A better question: Why is the leader of a large community out scouting for seven escapees BY HIMSELF? What if the adults had actually been home? They would have kicked the shit out of Carver and captured him. Can you imagine him opening the door to find the whole crew?
"Oh... This is awkward. I didn't actually expect to find the people I was looking for while out looking for them, by myself. Now that I'm here I realize coming alone into an entire cabin full of people who hate me and possibly want to kill me was really fucking stupid... Um, you can't maybe just give me a Mulligan on this one, can you? I can could come back later when there's just an eleven year old girl guarding the place. Matching wits with her seems like it'd be more on my level considering what I just did."
Sarah took a picture of herself and just left it lying around for Carver to find. (giving away their positions)
How does someone even blame her for that? Seriously, who would have thought that Carver would find the cabin.
A better question: Why is the leader of a large community out scouting for seven escapees BY HIMSELF? What if the adults had actually been h… moreome? They would have kicked the shit out of Carver and captured him. Can you imagine him opening the door to find the whole crew?
"Oh... This is awkward. I didn't actually expect to find the people I was looking for while out looking for them, by myself. Now that I'm here I realize coming alone into an entire cabin full of people who hate me and possibly want to kill me was really fucking stupid... Um, you can't maybe just give me a Mulligan on this one, can you? I can could come back later when there's just an eleven year old girl guarding the place. Matching wits with her seems like it'd be more on my level considering what I just did."
A better question: Why is the leader of a large community out scouting for seven escapees BY HIMSELF? What if the adults had actually been h… moreome? They would have kicked the shit out of Carver and captured him. Can you imagine him opening the door to find the whole crew?
"Oh... This is awkward. I didn't actually expect to find the people I was looking for while out looking for them, by myself. Now that I'm here I realize coming alone into an entire cabin full of people who hate me and possibly want to kill me was really fucking stupid... Um, you can't maybe just give me a Mulligan on this one, can you? I can could come back later when there's just an eleven year old girl guarding the place. Matching wits with her seems like it'd be more on my level considering what I just did."
Because he's that 'badass'. I dunno, maybe he assumed he could kidnap Sarah on his own, was surprised to find a new kid, and ended up changing his plans to see if he could convert the strange kid to his side.
He'd probably have been more convincing had the writers had the nuance to suggest even a glimmer of humanity in any of his scenes.
A better question: Why is the leader of a large community out scouting for seven escapees BY HIMSELF? What if the adults had actually been h… moreome? They would have kicked the shit out of Carver and captured him. Can you imagine him opening the door to find the whole crew?
"Oh... This is awkward. I didn't actually expect to find the people I was looking for while out looking for them, by myself. Now that I'm here I realize coming alone into an entire cabin full of people who hate me and possibly want to kill me was really fucking stupid... Um, you can't maybe just give me a Mulligan on this one, can you? I can could come back later when there's just an eleven year old girl guarding the place. Matching wits with her seems like it'd be more on my level considering what I just did."
Then why not send them in and have them report back? For all Carver knew, that cabin could have been full of murderous thieves who would have shot him on sight, cut off his head and wore it as a hat. If he had men waiting outside how come NO ONE ever ran into them in the constant running back and forth to the cabin in between when Clem, Pete, and Nick disappeared and when everyone else returns? And why didn't Carver just sic his people on the cabin after he found Sarah's picture? At very least there was probably things worth scavenging, and probably even clues to where they were going. And why didn't he just take Clementine captive herself right then? He knows this girl has probably seen the people he's looking for and he has no objections about capturing and killing people in pursuit of the others as we see at the lodge. Why is Carver not only giving Clem an opportunity to tell the people he's looking for she saw him, but then ample time to pack up and escape? Does he believe in giving them a sporting head start?
Seriously, Carver is like every dumb villain cliche rolled into one man. He leaves a man he tortured in his office, but doesn't bother binding him, or locking his desk which has a gun in it. Next morning when he came in Alvin could have just shot Carver himself.
Yeah but why aren't we? Sitting in a corner waiting for death? Why do these conversations always gravitate towards Sarah when Kenny does the exact same things. =P
Either because Kenny is a fan favourite or because he's an adult man and people only seem to like women characters if they're "badass and independent"
Yeah but why aren't we? Sitting in a corner waiting for death? Why do these conversations always gravitate towards Sarah when Kenny does the exact same things. =P
Your guess is as good as mine. I don't know what the writers wanted to do with Carver and how he appears to the players to begin with since he seems to change characterisation from scene to scene.
I was willing to suspend by disbelief with Carver's character in Episode 2 because he seemed like an interesting and threatening villain character who had potential to be a memorable character. But then comes Episode 3 and he your very own stereotypical evil dictatorship who uses violent methods for trivial faults, and yet he's impressed by Clementine's gall to stand up for herself in the beginning even though he smacks her to the ground for that. His interaction with the group gives him no backstory other than he's evil, just because', and he's supposedly the mastermind of the community but acts like a bully with a gun with just one or two followers. I'm surprised no one just shot him and his small number of cronies and just be done with it.
Then why not send them in and have them report back? For all Carver knew, that cabin could have been full of murderous thieves who would hav… moree shot him on sight, cut off his head and wore it as a hat. If he had men waiting outside how come NO ONE ever ran into them in the constant running back and forth to the cabin in between when Clem, Pete, and Nick disappeared and when everyone else returns? And why didn't Carver just sic his people on the cabin after he found Sarah's picture? At very least there was probably things worth scavenging, and probably even clues to where they were going. And why didn't he just take Clementine captive herself right then? He knows this girl has probably seen the people he's looking for and he has no objections about capturing and killing people in pursuit of the others as we see at the lodge. Why is Carver not only giving Clem an opportunity to tell the people he's looking for she saw him, but then ample time to … [view original content]
I prefer he simply have some minor shred of intelligence. Like how the writers later used Sarah as a prop to show how "tough" Clem is, they made Carver a rock stupid idiot to make Clem seem smarter by comparison. He could be a sadistic asshole, just make him a little smarter about it. And I do mean a little, he doesn't even have to be an evil genius. Just don't have him leave giant massive gaping opportunities for the good guys to escape without having done jack shit to pursue his goal first.
You've suggested a scene where Carver rips out Clem's stitches to lure Sarah out of hiding. Something like that would have worked great here. Carver could even be unaware of Sarah and is just trying to torture the truth out of Clem. You see Sarah under the bed flinching every time Clem screams, covering her mouth trying not to cry so Carver won't hear her. Eventually he could tie Clem up, call his people on the radio to head his way then starts searching the other rooms of the cabin. And while he's doing that, Sarah comes out from hiding, unties Clem and the pair slip out the window and have to try and find the others in the woods before they come back into an obvious trap.
There's nothing wrong with a straight up bad guy just so long as they actually feel threatening. Carver gives everyone so many chances to foil him I'm surprised he didn't just hand a gun to someone at one point and dare them to shoot him. =P
EDIT: Bonus, you also said you want a scene that shows people torture isn't a reliable way to get information. You could actually have that with if Clem tells Carver the truth (i.e. Everyone is wandering around in the damn woods) he's not happy with that answer and just keeps torturing her anyways.
Because he's that 'badass'. I dunno, maybe he assumed he could kidnap Sarah on his own, was surprised to find a new kid, and ended up chang… moreing his plans to see if he could convert the strange kid to his side.
He'd probably have been more convincing had the writers had the nuance to suggest even a glimmer of humanity in any of his scenes.
When my dad passed away I couldn't do anything. I couldn't even go to school. I was younger than Sarah when he passed and I depended on my parents (I still do depend on my mother a lot due to autism/aspergers and anxiety.)
Sarah was depressed. She wasn't /acting/ depressed. She has PTSD and quite possibly autism (PTSD was confirmed by TTG while autism was just a fan speculation but I see a lot of the symptoms that I have in her.) She just watched her father get ripped into by zombies. She's been sheltered for years maybe even her whole life. Without the sole person who protected her of course she was depressed. Not enough to die but still. And she couldn't move or think properly in the trailer because she was grieving and couldn't think properly. Even when I have slight anxiety my mind goes everywhere and even when people say things that would make sense to me logically (like that I need to move on with things) I still can't. It's just too hard.
I didn't mean to make this all about me and I haven't written anything on this fourm that is this long (I could go on but I don't know how to word things properly sometimes) I just wanted to give a bit more insight as someone with the issues Sarah has........ I hope it doesn't quite sound like I'm arguing or being mean either.
She was broken after watching her dad die
I know this. And she, of course, had every reason to be sad. What she didn't have the righ… moret to be was indecisive. The whole scene was her in a catatonic daze, not reacting to any of our advances to get her moving. If you leave her, she starts crying and hollering.
So, what? Is she Cameron or something? Thinks she is severely depressed or just lazy writing to make us feel protective over a character that hasn't shown any actual development? I prefer to think the first one, It's more comedic...
As much as I don't like season 2 Kenny how is he a child molester? Clementine is the only thing he really has left beside AJ and Kenny has PTSD as well with his wife, his son, his girlfriend dead. I haven't seen any signs of him being one.
How do you speak of logic when you yourself post nonsense? A psycho is someone who can calmly, and methodically kill someone. That's Jane. Kenny is not saint I will admit. As for a child molester you are a troll, or really just an idiot.
Except your logic breaks down for Kenny. Kenny is like the short bus carver. He is retarded and when he gets mad, there is no talking an… morey sense into him. In other words Kenny was a monster or at the very least an animal. Jane may have been slightly misguided, but she was a badass and knew that Kenny was a cold blooded killer, a psycho and probably a child molester. i wish I could've just shot Kenny when he best the crap out of that Russian kid. The whole thing could've been avoided.
Sarah is great to keep around. If you are ever in a really bad situation she's your ace in the hole. Just take off running, and she will be the perfect bait.
I did whatever I should to get her back up so I slapped her and got her out of her problem. I felt so bad for hitting her but you can't leave a kid to die for the undead. I couldn't imagine leaving her behind. Even if it cost Luke or Jane's life she had so much more to live for that's why I kept trying to help her
Wasn't he bit because he was forced to work outside the wall by Carver himself? (IIRC). Yeah, how nice of Carver.
Reggie knows there are zombies outside he should have watched his back.
He was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He had new slaves to do his bidding. Why feed one person with one arm when you can feed one person with two arms? Carver had his name, and he knew where he lived. To think otherwise is quite laughable.
If getting rid of him includes giving him a chance to redeem himself then I agree. Of course he knew where he lived they all live in the same building. Carver could have kicked him out after his first incident but he didn't, he even gave Reggie a second chance. How many more chances can he give?
Yeah, no.
Carver gave Reggie a second chance to help himself and the group but he failed again. You can only give someone a certain amount of chances then you have to let them go.
So it was her fault a stray bullet hit her father? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds, or?........
Had she not panicked Carlos wouldn't have to keep telling her to shut up and not drawing all the attention to them.
No. If they knew he was going to find them there they would have left. They knew he was looking, not that they would be found. (Or, at the very least, they somebody besides two very young teenage girls would be around if he did.)
Carver wants Rebecca and they should have known he would not stop looking for them.
Is that supposed to be rhetorical? Because in this case I feel you may actually need an answer. You're pretty much saying that any time someone hides they are hiding in the wrong spot because it's a good place to hide and the person looking will know they are trying to hide. That took a bit to type. So where exactly should they hide, if hiding in a "perfect spot" is predictable. Should they hide in a field? Or on a bridge? Better yet, why not right outside Howe's front door. It's so unpredictable they'll never find them hiding there!
If you are trying to hide you do not pick an obvious hidden Cabin in the middle of the woods.
And then they turned the lights off to stay hidden. What is your argument here?
Carver found the cabin before they turned the lights off.
They should have just shot themselves. He's just too smart to get away from.
At least not stay in one spot. If you want to avoid being found you keep moving.
Well, at least you are consistent. I'll be completely honest, you're the first person I've heard say that Lee should have left her. I'm not sure if that is commendable or horrible.
Thank you!
Well he put his own life at risk for a kid, very bad plan. Especially when she ran off by herself. In my opinion if you want to run away fine but I'm not wasting my time coming after you.
That was a huge chunk of wood. Probably bordering on 150-200 pounds. She couldn't lift them directly up because she was at an awkward angle. Jane could hardly move them from a good position, and she's more muscular than Sarah by multitudes.
She could have pushed it off the the side had she not panicked (again).
a) Reggie shouldn't have got bit. Carver was nice enough to let him stick around having only one arm and all.
Wasn't he bit because … morehe was forced to work outside the wall by Carver himself? (IIRC). Yeah, how nice of Carver.
b) Carver was only watching him closely, wouldn't you if someone was helping random people leave, Rebecca had Clementine in her sights and she didn't want to let Clementine go she'd rather kill her.
He was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He had new slaves to do his bidding. Why feed one person with one arm when you can feed one person with two arms? Carver had his name, and he knew where he lived. To think otherwise is quite laughable.
Carver was nice enough to let Reggie make up for what he did, but one of his "employee's" were too busy crying and daydreaming to do anything (that being Sarah). Not propaganda.
Yeah, no.
Sarah was drawing all the attention to herself with al… [view original content]
Yeah because Carver wasn't a psycho who was going to kill him anyway...No, let's blame it on Sarah, why not Clem too then?
Carver gave Reggie two chances but he let the group down. Sarah didn't do her work to hold her weight. Clementine did her work.
You think Carver was telling the truth. XD
Of course! Reggie should not have helped the "cabin group" to begin with. You do not betray your group.
You know because Carlos totally didn't die before she freaked out...LOGIC!
He didn't she was panicking Carlos was telling her to shut up and asking for Clementine's help then Carlos ended up getting shot and attacked by zombies.
Carver already knew they were there...Carlos shouldn't leave his shirts laying everywhere. It's totally Sarah's fault for trying to have a little fun and accidently forget a small photo upstairs...What were the chances Carver would find it.
If you are hiding from someone you do not leave hints on where you are (Shirt, Photo, Dishes Sarah making noise upstairs). LOGIC.
Sarah was grieving, Luke was yelling...If anything Luke put everyone in danger by yelling. Apparently people can't mourn...
Sarah got Carlos killed. Luke was yelling at Nick. And in the horde no you don't.
Totally her fault...Yeah Jane was in danger...You know the actual able bodied person not crushed by a deck....Logic people...is it that hard?
Jane jumped trying to help Sarah putting herself in danger.
If Sarah had done her work Reggie would still be alive. If Sarah can't even pick berries and cut dead branches how is she useful at all?
… more
Yeah because Carver wasn't a psycho who was going to kill him anyway...No, let's blame it on Sarah, why not Clem too then?
Carver gave Reggie a chance to redeem himself but thanks to Sarah Reggie is dead.
You think Carver was telling the truth. XD
Sarah panicked walking through zombie horde got Carlos killed
You know because Carlos totally didn't die before she freaked out...LOGIC!
Sarah took a picture of herself and just left it lying around for Carver to find. (giving away their positions)
Carver already knew they were there...Carlos shouldn't leave his shirts laying everywhere. It's totally Sarah's fault for trying to have a little fun and accidently forget a small photo upstairs...What were the chances Carver would find it.
Sarah had a mental breakd… [view original content]
Sarah took a picture of herself and just left it lying around for Carver to find. (giving away their positions)
How does someone even blame her for that? Seriously, who would have thought that Carver would find the cabin.
I'm not going to take the time to thoroughly reply to this. Your points are very poorly thought out and only serve to try to belittle Sarah with no actual substance or reasonability behind them. Taking things for only surface value will get you nothing. Try to dissect and inspect what is actually happening.
Wasn't he bit because he was forced to work outside the wall by Carver himself? (IIRC). Yeah, how nice of Carver.
Reggie knows there… more are zombies outside he should have watched his back.
He was looking for a reason to get rid of him. He had new slaves to do his bidding. Why feed one person with one arm when you can feed one person with two arms? Carver had his name, and he knew where he lived. To think otherwise is quite laughable.
If getting rid of him includes giving him a chance to redeem himself then I agree. Of course he knew where he lived they all live in the same building. Carver could have kicked him out after his first incident but he didn't, he even gave Reggie a second chance. How many more chances can he give?
Yeah, no.
Carver gave Reggie a second chance to help himself and the group but he failed again. You can only give someone a certain amount of chances then you have to let them go.
So… [view original content]
Carver gave Reggie two chances but he let the group down. Sarah didn't do her work to hold her weight. Clementine did her work.
Carver was going to kill him anyway, once you got well abled slaves what's the point in keeping a maimed one, especially when you can use it to convert a little girl to your view. That also depends on your choices.
Of course! Reggie should not have helped the "cabin group" to begin with. You do not betray your group.
Because it's so much better being a prisoner to a tyrant.
He didn't she was panicking Carlos was telling her to shut up and asking for Clementine's help then Carlos ended up getting shot and attacked by zombies.
Sarah was making very little noise and Clem did that too in S1. Carlos didn't even slow down (I replayed E3 recently and he kept at the same pace). Then Carlos got hit by a stray bullet which was unlucky and had nothing to do with Sarah and he died. She then freaked out from watching her die in front of her.
If you are hiding from someone you do not leave hints on where you are (Shirt, Photo, Dishes Sarah making noise upstairs). LOGIC.
By that logic it's the entire Cabin Group's fault and you're just being hard on Sarah for leaving just one more proof which he didn't even need since he figured it out from Carlos's shirt.
Sarah got Carlos killed. Luke was yelling at Nick. And in the horde no you don't.
Carlos got killed by bad luck. Luke was yelling at Sarah and they weren't in the herd.
Jane jumped trying to help Sarah putting herself in danger.
Determinant and yeah because Sarah couldn't get out by herself, if anything more people should have jumped down to help.
Yeah because Carver wasn't a psycho who was going to kill him anyway...No, let's blame it on Sarah, why not Clem too then?
Carver ga… moreve Reggie two chances but he let the group down. Sarah didn't do her work to hold her weight. Clementine did her work.
You think Carver was telling the truth. XD
Of course! Reggie should not have helped the "cabin group" to begin with. You do not betray your group.
You know because Carlos totally didn't die before she freaked out...LOGIC!
He didn't she was panicking Carlos was telling her to shut up and asking for Clementine's help then Carlos ended up getting shot and attacked by zombies.
Carver already knew they were there...Carlos shouldn't leave his shirts laying everywhere. It's totally Sarah's fault for trying to have a little fun and accidently forget a small photo upstairs...What were the chances Carver would find it.
If you are hiding from someone you do … [view original content]
Interesting you mention Syria, I've been talking to Conviva Ebrius and he had this to say about my dying dream theory, the one that suggests Clem is trying to come to terms with the cruel and arbitrary end to her own short life.
I’ve no objection to and find even an attraction to the concept of a suffering saint with all her human flaws and suffering the weaknesses and excruciating torments of the human condition with its inner conflicts and struggles who is ultimately dispatched by a nihilistic world that accords children no special sanctity, only leaving an imprint behind, a ‘memory eternal’ as we’d ritually put it over here, and for a Syrian like myself who lives in this region, that world with its effects on the young and helpless is nearer and more visible to us, and so more tantalising to see when it features an endearing, believable victim like Clementine portrayed powerfully in a work of immersive fiction.
He seems to actually find the idea of Clem dying while enduring these torments encouraging if it illustrates the precious value of her life and remind us of the tragedy of someone so young and innocent being destroyed by the world. I actually wrote the dying dream theory because I found it more endearing to think of Clementine ultimately realizing that her death wasn't because there was anything wrong with her for being young or kind, but that it was the world itself at fault. I certainly prefer my own theory over Amid the Ruins implied message that Sarah deserved to die for being something other than cold and unfeeling.
Despite the deliberate intention of being 'darker' and more hopeless than the previous Season, S2 also has moments which are intended to pro… morevide levity and redemption for characters who the writers think deserve it. Hence we get Kenny acting out of character to squeeze 'feels' out of us, whether it's acting submissive to the Wellington guards, forgiving Clem for siding with a baby-killer and murdering him, or allowing her to leave him/kill him and fend for herself. Or Jane finding the heart to allow a starving family into a community.
I guess that this is a case of the developers having their cake and eating it as well. You can't be 'darker' and still commit to the cheesy cliche of having Clem's second father-figure have a teary-eyed last speech with her. Why not go all the way and traumatize Clem completely? Have her trusted guardians turn out to be beyond redemption. Force her to deliberately murder innocent strangers she has no pe… [view original content]
No, I know you didn't. But the ideal of leaving behind a girl that doesn't move "evil" is what quite a few bleeding hearts think here.
Just like the whole A.J. thing I discussed a while back. Some people can't place themselves in a situation and think everything is relegated to good and evil.
I don't think that. I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument is all. Trying to figure why one person you would save, but yet another with much the same qualities as the first, at that point, you would not.
No, I know you didn't. But the ideal of leaving behind a girl that doesn't move "evil" is what quite a few bleeding hearts think here.
Ju… morest like the whole A.J. thing I discussed a while back. Some people can't place themselves in a situation and think everything is relegated to good and evil.
In my rewrite of Season 2, I actually suggested having Clementine's first encounter with Carver be a lot more amicable/neutral. Heading back to the cabin after being separated from Nick and Pete, she runs into a stranger who seems oddly friendly and harmless. "Howdy lil' lady, my name is George."
"George" would warn Clementine that it's dangerous for her to be alone, and mention that he's out looking for a bunch of dangerous people who'd caused some severe damage to his community, killed a couple of his friends. Clementine has the choice of deciding whether to trust the stranger and tell him that she's seen these people before, or to play dumb. Regardless of her choice, Carver tries to paint himself as a truly benevolent figure and invites Clem to follow him back to his camp in order to be 'safe'. Once they come across sight of the cabin, however, Carver begins to radio his group and pulls a gun on Clem to prevent her from sneaking away.
What changes his mind about threatening Clem, however, is when one of the cabin group (maybe Sarah) sees Clem and comes out to greet/interrogate her. He disappears into the brush before he can be spotted. Carlos and Rebecca, being the most distrustful of Clem to begin with, immediately accuse Clem of luring their friends into danger and are about to lock her up again when Clem mentions her encounter with 'George'. Terrified yet surprised by Clem's apparent unfamiliarity with Carver, the group debates whether or not to just tie Clem up and let 'George' take her or to bring her along as a hostage. Sarah stands up for Clem here, and since Carlos is the closest thing to a leader (Luke definitely isn't leader material, despite Episode 2's implications) he acquiesces to her.
That first encounter still has problems - he'd still seem unpleasant and not too bright - but I'd really want to further the idea of Clem having to choose whether he was more trustworthy than the people who had just left her to die. Encountering Carver as just a friendly guy in the woods (without any evil music cues to manipulate your opinion) would make him seem more likable than having a traumatized teenage girl be paralyzed in fear of him.
I prefer he simply have some minor shred of intelligence. Like how the writers later used Sarah as a prop to show how "tough" Clem is, they … moremade Carver a rock stupid idiot to make Clem seem smarter by comparison. He could be a sadistic asshole, just make him a little smarter about it. And I do mean a little, he doesn't even have to be an evil genius. Just don't have him leave giant massive gaping opportunities for the good guys to escape without having done jack shit to pursue his goal first.
You've suggested a scene where Carver rips out Clem's stitches to lure Sarah out of hiding. Something like that would have worked great here. Carver could even be unaware of Sarah and is just trying to torture the truth out of Clem. You see Sarah under the bed flinching every time Clem screams, covering her mouth trying not to cry so Carver won't hear her. Eventually he could tie Clem up, call his people on the radio to head his way then starts search… [view original content]
I suspect some of the unpleasant scenarios I mentioned earlier may actually be saved up for Season 3, where the developers/audience may be slightly more comfortable with a young teenage girl dealing with those horrors as opposed to a preteen. The devs have talked about Clem "not being in a dark enough place yet" to abandon AJ, which implies that they'll try to be even more edgy.
I still doubt they'd dare do things like subject Clem to sexual violence or turn her into a child-soldier, since the outcry from fans would be too great and only a few morbid creeps like me would really be happy with the game being that dark. :P
Interesting you mention Syria, I've been talking to Conviva Ebrius and he had this to say about my dying dream theory, the one that suggests… more Clem is trying to come to terms with the cruel and arbitrary end to her own short life.
I’ve no objection to and find even an attraction to the concept of a suffering saint with all her human flaws and suffering the weaknesses and excruciating torments of the human condition with its inner conflicts and struggles who is ultimately dispatched by a nihilistic world that accords children no special sanctity, only leaving an imprint behind, a ‘memory eternal’ as we’d ritually put it over here, and for a Syrian like myself who lives in this region, that world with its effects on the young and helpless is nearer and more visible to us, and so more tantalising to see when it features an endearing, believable victim like Clementine portrayed powerfully in a work of immersive fiction.
He seems to ac… [view original content]
I'm not going to take the time to thoroughly reply to this. Your points are very poorly thought out and only serve to try to belittle Sarah … morewith no actual substance or reasonability behind them. Taking things for only surface value will get you nothing. Try to dissect and inspect what is actually happening.
I didn't really think this season was all that dark actually. It was depressing, but that was more a issue with a lack of anything worth fighting for and just how badly done certain parts were. Worst that can happen is Clem get's smacked around a lot and shot, none of which really effects her, and Sarah dies, which probably wasn't even intended to be seen as all that cruel (ironically). Well that and Kenny's beating and Carver's appointment with the crowbar, but the former barely effects him and the later is hard to take all that seriously because Carver is basically a cartoon character.
I guess for some it seemed more disturbing because this stuff if happening to a child instead of a an adult, which can be unsettling. But it feels toned back from last season (cannibals, suicides, a range of disturbing murders) because of that, and they weren't even willing to make Clem react to these injuries as if she was a child...or even human sometimes. There's a photoshop where someone added tears rolling down her face during the arm scene and just looking at it I feel for her. But then I guess she would be a "crybaby" like Sarah and we wouldn't like her anymore. Heroes affected by pain are total wimps. That's why Roadhouse is the best movie ever. Pain didn't hurt Patrick Swayze. =P
I suspect some of the unpleasant scenarios I mentioned earlier may actually be saved up for Season 3, where the developers/audience may be s… morelightly more comfortable with a young teenage girl dealing with those horrors as opposed to a preteen. The devs have talked about Clem "not being in a dark enough place yet" to abandon AJ, which implies that they'll try to be even more edgy.
I still doubt they'd dare do things like subject Clem to sexual violence or turn her into a child-soldier, since the outcry from fans would be too great and only a few morbid creeps like me would really be happy with the game being that dark. :P
I think they still restrained themselves a lot more precisely because they used a child protagonist. Sure, in interviews they claim that Clem being a child wouldn't 'protect' her from darkness, but what that really amounted to was having her behave like and be treated as a miniature adult - and to use Kenny as a crutch to distract from the fact that the writers weren't actually very confident about how to write a kid hero in a truly dark story.
Part of this is fear of backlash. The stuff you and I mentioned before - a little girl getting graphically tortured by a grown man, a teenage girl being raped by a thug, sympathetic characters being truly beyond redemption - would probably lead to a lot of critics and players complaining about it being too 'grimderp'.
The scenes that disturbed me the most in Season 2 happened in the first couple of episodes. All That Remains set the tone for a world which really did feel like there was no mercy for Clem, whereas I personally had my skin crawl as I was forced to watch Carlos be tortured in front of his screaming daughter. Aside from Sarah's breakdown in Episode 3, subsequent examples of cruelty felt far less effective to me - we didn't really get to know any more about Rebecca's thoughts on Carver aside from her feeling bad for cheating on Alvin; we didn't find out anything concrete about WHY the cabin group left Carver's community; and Episode 3 itself was way too 'easy' of a game (barely any failure-states) in order to make me feel the same vulnerability that Episode 1 succeeded in imparting.
I didn't really think this season was all that dark actually. It was depressing, but that was more a issue with a lack of anything worth fig… morehting for and just how badly done certain parts were. Worst that can happen is Clem get's smacked around a lot and shot, none of which really effects her, and Sarah dies, which probably wasn't even intended to be seen as all that cruel (ironically). Well that and Kenny's beating and Carver's appointment with the crowbar, but the former barely effects him and the later is hard to take all that seriously because Carver is basically a cartoon character.
I guess for some it seemed more disturbing because this stuff if happening to a child instead of a an adult, which can be unsettling. But it feels toned back from last season (cannibals, suicides, a range of disturbing murders) because of that, and they weren't even willing to make Clem react to these injuries as if she was a child...or even human sometime… [view original content]
I haven't read through the whole thread.. but I tried to save Sarah. I didn't like how she died. She was just a kid. She was Clem's friend. And while it's never confirmed, she did have some sort of disability.. probably a form of autism or a mild learning disability. She was also emotionally fragile. Her father (rightly or wrongly) had shielded her from the world, so to experience all the gore and death was hard for her.. Not everyone is strong, and we shouldn't judge people on their strengths or weaknessess.. (and yes I know it's just a game lol~)
Nope. Kenny pretended to go down in flames with Ben. And then when lee had left, he tucked his tail and ran like a coward. He abandoned lee. Sorry. If you wanna believe that Kenny came to his senses in the 5 seconds between lee begging him to reconsider and the walkers converging on he and Ben that's fine. As for me. I know Kenny is a coward.
When did Kenny care about what happened to Sarah, or Carlos or any one else from the cabin crew? I don't remember him running off to find Luke and Sarah. Oh yeah... Because JANE went. Kenny was too busy blaming Clem for something that wasn't her fault.
I think you have Jane all wrong. She cared, but didn't want to see Clem and the rest of the group get slaughtered. Her inability to cope with her emotions make her act tough seem cold and remove herself from situations that could lead to loss. That is her weakness. But she showed us that she is trying when she came back.
He abandoned lee based off of the PLAYERS interactions with him, as in you.
Luke thing i do find dumb of Kenny.
Ski lodge was in order to … moreprotect everyone.
I would have done the same thing to Carver, he deserved what he got, sure it was a little over the top but its a human characteristic to want revenge.
He shouldnt have beaten arvo, i agree with that.
He eventually apoligized for being mean towards clem, though i also think he was just mad and needed someone to blame, which is wrong. But he still wanted to make it up to her and really felt sorry for blaming her.
If you actually stick with kenny it turns out there was a wellington so the truck was a good thing.
Jane only cared about clem, no one else, maybe luke a little but thats it. She didnt give a shit if the others died. Sure Kenny seemed to only care about Clem and Sarita but he still wanted to help the ENTIRE group when it came down to it.
.... and to be completely fair, aft… [view original content]
"A psycho is someone who can calmly and methodically kill someone" I'm afraid that is not the definition of a "psychotic".
Nice try. Look it up first. Kenny is someone who has lost touch with reality. He is delusional. He is manic. He is a psycho.
Jane killed only a few people. That scumbag that worked for carver, and that Ruskie. The scumbag she shot in in his gems, so my guess is he probably assaulted her, and therefore deserved to die. The Ruskie she killed to save the group. And she expressed to Clem how bad she felt for killing someone that hadn't wronged Her directly. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
How do you speak of logic when you yourself post nonsense? A psycho is someone who can calmly, and methodically kill someone. That's Jane. Kenny is not saint I will admit. As for a child molester you are a troll, or really just an idiot.
Reggie wasn't gonna get redeemed. He had a black mark on his hand bro.
As for Carlos... He got shot dummy. Had nothing to do with Sarah panicking.
None of those other things sound like Sarah's fault to me. they sound like situations that Sarah played a role in. She may have been useless and a total baby... But she didn't kill anyone.
If Sarah had done her work Reggie would still be alive. If Sarah can't even pick berries and cut dead branches how is she useful at all?
… moreCarver gave Reggie a chance to redeem himself but thanks to Sarah Reggie is dead.
Sarah panicked walking through zombie horde got Carlos killed.
Sarah took a picture of herself and just left it lying around for Carver to find. (giving away their positions)
Sarah had a mental breakdown about her dad dying putting Luke, Clementine, and Jane in danger.
Sarah fell putting Jane in danger.
Yeah its not her fault.
a child molester.
As much as I don't like season 2 Kenny how is he a child molester? Clementine is the only thing he really has left… more beside AJ and Kenny has PTSD as well with his wife, his son, his girlfriend dead. I haven't seen any signs of him being one.
Why is Carver not only giving Clem an opportunity to tell the people he's looking for she saw him, but then ample time to pack up and escape? Does he believe in giving them a sporting head start?
You made me think that Carver was a James Bond Villain that moment. lol
Then why not send them in and have them report back? For all Carver knew, that cabin could have been full of murderous thieves who would hav… moree shot him on sight, cut off his head and wore it as a hat. If he had men waiting outside how come NO ONE ever ran into them in the constant running back and forth to the cabin in between when Clem, Pete, and Nick disappeared and when everyone else returns? And why didn't Carver just sic his people on the cabin after he found Sarah's picture? At very least there was probably things worth scavenging, and probably even clues to where they were going. And why didn't he just take Clementine captive herself right then? He knows this girl has probably seen the people he's looking for and he has no objections about capturing and killing people in pursuit of the others as we see at the lodge. Why is Carver not only giving Clem an opportunity to tell the people he's looking for she saw him, but then ample time to … [view original content]
Nope. Kenny pretended to go down in flames with Ben. And then when lee had left, he tucked his tail and ran like a coward. He abandoned … morelee. Sorry. If you wanna believe that Kenny came to his senses in the 5 seconds between lee begging him to reconsider and the walkers converging on he and Ben that's fine. As for me. I know Kenny is a coward.
When did Kenny care about what happened to Sarah, or Carlos or any one else from the cabin crew? I don't remember him running off to find Luke and Sarah. Oh yeah... Because JANE went. Kenny was too busy blaming Clem for something that wasn't her fault.
I think you have Jane all wrong. She cared, but didn't want to see Clem and the rest of the group get slaughtered. Her inability to cope with her emotions make her act tough seem cold and remove herself from situations that could lead to loss. That is her weakness. But she showed us that she is trying when she came back.
Well like I said, that's if you just wanted to Carver to be a sadistic asshole. Have him do some stuff that make us really hate him. Instead the writer's wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Carver's a charismatic cunning manipulative leader! Except when he's a petty sadist! And like Jane, he sucks pretty hard at both things he's suppose to be characteristic for.
He's a fucking idiot who's not fit to captain a cereal box but his monstrous side is mostly limited to slapping young girls and pushing a meek disabled man off a building. He can torture Alvin, but we don't actually see it, and Alvin sounds just fine during his last scene despite the fact he looks half-dead. Kenny walks off possible brain damage (although that might because Kenny didn't need the use of his brain). You don't see the impact of these acts, nor do they feel all that hard to watch because they keep cutting around the grizzler parts. We don't even see Reggie hit the payment.
Personally I think Carver would have worked better as a distant looming figure who we actually don't see much of in person until the end, but constantly feel his presence due to his actions. Even though Crawford Oberson was dead by the time we as audience see his community, you still can feel the weight of what he had done. The grizzly road block, all the signs dictating the rules, their marking system where people are simply deemed ineligible, the hateful way Vernon, Brie and Molly talk about their time in Crawford, and Dr. Logan's tapes with Anna. You can actually sense what it was like living under this man.
Would have preferred that approach to Carver then him showing up in person to micromanage every little thing. Especially since, unlike Crawford, he'd still be alive, so when he does finally enter the picture personally it could make for an exciting climax. Instead, every time you see Carver it just makes you realize more and more what a stupid fool he is and make you question why the hell hasn't his own people just fragged this moron by now. =P
In my rewrite of Season 2, I actually suggested having Clementine's first encounter with Carver be a lot more amicable/neutral. Heading bac… morek to the cabin after being separated from Nick and Pete, she runs into a stranger who seems oddly friendly and harmless. "Howdy lil' lady, my name is George."
"George" would warn Clementine that it's dangerous for her to be alone, and mention that he's out looking for a bunch of dangerous people who'd caused some severe damage to his community, killed a couple of his friends. Clementine has the choice of deciding whether to trust the stranger and tell him that she's seen these people before, or to play dumb. Regardless of her choice, Carver tries to paint himself as a truly benevolent figure and invites Clem to follow him back to his camp in order to be 'safe'. Once they come across sight of the cabin, however, Carver begins to radio his group and pulls a gun on Clem to prevent her from sneaking awa… [view original content]
He never put Clem into an easily escapable death trap, then just leave and assume it all went well. He put her in a lot of other easily escapable situations, but none of them were specifically death traps, so he missed that dubious honor by a hair. =P
Why is Carver not only giving Clem an opportunity to tell the people he's looking for she saw him, but then ample time to pack up and escape… more? Does he believe in giving them a sporting head start?
You made me think that Carver was a James Bond Villain that moment. lol
I know. I was just reminded of a Bond villain from what I quoted you from. It's just what you said there reminded me of one. I wasn't being literal, just joking around.
He never put Clem into an easily escapable death trap, then just leave and assume it all went well. He put her in a lot of other easily esca… morepable situations, but none of them were specifically death traps, so he missed that dubious honor by a hair. =P
Regardless of celebrity costs, I still would have rather had Carver be the villain for the entire Season. Imagine the climactic fight of Episode 5 still being set at the rest-stop in a blinding blizzard, but rather than have two adults squabbling we have an isolated Clem being stalked by a violet madman.
Well like I said, that's if you just wanted to Carver to be a sadistic asshole. Have him do some stuff that make us really hate him. Instead… more the writer's wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Carver's a charismatic cunning manipulative leader! Except when he's a petty sadist! And like Jane, he sucks pretty hard at both things he's suppose to be characteristic for.
He's a fucking idiot who's not fit to captain a cereal box but his monstrous side is mostly limited to slapping young girls and pushing a meek disabled man off a building. He can torture Alvin, but we don't actually see it, and Alvin sounds just fine during his last scene despite the fact he looks half-dead. Kenny walks off possible brain damage (although that might because Kenny didn't need the use of his brain). You don't see the impact of these acts, nor do they feel all that hard to watch because they keep cutting around the grizzler parts. We don't even see Reggie hit th… [view original content]
I know you were joking. What you said just made me think of Carver suspending Clem and Sarah over a shark tank before laughingly maniacally and just walking out the door. =D
I know. I was just reminded of a Bond villain from what I quoted you from. It's just what you said there reminded me of one. I wasn't being literal, just joking around.
Comments
The question was easily understood. What isn't is the idea that doing what clementine did is unrealistic and cheating.
I never called you that.
A better question: Why is the leader of a large community out scouting for seven escapees BY HIMSELF? What if the adults had actually been home? They would have kicked the shit out of Carver and captured him. Can you imagine him opening the door to find the whole crew?
"Oh... This is awkward. I didn't actually expect to find the people I was looking for while out looking for them, by myself. Now that I'm here I realize coming alone into an entire cabin full of people who hate me and possibly want to kill me was really fucking stupid... Um, you can't maybe just give me a Mulligan on this one, can you? I can could come back later when there's just an eleven year old girl guarding the place. Matching wits with her seems like it'd be more on my level considering what I just did."
You're entire hypothetical Carver quote had me rolling.
Perhaps he had his men with guns hiding in the background watching the cabin for any suspicious activities?
Because he's that 'badass'. I dunno, maybe he assumed he could kidnap Sarah on his own, was surprised to find a new kid, and ended up changing his plans to see if he could convert the strange kid to his side.
He'd probably have been more convincing had the writers had the nuance to suggest even a glimmer of humanity in any of his scenes.
Then why not send them in and have them report back? For all Carver knew, that cabin could have been full of murderous thieves who would have shot him on sight, cut off his head and wore it as a hat. If he had men waiting outside how come NO ONE ever ran into them in the constant running back and forth to the cabin in between when Clem, Pete, and Nick disappeared and when everyone else returns? And why didn't Carver just sic his people on the cabin after he found Sarah's picture? At very least there was probably things worth scavenging, and probably even clues to where they were going. And why didn't he just take Clementine captive herself right then? He knows this girl has probably seen the people he's looking for and he has no objections about capturing and killing people in pursuit of the others as we see at the lodge. Why is Carver not only giving Clem an opportunity to tell the people he's looking for she saw him, but then ample time to pack up and escape? Does he believe in giving them a sporting head start?
Seriously, Carver is like every dumb villain cliche rolled into one man. He leaves a man he tortured in his office, but doesn't bother binding him, or locking his desk which has a gun in it. Next morning when he came in Alvin could have just shot Carver himself.
Either because Kenny is a fan favourite or because he's an adult man and people only seem to like women characters if they're "badass and independent"
Your guess is as good as mine. I don't know what the writers wanted to do with Carver and how he appears to the players to begin with since he seems to change characterisation from scene to scene.
I was willing to suspend by disbelief with Carver's character in Episode 2 because he seemed like an interesting and threatening villain character who had potential to be a memorable character. But then comes Episode 3 and he your very own stereotypical evil dictatorship who uses violent methods for trivial faults, and yet he's impressed by Clementine's gall to stand up for herself in the beginning even though he smacks her to the ground for that. His interaction with the group gives him no backstory other than he's evil, just because', and he's supposedly the mastermind of the community but acts like a bully with a gun with just one or two followers. I'm surprised no one just shot him and his small number of cronies and just be done with it.
I prefer he simply have some minor shred of intelligence. Like how the writers later used Sarah as a prop to show how "tough" Clem is, they made Carver a rock stupid idiot to make Clem seem smarter by comparison. He could be a sadistic asshole, just make him a little smarter about it. And I do mean a little, he doesn't even have to be an evil genius. Just don't have him leave giant massive gaping opportunities for the good guys to escape without having done jack shit to pursue his goal first.
You've suggested a scene where Carver rips out Clem's stitches to lure Sarah out of hiding. Something like that would have worked great here. Carver could even be unaware of Sarah and is just trying to torture the truth out of Clem. You see Sarah under the bed flinching every time Clem screams, covering her mouth trying not to cry so Carver won't hear her. Eventually he could tie Clem up, call his people on the radio to head his way then starts searching the other rooms of the cabin. And while he's doing that, Sarah comes out from hiding, unties Clem and the pair slip out the window and have to try and find the others in the woods before they come back into an obvious trap.
There's nothing wrong with a straight up bad guy just so long as they actually feel threatening. Carver gives everyone so many chances to foil him I'm surprised he didn't just hand a gun to someone at one point and dare them to shoot him. =P
EDIT: Bonus, you also said you want a scene that shows people torture isn't a reliable way to get information. You could actually have that with if Clem tells Carver the truth (i.e. Everyone is wandering around in the damn woods) he's not happy with that answer and just keeps torturing her anyways.
When my dad passed away I couldn't do anything. I couldn't even go to school. I was younger than Sarah when he passed and I depended on my parents (I still do depend on my mother a lot due to autism/aspergers and anxiety.)
Sarah was depressed. She wasn't /acting/ depressed. She has PTSD and quite possibly autism (PTSD was confirmed by TTG while autism was just a fan speculation but I see a lot of the symptoms that I have in her.) She just watched her father get ripped into by zombies. She's been sheltered for years maybe even her whole life. Without the sole person who protected her of course she was depressed. Not enough to die but still. And she couldn't move or think properly in the trailer because she was grieving and couldn't think properly. Even when I have slight anxiety my mind goes everywhere and even when people say things that would make sense to me logically (like that I need to move on with things) I still can't. It's just too hard.
I didn't mean to make this all about me and I haven't written anything on this fourm that is this long (I could go on but I don't know how to word things properly sometimes) I just wanted to give a bit more insight as someone with the issues Sarah has........ I hope it doesn't quite sound like I'm arguing or being mean either.
As much as I don't like season 2 Kenny how is he a child molester? Clementine is the only thing he really has left beside AJ and Kenny has PTSD as well with his wife, his son, his girlfriend dead. I haven't seen any signs of him being one.
How do you speak of logic when you yourself post nonsense? A psycho is someone who can calmly, and methodically kill someone. That's Jane. Kenny is not saint I will admit. As for a child molester you are a troll, or really just an idiot.
Sarah is great to keep around. If you are ever in a really bad situation she's your ace in the hole. Just take off running, and she will be the perfect bait.
I did whatever I should to get her back up so I slapped her and got her out of her problem. I felt so bad for hitting her but you can't leave a kid to die for the undead. I couldn't imagine leaving her behind. Even if it cost Luke or Jane's life she had so much more to live for that's why I kept trying to help her
Reggie knows there are zombies outside he should have watched his back.
If getting rid of him includes giving him a chance to redeem himself then I agree. Of course he knew where he lived they all live in the same building. Carver could have kicked him out after his first incident but he didn't, he even gave Reggie a second chance. How many more chances can he give?
Carver gave Reggie a second chance to help himself and the group but he failed again. You can only give someone a certain amount of chances then you have to let them go.
Had she not panicked Carlos wouldn't have to keep telling her to shut up and not drawing all the attention to them.
Carver wants Rebecca and they should have known he would not stop looking for them.
If you are trying to hide you do not pick an obvious hidden Cabin in the middle of the woods.
Carver found the cabin before they turned the lights off.
At least not stay in one spot. If you want to avoid being found you keep moving.
Thank you!
Well he put his own life at risk for a kid, very bad plan. Especially when she ran off by herself. In my opinion if you want to run away fine but I'm not wasting my time coming after you.
She could have pushed it off the the side had she not panicked (again).
Oh but it was.
Carver gave Reggie two chances but he let the group down. Sarah didn't do her work to hold her weight. Clementine did her work.
Of course! Reggie should not have helped the "cabin group" to begin with. You do not betray your group.
He didn't she was panicking Carlos was telling her to shut up and asking for Clementine's help then Carlos ended up getting shot and attacked by zombies.
If you are hiding from someone you do not leave hints on where you are (Shirt, Photo, Dishes Sarah making noise upstairs). LOGIC.
Sarah got Carlos killed. Luke was yelling at Nick. And in the horde no you don't.
Jane jumped trying to help Sarah putting herself in danger.
Is her fault.
Carver was determined to find Rebecca which they knew this but they wanted to have a party first.
I'm not going to take the time to thoroughly reply to this. Your points are very poorly thought out and only serve to try to belittle Sarah with no actual substance or reasonability behind them. Taking things for only surface value will get you nothing. Try to dissect and inspect what is actually happening.
Carver was going to kill him anyway, once you got well abled slaves what's the point in keeping a maimed one, especially when you can use it to convert a little girl to your view. That also depends on your choices.
Because it's so much better being a prisoner to a tyrant.
Sarah was making very little noise and Clem did that too in S1. Carlos didn't even slow down (I replayed E3 recently and he kept at the same pace). Then Carlos got hit by a stray bullet which was unlucky and had nothing to do with Sarah and he died. She then freaked out from watching her die in front of her.
By that logic it's the entire Cabin Group's fault and you're just being hard on Sarah for leaving just one more proof which he didn't even need since he figured it out from Carlos's shirt.
Carlos got killed by bad luck. Luke was yelling at Sarah and they weren't in the herd.
Determinant and yeah because Sarah couldn't get out by herself, if anything more people should have jumped down to help.
Still a nope.
Interesting you mention Syria, I've been talking to Conviva Ebrius and he had this to say about my dying dream theory, the one that suggests Clem is trying to come to terms with the cruel and arbitrary end to her own short life.
He seems to actually find the idea of Clem dying while enduring these torments encouraging if it illustrates the precious value of her life and remind us of the tragedy of someone so young and innocent being destroyed by the world. I actually wrote the dying dream theory because I found it more endearing to think of Clementine ultimately realizing that her death wasn't because there was anything wrong with her for being young or kind, but that it was the world itself at fault. I certainly prefer my own theory over Amid the Ruins implied message that Sarah deserved to die for being something other than cold and unfeeling.
No, I know you didn't. But the ideal of leaving behind a girl that doesn't move "evil" is what quite a few bleeding hearts think here.
Just like the whole A.J. thing I discussed a while back. Some people can't place themselves in a situation and think everything is relegated to good and evil.
I don't think that. I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument is all. Trying to figure why one person you would save, but yet another with much the same qualities as the first, at that point, you would not.
In my rewrite of Season 2, I actually suggested having Clementine's first encounter with Carver be a lot more amicable/neutral. Heading back to the cabin after being separated from Nick and Pete, she runs into a stranger who seems oddly friendly and harmless. "Howdy lil' lady, my name is George."
"George" would warn Clementine that it's dangerous for her to be alone, and mention that he's out looking for a bunch of dangerous people who'd caused some severe damage to his community, killed a couple of his friends. Clementine has the choice of deciding whether to trust the stranger and tell him that she's seen these people before, or to play dumb. Regardless of her choice, Carver tries to paint himself as a truly benevolent figure and invites Clem to follow him back to his camp in order to be 'safe'. Once they come across sight of the cabin, however, Carver begins to radio his group and pulls a gun on Clem to prevent her from sneaking away.
What changes his mind about threatening Clem, however, is when one of the cabin group (maybe Sarah) sees Clem and comes out to greet/interrogate her. He disappears into the brush before he can be spotted. Carlos and Rebecca, being the most distrustful of Clem to begin with, immediately accuse Clem of luring their friends into danger and are about to lock her up again when Clem mentions her encounter with 'George'. Terrified yet surprised by Clem's apparent unfamiliarity with Carver, the group debates whether or not to just tie Clem up and let 'George' take her or to bring her along as a hostage. Sarah stands up for Clem here, and since Carlos is the closest thing to a leader (Luke definitely isn't leader material, despite Episode 2's implications) he acquiesces to her.
That first encounter still has problems - he'd still seem unpleasant and not too bright - but I'd really want to further the idea of Clem having to choose whether he was more trustworthy than the people who had just left her to die. Encountering Carver as just a friendly guy in the woods (without any evil music cues to manipulate your opinion) would make him seem more likable than having a traumatized teenage girl be paralyzed in fear of him.
I suspect some of the unpleasant scenarios I mentioned earlier may actually be saved up for Season 3, where the developers/audience may be slightly more comfortable with a young teenage girl dealing with those horrors as opposed to a preteen. The devs have talked about Clem "not being in a dark enough place yet" to abandon AJ, which implies that they'll try to be even more edgy.
I still doubt they'd dare do things like subject Clem to sexual violence or turn her into a child-soldier, since the outcry from fans would be too great and only a few morbid creeps like me would really be happy with the game being that dark. :P
It has been nice doing business with you.
I didn't really think this season was all that dark actually. It was depressing, but that was more a issue with a lack of anything worth fighting for and just how badly done certain parts were. Worst that can happen is Clem get's smacked around a lot and shot, none of which really effects her, and Sarah dies, which probably wasn't even intended to be seen as all that cruel (ironically). Well that and Kenny's beating and Carver's appointment with the crowbar, but the former barely effects him and the later is hard to take all that seriously because Carver is basically a cartoon character.
I guess for some it seemed more disturbing because this stuff if happening to a child instead of a an adult, which can be unsettling. But it feels toned back from last season (cannibals, suicides, a range of disturbing murders) because of that, and they weren't even willing to make Clem react to these injuries as if she was a child...or even human sometimes. There's a photoshop where someone added tears rolling down her face during the arm scene and just looking at it I feel for her. But then I guess she would be a "crybaby" like Sarah and we wouldn't like her anymore. Heroes affected by pain are total wimps. That's why Roadhouse is the best movie ever. Pain didn't hurt Patrick Swayze. =P
I think they still restrained themselves a lot more precisely because they used a child protagonist. Sure, in interviews they claim that Clem being a child wouldn't 'protect' her from darkness, but what that really amounted to was having her behave like and be treated as a miniature adult - and to use Kenny as a crutch to distract from the fact that the writers weren't actually very confident about how to write a kid hero in a truly dark story.
Part of this is fear of backlash. The stuff you and I mentioned before - a little girl getting graphically tortured by a grown man, a teenage girl being raped by a thug, sympathetic characters being truly beyond redemption - would probably lead to a lot of critics and players complaining about it being too 'grimderp'.
The scenes that disturbed me the most in Season 2 happened in the first couple of episodes. All That Remains set the tone for a world which really did feel like there was no mercy for Clem, whereas I personally had my skin crawl as I was forced to watch Carlos be tortured in front of his screaming daughter. Aside from Sarah's breakdown in Episode 3, subsequent examples of cruelty felt far less effective to me - we didn't really get to know any more about Rebecca's thoughts on Carver aside from her feeling bad for cheating on Alvin; we didn't find out anything concrete about WHY the cabin group left Carver's community; and Episode 3 itself was way too 'easy' of a game (barely any failure-states) in order to make me feel the same vulnerability that Episode 1 succeeded in imparting.
I haven't read through the whole thread.. but I tried to save Sarah. I didn't like how she died. She was just a kid. She was Clem's friend. And while it's never confirmed, she did have some sort of disability.. probably a form of autism or a mild learning disability. She was also emotionally fragile. Her father (rightly or wrongly) had shielded her from the world, so to experience all the gore and death was hard for her.. Not everyone is strong, and we shouldn't judge people on their strengths or weaknessess.. (and yes I know it's just a game lol~)
Nope. Kenny pretended to go down in flames with Ben. And then when lee had left, he tucked his tail and ran like a coward. He abandoned lee. Sorry. If you wanna believe that Kenny came to his senses in the 5 seconds between lee begging him to reconsider and the walkers converging on he and Ben that's fine. As for me. I know Kenny is a coward.
When did Kenny care about what happened to Sarah, or Carlos or any one else from the cabin crew? I don't remember him running off to find Luke and Sarah. Oh yeah... Because JANE went. Kenny was too busy blaming Clem for something that wasn't her fault.
I think you have Jane all wrong. She cared, but didn't want to see Clem and the rest of the group get slaughtered. Her inability to cope with her emotions make her act tough seem cold and remove herself from situations that could lead to loss. That is her weakness. But she showed us that she is trying when she came back.
"A psycho is someone who can calmly and methodically kill someone" I'm afraid that is not the definition of a "psychotic".
Nice try. Look it up first. Kenny is someone who has lost touch with reality. He is delusional. He is manic. He is a psycho.
Jane killed only a few people. That scumbag that worked for carver, and that Ruskie. The scumbag she shot in in his gems, so my guess is he probably assaulted her, and therefore deserved to die. The Ruskie she killed to save the group. And she expressed to Clem how bad she felt for killing someone that hadn't wronged Her directly. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Reggie wasn't gonna get redeemed. He had a black mark on his hand bro.
As for Carlos... He got shot dummy. Had nothing to do with Sarah panicking.
None of those other things sound like Sarah's fault to me. they sound like situations that Sarah played a role in. She may have been useless and a total baby... But she didn't kill anyone.
exactly!!! i suggest we ignore that creepy freak @Hangman
You made me think that Carver was a James Bond Villain that moment. lol
Jesus Doug fans are creeps. Just as Doug.
i like doug AND Kenny, i think its just hangman thats a creep
Well like I said, that's if you just wanted to Carver to be a sadistic asshole. Have him do some stuff that make us really hate him. Instead the writer's wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Carver's a charismatic cunning manipulative leader! Except when he's a petty sadist! And like Jane, he sucks pretty hard at both things he's suppose to be characteristic for.
He's a fucking idiot who's not fit to captain a cereal box but his monstrous side is mostly limited to slapping young girls and pushing a meek disabled man off a building. He can torture Alvin, but we don't actually see it, and Alvin sounds just fine during his last scene despite the fact he looks half-dead. Kenny walks off possible brain damage (although that might because Kenny didn't need the use of his brain). You don't see the impact of these acts, nor do they feel all that hard to watch because they keep cutting around the grizzler parts. We don't even see Reggie hit the payment.
Personally I think Carver would have worked better as a distant looming figure who we actually don't see much of in person until the end, but constantly feel his presence due to his actions. Even though Crawford Oberson was dead by the time we as audience see his community, you still can feel the weight of what he had done. The grizzly road block, all the signs dictating the rules, their marking system where people are simply deemed ineligible, the hateful way Vernon, Brie and Molly talk about their time in Crawford, and Dr. Logan's tapes with Anna. You can actually sense what it was like living under this man.
Would have preferred that approach to Carver then him showing up in person to micromanage every little thing. Especially since, unlike Crawford, he'd still be alive, so when he does finally enter the picture personally it could make for an exciting climax. Instead, every time you see Carver it just makes you realize more and more what a stupid fool he is and make you question why the hell hasn't his own people just fragged this moron by now. =P
He never put Clem into an easily escapable death trap, then just leave and assume it all went well. He put her in a lot of other easily escapable situations, but none of them were specifically death traps, so he missed that dubious honor by a hair. =P
I know. I was just reminded of a Bond villain from what I quoted you from. It's just what you said there reminded me of one. I wasn't being literal, just joking around.
Regardless of celebrity costs, I still would have rather had Carver be the villain for the entire Season. Imagine the climactic fight of Episode 5 still being set at the rest-stop in a blinding blizzard, but rather than have two adults squabbling we have an isolated Clem being stalked by a violet madman.
I know you were joking. What you said just made me think of Carver suspending Clem and Sarah over a shark tank before laughingly maniacally and just walking out the door. =D