Was Jane in the right
Do you think Jane should have made Kenny made on purpose. I think this was a stupid move and in my play through made her death worthless, plus she put the baby in danger in the process
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Do you think Jane should have made Kenny made on purpose. I think this was a stupid move and in my play through made her death worthless, plus she put the baby in danger in the process
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Helllll nahhhh she wasn't. Nuff said.
Exactly what I thought she made me mad because of that
[insert actual question here]
She was right to get Clementine to open her eyes, to realize how easily Kenny could hurt her if the situation set, even if it were accidental. What if Clem was left in charge of AJ and something happened to him? Do you really think he would be able to hold himself back, after all those times that he has exploded already? Would Kenny resort to suicide after he would've hurt her? Jane wanted to offer Clementine to take her and AJ with her, where neither would have to worry about the other becoming reckless and unstoppable.
The way she carried on her plan unfortunately got her killed, unless a third party—Clem—interfered. You see, she didn't really think through. How was she expecting Kenny to calm down after she insinuated AJ's death? Was she pretending to somehow get to the car before Kenny had killed her and tell him that AJ was safe? Was Clem supposed to get AJ?
In her own words,
More than that, the vague idea was good, but the plan and the execution were the messy parts.
I think, it was a really good plan,from Jane.
But, it did cost allot of work, she should have just put a knife in Kenny's back when he wasnt paying attention or something like that.
Jane had the right idea to explain to Clementine that going to Wellington, with no sense of direction nor adequate supplies and manpower to scan the entirety of the country for a safe haven no-one had evidence and weren't even sure that existed, all in the middle of a harsh blizzard that did nothing to stop the walker's advance, cuts off everyone's vision, and is risking everyone dying from hypothermia.
But the way she tried to persuade Clementine was completely and utterly idiotic, even for Jane and her survivalist attitude.
Jane appeared to be very out of touch with communicating with people, that the thought of simply dropping her 'fake the baby's death' plan and simply ask Clementine whether she agreed with Kenny's plan to go to Wellington or not didn't cross her mind. The majority of the mess between Kenny and Jane's fight to the death could have very well been avoided had Jane simply used common sense and just ask Clementine for her opinion, and not try to trick an already unstable man into thinking that the baby died under her care.
I disagree with the plan being good, it was stupid from beginning to end and only ended up needlessly provoking a highly stubborn and mentally unstable man into trying to kill you over the baby having died whilst under your care.
All Jane had to do was ask Clementine if she wanted to go to Wellington, if she felt safe around Kenny or not, if she trusts Jane to continue watching out for her, and if she wants to turn back to Howe's and stay safe inside the abandoned community.
IMO no, she basically pulled a "just a prank bro"
Jane would have a much better chance against an enraged Kenny than Clementine would. Jane provoked him to show her how out of hand the situation could get if she decided to stick with him, without Clem having to be the one chased down. I did say that I think the plan was messy, but the reason behind the plan is still selfless. After all, Jane can unintentionally give her life so that Clem would know how Kenny could get if something happened while AJ was under her care. I consider that as valuable knowledge to have in the Kenny ending.
No.
She was still risking AJ's life and counted on her survival because otherwise the baby wouldn't have been found, but of course he cried in the right moment because of... plot. Wanting to show Clementine that searching for a 50% chance imaginary place is a bad idea in cold weather and in apocalypse? Reasonable. Hiding a little baby and lying to already broken man just to prove point? Nah.
Jane didn't need to provoke Kenny to begin with, he was already a ticking time bomb. All Jane had to do was explain to him that she can't allow him to continue gambling with everyone's lives, along with the baby he supposedly cares for, just for a shaky theory that Wellington exists, and that she's prepared to use force if necessary if it means keeping everyone alive.
Her decision to immediately to fake the baby's death, instead of trying to convince Kenny and Clementine, ended up making her appear incredibly foolish, manipulative, and suicidal, especially when she had plenty of time to shout out to Kenny:
"I lied! The baby is fine, Kenny. I hid him in the car over there. And what did you try to do the entire time? Try to murder me for killing the baby when I never gave anyone the impression that I killed him, just that he died under my care because of the cold, the walkers, starvation, hell, anything that could have caused the baby to die, because you were too stubborn to forget about this stupid journey to a place you don't even know yourself that exists, when you're supposed to be taking care of Clementine and the baby and not gamble with all of our lives! Sure, what I did was wrong in the end, but you were going to kill me for something I've never done! And suppose if it was Clementine who was carrying the dead baby, who to say that you would have tried to kill her?! You're unstable and dangerous, Kenny, and we're turning back to Howe's, with or without you."
Instead, Jane stays quiet and continues to trick everyone that the baby is dead, and whether she lives or dies, her point would have not held much water given how she had other options to make her point across, and instead she chooses the plan that ends up killing someone, or herself, when no one had to die.
You, really think Kenny could still be reasoned with at that point.
If Jane would have said that, Kenny would have killed her for, hiding the baby.
No.
If Kenny were to continue to try and kill Jane for hiding the baby, after she has just confirmed that the baby is still alive and explained her reasoning for why she tricked Kenny, then I doubt many players would have sided with Kenny at that point. At that point, Kenny is shown to be capable of murdering someone who is not even guilty of the crime he accuses them, and had he continued to commit murder while failing to look at his own actions and how he's needlessly killing people for no justifiable reason, he would have lost a fair amount of supporters.
Personally, I don't think Kenny would have done this since he does himself mention why Jane says nothing about the baby being alive, which is after having killed her in one ending, which is why I had thought that Jane's plan was ridiculous.
Well, i personally have never seen the Kenny ending, so i didn't knew he mentioned that,however that does really suprises me.
But i think in, the heat of the moment, he would have still killed her, if he heard that she locked the baby in a car.
Because, he was really obsessed about the baby, and anyone who could do such a thing to his little precious would have been seen as a threat in his eyes.
No, Jane was worse than Kenny.
Definitely, throughout season 2, Kenny just kept getting worse and worse. His anger was always flaring up, kept starting fights (verbal/physical) within the group, made the majority of the group worried about him and some people even left. Kenny was becoming a sociopath.
While what she did was risky, it still proves the point regardless. Before she can even explain herself, Kenny is coming at her with murderous intent as he doesn't want to hear anything, proving his sense of reasoning is gone. While yes, I believe Kenny wanted what was best entirely for AJ and Clem, the lengths he would go to are just too drastic. In the scenario where Kenny lives, he should be racked with guilt and horrified with himself after he and Clem discover AJ was fine all along, but he never thinks twice about it.
Kenny was just one more bad thing happening to him before he completely lost it in my mind after episode 4. He had become a danger to anyone at that point and I'm glad he was dealt with.
Nah, her plan was absolutely terrible. But both admit their wrong doing only after all hell broke loose. Jane admits her idea was stupid and Kenny admits he lost it after being pushed. This was a no win situation for Clementine. I wonder though, if Jane didn't do it, where this group would be?
It was a stupid plan
No. Oh let me open your eyes by killing the one man who stayed with you since episode 1 in season 1 and risked his life for you many times because hes angry.
Nope. If Jane wanted to get rid of the shitsack, she should've nut-up and just killed the asshole.
I mean, how am I to believe that Jane is a "survivalist extraordinaire" if she can't do what's necessary to ensure her survival? If I were in a rapidly shrinking group of people who have literally tried abandoning me just to get away from a psycho cause they're too pussy to do anything other then tuck their tail between their legs... then you'd better believe I will.
Same thing happened in War of the Worlds. Ray had to kill Harlan cause he posed a very real threat by continuously screaming right under the aliens noses. Sometimes the only solution is the simplest.
Okay, sure dude.
Human willpower is stronger when placed in a life or death situation. So yes, I probably would kill someone to ensure my own safety and the safety of others.
Im not sure you could tell what you would do and second I think youd be just as if not more dangerous than kenny to be willing to murder him, hes erratic and dangerous but hes not a cold blooded murderer
I can't exactly, no. However, if placed in a situation where I was in a trio of two other people, one of which constantly endangers my survival as well as the survival of the other person. I think it's fair to say that in any given day of the week whether I was in whichever variable state of mind, killing that person swiftly would be a no-brainer.
Nobody knows something like that until it happens, but I also know myself and where I stand on topics such as self-preservation in dire circumstance and the things humans are capable of doing (good or bad) is extraordinary. People have resorted to cannibalism to feed themselves, built entire colonies, the list goes on. So it's not at all too far fetched that being put in a circumstance where it was me or that person, that person's got to go.
I genuinely believe that Jane decided to handle that bomb so that Clem wouldn't have to in the future, if something happened. I'm aware that it is only a perspective.
To be honest, I believe that Kenny would take that as if she were provoking him. He wanted both of his ways, have AJ and Clem, and go to Wellington. Nothing would stop him from attacking Jane so that he can do what he believes as best for those kids.
As I said before, I don't think that he would have taken it right. And Jane did try to convince Clementine, asking her if she'd want to leave while Kenny was somehow taking gas from a car, and if she'd like to live her own life.
I don't see how there would be another way, other than one of them dying or being left behind. Tell him that you'll grab the kids and leave if he doesn't think the plan through? He will take it as an offense to his reason and to his parenting, and attack you afterwards because of it. Take off while he isn't looking? He loses all sense of meaning and possibly succumbs to suicide. Walk away and let him handle the children? It is probable that they all died without getting anywhere, and guilt could set in—because let's be real here, we all know it's extremely unlikely that they found Wellington in so little time.
No, it was a dumb plan and because of how stupid it was, she has a knife through her chest in my playthrough.
At least in this shot, yeah. She was in the right. Guy with the cap is called Kenny.
I agree, since I mentioned that Kenny was a walking time-bomb that was ready to set off should anyone say something he doesn't like, and is very content in getting his own way. My main problem with Jane's plan was how she directly caused him to go unstable, which makes her more responsible for the conflict that led to either Kenny's death or her own, and the point she had tried to make ended up being compromised because of it.
Personally, I think the problem lies with the actual game itself. We are never given the option to oppose Kenny's plan, which leads to Jane assuming that we're dead set on going to Wellington no matter the cost. Still, Jane didn't really assess the situation careful enough as she had only just tried to get a straight answer from Clementine (contradictory to my previous statement, I know) and didn't try every other option to convince Kenny one more time that his plan was suicidal.
Going back to how they were all separated, Jane's does not point out how Kenny inadvertently lured walkers towards them after he fired his gun during his search for petrol, which had nearly gotten Jane and Clementine killed while they were looking for shelter during a whiteout in the freezing cold. The roads were blocked off with a mass of cars, meaning that travelling would prove to be more difficult even with enough fuel to travel for miles. They don't appear to carry any supplies or food, as well as baby formula, and now they're stuck in a run-down building with no protection from the cold.
Had Jane simply tried to convince him with all of these points to the best of her abilities, and then tried to use force out of desperation, and should Kenny then snap and try to kill her for getting in the way of his plan, Jane would have appeared more justified and morally better in her actions, and her point would appear more airtight.
We both seem to agree on that. Because of how the game was handled, it appears as if we want to go to Wellington at all times—which subconsciously pushes players to agree with that idea—and as if Jane directly opposes and disregards what we want, even if it's not that way.
The lack of explanation of how things played out at the car, and the way things were set, make Jane seem more morally-wrong and colder than if we had been provided an insight of what she was attempting to do. Going deeper than the facts, one realizes that Jane didn't set up the fight to kill Kenny; she did it to show Clementine what could happen, and that determinantly lead to Kenny's death. Sadly, the game does a poor job at boosting that realization. Perhaps Telltale did want Kenny to stay on higher moral ground.
Depends on how you look it, overall, I'd say no one is really in the 'right'.
If you take into account Kenny's previous actions:
These actions are what led Jane to begin to express dislike and caution for Kenny, this transitioned from the beginning of the episode where she had faith that Clementine could put Kenny back on the 'right path', sympathizing with him.
Jane's actions that led to their fight:
Jane's goal was to show Clementine how far Kenny would go to hurt people if he was driven by anger, was it right of her to do so? That's subjective. Did her plan succeed? That's pretty relative, although for me, I saw how Kenny's anger would lead to irrational thinking that results in the death of a group member that had saved his life. Although with the whole AJ thing, I do believe it wasn't right for her to use AJ as the 'bait' however, he wasn't in any danger.
In the end, this topic is just as controversial as ever, I personally don't believe either of their actions were are entirely good or bad, more so in the lines of being 'morally grey', although to be honest, these types of discussions are what make me feel that Season 2 was rather compelling, as I've never seen an in-game scenario argued over as much.
What about in the scenario where the player's Clementine already wanted to go somewhere other than Wellington? In my first play through of the game, I agreed with Jane on going back to Howe's on multiple accounts, yet Kenny refused. I'm not sure how it would've gone down if Jane did just simply ask Clementine but Kenny may have attacked Jane thinking that she's trying to take Clementine from him or if Clementine wants to bring AJ along, Kenny may have also gone off. It's difficult to say what other outcomes there would've been if Jane simply asked Clementine.
Don't get me wrong, I still disagree with how Jane executed her plan but I have a feeling that it wouldn't have been as easy as it may seem had Jane just asked Clementine, especially if Clementine already agrees with Jane several times.
No.
Her concern for Clementine's safety when concerning Kenny and his emotional/psychological state? Sure. I appreciate that.
Her actions to constantly piss Kenny off on purpose, bringing up his dead family and instigating the fight by endangering AJ? No.
"The execution was the messy part."
Jane's reasoning, in my opinion, were right. She didn't want to get rid of Kenny for shits and gigs, she did it because of how violent and aggressive he acted. It's just the way she went about it, what with hiding the baby and all, made the plan fail (depending on whether you shot Kenny or not). Overall, the plan wasn't even to get rid of him. It was to show Clementine how dangerous Kenny was and for her to make a choice about staying with him or not.
We can't forget that Kenny brought up instigating comments first. It's funny how people only tend to only focus on what the first horrible thing Jane said was.
lmao ok and hitler did nothing wrong
Even still, there were moments in which she could have changed topic, in which she could have not said anything, yet she continued. Also the reasoning behind these comments, are important.
Kenny only meant to insult her, to get under her skin and hurt her feelings because she was angry.
Jane wanted to do the same, yet she was psychologically manipulating and purposefully hoped Kenny snapped, especially due to the fact she brought up topics that hurt, such as the death of his family (Katjaa and Duck), Sarita's death and the implication that Sarita did not love Kenny, and neither does Clementine.
After the little argument about Wellington, Jane said "Whatever. I give up." and put her feet on the dashboard, where Kenny, unnecessarily, pushed her feet off of it. Which escalated the argument.
And so what? She responded to the shit he was giving her. You can't blame her for responding when being provoked, especially when he told her that she was nothing and that no one cared about her.
"Only meant to insult her"? How the hell is that even a justification? His reasoning behind that was because she disagreed on going to Wellington, which she eventually gave up on disagreeing to.
Oh, please. What's with everyone thinking Jane is some "master manipulator" who can turn peoples mental state into dust? She retaliated to Kenny trying to get personal with her, she didn't psychologically break him down with some intense plan to make him kill himself or some dramatic crap. When you tell someone as thick-skinned as Jane that "no one loves them" and "you're nothing", what do you honestly expect them to do? Agree with them?I won't deny that she did take it a little too far when it came to Sarita, but of course she was going to hurt him back.
Just like he brought up the fact that no one loves her? It's so funny that someone like Kenny can surely dish it out, but can't take it. I mean, he threatened to kill her at the beginning of her bringing up his family. And at that point, she hadn't even said anything bad about them: "What is it with you? It's your family, right?"
Like you said, the reasoning behind these comments are important. And Jane's reasoning was to get back at him for trying to dig into her first.
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I just want a bad ass girl power group damn it.
Fuck off Kenny.
In a scenario with the player actually allowed to oppose the plan to go to Wellington, and supports Jane's idea to go back to Howe's, then I can't see Jane committing to the plan where she fake's the baby's death, considering that she would now know that Clementine is on her side, so Jane would see no need to instigate a fight between her and Kenny.
From that point, I think Jane would have either tried to persuade Clementine to abandon Kenny during his search for more petrol, or will have waited until he comes back to tell him that they're splitting up and going on their way, as either way it's two people against one when it comes down to searching for Wellington. And as you say, Kenny will most likely try to instigate the fight himself to stop Jane from taking Clementine and the baby away from him, as he would never agree to the plan to go back to Howe's.
A fight between the two may have been inevitable, but unless Kenny was willing to kill someone for disagreeing with the idea to go to Wellington, I honestly don't think the fight would have gotten as bad as it was.