Even still, there were moments in which she could have changed topic, in which she could have not said anything, yet she continued.
… moreAfter the little argument about Wellington, Jane said "Whatever. I give up." and put her feet on the dashboard, where Kenny, unnecessarily, pushed her feet off of it. Which escalated the argument.
And so what? She responded to the shit he was giving her. You can't blame her for responding when being provoked, especially when he told her that she was nothing and that no one cared about her.
Kenny only meant to insult her, to get under her skin and hurt her feelings because she was angry.
"Only meant to insult her"? How the hell is that even a justification? His reasoning behind that was because she disagreed on going to Wellington, which she eventually gave up on disagreeing to.
Jane wanted to do the same, yet she was psychologically manipulating and purposefully hoped Kenny snapped
… [view original content]
Kenny, the over-protective who forced Clem to be around him even if she didn't want to, being "her friends", right? I don't understand that line of reasoning.
Kenny, the over-protective who forced Clem to be around him even if she didn't want to, being "her friends", right? I don't understand that line of reasoning.
I would like an example of a situation where she legitimately manipulated Clementine for her own benefit. I could've forgotten if that happened. I'll evaluate whether I agree with it, and if I do, you've got this one.
First of all, what was wrong with her leaving Aj in a frozen car where he could have died by hyporthemia? That's what selfish people do, ditch friends, companions to care for themselves. If that was for provoking Kenny, then it was so unnecesary. Provoking a man who just lost a lot of his friends is just no. This a zombie apocalypse, all you have to do is scavenge supplies, find/make a bunker where you can sleep/eat safely and defend yourself from walkers and crazy people (I don't think Kenny was that crazy, he wasn't about to kill Clem or anyone else unless someone provoked him, was he? He was trying to get her to a safe place). The only reason AJ survived in the frozen car is because of plot armor. If Jane thought she was about to die, then all she had to do is tell Kenny AJ was alive. She clearly didn't want to tell the truth because she did want Clem to shoot him. What would have happened if Clem didn't hear AJ crying? Would Jane have told her the truth? If Clem wasn't the PC, what would she have REALLY done? I think she would have shot Kenny and not forgive Jane. Clem forgiving Jane sounds so unrealistic, so disturbing, I can't even listen to that line, that's not the Clem I know.
I would like an example of a situation where she legitimately manipulated Clementine for her own benefit. I could've forgotten if that happened. I'll evaluate whether I agree with it, and if I do, you've got this one.
I agree with you. The plan was fucking stupid, reckless and dangerous. If she wanted to kill Kenny, she coulda just stabbed him in his sleep. But nooooo, she had to leave a baby in a frozen car to die.
First of all, what was wrong with her leaving Aj in a frozen car where he could have died by hyporthemia?
AJ could've died from hypothermia in that car as much as he could've under Kenny's, Jane's or Clementine's care. It doesn't make any difference.
That's what selfish people do, ditch friends, companions to care for themselves.
Why is it that she has taken care of a little girl and a newborn baby for over nine days, in the Howe's endings? If you let the timer run, Jane herself will tell a three-people family to come in on the community. I believe that points toward her not being a selfish person.
If that was for provoking Kenny, then it was so unnecesary. Provoking a man who just lost a lot of his friends is just no.
I really want everyone to understand that Jane didn't provoke Kenny out of joy or jealously. If she wanted him dead, she could've killed him in his sleep. Jane provoked Kenny to show Clem how dangerous the situation could turn if something that enraged him happened. What if AJ was left under Clementine's care and he choked, or passed out due to cold? Would Kenny realize that it was an accident and that there was nothing Clem could do to prevent it? I believe the answer is no, not because he is a bad man, but because he cares about them so much—totally out of the blue—that if something happened to either he wouldn't be able to restrain himself. Jane wanted to show that to Clem, so that she would realize that staying around him is that risky and unpredictable. That is the opposite of what a selfish person would do—she put herself in danger so that a small girl she barely knew wouldn't have to.
The only reason AJ survived in the frozen car is because of plot armor.
I agree on that, though I believe that, realistically, AJ should've died the day after he was born. He shouldn't be expected not to catch a cold under such circumstances.
If Jane thought she was about to die, then all she had to do is tell Kenny AJ was alive. She clearly didn't want to tell the truth because she did want Clem to shoot him.
Honestly, do you believe she was still playing along the plan while her chest was an inch from the tip of the serrated knife? I don't think so.
What would have happened if Clem didn't hear AJ crying? Would Jane have told her the truth?
If she was dead, she wouldn't have. If she was alive, I think she would've. AJ is still under her care nine day later, which, in my opinion, proves that she wasn't attempting to get rid of him.
If Clem wasn't the PC, what would she have REALLY done? I think she would have shot Kenny and not forgive Jane. Clem forgiving Jane sounds so unrealistic, so disturbing, I can't even listen to that line, that's not the Clem I know.
That is entirely subjective, but I think that would depend on the relationship that the Clementine in question had with Kenny and Jane. My Clementine would've forgiven her.
First of all, what was wrong with her leaving Aj in a frozen car where he could have died by hyporthemia? That's what selfish people do, dit… morech friends, companions to care for themselves. If that was for provoking Kenny, then it was so unnecesary. Provoking a man who just lost a lot of his friends is just no. This a zombie apocalypse, all you have to do is scavenge supplies, find/make a bunker where you can sleep/eat safely and defend yourself from walkers and crazy people (I don't think Kenny was that crazy, he wasn't about to kill Clem or anyone else unless someone provoked him, was he? He was trying to get her to a safe place). The only reason AJ survived in the frozen car is because of plot armor. If Jane thought she was about to die, then all she had to do is tell Kenny AJ was alive. She clearly didn't want to tell the truth because she did want Clem to shoot him. What would have happened if Clem didn't hear AJ crying? Would Jane have tol… [view original content]
Even still, there were moments in which she could have changed topic, in which she could have not said anything, yet she continued.
… moreAfter the little argument about Wellington, Jane said "Whatever. I give up." and put her feet on the dashboard, where Kenny, unnecessarily, pushed her feet off of it. Which escalated the argument.
And so what? She responded to the shit he was giving her. You can't blame her for responding when being provoked, especially when he told her that she was nothing and that no one cared about her.
Kenny only meant to insult her, to get under her skin and hurt her feelings because she was angry.
"Only meant to insult her"? How the hell is that even a justification? His reasoning behind that was because she disagreed on going to Wellington, which she eventually gave up on disagreeing to.
Jane wanted to do the same, yet she was psychologically manipulating and purposefully hoped Kenny snapped
… [view original content]
Kenny, the over-protective who forced Clem to be around him even if she didn't want to, being "her friends", right? I don't understand that line of reasoning.
at least the reason behind him "forcing" her to be around her was what he believed was his responsibility to look after her where as with Jane i feel her reasons for wanting her round was completely different. Point is, neither of them asked her what she wanted to do
Kenny, the over-protective who forced Clem to be around him even if she didn't want to, being "her friends", right? I don't understand that line of reasoning.
Honestly, do you believe she was still playing along the plan while her chest was an inch from the tip of the serrated knife? I don't think so.
Jane should have told him the truth before he made anything worse. She did have a lot of time. Her plan was reckless anyway. Also she was getting attached to her like she wanted to replace her sister.
First of all, what was wrong with her leaving Aj in a frozen car where he could have died by hyporthemia?
AJ could've died from hypo… morethermia in that car as much as he could've under Kenny's, Jane's or Clementine's care. It doesn't make any difference.
That's what selfish people do, ditch friends, companions to care for themselves.
Why is it that she has taken care of a little girl and a newborn baby for over nine days, in the Howe's endings? If you let the timer run, Jane herself will tell a three-people family to come in on the community. I believe that points toward her not being a selfish person.
If that was for provoking Kenny, then it was so unnecesary. Provoking a man who just lost a lot of his friends is just no.
I really want everyone to understand that Jane didn't provoke Kenny out of joy or jealously. If she wanted him dead, she could've killed him in his sleep. Jane provoked Kenny to show Clem how… [view original content]
I believe that points toward her not being a selfish person.
Yet she kept insisting on Clem leaving Sarah behind at the trailer or "pull me up" after the deck collapsed. Even if letting the timer run out it doesn't change the fact that she said the things that she did like "just leave her Clem." I can guarantee you if Clem wasn't around and Jane was on her own, she would not have tried to save Sarah, she would have robbed from Arvo, she would have sent those people away, she wouldn't have tried to save Luke. In my opinion the only reason she determinantly did those things is because Clem was there.
Jane wanted to show that to Clem, so that she would realize that staying around him is that risky and unpredictable. That is the opposite of what a selfish person would do—she put herself in danger so that a small girl she barely knew wouldn't have to.
But is it not selfish leaving AJ in a freezing car with a window slightly open (yes for him to breathe) but that could have allowed walkers to get their hands in, pull out the glass and kill him don't you think? Because AJ is still a human being and just because he can't talk she still did what she did which in my eyes was selfish towards him. Her intentions of "proving a point" to Clem avout Kenny was meant in good faith looking out for her but was a really bad and stupid thing to do because she knew what would happen and if she hadn't done it then nothing would have happened.
I agree on that, though I believe that, realistically, AJ should've died the day after he was born. He shouldn't be expected not to catch a cold under such circumstances.
Agreed. I can't tell you how much i hated how damn stupid the writing was for episode 5 in the handling of AJ
Honestly, do you believe she was still playing along the plan while her chest was an inch from the tip of the serrated knife? I don't think so.
Why didn't Jane shout at that he was alive in a car just over there? Because people assume he wouldn't listen? Maybe he wouldn't have but why didn't she even try? It made no sense to me. Plus she told Clem to stay out of it right?
AJ is still under her care nine day later, which, in my opinion, proves that she wasn't attempting to get rid of him.
No but that's because Clem was with her. Like i said before, I am pretty certain if she was alone she would have ditched the baby first chance she'd get. Sorry if you disagree but that's what i think.
My Clementine would've forgiven her.
It's amazing how different each person's opinion is to the S2 endings. They definitely did a good job dividing opinions
First of all, what was wrong with her leaving Aj in a frozen car where he could have died by hyporthemia?
AJ could've died from hypo… morethermia in that car as much as he could've under Kenny's, Jane's or Clementine's care. It doesn't make any difference.
That's what selfish people do, ditch friends, companions to care for themselves.
Why is it that she has taken care of a little girl and a newborn baby for over nine days, in the Howe's endings? If you let the timer run, Jane herself will tell a three-people family to come in on the community. I believe that points toward her not being a selfish person.
If that was for provoking Kenny, then it was so unnecesary. Provoking a man who just lost a lot of his friends is just no.
I really want everyone to understand that Jane didn't provoke Kenny out of joy or jealously. If she wanted him dead, she could've killed him in his sleep. Jane provoked Kenny to show Clem how… [view original content]
My Clementine would've forgiven her.
YOUR Clem and I was talking about Clem HERSELF
Honestly, do you believe she was still pla… moreying along the plan while her chest was an inch from the tip of the serrated knife? I don't think so.
Jane should have told him the truth before he made anything worse. She did have a lot of time. Her plan was reckless anyway. Also she was getting attached to her like she wanted to replace her sister.
Oh, you don't have to apologize, Dan! Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. Otherwise, there'd be no point on discussing any topic.
Yet she kept insisting on Clem leaving Sarah behind at the trailer or "pull me up" after the deck collapsed.
Jane had lived a—suspiciously—similar situation before, where she and her sister were trapped in a room and the only exit was a skylight. There was literally no way in which Jamie would've gotten out without acting, and she wouldn't move. Gravity prevented Jane from lifting her sister and throwing her up and throw the skylight. Jane had to leave her behind, not by choice, because the alternative was being torn apart by walkers.
Then we have Sarah's case, which, like I said, is suspiciously similar. Sarah wouldn't move either. Jane possibly had flashbacks of her sister's death, which would explain why she starts talking about the situation right after they get out. Realistically, who would think that punching a kid in the middle of an anxiety attack would help? It's great that Clem thought about that, but what would've been the alternative if she hadn't?
Even if letting the timer run out it doesn't change the fact that she said the things that she did like "just leave her Clem." I can guarantee you if Clem wasn't around and Jane was on her own, she would not have tried to save Sarah, she would have robbed from Arvo, she would have sent those people away, she wouldn't have tried to save Luke. In my opinion the only reason she determinantly did those things is because Clem was there.
No but that's because Clem was with her. Like i said before, I am pretty certain if she was alone she would have ditched the baby first chance she'd get.
I don't have much to say here, to be honest. I believe otherwise, but other than explaining why, it doesn't make any difference, because we haven't seen what would've happened if Clem hadn't been there.
But is it not selfish leaving AJ in a freezing car with a window slightly open (yes for him to breathe) but that could have allowed walkers to get their hands in, pull out the glass and kill him don't you think? Because AJ is still a human being and just because he can't talk she still did what she did which in my eyes was selfish towards him.
Still, the fact that the window was down makes me believe that she did think about AJ. If she didn't give a crap about him she would've left him on the side of the road, or buried him on snow. Or something along those lines. Clementine wasn't there at the time, so going by your reasoning, she would've taken the chance of putting him down.
Her intentions of "proving a point" to Clem [about] Kenny was meant in good faith looking out for her but was a really bad and stupid thing to do because she knew what would happen and if she hadn't done it then nothing would have happened.
That is, unless something really would've happened. Which most likely would, because staying out in the open only prolongs the fact that you'll come across bandits, or catch a cold and die, or get bitten. We can't deny the fact that Kenny was going to explode sometime if the fight hadn't taken place. That could've inevitably harmed Clementine.
Agreed. I can't tell you how much i hated how damn stupid the writing was for episode 5 in the handling of AJ.
Good to know.
Why didn't Jane shout at that he was alive in a car just over there? Because people assume he wouldn't listen? Maybe he wouldn't have but why didn't she even try? It made no sense to me.
I'm guessing she didn't think about that, and instead believed that asking Clem for some help would have a better chance of gettting her out of it. I don't know either, but to me it seems like people—not you in particular—make her out to be some master manipulator who would successfully complete their plan or die trying. I'm not even sure she was planning a fight in the first place, just getting Kenny fired up.
Plus she told Clem to stay out of it right?
Again, I don't think she planned for someone to get killed.
It's amazing how different each person's opinion is to the S2 endings. They definitely did a good job dividing opinions.
The Kenny vs Jane situation sure polarized this entire forum. I suppose they did the job right? At the expense of putting virtually everyone here against one another's backs. As long as it remains civilized, I don't have a problem with it.
I believe that points toward her not being a selfish person.
Yet she kept insisting on Clem leaving Sarah behind at the trailer or "… morepull me up" after the deck collapsed. Even if letting the timer run out it doesn't change the fact that she said the things that she did like "just leave her Clem." I can guarantee you if Clem wasn't around and Jane was on her own, she would not have tried to save Sarah, she would have robbed from Arvo, she would have sent those people away, she wouldn't have tried to save Luke. In my opinion the only reason she determinantly did those things is because Clem was there.
Jane wanted to show that to Clem, so that she would realize that staying around him is that risky and unpredictable. That is the opposite of what a selfish person would do—she put herself in danger so that a small girl she barely knew wouldn't have to.
But is it not selfish leaving AJ in a freezing car with a window slightly o… [view original content]
Mine as well and She did say to stay out of it no matter what happens and to just trust her. So I did....then she went and got killed with her own knife, that she brought to the fight... Almost funny in a weird way.
That is quite true, although it doesn't remove Kenny as an obstacle for Clementine to go with Jane, especially if Clementine wants to take AJ with her and Kenny knows he's alive. Jane hiding AJ may have been the only way for Jane and Clementine to take AJ with them, not entirely sure if Kenny would be willing to go back to Howe's having reached as far as they have on their way to Wellington.
I agree, if AJ was alive and present, Kenny may have been less aggressive in the fight or he could've been just as aggressive, it's difficult to know as the way he could see it is that Jane is taking the people he loves away from him either way, unless Kenny ultimately decides on going back to Howe's with them or deciding that they would be better off without him, the scenario would've just ended in violence again I think. Although it's really difficult to say as all we can do is assume based on what we know.
In a scenario with the player actually allowed to oppose the plan to go to Wellington, and supports Jane's idea to go back to Howe's, then I… more can't see Jane committing to the plan where she fake's the baby's death, considering that she would now know that Clementine is on her side, so Jane would see no need to instigate a fight between her and Kenny.
From that point, I think Jane would have either tried to persuade Clementine to abandon Kenny during his search for more petrol, or will have waited until he comes back to tell him that they're splitting up and going on their way, as either way it's two people against one when it comes down to searching for Wellington. And as you say, Kenny will most likely try to instigate the fight himself to stop Jane from taking Clementine and the baby away from him, as he would never agree to the plan to go back to Howe's.
A fight between the two may have been inevitable, but unless Kenny was willing to… [view original content]
YOUR Clem and I was talking about Clem HERSELF
There is no definitive Clementine. She is supposed to be modeled after our choices. T… morehat's why there is no Clementine "herself".
You ignored about 80% of my comment, so I'm not going to bother going any further.
You seem to be mistaking my criticism of Jane for justification of Kenny's actions. I'm not justifying either. His actions were deplorable which is why in this situation, the neutral path (Clementine being alone) is the best and wisest path, (also finishes her character arc for Season 2, her being able to handle herself alone to some extent and whatnot).
I'm not justifying Kenny's actions, merely comparing the reasons between the two, also nor did I claim Jane was some "psychologically manipulator", like you seem to think. Merely I said she psychologically manipulated someone which is an extremely easy thing to do. If my mother died, and someone talked me out of doing something risky or harming myself by saying "Your mother wouldn't want you to do that," that is psychological manipulation. It can be used for good or for bad, but it is manipulation nonetheless.
Jane is clever, she knew exactly what she was doing. But do you know the difference between Jane and Kenny?
Whereas Kenny also got under her skin, claiming that "nobody loves you" and "you're nothing", Kenny did the one thing Jane didn't. He asked her to stop. He warned her repeatedly and told her not to talk about his family. She knew from then on, that it was a sensitive topic and she continued, raising her voice and continuing to claim how all the people Kenny had left, Sarita, AJ and Clementine were/are all scared of him, more than they love him. It was clear she was not only retaliating but doing so in a way to push him.
The reason I think Jane wasn't in the right however, is her treatment of AJ. She knew Clementine loved AJ, that Clementine had a close relationship with them. In, 'No Going Back', Jane knows rightly so that Clementine loves AJ and not only that but Kenny does too. Her putting AJ in a car (which by the way would be cold, if walkers heard him crying they could have broken the glass and he could've been cut, if no one heard them cry and Jane was overpowered then they would have possibly never found AJ. But the fact she endangered AJ "just to prove a point" as Clementine put it, showed that she thought she knew what was best for Clem and she was willing to hurt her in order to make her see.
At any point in the fight, Jane could have stopped, she could have told Kenny, she could have told Clementine, she could have told them both AJ was safe and well. What if Clementine got hurt in the fight, trying to get them to stop? She pretty much did when the two knocked her over and her wound reopened. Her putting Clementine through that mental trauma was unforgivable and made me know that she had gone too far.
Like I said, I greatly appreciate her being concerned for Clementine, especially around Kenny, because it seemed as if she was the only character that was scared of Kenny for Clementine unlike others such as Mike and Bonnie who didn't really seem to care for Clementine's safety. If she wanted to prove how dangerous Kenny was, in order to give Clementine a choice, then fine. But like both you and her said, "the execution was the messy part" and it showed me someone who could never be trusted to be alone with Clementine, as it did with Kenny who went out of his way to murder her (even if AJ did die, Kenny had no proof that she did it on purpose).
Neither of them should be trusted with Clementine, not Kenny but especially not Jane.
Even still, there were moments in which she could have changed topic, in which she could have not said anything, yet she continued.
… moreAfter the little argument about Wellington, Jane said "Whatever. I give up." and put her feet on the dashboard, where Kenny, unnecessarily, pushed her feet off of it. Which escalated the argument.
And so what? She responded to the shit he was giving her. You can't blame her for responding when being provoked, especially when he told her that she was nothing and that no one cared about her.
Kenny only meant to insult her, to get under her skin and hurt her feelings because she was angry.
"Only meant to insult her"? How the hell is that even a justification? His reasoning behind that was because she disagreed on going to Wellington, which she eventually gave up on disagreeing to.
Jane wanted to do the same, yet she was psychologically manipulating and purposefully hoped Kenny snapped
… [view original content]
Fully agreed. This point, this point right here, would have been the exact moment I stopped taking the out-of-nowhere conflict between their characters seriously. If I ever would have.
Considering Jane ditched Clementine at the end of episode 4, having her plead for Clementine to stay if you shoot Kenny came out of nowhere, storywise.
EDIT: You can ignore this and head straight to the debate. Thought I should tag @BetterToSleep since they enjoy reading my Jane posts.
Jane is clever, she knew exactly what she was doing.
If you're talking about the argument in the car, there was no thought out plan to it. It looked to me as if she just started throwing all these comments at him because of what he first said to her. Yes, you're right. She knew what she was doing, and that was giving back to Kenny was he first dished out. But again, I'm not going to deny that she took it too far with the comments.
Kenny did the one thing Jane didn't. He asked her to stop.
"Asked" her to stop? I don't think he was "asking" her to stop when he said "You mouth off about my family, and I will fucking end you." Sounds to me like a threat. And again, she had barely even dug in at that point. At least Jane tried to avoid conflict with the Wellington subject by literally giving in to going to Wellington. And her reasons not to go were pretty logical.
He warned her repeatedly and told her not to talk about his family.
He threatened her*
She knew from then on, that it was a sensitive topic and she continued, raising her voice and continuing to claim how all the people Kenny had left, Sarita, AJ and Clementine were/are all scared of him, more than they love him
You know what I find funny? He threatened to leave her out in the cold by herself ("I'll pull this fuckin' car over"), and moments later when she told him to pull over because she didn't want to deal with Kenny, he made her feel bad for wanting to leave again. You mentioned in your other post that Jane could, at any moment, tried to have stopped the situation from escalating. But when she did, she was pulled back into it by Kenny. And straight after that is when she started digging deeper and brought up Sarita.
It was clear she was not only retaliating but doing so in a way to push him.
I honestly don't think she was doing it to push Kenny over the edge. He was pissing her off incredibly, she was extremely fed up with him, it's clearly obvious. The reason why she kept going about his family was because she was angry at him, not because she wanted to push him to the point of snapping. She was just so done with him at that point, he disregarded her more logical and safer reasoning as to why they should head back to Howe's, meaning he was going to skip out on guaranteed baby formula for AJ. For him to do that even aggravated me, and at that time, I was a Kenny fan. This might sound like I'm justifying her actions, but I'm not. I'm giving you clear reasoning as to what Jane was doing and why she was doing that.
Her putting AJ in a car (which by the way would be cold, if walkers heard him crying they could have broken the glass and he could've been cut, if no one heard them cry and Jane was overpowered then they would have possibly never found AJ. But the fact she endangered AJ "just to prove a point" as Clementine put it, showed that she thought she knew what was best for Clem and she was willing to hurt her in order to make her see.
I 100% agree with you here. What she did was incredibly stupid, that wasn't the right circumstance to "make a point." I'm not going to justify that whatsoever, and you seem to understand the reasoning to the point where I don't have to explain.
Jane knows rightly so that Clementine loves AJ
That all depends on the player. I mean, yeah, she was sulking when Jane came but without the baby in her arms, but what child wouldn't cry at a baby dying? So, really, you can't say that she does.
At any point in the fight, Jane could have stopped, she could have told Kenny, she could have told Clementine, she could have told them both AJ was safe and well.
Again, agreeing with you here. But, she said she didn't expect Kenny to take it that far, and I don't think she was lying. Like Kenny was, I really do believe that she was blinded by the anger she had for him because of the argument in the car. (Kenny was also mad about the baby, I know). Which seems like why she didn't confess about the baby at any stage during the fight, even when she had a knife inches away from her chest.
Her putting Clementine through that mental trauma was unforgivable and made me know that she had gone too far.
Alright, hold up. To you it might be unforgivable, but honestly, how? Again, going back to my previous comment about how Clementine actually caring for the baby was dependent of the player, I do hope that you mean the trauma of the two adults who were supposed to be taking care of her fighting.
And what about the mental trauma Kenny put her through for literally blaming someone's death on her? She even apologized for it (which it wasn't her fault in the first place), and he (figuratively) spat in her face for it. He tormented her, I could even go as far as to say he psychologically abused her for it. And from then on until the baby is born, she's hesitant around someone she was supposed to trust. Someone she should have been the most safest with. We even see Kenny do this again to Jane when she only hinted that the baby had died, he came back at her with fists flying. She even said "it was an accident, Kenny" and he STILL wanted to hurt her, basically giving her the blame for AJ "dying."
I don't mean to water down what Jane did, but all she did was subtly hint that the baby died and pursued a fight with Kenny. At least she didn't blame AJ's "death" on Clem and torment her about it.
But like both you and her said, "the execution was the messy part" and it showed me someone who could never be trusted to be alone with Clementine
Neither of them should be trusted with Clementine, not Kenny but especially not Jane.
Really? Like... really? You're going to go as far as to say that? I'm not going to tell you you're wrong about that because it's your opinion, but I'm gonna try and appeal to you.
I can agree with you on not letting Kenny be Clementine's caretaker, he's got the mental state of a twig. He's easily angered, violent, and aggressive. He's irrational, and even has the capability of being irrational to Clementine herself, as he's shown in the past. He isn't fit to take care of any child, nor a baby, and can barely take care of himself without thinking suicidally. If Kenny doesn't have someone he loves by his side, that twig-mentality of his is either on the verge of breaking, or breaks entirely.
But Jane? It's not like Jane completely lost her marbles. She's still capable of taking care of a child, and more importantly a little girl, because when Clem hits puberty, Jane would easily be able to give her the help she needs and teach her about that kind of stuff. Not to mention that Clem is a very mature child, she's got the mentality of someone at least over 15 (given they don't know what sex is lol). So it's not like Jane would have to take on the role of being a parent figure, considering that's a very important role, but more a care taker. But hey, who's to say Jane can't adapt to motherly instincts? Or that their relationship could grow into somewhat of a mother/daughter type? Also, they seem to handle sticky situations pretty well together, for example, when they both went to find Sarah and Luke, Jane even took the time to teach her a couple of things, and even push her out of harms way.
So, hopefully, you reconsider that maybe it's not Jane that should "especially" not be trusted with Clementine, but rather Kenny, and just Kenny.
You seem to be mistaking my criticism of Jane for justification of Kenny's actions. I'm not justifying either. His actions were deplorable w… morehich is why in this situation, the neutral path (Clementine being alone) is the best and wisest path, (also finishes her character arc for Season 2, her being able to handle herself alone to some extent and whatnot).
I'm not justifying Kenny's actions, merely comparing the reasons between the two, also nor did I claim Jane was some "psychologically manipulator", like you seem to think. Merely I said she psychologically manipulated someone which is an extremely easy thing to do. If my mother died, and someone talked me out of doing something risky or harming myself by saying "Your mother wouldn't want you to do that," that is psychological manipulation. It can be used for good or for bad, but it is manipulation nonetheless.
Jane is clever, she knew exactly what she was doing. But do you know the diff… [view original content]
It was pretty expectable to see Kenny mad after the newborn was just killed, a day after everyone promising they'd raise him good, and Jane did not even explain (in this case lied, made up a good story) how the death of a little baby happened. Pretty suspicous, but okay. She didn't explain,and Kenny was nowhere close to being patient.
She should have showed Clementine, in my humble opinion, how dangerous he was some other way, because just coming back with no explaining why a little innocent baby died was surely an emotional trigger and Kenny being half-broken and all of that yeah...not good.
Neither of them is absouletly right nor wrong, it really is a gray area so trying to prove one person was 100% right is foolish, and no, this isn't directed at you.
You explained it pretty well but it was pretty shitty of Jane not telling Clementine or Kenny in the middle of the fight that BABY IS ALIVE and it was all a big sad show. But she continued to fight with Kenny, pushing Clementien away and of course got so filled up with her emotions that she wanted to kill him. Her plan changed.
"The execution was the messy part."
Jane's reasoning, in my opinion, were right. She didn't want to get rid of Kenny for shits and gigs, … moreshe did it because of how violent and aggressive he acted. It's just the way she went about it, what with hiding the baby and all, made the plan fail (depending on whether you shot Kenny or not). Overall, the plan wasn't even to get rid of him. It was to show Clementine how dangerous Kenny was and for her to make a choice about staying with him or not.
Again, it's just my opinion as to why she was in the right. I know what she did was shitty, hence why I said "the execution was the messy part."
Looking back at my comment now, this really isn't a right or wrong situation, more of a good or bad. And to me, Jane's reasoning was good and not bad, given she was the one who had the most logical and safer plan (to go back to Howe's) since following an at-the-time rumor was basically suicide. And her safer plan was mostly for the safety and well-being of AJ (there was baby formula there), but Clementine also and Kenny.
it was pretty shitty of Jane not telling Clementine or Kenny in the middle of the fight that BABY IS ALIVE and it was all a big sad show
I'm going to save you some scrolling up and searching through and copy & paste what I said to another user about that.
Just to clarify, I'm not justifying, just trying to give my best explanation of Jane's possible reasoning behind no confessing.
"But, she said she didn't expect Kenny to take it that far, and I don't think she was lying. Like Kenny was, I really do believe that she was blinded by the anger she had for him because of the argument in the car. (Kenny was also mad about the baby, I know). Which seems like why she didn't confess about the baby at any stage during the fight, even when she had a knife inches away from her chest."
It was pretty expectable to see Kenny mad after the newborn was just killed, a day after everyone promising they'd raise him good, and Jane … moredid not even explain (in this case lied, made up a good story) how the death of a little baby happened. Pretty suspicous, but okay. She didn't explain,and Kenny was nowhere close to being patient.
She should have showed Clementine, in my humble opinion, how dangerous he was some other way, because just coming back with no explaining why a little innocent baby died was surely an emotional trigger and Kenny being half-broken and all of that yeah...not good.
Neither of them is absouletly right nor wrong, it really is a gray area so trying to prove one person was 100% right is foolish, and no, this isn't directed at you.
You explained it pretty well but it was pretty shitty of Jane not telling Clementine or Kenny in the middle of the fight that BABY IS ALIVE and it was all a big sad show. But she con… [view original content]
I also agree that her plan was better because Wellington was just a rumor for all we knew. Too bad the whole group couldn't have gone just together.
Just to clarify, I'm not justifying, just trying to give my best explanation of Jane's possible reasoning behind no confessing.
Fair enough. All discussions about this matter should be done like that anyway. Your explanation is pretty good, I can see that being the reason why she didn't tell a word about it. Thanks for your explanation anyways! Now I can't even decide what ending to choose in my game, oh boy..
Again, it's just my opinion as to why she was in the right. I know what she did was shitty, hence why I said "the execution was the messy pa… morert."
Looking back at my comment now, this really isn't a right or wrong situation, more of a good or bad. And to me, Jane's reasoning was good and not bad, given she was the one who had the most logical and safer plan (to go back to Howe's) since following an at-the-time rumor was basically suicide. And her safer plan was mostly for the safety and well-being of AJ (there was baby formula there), but Clementine also and Kenny.
it was pretty shitty of Jane not telling Clementine or Kenny in the middle of the fight that BABY IS ALIVE and it was all a big sad show
I'm going to save you some scrolling up and searching through and copy & paste what I said to another user about that.
Just to clarify, I'm not justifying, just trying to give my best explanation of Jane's possible reasoning … [view original content]
I also agree that her plan was better because Wellington was just a rumor for all we knew. Too bad the whole group couldn't have gone just t… moreogether.
Just to clarify, I'm not justifying, just trying to give my best explanation of Jane's possible reasoning behind no confessing.
Fair enough. All discussions about this matter should be done like that anyway. Your explanation is pretty good, I can see that being the reason why she didn't tell a word about it. Thanks for your explanation anyways! Now I can't even decide what ending to choose in my game, oh boy..
I'm still deciding whether I want to invite the family in or not. For some reason, my first thought was "they're gonna use the baby formula for Gill" and then it was "wait what the fuck"
I think I'm gonna invite the family in lmao.
And I'm 100% sure the endings will, hence the "different approach" Telltale said they were going to make.
"they're gonna use the baby formula for Gill" and then it was "wait what the fuck"
hahaha omg
The more the merrier I guess. But making a community is amazing, should've doen it before because the very situation is interesting and it'd be tough if there were more people.
I'm still deciding whether I want to invite the family in or not. For some reason, my first thought was "they're gonna use the baby formula … morefor Gill" and then it was "wait what the fuck"
I think I'm gonna invite the family in lmao.
And I'm 100% sure the endings will, hence the "different approach" Telltale said they were going to make.
"they're gonna use the baby formula for Gill" and then it was "wait what the fuck"
hahaha omg
The more the merrier I guess. But m… moreaking a community is amazing, should've doen it before because the very situation is interesting and it'd be tough if there were more people.
at least the reason behind him "forcing" her to be around her was what he believed was his responsibility to look after her
Shit, he spends 3 months with her at a Motor-Inn where they barely talked, she witnessed his mental break down, and don't see each other for another 2 years, and all of a sudden he thinks she's his responsibility?
Jane's reasons aren't malicious in anyway if that's what you're feeling about them.
Point is, neither of them asked her what she wanted to do
Well, given they're adults with more life experience and knowledge, I don't think they'd ask a child where they should go to survive. "Hey Clem, where do you wanna go now? It's not like you just woke up from being unconscious due to being shot or anything. How about you make this very important decision?"
I mean, us as the player chooses what Clementine wants. And the choice was either Wellington or Howe's. No matter what we picked, one of them was still going to disagree.
And it's not like the situation started out as a "Pick Kenny or Jane to go with" kinda thing.
Kenny, the over-protective who forced Clem to be around him even if she didn't want to, being "her friends", right? I don't understand that … moreline of reasoning.
at least the reason behind him "forcing" her to be around her was what he believed was his responsibility to look after her where as with Jane i feel her reasons for wanting her round was completely different. Point is, neither of them asked her what she wanted to do
Comments
It was stupid. She wanted Clem to ditch her friends
what
Saying Jane is worse than Kenny is like saying Hitler did nothing wrong.
Both statements aren't true lmao.
what
ohhh, you're doing that thing that I did. hah.
what
Thank you for bringing this up, @InfiniteDawn. It made me realize how serious the double standard is.
Kenny, the over-protective who forced Clem to be around him even if she didn't want to, being "her friends", right? I don't understand that line of reasoning.
I don't understand Jane manipulating Clem either.
no she was selfish and greedy, it led to her demise.
I would like an example of a situation where she legitimately manipulated Clementine for her own benefit. I could've forgotten if that happened. I'll evaluate whether I agree with it, and if I do, you've got this one.
First of all, what was wrong with her leaving Aj in a frozen car where he could have died by hyporthemia? That's what selfish people do, ditch friends, companions to care for themselves. If that was for provoking Kenny, then it was so unnecesary. Provoking a man who just lost a lot of his friends is just no. This a zombie apocalypse, all you have to do is scavenge supplies, find/make a bunker where you can sleep/eat safely and defend yourself from walkers and crazy people (I don't think Kenny was that crazy, he wasn't about to kill Clem or anyone else unless someone provoked him, was he? He was trying to get her to a safe place). The only reason AJ survived in the frozen car is because of plot armor. If Jane thought she was about to die, then all she had to do is tell Kenny AJ was alive. She clearly didn't want to tell the truth because she did want Clem to shoot him. What would have happened if Clem didn't hear AJ crying? Would Jane have told her the truth? If Clem wasn't the PC, what would she have REALLY done? I think she would have shot Kenny and not forgive Jane. Clem forgiving Jane sounds so unrealistic, so disturbing, I can't even listen to that line, that's not the Clem I know.
I agree with you. The plan was fucking stupid, reckless and dangerous. If she wanted to kill Kenny, she coulda just stabbed him in his sleep. But nooooo, she had to leave a baby in a frozen car to die.
AJ could've died from hypothermia in that car as much as he could've under Kenny's, Jane's or Clementine's care. It doesn't make any difference.
Why is it that she has taken care of a little girl and a newborn baby for over nine days, in the Howe's endings? If you let the timer run, Jane herself will tell a three-people family to come in on the community. I believe that points toward her not being a selfish person.
I really want everyone to understand that Jane didn't provoke Kenny out of joy or jealously. If she wanted him dead, she could've killed him in his sleep. Jane provoked Kenny to show Clem how dangerous the situation could turn if something that enraged him happened. What if AJ was left under Clementine's care and he choked, or passed out due to cold? Would Kenny realize that it was an accident and that there was nothing Clem could do to prevent it? I believe the answer is no, not because he is a bad man, but because he cares about them so much—totally out of the blue—that if something happened to either he wouldn't be able to restrain himself. Jane wanted to show that to Clem, so that she would realize that staying around him is that risky and unpredictable. That is the opposite of what a selfish person would do—she put herself in danger so that a small girl she barely knew wouldn't have to.
I agree on that, though I believe that, realistically, AJ should've died the day after he was born. He shouldn't be expected not to catch a cold under such circumstances.
Honestly, do you believe she was still playing along the plan while her chest was an inch from the tip of the serrated knife? I don't think so.
If she was dead, she wouldn't have. If she was alive, I think she would've. AJ is still under her care nine day later, which, in my opinion, proves that she wasn't attempting to get rid of him.
That is entirely subjective, but I think that would depend on the relationship that the Clementine in question had with Kenny and Jane. My Clementine would've forgiven her.
"You're both being children" - as Clementine said. They were both as bad as each other
at least the reason behind him "forcing" her to be around her was what he believed was his responsibility to look after her where as with Jane i feel her reasons for wanting her round was completely different. Point is, neither of them asked her what she wanted to do
YOUR Clem and I was talking about Clem HERSELF
Jane should have told him the truth before he made anything worse. She did have a lot of time. Her plan was reckless anyway. Also she was getting attached to her like she wanted to replace her sister.
Yet she kept insisting on Clem leaving Sarah behind at the trailer or "pull me up" after the deck collapsed. Even if letting the timer run out it doesn't change the fact that she said the things that she did like "just leave her Clem." I can guarantee you if Clem wasn't around and Jane was on her own, she would not have tried to save Sarah, she would have robbed from Arvo, she would have sent those people away, she wouldn't have tried to save Luke. In my opinion the only reason she determinantly did those things is because Clem was there.
But is it not selfish leaving AJ in a freezing car with a window slightly open (yes for him to breathe) but that could have allowed walkers to get their hands in, pull out the glass and kill him don't you think? Because AJ is still a human being and just because he can't talk she still did what she did which in my eyes was selfish towards him. Her intentions of "proving a point" to Clem avout Kenny was meant in good faith looking out for her but was a really bad and stupid thing to do because she knew what would happen and if she hadn't done it then nothing would have happened.
Agreed. I can't tell you how much i hated how damn stupid the writing was for episode 5 in the handling of AJ
Why didn't Jane shout at that he was alive in a car just over there? Because people assume he wouldn't listen? Maybe he wouldn't have but why didn't she even try? It made no sense to me. Plus she told Clem to stay out of it right?
No but that's because Clem was with her. Like i said before, I am pretty certain if she was alone she would have ditched the baby first chance she'd get. Sorry if you disagree but that's what i think.
It's amazing how different each person's opinion is to the S2 endings. They definitely did a good job dividing opinions
There is no definitive Clementine. She is supposed to be modeled after our choices. That's why there is no Clementine "herself".
You ignored about 80% of my comment, so I'm not going to bother going any further.
Oh, you don't have to apologize, Dan! Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. Otherwise, there'd be no point on discussing any topic.
Jane had lived a—suspiciously—similar situation before, where she and her sister were trapped in a room and the only exit was a skylight. There was literally no way in which Jamie would've gotten out without acting, and she wouldn't move. Gravity prevented Jane from lifting her sister and throwing her up and throw the skylight. Jane had to leave her behind, not by choice, because the alternative was being torn apart by walkers.
Then we have Sarah's case, which, like I said, is suspiciously similar. Sarah wouldn't move either. Jane possibly had flashbacks of her sister's death, which would explain why she starts talking about the situation right after they get out. Realistically, who would think that punching a kid in the middle of an anxiety attack would help? It's great that Clem thought about that, but what would've been the alternative if she hadn't?
I don't have much to say here, to be honest. I believe otherwise, but other than explaining why, it doesn't make any difference, because we haven't seen what would've happened if Clem hadn't been there.
Still, the fact that the window was down makes me believe that she did think about AJ. If she didn't give a crap about him she would've left him on the side of the road, or buried him on snow. Or something along those lines. Clementine wasn't there at the time, so going by your reasoning, she would've taken the chance of putting him down.
That is, unless something really would've happened. Which most likely would, because staying out in the open only prolongs the fact that you'll come across bandits, or catch a cold and die, or get bitten. We can't deny the fact that Kenny was going to explode sometime if the fight hadn't taken place. That could've inevitably harmed Clementine.
Good to know.
I'm guessing she didn't think about that, and instead believed that asking Clem for some help would have a better chance of gettting her out of it. I don't know either, but to me it seems like people—not you in particular—make her out to be some master manipulator who would successfully complete their plan or die trying. I'm not even sure she was planning a fight in the first place, just getting Kenny fired up.
Again, I don't think she planned for someone to get killed.
The Kenny vs Jane situation sure polarized this entire forum. I suppose they did the job right? At the expense of putting virtually everyone here against one another's backs. As long as it remains civilized, I don't have a problem with it.
Mine as well and She did say to stay out of it no matter what happens and to just trust her. So I did....then she went and got killed with her own knife, that she brought to the fight... Almost funny in a weird way.
That is quite true, although it doesn't remove Kenny as an obstacle for Clementine to go with Jane, especially if Clementine wants to take AJ with her and Kenny knows he's alive. Jane hiding AJ may have been the only way for Jane and Clementine to take AJ with them, not entirely sure if Kenny would be willing to go back to Howe's having reached as far as they have on their way to Wellington.
I agree, if AJ was alive and present, Kenny may have been less aggressive in the fight or he could've been just as aggressive, it's difficult to know as the way he could see it is that Jane is taking the people he loves away from him either way, unless Kenny ultimately decides on going back to Howe's with them or deciding that they would be better off without him, the scenario would've just ended in violence again I think. Although it's really difficult to say as all we can do is assume based on what we know.
I'm glad more people are coming to realize this.
I never said one was worse than the other.
You seem to be mistaking my criticism of Jane for justification of Kenny's actions. I'm not justifying either. His actions were deplorable which is why in this situation, the neutral path (Clementine being alone) is the best and wisest path, (also finishes her character arc for Season 2, her being able to handle herself alone to some extent and whatnot).
I'm not justifying Kenny's actions, merely comparing the reasons between the two, also nor did I claim Jane was some "psychologically manipulator", like you seem to think. Merely I said she psychologically manipulated someone which is an extremely easy thing to do. If my mother died, and someone talked me out of doing something risky or harming myself by saying "Your mother wouldn't want you to do that," that is psychological manipulation. It can be used for good or for bad, but it is manipulation nonetheless.
Jane is clever, she knew exactly what she was doing. But do you know the difference between Jane and Kenny?
Whereas Kenny also got under her skin, claiming that "nobody loves you" and "you're nothing", Kenny did the one thing Jane didn't. He asked her to stop. He warned her repeatedly and told her not to talk about his family. She knew from then on, that it was a sensitive topic and she continued, raising her voice and continuing to claim how all the people Kenny had left, Sarita, AJ and Clementine were/are all scared of him, more than they love him. It was clear she was not only retaliating but doing so in a way to push him.
The reason I think Jane wasn't in the right however, is her treatment of AJ. She knew Clementine loved AJ, that Clementine had a close relationship with them. In, 'No Going Back', Jane knows rightly so that Clementine loves AJ and not only that but Kenny does too. Her putting AJ in a car (which by the way would be cold, if walkers heard him crying they could have broken the glass and he could've been cut, if no one heard them cry and Jane was overpowered then they would have possibly never found AJ. But the fact she endangered AJ "just to prove a point" as Clementine put it, showed that she thought she knew what was best for Clem and she was willing to hurt her in order to make her see.
At any point in the fight, Jane could have stopped, she could have told Kenny, she could have told Clementine, she could have told them both AJ was safe and well. What if Clementine got hurt in the fight, trying to get them to stop? She pretty much did when the two knocked her over and her wound reopened. Her putting Clementine through that mental trauma was unforgivable and made me know that she had gone too far.
Like I said, I greatly appreciate her being concerned for Clementine, especially around Kenny, because it seemed as if she was the only character that was scared of Kenny for Clementine unlike others such as Mike and Bonnie who didn't really seem to care for Clementine's safety. If she wanted to prove how dangerous Kenny was, in order to give Clementine a choice, then fine. But like both you and her said, "the execution was the messy part" and it showed me someone who could never be trusted to be alone with Clementine, as it did with Kenny who went out of his way to murder her (even if AJ did die, Kenny had no proof that she did it on purpose).
Neither of them should be trusted with Clementine, not Kenny but especially not Jane.
Hahahaha!
Hahahahaha!
Fully agreed. This point, this point right here, would have been the exact moment I stopped taking the out-of-nowhere conflict between their characters seriously. If I ever would have.
I understand only some of those words, but I understand enough to think you might be in the wrong thread. Possibly the wrong forum.
Considering Jane ditched Clementine at the end of episode 4, having her plead for Clementine to stay if you shoot Kenny came out of nowhere, storywise.
EDIT: You can ignore this and head straight to the debate. Thought I should tag @BetterToSleep since they enjoy reading my Jane posts.
If you're talking about the argument in the car, there was no thought out plan to it. It looked to me as if she just started throwing all these comments at him because of what he first said to her. Yes, you're right. She knew what she was doing, and that was giving back to Kenny was he first dished out. But again, I'm not going to deny that she took it too far with the comments.
"Asked" her to stop? I don't think he was "asking" her to stop when he said "You mouth off about my family, and I will fucking end you." Sounds to me like a threat. And again, she had barely even dug in at that point. At least Jane tried to avoid conflict with the Wellington subject by literally giving in to going to Wellington. And her reasons not to go were pretty logical.
He threatened her*
You know what I find funny? He threatened to leave her out in the cold by herself ("I'll pull this fuckin' car over"), and moments later when she told him to pull over because she didn't want to deal with Kenny, he made her feel bad for wanting to leave again. You mentioned in your other post that Jane could, at any moment, tried to have stopped the situation from escalating. But when she did, she was pulled back into it by Kenny. And straight after that is when she started digging deeper and brought up Sarita.
I honestly don't think she was doing it to push Kenny over the edge. He was pissing her off incredibly, she was extremely fed up with him, it's clearly obvious. The reason why she kept going about his family was because she was angry at him, not because she wanted to push him to the point of snapping. She was just so done with him at that point, he disregarded her more logical and safer reasoning as to why they should head back to Howe's, meaning he was going to skip out on guaranteed baby formula for AJ. For him to do that even aggravated me, and at that time, I was a Kenny fan. This might sound like I'm justifying her actions, but I'm not. I'm giving you clear reasoning as to what Jane was doing and why she was doing that.
I 100% agree with you here. What she did was incredibly stupid, that wasn't the right circumstance to "make a point." I'm not going to justify that whatsoever, and you seem to understand the reasoning to the point where I don't have to explain.
That all depends on the player. I mean, yeah, she was sulking when Jane came but without the baby in her arms, but what child wouldn't cry at a baby dying? So, really, you can't say that she does.
Again, agreeing with you here. But, she said she didn't expect Kenny to take it that far, and I don't think she was lying. Like Kenny was, I really do believe that she was blinded by the anger she had for him because of the argument in the car. (Kenny was also mad about the baby, I know). Which seems like why she didn't confess about the baby at any stage during the fight, even when she had a knife inches away from her chest.
Alright, hold up. To you it might be unforgivable, but honestly, how? Again, going back to my previous comment about how Clementine actually caring for the baby was dependent of the player, I do hope that you mean the trauma of the two adults who were supposed to be taking care of her fighting.
And what about the mental trauma Kenny put her through for literally blaming someone's death on her? She even apologized for it (which it wasn't her fault in the first place), and he (figuratively) spat in her face for it. He tormented her, I could even go as far as to say he psychologically abused her for it. And from then on until the baby is born, she's hesitant around someone she was supposed to trust. Someone she should have been the most safest with. We even see Kenny do this again to Jane when she only hinted that the baby had died, he came back at her with fists flying. She even said "it was an accident, Kenny" and he STILL wanted to hurt her, basically giving her the blame for AJ "dying."
I don't mean to water down what Jane did, but all she did was subtly hint that the baby died and pursued a fight with Kenny. At least she didn't blame AJ's "death" on Clem and torment her about it.
Really? Like... really? You're going to go as far as to say that? I'm not going to tell you you're wrong about that because it's your opinion, but I'm gonna try and appeal to you.
I can agree with you on not letting Kenny be Clementine's caretaker, he's got the mental state of a twig. He's easily angered, violent, and aggressive. He's irrational, and even has the capability of being irrational to Clementine herself, as he's shown in the past. He isn't fit to take care of any child, nor a baby, and can barely take care of himself without thinking suicidally. If Kenny doesn't have someone he loves by his side, that twig-mentality of his is either on the verge of breaking, or breaks entirely.
But Jane? It's not like Jane completely lost her marbles. She's still capable of taking care of a child, and more importantly a little girl, because when Clem hits puberty, Jane would easily be able to give her the help she needs and teach her about that kind of stuff. Not to mention that Clem is a very mature child, she's got the mentality of someone at least over 15 (given they don't know what sex is lol). So it's not like Jane would have to take on the role of being a parent figure, considering that's a very important role, but more a care taker. But hey, who's to say Jane can't adapt to motherly instincts? Or that their relationship could grow into somewhat of a mother/daughter type? Also, they seem to handle sticky situations pretty well together, for example, when they both went to find Sarah and Luke, Jane even took the time to teach her a couple of things, and even push her out of harms way.
So, hopefully, you reconsider that maybe it's not Jane that should "especially" not be trusted with Clementine, but rather Kenny, and just Kenny.
It was pretty expectable to see Kenny mad after the newborn was just killed, a day after everyone promising they'd raise him good, and Jane did not even explain (in this case lied, made up a good story) how the death of a little baby happened. Pretty suspicous, but okay. She didn't explain,and Kenny was nowhere close to being patient.
She should have showed Clementine, in my humble opinion, how dangerous he was some other way, because just coming back with no explaining why a little innocent baby died was surely an emotional trigger and Kenny being half-broken and all of that yeah...not good.
Neither of them is absouletly right nor wrong, it really is a gray area so trying to prove one person was 100% right is foolish, and no, this isn't directed at you.
You explained it pretty well but it was pretty shitty of Jane not telling Clementine or Kenny in the middle of the fight that BABY IS ALIVE and it was all a big sad show. But she continued to fight with Kenny, pushing Clementien away and of course got so filled up with her emotions that she wanted to kill him. Her plan changed.
Again, it's just my opinion as to why she was in the right. I know what she did was shitty, hence why I said "the execution was the messy part."
Looking back at my comment now, this really isn't a right or wrong situation, more of a good or bad. And to me, Jane's reasoning was good and not bad, given she was the one who had the most logical and safer plan (to go back to Howe's) since following an at-the-time rumor was basically suicide. And her safer plan was mostly for the safety and well-being of AJ (there was baby formula there), but Clementine also and Kenny.
I'm going to save you some scrolling up and searching through and copy & paste what I said to another user about that.
Just to clarify, I'm not justifying, just trying to give my best explanation of Jane's possible reasoning behind no confessing.
"But, she said she didn't expect Kenny to take it that far, and I don't think she was lying. Like Kenny was, I really do believe that she was blinded by the anger she had for him because of the argument in the car. (Kenny was also mad about the baby, I know). Which seems like why she didn't confess about the baby at any stage during the fight, even when she had a knife inches away from her chest."
I also agree that her plan was better because Wellington was just a rumor for all we knew. Too bad the whole group couldn't have gone just together.
Fair enough. All discussions about this matter should be done like that anyway. Your explanation is pretty good, I can see that being the reason why she didn't tell a word about it. Thanks for your explanation anyways! Now I can't even decide what ending to choose in my game, oh boy..
You're welcome!
And honestly, I feel like going back and leaving with Jane. (I went alone).
Oh so. I originally went with Jane and the family but changed it to Kenny. I hope the ending will have a big consequence in season 3.
I'm still deciding whether I want to invite the family in or not. For some reason, my first thought was "they're gonna use the baby formula for Gill" and then it was "wait what the fuck"
I think I'm gonna invite the family in lmao.
And I'm 100% sure the endings will, hence the "different approach" Telltale said they were going to make.
hahaha omg
The more the merrier I guess. But making a community is amazing, should've doen it before because the very situation is interesting and it'd be tough if there were more people.
Agreed.
Shit, he spends 3 months with her at a Motor-Inn where they barely talked, she witnessed his mental break down, and don't see each other for another 2 years, and all of a sudden he thinks she's his responsibility?
Jane's reasons aren't malicious in anyway if that's what you're feeling about them.
Well, given they're adults with more life experience and knowledge, I don't think they'd ask a child where they should go to survive. "Hey Clem, where do you wanna go now? It's not like you just woke up from being unconscious due to being shot or anything. How about you make this very important decision?"
I mean, us as the player chooses what Clementine wants. And the choice was either Wellington or Howe's. No matter what we picked, one of them was still going to disagree.
And it's not like the situation started out as a "Pick Kenny or Jane to go with" kinda thing.