them think you kille… mored it (Jane). Most logical and rational people can see the difference there, which is why it doesn't surprise me that your comparing the two.
The Lee flashback also gives an opinion about people who went through a lot like kenney and jane have gone through. What Lilly did was wrong… more she shot a innocent man/woman an Jane was about to lure kenny in a trap to kill him that makes her just as bad.
And Jane running away also showed she'll desert clem if she can't have her around that moment
Kenny had practically adopted AJ because nobody else wanted the responsibility. Kenny stepped up and chose to take care of the child like his own. Who else was going to? So yeah it was his as much as adopted children have parents too. You dont have to be the sperm donor to make it your kid. Second of all, your still comparing "Carly's comment", yes COMMENT, to leaving a baby in car in order to make somebody think you killed it. Nice try bud. Come on really? So now, saying F you to somebody is the same as killing someone?
What? Lilly saw her dad's face smashed right in front eyes. Worst part is she had to live with the person who killed her dad. Carly's comment did not help at all.
Also, I must remind you that AJ is not Kenny's child.
The motor inn though, he was pretty much the only character who wanted to leave it [not counting determinant Lee]. If Lee asks everyone else if they should leave when you're searching for the stolen supplies, they all say they want to stay because they think it's safe.
* He got lucky with the boat. He was drunk and despondent because the harbor was empty. He didn't think to look in garages for boats.
* He … moredoesn't get any points for stating the obvious - that the motor inn was going to be attacked - why? Because the place was riddled with bullet holes and arrow shafts. Giving him credit for that is like giving somebody credit for noticing that the sky looks blue.
* He doesn't get points for being captain obvious about protecting the boat... he lost it, anyway, didn't he?
* Everyone knew that Lilly was going to snap. He doesn't get points for that.
* Kirkman is not an expert, he's a writer. His opinions are no more valid than any other.
The fact is Jane would let Clementine in the engraving. No matter what comes, Jane came back just to make a plan for how she gets Clementine, that's all. Stupid Jane. Was not a good idea of Jane, because Kenny and Clementine are as a family. AJ fits perfectly to this family, Kenny has more experience about babies. Jane still has no idea about babies.
Kenny could never hurt Clementine! Kenny takes care of the Baby and Clementine! Kenny is a awesome guy!
Forever Kenny and Clementine.
....
Remember what Lee said to Clementine in the dream:
Clementine: Lee?
Lee: Hmm?
Clementine: Why did Lilly do that to Carley?
Lee: I don't know. She was sad, Clem. That can make people angry sometimes.
Clementine: Have you ever been that angry?
Lee: One time. (Think about Lee's past - Lee was also convicted for murdering a state senator who had an affair with his wife, and was going to serve a life sentence before the police car crashed).
Clementine: ....
Lee: Clem, people don't always make sense.
Clementine: How come?
Lee: 'Cause bad things happen to everyone. And it's hard to keep bein' yourself after they do. Do you think we should've let Lilly stay?
Clementine: I don't know.
Lee: I don't either. I don't know if we did the right thing.
Clementine: How can you tell?
Lee: Well, it's not like math, Clem. Sometimes there just isn't a right answer.
Clementine: I hate math.
Lee: Me too, sweet pea. Yeah, but part of growing up is doing what's best for the people you care about... even if sometimes... that means hurting someone else.
Clementine: I don't want to hurt anyone.
Lee: It's not that easy.
Clementine: I'm scared, Lee.
Lee: What can I tell you to make it better?
Clementine: That you won't leave me.
Lee: Oh, I wouldn't do that. I promise. Everything's gonna be all right.
The dream means Kenny also had bad times because of his family. Kenny could never hurt Clementine! Kenny was sad, that can make people angry sometimes. People don't always make sense. 'Cause bad things happen to everyone. And it's hard to keep bein' yourself after they do. It's not like math. Sometimes there just isn't a right answer. Part of growing up is doing what's best for the people you care about... even if sometimes... that means hurting someone else.
(If you noticed it, the camera in the dream will also be shown on Kenny, while you talk to Lee.)
I honestly don't see Kenny getting out of this alive. He's just one of those characters who will be with you, almost to the end.
What? Lilly saw her dad's face smashed right in front eyes. Worst part is she had to live with the person who killed her dad. Carly's comment did not help at all.
Also, I must remind you that AJ is not Kenny's child.
Comments
Wait... you are not a troll?
The sad thing is that i dont think you're a troll.
Jane tried to kill Keny only because she thought Keny will be a danger to Clem (she said thah in her end) but if u play the Keny end u understand he could never hurt Clem. The reason that most ppl shot Keny was because they thought that Keny was crazy and uncontrollable....but just remember what Lee said to Clem in the drem:
zykelator vs Belan, This should be interesting.
The Lee flashback also gives an opinion about people who went through a lot like kenney and jane have gone through. What Lilly did was wrong she shot a innocent man/woman an Jane was about to lure kenny in a trap to kill him that makes her just as bad.
And Jane running away also showed she'll desert clem if she can't have her around that moment
At the time, you had no clue what Carver's intentions were. As far as Kenny could have known, Carver was as likely to murder everyone as he was to spare them. You can't say what was more likely. You're completely grasping at straws. You can't actually do anything to show Kenny's actions were stupid. As I said before, feel free to have a different opinion on how you would personally handle that situation, but that doesn't mean there is only one answer here.
Pretty much irrelevant. We're simply looking at Kenny's actions and whether those actions were stupid or not.
He is partially responsible through his negligence.
It's not hindsight when I thought he was being stupid during my playthrough.
No. His reasons for doing something are very important for determining if his actions were stupid.
It's all a simple matter of probability. The probability of hostile intent goes up in the face of hostile action
Really? Because you spend a lot of time doing the exact opposite of what you're saying now.
I suppose we should blame Carley for her own death also? She provoked Lilly after all.
Hi, RudeWolf. That's right! Kenny could never hurt Clementine.
I PREFER THIS ENDING:
Stay with Kenny and Leave Wellington in The Walking Dead Season 2 Episode 5 - No Going Back,
BECAUSE,
I honestly don't see Kenny getting out of this alive. He's just one of those characters who will be with you, almost to the end.
HE'S JUST ONE OF THOSE CHARACTERS WHO WILL BE WITH YOU, ALMOST TO THE END!
FOREVER KENNY AND CLEMENTINE.
I LOVE KENNY.
@zykelator vs @Lemoncakes
the biggest extremists on this forum against each other, i would pay to see that
This'd be interesting as well.
Havent met this fellow yet.
it would just be stupid bullshit arguments ( @Lemoncakes ) against, angry stubborn arguments ( @zykelator )
keep away from him, you are pretty aggressive, but you are not even near being as shitty as @Lemoncakes
Its a totally separate conversation. We were simply talking about if his actions of trying to the save the group were reasonable or not. You're trying to turn the conversation into a conversation about his thought process. Apart from that being a pointless conversation (because there is no way to argue either side of the argument), it has nothing to do with judging whether his actual physical actions were meritable or not in dealing with the situation. Even if Kenny had zero thought process (not a realistic thing to think at all) and was acting strictly on impulse, it doesn't mean that his actual physical actions were unreasonable in terms of dealing with the situation.
If Carver was simply planning on killing all of them anyway, this doesn't matter at all. And that's the point. Its impossible to know. Therefore, acting like there is a more sensible choice here based upon the probable response to violent action doesn't make any sense. Again, the response wouldn't matter at all if Carver was simply planning on killing them anyway.
And even if it was possible to discern which outcome was more likely to happen in the case of giving up, that doesn't mean one should automatically just take their chances. At least Kenny would have some level of control if deciding not to give up. Upon giving up, Carver would totally be in control and could do anything that he wanted to.
Lets say you were somehow magically able to come to the conclusion that there was around a 60% chance of not dooming everyone upon placing yourself, along with everyone else, entirely at Carver's mercy. Would that make surrendering the most prudent choice? Not necessarily, by any means really. Again, you lose all sense of control over the situation at that point. If Carver decides to kill everyone, you're done.
Not at all.
Yeah, OH ME.....-_-
Hey, thanks for choosing to ignore every single point I made on the issue. Not sure why I even bother sometimes..
Why are you even bringing up negotiating here? There was no negotiating to be had.
Okay, then clearly there is no reason to tie everything back to one single event.
No, there is no way you can just make that assumption.
I never said that. It simply helps his case in showing that he did in fact care about being a part of the team. Who cares about one single line of dialogue? Again, how does that completely erase everything else he did to show that he was interested in being a part of the team?
Key word: Robbery. That is a harmful action.
We could argue about this all we want, but it doesn't change the fact that Arvo had been a clear enemy to the group while Kenny had not been. Kenny shouldn't have beaten Arvo, but that incident shouldn't just win Mike and Bonnie over to the enemy side.
That's ridiculous.
Man, if only Kenny had been outside to warn Lee about that walker before it had a chance to bite him..
I actually kind of forgot that the truck was in rough shape. Regardless, it really doesn't matter. Maybe they found another vehicle (there were obviously a lot of them at the rest stop), maybe they were simply smart about finding shelter and only traveling during the day. Who knows. Clearly they figured something out though. We have no idea what circumstances they went through... so it makes no sense to say they realistically should have died.
For the record, nobody thought to look in the garage until Lee was looking for Clem.
You have to give him credit for that, because even though we as the audience found it obvious, nobody else in the group did. Save for Kenny and Lee(determinant).
The whole group lost it, it wasn't just Kenny's fault. Vernon and his group ambushed them and probably had weapons. Nobody anticipated that happening.
Again, we as the audience suspected that Lilly would snap, but Kenny( and Lee, but that is determinant) was the only one who voiced actual concerns about her hurting someone in the game.
Kirkman is the creator of the entire TWD franchise, which is what the game is inspired by. His opinions have a lot more weight that anyone else's, seeing as it's his universe.
You keep tagging him, you are practically asking him for a fight you know...if you don't want to deal with him, then I suggest you not tag him in your posts.
I do Wanna deal with him, its the only Way to stop him
ok, but I doubt he'll care that you don't like the way he posts, he'll probably find it funny that you're annoyed tbh. If you truly don't like the way he does things, the best tactic is to ignore him.:/
This is pretty much the only thing worth to debate
They told Kenny to stop treating Arvo like that more than once, and after he beat the shit out of him at the house for NO good reason (dont use Luke as excuse, because Kenny never liked that guy) it made Mike feel bad for Arvo, bad enough to take care of him and set him free eventually. Also, when Kenny disagreed with everyone else (Clem being determinant) after he got the car working, he finally made Mike and Bonnie betray the group by forcing them to either stay behind or steal the car so they could go back south (since going to north wasnt an option to them). They didnt care about Kenny and they knew Clementine wouldnt let go of her old friend, so they had to leave them behind. Dont forget that Kenny is the reason Jane wanted to go seperate ways, but unlike Mike and Bonnie, Jane actually cared about Clementine. So 3 people from the group wanted to first go different direction than Kenny and 3 of them later wanted to leave Kenny. Are you saying that all 3 of them were stupid, just because they didnt like/agree with your hero Kenny, or are you able to admit that Kenny is not good team player and caused the group to fall appart?
A hostage negotiation is exactly like a stand-off. Your goal is to save as many hostages as you can. The methods are different but the goal is the same. A hostage negotiator has to keep the hostage taker from killing people - he says the wrong thing or says something the wrong way and people die. It's the reason why even with a full SWAT team they don't immediately storm a building - it gets people killed.
One man on the outside with a hunting rifle. He might have enough ammunition to kill them all if he's an expert marksman - the problem for Kenny is that he's not an expert marksman and the odds of him being able to kill all of the attackers quickly enough to stop them from killing people is virtually nil.
Odds are Kenny didn't put any thought into the matter beyond 'Who are these fuckers? I'm going to kill them.'
LMAO you just justified robbing people. Wow. Ok well that doesnt change the fact that Jane caused the entire Arvo situation. And your not addressing the issue. Your argument that Kenny is unstable and dangerous to be around meanwhile its thanks to Jane that armed russians are hunting Clem down. Your gonna dodge that point forever because you obviously cant refute it. Kenny may scream a lot and hurt peoples feelings but he didnt endanger the group the way Jane did. Those russians could have killed everybody. Robbing anybody is stupid. but strangers who could have a large group. Jane is too reckless and unstable to care for Clem properly. First she gets these russians hunting clem and then ditches the group only to pop back in the play hero after everybody almost died thanks to her.
If only it were that simple. Unfortunately, that is complete and utter garbage that its a simple matter of probability. If his plan is already to kill everyone except rebecca than the hostile intent is already there at 100% probability. Again your using hindsight, and your also assuming from the beginning that Carver doesn't intend to kill everyone. Most people would rather fight than put their life in the hands of a madman.
Why? Because you don't have anything to say for the other points? I thought we were really making some progress
Yes, I understand why Mike and Bonnie did what they did, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a silly thing to do. Again, Arvo had been a clear enemy to the group. Kenny was never anything of the sort, and only had everyone's best interests in mind. If Mike and Bonnie needed to go their separate ways, then so be it, but the way they handled the situation was absolutely terrible. You can't blame their scumbag-ish actions on Kenny. They were just being selfish.
I have never said anyone was stupid simply for not agreeing with Kenny. I was talking about the way that Mike and Bonnie handled the situation.
The group falling apart is not on Kenny. Yes, he was stubborn about Wellington when confronted, but no one else was giving an inch in that conversation either. Mike wasn't, Jane wasn't, and Bonnie didn't really do anything but shake her head. If anything, the group falling apart was on Mike and Bonnie... considering you know... they were actually the individuals that went about splitting up the group and made the decision on their own.
There were no negotiations to be had. Why on earth would Carver negotiate in this situation?
Yes, but a SWAT team has more ideal options. Kenny only had two options: Give up, or fight. You're also ignoring the fact that SWAT teams generally have the upper hand on the criminals anyway, in terms of threat level. They have leverage.
As we have been over, there really is no comparison.
What? Kenny killed one man, and determinately narrowly missed killing the leader of the whole operation. Its not like Kenny was hapless in that situation.
And of course people could die in the process, but as we have been over many times now, everyone could have died in the process if Kenny had surrendered (as far as anyone could realistically know in that situation). There was risk no matter what course of action was taken.
Whatever you want to think.
Uhhh yeah so my Clem chose not to steal from Arvo and that seemed to piss of Jane since she was trying to talk Clem into robbing. Jane then flipped, and put a gun to Arvo's head oh and by the way stole HIS GUN. So Arvo left feeling like he had been robbed. Where to you get this retarded idea that she HAD TO PUT A GUN TO HIS HEAD, and threaten him, and steal his gun so that he would never come back or else "they would kill him"? Who would kill him? Let me guess. oh right. Kenny would see a crippled teenager walking up and just shoot him in the head for being a cripple right?
Jane was unstable, and her causing the Arvo situation proves that she was far more dangerous to have in your group than Kenny was. You just ignore our points and attack straw men its ridiculous
Yeah Belan we really shouldn't bother. Some of these people, especially Zykelator realize they have no leg to stand on so they just erect straw man arguments as if that is somehow countering our points. I just wish my debate professor was here. He would declare you a winner big time because you seem to stay on point and drive it home without losing composure. I love debating but we are going in circles with this guy.
Provoked huh? Using harsh language against somebody (Carley) is a little different than hiding someones baby and making them think you killed it (Jane). Most logical and rational people can see the difference there, which is why it doesn't surprise me that your comparing the two.
What? Lilly saw her dad's face smashed right in front eyes. Worst part is she had to live with the person who killed her dad. Carly's comment did not help at all.
Also, I must remind you that AJ is not Kenny's child.
This is literally Kenny logic
Berate anyone who goes against him
I don't trust that guy, Clem. He seems real fishy.
When you treat someone like shit, how can you be surprised when they leave you to die? SMH
She came back for Clementine and saved Kenny's life. That's all that matters!
Kenny had practically adopted AJ because nobody else wanted the responsibility. Kenny stepped up and chose to take care of the child like his own. Who else was going to? So yeah it was his as much as adopted children have parents too. You dont have to be the sperm donor to make it your kid. Second of all, your still comparing "Carly's comment", yes COMMENT, to leaving a baby in car in order to make somebody think you killed it. Nice try bud. Come on really? So now, saying F you to somebody is the same as killing someone?
I don't see anything actually being disproven.
The motor inn though, he was pretty much the only character who wanted to leave it [not counting determinant Lee]. If Lee asks everyone else if they should leave when you're searching for the stolen supplies, they all say they want to stay because they think it's safe.
Why is it the good stuff she did is all that matters for Jane, but with Kenny ,only the bad stuff he does matter?
Both of them have done good and evil
Oh, Jane is so an angel, huh? Hahaha....
The fact is Jane would let Clementine in the engraving. No matter what comes, Jane came back just to make a plan for how she gets Clementine, that's all. Stupid Jane. Was not a good idea of Jane, because Kenny and Clementine are as a family. AJ fits perfectly to this family, Kenny has more experience about babies. Jane still has no idea about babies.
Kenny could never hurt Clementine! Kenny takes care of the Baby and Clementine! Kenny is a awesome guy!
Forever Kenny and Clementine.
....
Remember what Lee said to Clementine in the dream:
Clementine: Lee?
Lee: Hmm?
Clementine: Why did Lilly do that to Carley?
Lee: I don't know. She was sad, Clem. That can make people angry sometimes.
Clementine: Have you ever been that angry?
Lee: One time. (Think about Lee's past - Lee was also convicted for murdering a state senator who had an affair with his wife, and was going to serve a life sentence before the police car crashed).
Clementine: ....
Lee: Clem, people don't always make sense.
Clementine: How come?
Lee: 'Cause bad things happen to everyone. And it's hard to keep bein' yourself after they do. Do you think we should've let Lilly stay?
Clementine: I don't know.
Lee: I don't either. I don't know if we did the right thing.
Clementine: How can you tell?
Lee: Well, it's not like math, Clem. Sometimes there just isn't a right answer.
Clementine: I hate math.
Lee: Me too, sweet pea. Yeah, but part of growing up is doing what's best for the people you care about... even if sometimes... that means hurting someone else.
Clementine: I don't want to hurt anyone.
Lee: It's not that easy.
Clementine: I'm scared, Lee.
Lee: What can I tell you to make it better?
Clementine: That you won't leave me.
Lee: Oh, I wouldn't do that. I promise. Everything's gonna be all right.
The dream means Kenny also had bad times because of his family. Kenny could never hurt Clementine! Kenny was sad, that can make people angry sometimes. People don't always make sense. 'Cause bad things happen to everyone. And it's hard to keep bein' yourself after they do. It's not like math. Sometimes there just isn't a right answer. Part of growing up is doing what's best for the people you care about... even if sometimes... that means hurting someone else.
(If you noticed it, the camera in the dream will also be shown on Kenny, while you talk to Lee.)
I honestly don't see Kenny getting out of this alive. He's just one of those characters who will be with you, almost to the end.
Forever Lee, Kenny and Clementine.