So is wanting to shoot a man who keeps killing your group members. So is wanting your group to charge armed people with their bare hands. So is wanting to "shoot their way" out of a herd.
I agree with you. The plan was fucking stupid, reckless and dangerous. If she wanted to kill Kenny, she coulda just stabbed him in his sleep. But nooooo, she had to leave a baby in a frozen car to die.
EDIT: You can ignore this and head straight to the debate. Thought I should tag @BetterToSleep since they enjoy reading my Jane posts.
I'm flattered. I do enjoy reading Jane posts when they provide me a fresh insight of their actions and motivations. Kenny posts, too. Basically, any character's posts.
Anyway, I didn't receive a notification for some reason.
EDIT: You can ignore this and head straight to the debate. Thought I should tag @BetterToSleep since they enjoy reading my Jane posts.
… more Jane is clever, she knew exactly what she was doing.
If you're talking about the argument in the car, there was no thought out plan to it. It looked to me as if she just started throwing all these comments at him because of what he first said to her. Yes, you're right. She knew what she was doing, and that was giving back to Kenny was he first dished out. But again, I'm not going to deny that she took it too far with the comments.
Kenny did the one thing Jane didn't. He asked her to stop.
"Asked" her to stop? I don't think he was "asking" her to stop when he said "You mouth off about my family, and I will fucking end you." Sounds to me like a threat. And again, she had barely even dug in at that point. At least Jane tried to avoid conflict with the Wellington subject by literally gi… [view original content]
Why did "Tom Gould" forget to draw Kenny already being aggressive towards jane? And when did Jane say something to actively start a fight? Where is the "It was an accident Kenny!" line in this picture?
So many bullshit in only 1 picture.
Why did "Tom Gould" forget to draw Kenny already being aggressive towards jane? And when did Jane say something to actively start a fight? Where is the "It was an accident Kenny!" line in this picture?
You missed my point, the picture hints that Jane provokes the fight with Lenny by saying "wanna fight?", which really diverges from the true scenario where Kenny (after Jane stated that she got the baby killed by accident) attacks like a lunatic (like when a bull sees something red).
I'm not saying that Jane didn't hide the baby, I'm saying that Kenny is obviously out of control because he attacks Jane for accidentaly killing someone.
EDIT: You can ignore this and head straight to the debate. Thought I should tag @BetterToSleep since they enjoy reading my Jane posts.
… more Jane is clever, she knew exactly what she was doing.
If you're talking about the argument in the car, there was no thought out plan to it. It looked to me as if she just started throwing all these comments at him because of what he first said to her. Yes, you're right. She knew what she was doing, and that was giving back to Kenny was he first dished out. But again, I'm not going to deny that she took it too far with the comments.
Kenny did the one thing Jane didn't. He asked her to stop.
"Asked" her to stop? I don't think he was "asking" her to stop when he said "You mouth off about my family, and I will fucking end you." Sounds to me like a threat. And again, she had barely even dug in at that point. At least Jane tried to avoid conflict with the Wellington subject by literally gi… [view original content]
That's interesting because before the fight even properly starts if you choose the option to talk to Jane (i think it's something like "Jane don't" or "stay back") and Jane responds with "Ain't gonna happen. It's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery". Something a lot of people miss to be fair
So is wanting to shoot a man who keeps killing your group members. So is wanting your group to charge armed people with their bare hands. So is wanting to "shoot their way" out of a herd.
And by the way, Jane never wanted to kill Kenny.
So, hopefully, you reconsider that maybe it's not Jane that should "especially" not be trusted with Clementine, but rather Kenny, and just Kenny.
Feel free to disagree but i'd rather try to help a longtime friend or acquaintance get through their emotional problems than trust someone who i've only known for a week or so, especially from my viewpoint that I don't think he would ever hurt Clem and i have stated why in other posts. Point is and i apologise if this wasn't your intention but it just sounds to me like you are saying only Kenny can't be trusted and Jane can? Well it's how we both see the situation i guess
EDIT: You can ignore this and head straight to the debate. Thought I should tag @BetterToSleep since they enjoy reading my Jane posts.
… more Jane is clever, she knew exactly what she was doing.
If you're talking about the argument in the car, there was no thought out plan to it. It looked to me as if she just started throwing all these comments at him because of what he first said to her. Yes, you're right. She knew what she was doing, and that was giving back to Kenny was he first dished out. But again, I'm not going to deny that she took it too far with the comments.
Kenny did the one thing Jane didn't. He asked her to stop.
"Asked" her to stop? I don't think he was "asking" her to stop when he said "You mouth off about my family, and I will fucking end you." Sounds to me like a threat. And again, she had barely even dug in at that point. At least Jane tried to avoid conflict with the Wellington subject by literally gi… [view original content]
And those two instances when Kenny throttles at Jane before she says the line doesn't count as a proper fight?
Jane says the line not because she planned to kill him all along, but because her patience with Kenny finally had finally reached its limit, and because she realizes that she's going to have to kill Kenny, or else he will kill her.
And by the way, Jane never wanted to kill Kenny.
That's interesting because before the fight even properly starts if you choose the … moreoption to talk to Jane (i think it's something like "Jane don't" or "stay back") and Jane responds with "Ain't gonna happen. It's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery". Something a lot of people miss to be fair
So many bullshit in only 1 picture.
Why did "Tom Gould" forget to draw Kenny already being aggressive towards jane? And when did Jane say something to actively start a fight? Where is the "It was an accident Kenny!" line in this picture?
but i'd rather try to help a longtime friend or acquaintance get through their emotional problems
Like I said, Clementine is mature for her age. But she isn't mature enough or has enough knowledge to help Kenny out of what mental state he's in. Clementine wouldn't be able to fix what's happened to Kenny, especially since he's so far into it. She's merely a band-aid to his mental state, but I'm not saying that he doesn't care for her. He did send her into a (what he thinks is) safe community at the cost of him not being there. He does care about her.
than trust someone who i've only known for a week
That doesn't stop the fact that Jane's a fully capable human being that can take care of a child. I think it's just a matter of opinion, but I'd rather Clementine stay with a stable person she's known for a week (and won't abuse her, rape her, and all that other horrible things that could happen to a girl her age) and knows how to take care of a child, than someone who's mentally unstable, aggressive, and a hazard to.
I don't think he would ever hurt Clem and i have stated why in other posts.
I disagree given Kenny's mental state. If you choose to say that Lee maybe shouldn't have went across the state of Georgia to save her, he says to her that he should slap her for saying that.
Could you possibly copy and paste your reasoning as to why Kenny would never hurt Clem?
Point is and i apologise if this wasn't your intention but it just sounds to me like you are saying only Kenny can't be trusted and Jane can?
It's okay. I meant with the "especially" bit. The other person said "especially Jane" when I countered with "especially Kenny, and only Kenny" as in it shouldn't be "especially Jane and Kenny." Sounds a bit confusing, but there's things that Jane has said/done that would make someone second-guess trusting her with a child, and I acknowledge that. But I just can't see myself trusting Kenny with a child at all.
So, hopefully, you reconsider that maybe it's not Jane that should "especially" not be trusted with Clementine, but rather Kenny, and just K… moreenny.
Feel free to disagree but i'd rather try to help a longtime friend or acquaintance get through their emotional problems than trust someone who i've only known for a week or so, especially from my viewpoint that I don't think he would ever hurt Clem and i have stated why in other posts. Point is and i apologise if this wasn't your intention but it just sounds to me like you are saying only Kenny can't be trusted and Jane can? Well it's how we both see the situation i guess
And by the way, Jane never wanted to kill Kenny.
That's interesting because before the fight even properly starts if you choose the … moreoption to talk to Jane (i think it's something like "Jane don't" or "stay back") and Jane responds with "Ain't gonna happen. It's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery". Something a lot of people miss to be fair
EDIT: You can ignore this and head straight to the debate. Thought I should tag @BetterToSleep since they enjoy reading my Jane posts.
… more
I'm flattered. I do enjoy reading Jane posts when they provide me a fresh insight of their actions and motivations. Kenny posts, too. Basically, any character's posts.
Anyway, I didn't receive a notification for some reason.
It was f*** crazy if you ask me.
"Hm... Let's see... The little girl is shot, the baby is starving, we just crashed into a walker in the middle of a blizzard. Hell yes, perfect moment for messing with the angry guy's mind and showing the little girl that I'm better than him."
I'm sorry...? What other side of the story? Is it a lie that Kenny attacked without reason? I am also not denying that Jane caused the fight by hiding the baby. I pointed out (a bit aggressively maybe) that the picture was not entirely accurate (which is fine because it's obviously for the sake of comedy) and then you misinterpreted one of my points and I tried to explain it to you as best as I could... Why are you being so antagonic?
That moment at Parker's Run when he speaks to himself, and says "oh, Sarita, wherever you are, please forgive me. I can't be alone again," while firmly gripping the gun in his hand.
but i'd rather try to help a longtime friend or acquaintance get through their emotional problems
Like I said, Clementine is mature … morefor her age. But she isn't mature enough or has enough knowledge to help Kenny out of what mental state he's in. Clementine wouldn't be able to fix what's happened to Kenny, especially since he's so far into it. She's merely a band-aid to his mental state, but I'm not saying that he doesn't care for her. He did send her into a (what he thinks is) safe community at the cost of him not being there. He does care about her.
than trust someone who i've only known for a week
That doesn't stop the fact that Jane's a fully capable human being that can take care of a child. I think it's just a matter of opinion, but I'd rather Clementine stay with a stable person she's known for a week (and won't abuse her, rape her, and all that other horrible things that could happen to a girl her age) and knows ho… [view original content]
But she isn't mature enough or has enough knowledge to help Kenny out of what mental state he's in. Clementine wouldn't be able to fix what's happened to Kenny, especially since he's so far into it
Ok but how do we know she couldn't help him? It's basically your opinion that she can't yet i think she could. She seemed to be getting through to Sarah when trying to persuade her to leave the trailer? I realise its different between Kenny and Sarah's state but is similar. Sarah is confused and frightened but she started to come around when Clem spoke to her in my playthrough so i feel shes mature enough to help people get through difficult times. I see what you are saying though.
That doesn't stop the fact that Jane's a fully capable human being that can take care of a child. I think it's just a matter of opinion
Yup your right it is certainly a matter of opinion lol
but I'd rather Clementine stay with a stable person she's known for a week (and won't abuse her, rape her, and all that other horrible things that could happen to a girl her age)
Ok fair enough. I however (this far into an apocalypse) would rather be round someone i've known a long time be it a friend or even someone not close like a neighbour or someone from my corner shop. By the way i wouldn't call someone stable who fakes a baby's death to prove a point. She may not be as unstable as Kenny but those actions are disturbing regardless of intent and if she hadn't proven her point like that then no one would have died.
I disagree given Kenny's mental state. If you choose to say that Lee maybe shouldn't have went across the state of Georgia to save her, he says to her that he should slap her for saying that.
Sorry but no seriously! The way in which Kenny said that was like a father spanking a daughter for saying something naughty because lets face it, he sees her as like a replacement for Duck as implied in Episode 2. There is no way that was an act of abuse, a violent threat or otherwise. Besides, that would piss me off too if someone i cared about said something negative like that because it's like saying she's given up or doesn't care that people like Lee sacrificed himself to save her. He could have hit her but he didn't and there were many times were he could have during episode 4 and 5 but he didn't.
Could you possibly copy and paste your reasoning as to why Kenny would never hurt Clem?
I would if i could be bothered to find it but basically as said above, he had many chances to hurt her like when Sarita died or got bit when he blamed her or when speaking to him after the gang reunited after the escaping the herd. The worst he ever got was angry and shout at her all of which was wrong of him but he later apologised for because he never meant it deep down and was just his way of letting his aggression out. Kenny called her Duck which tells me that he felt like she was his own or as close to a daughter as you can get. Given the fact he cares more about the kids wellbeing than the rest of the adults also makes me believe he'd never hurt her. His selfless act in wanting them to be safe because he didn't want them to be in danger anymore, not because he'd hurt her though. You have to remember that she was the only person he trusted in the game because of everything they went through together and with Lee, which is another reason i will never believe he'd hurt her and unless they ever show or confirm that he would then i will never accept it.
It's okay. I meant with the "especially" bit. The other person said "especially Jane" when I countered with "especially Kenny, and only Kenny" as in it shouldn't be "especially Jane and Kenny." Sounds a bit confusing, but there's things that Jane has said/done that would make someone second-guess trusting her with a child, and I acknowledge that. But I just can't see myself trusting Kenny with a child at all.
That's fine. This is why they did such a good job in dividing opinion at the end of the game. I don't think Jane would be any better though. She's proven to me that she would leave a group or someone like Clem when things get rough for herself. Yeah she came back but how do we know she wouldn't do it again? I'm not trying to put the character down or put down your opinion but i still wouldn't trust her fully to look after a child. Not after implying that if it was her she'd get rid of it (as i said about the Rebecca convo earlier). Also she again referred to AJ as an "it" "i think it needs food" i believe she said in one scene. I just felt like this is another reason that she didn't really care that much for him
but i'd rather try to help a longtime friend or acquaintance get through their emotional problems
Like I said, Clementine is mature … morefor her age. But she isn't mature enough or has enough knowledge to help Kenny out of what mental state he's in. Clementine wouldn't be able to fix what's happened to Kenny, especially since he's so far into it. She's merely a band-aid to his mental state, but I'm not saying that he doesn't care for her. He did send her into a (what he thinks is) safe community at the cost of him not being there. He does care about her.
than trust someone who i've only known for a week
That doesn't stop the fact that Jane's a fully capable human being that can take care of a child. I think it's just a matter of opinion, but I'd rather Clementine stay with a stable person she's known for a week (and won't abuse her, rape her, and all that other horrible things that could happen to a girl her age) and knows ho… [view original content]
She even said "it was an accident, Kenny" and he STILL wanted to hurt her, basically giving her the blame for AJ "dying."
That's because he naturally didn't believe her. She said to Rebecca "what are you going to do with "it"" implying she should get rid of the baby because it would be a threat and whilst i agree with Jane here, it was still such an unnecessary thing to say especially before AJ was even born. Kenny believed she never wanted the baby around and sorry but i agree with him. If Clementine wasn't in the picture i just cannot see her wanting or trying to take care of the baby herself where as i know Kenny would
EDIT: You can ignore this and head straight to the debate. Thought I should tag @BetterToSleep since they enjoy reading my Jane posts.
… more Jane is clever, she knew exactly what she was doing.
If you're talking about the argument in the car, there was no thought out plan to it. It looked to me as if she just started throwing all these comments at him because of what he first said to her. Yes, you're right. She knew what she was doing, and that was giving back to Kenny was he first dished out. But again, I'm not going to deny that she took it too far with the comments.
Kenny did the one thing Jane didn't. He asked her to stop.
"Asked" her to stop? I don't think he was "asking" her to stop when he said "You mouth off about my family, and I will fucking end you." Sounds to me like a threat. And again, she had barely even dug in at that point. At least Jane tried to avoid conflict with the Wellington subject by literally gi… [view original content]
That moment at Parker's Run when he speaks to himself, and says "oh, Sarita, wherever you are, please forgive me. I can't be alone again," while firmly gripping the gun in his hand.
Hmm i'd have to watch that again, i don't think that seemed like a wanting to commit suicide moment to me though.
That moment at Parker's Run when he speaks to himself, and says "oh, Sarita, wherever you are, please forgive me. I can't be alone again," while firmly gripping the gun in his hand.
And those two instances when Kenny throttles at Jane before she says the line doesn't count as a proper fight?
I said before it properly started as before going too far. The line was said after he swung at her first but before he charged at her the second time. But anyway...
Jane says the line not because she planned to kill him all along, but because her patience with Kenny finally had finally reached its limit, and because she realizes that she's going to have to kill Kenny, or else he will kill her.
And yet she later said "i didn't think he'd go that far" yet i know deep down she damn well knew he would. Point is she still said that line i pointed out which was just as bad. I never said she wanted to kill him "all along" but in that moment she was just as bad as he was and her patience finally reaching her limit with him makes it alright to say that does it? Also as ive said all along, Kenny threw the first punch yes but she actually started the fight because she schemed what she did to cause it to happen so she's just as much to blame. None of it would have happened otherwise.
And those two instances when Kenny throttles at Jane before she says the line doesn't count as a proper fight?
Jane says the line not bec… moreause she planned to kill him all along, but because her patience with Kenny finally had finally reached its limit, and because she realizes that she's going to have to kill Kenny, or else he will kill her.
Shit, he spends 3 months with her at a Motor-Inn where they barely talked, she witnessed his mental break down, and don't see each other for another 2 years, and all of a sudden he thinks she's his responsibility?
Because she's all he has left and then later on AJ. He was a father after all, he had responsibilities for Duck and as stated before i felt he saw her as like his daughter now that he has nothing left. That's how it seemed to me anyway, given how he was so determined to find Wellington. He felt it was his responsibility, doing what's best for the kids.
Jane's reasons aren't malicious in anyway if that's what you're feeling about them.
I never said or meant to imply that her reasons were malicious. If i did I apologise but all i said was that her reasons were different. I think she wanted Clem around because she didn't want to be alone again like when she lost her sister. Kenny wanted what was best for Clem and AJ regardless of his own self which is in my opinion the difference.
Well, given they're adults with more life experience and knowledge, I don't think they'd ask a child where they should go to survive. "Hey Clem, where do you wanna go now? It's not like you just woke up from being unconscious due to being shot or anything. How about you make this very important decision?"
Sorry, when i said they never asked her what she wanted to do, i was actually meaning if Clem wanted to go with Jane or stay with Kenny, not what place to survive. It's kind of the same thing really but there was never a point where either Kenny or Jane asker her are you coming with me or going with him/her regardless of what place to survive at. Does that make sense? Lol sorry.
at least the reason behind him "forcing" her to be around her was what he believed was his responsibility to look after her
Shit, he… more spends 3 months with her at a Motor-Inn where they barely talked, she witnessed his mental break down, and don't see each other for another 2 years, and all of a sudden he thinks she's his responsibility?
Jane's reasons aren't malicious in anyway if that's what you're feeling about them.
Point is, neither of them asked her what she wanted to do
Well, given they're adults with more life experience and knowledge, I don't think they'd ask a child where they should go to survive. "Hey Clem, where do you wanna go now? It's not like you just woke up from being unconscious due to being shot or anything. How about you make this very important decision?"
I mean, us as the player chooses what Clementine wants. And the choice was either Wellington or Howe's. No matter what we picked, one of them… [view original content]
I said before it properly started as before going too far. The line was said after he swung at her first but before he charged at her the second time. But anyway...
Sorry, but he definitely charges at her twice before Jane starts fighting back. He tries to attack her first, which was when Jane shouts that what happened to the baby was an accident. Jane puts her weapon away, and tells him to not touch her, but Kenny ignores her and goes after her the second time.
I never said she wanted to kill him "all along" but in that moment she was just as bad as he was and her patience finally reaching her limit with him makes it alright to say that does it?
It does when she's being attacked by a man who's accuses her for something she has not done, who doesn't bother to listen to the rest of her story just as soon as he sees her without the baby after being separated, and immediately assumes that she deliberately murdered him. Before the truth was revealed, Kenny was trying to murder someone off his own flawed assumptions, thus playing jury, judge, and executioner. This is not an acceptable behavior, let alone an understandable one to have when you're already dragging the rest of your team woefully unprepared to go to Wellington with no plan, direction, food, and shelter from the cold.
Also as ive said all along, Kenny threw the first punch yes but she actually started the fight because she schemed what she did to cause it to happen so she's just as much to blame. None of it would have happened otherwise.
True, Jane instigated the fight with the ridiculous plan, but Kenny had multiple opportunities himself to not finish it the way he did, especially when his actions proved how easily and capable he was to commit murder among his own group, and especially when Jane did nothing to provoke him or taunt him into making the first move. She doesn't even get the chance to explain how the baby 'died' before Kenny assumes the worse and immediately goes for the kill. That's the main problem with the fight, and thus why Jane felt that she had to instigate the fight to prove this point to Clementine.
This scenario ended up reinforcing Jane's point about how easily Kenny could end up contemplating murdering someone among his group in a manner of seconds should anything happen to the baby, whether the carer was the culprit or not, Kenny didn't care. This makes him an incredibly dangerous individual to have in a group, let alone a self-proclaimed leader who is happy to gamble with everyone's lives, the baby included, to go to Wellington with or without their consent.
In the end, unless you were one of Kenny's 'family', you were expendable, and you would be found guilty of whatever crime he accused you of.
And those two instances when Kenny throttles at Jane before she says the line doesn't count as a proper fight?
I said before it prop… moreerly started as before going too far. The line was said after he swung at her first but before he charged at her the second time. But anyway...
Jane says the line not because she planned to kill him all along, but because her patience with Kenny finally had finally reached its limit, and because she realizes that she's going to have to kill Kenny, or else he will kill her.
And yet she later said "i didn't think he'd go that far" yet i know deep down she damn well knew he would. Point is she still said that line i pointed out which was just as bad. I never said she wanted to kill him "all along" but in that moment she was just as bad as he was and her patience finally reaching her limit with him makes it alright to say that does it? Also as ive said all along, Kenny threw the first punch yes … [view original content]
That moment at Parker's Run when he speaks to himself, and says "oh, Sarita, wherever you are, please forgive me. I can't be alone again," while firmly gripping the gun in his hand.
Sorry, but he definitely charges at her twice before Jane starts fighting back.
Rich im talking about the line she says "time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery". She says that after he swung a punch but before he charged at her up against the window. I wasn't talking about when she started fighting back.
It does when she's being attacked by a man who's accuses her for something she has not done
Well i disagree naturally. I don't think it's right to say that! That makes her no better at all. Like i said, she faked the whole thing, he accused her because she never wanted the baby around and she implied this a number of times, saying Rebecca should get rid of it for example. What she did regardless of her intent for Clem was disgusting and she might as well have killed the baby doing what she did. Kenny was no better but it was her fault he reacted like that. Kenny didn't believe her, he only trusted one person in that game besides himself and if you didn't like someone or trust them i'm pretty sure you'd react the same way. Not to the point of murder but who knows in an apocolypse. I think i'd do the same if someone made it appear someone i cared about was left to die. Go on? I'm as crazy as Kenny for that opinion yeah? As for everything else, i see things so so differently to what you've said.
She doesn't even get the chance to explain how the baby 'died' before Kenny assumes the worse and immediately goes for the kill.
But she was never going to "explain" because it was all bullshit to begin with. Again, if she hadn't done what she did he wouldn't have "gone for the kill" and nothing would have happened.
You know i totaly get why you and others despise Kenny and the way he is past and present but i just cannot understand why a lot of people don't think Jane's actions are just as bad all because it's not done in a violent manner the way Kenny portrays himself?
Anyway i will never ever be swayed no matter what negativity is said about Kenny. I'm sure the same can be said for you. I wish we could all sit round a table and discuss in person, it's hard to explain through a wall like this
I said before it properly started as before going too far. The line was said after he swung at her first but before he charged at her the se… morecond time. But anyway...
Sorry, but he definitely charges at her twice before Jane starts fighting back. He tries to attack her first, which was when Jane shouts that what happened to the baby was an accident. Jane puts her weapon away, and tells him to not touch her, but Kenny ignores her and goes after her the second time.
I never said she wanted to kill him "all along" but in that moment she was just as bad as he was and her patience finally reaching her limit with him makes it alright to say that does it?
It does when she's being attacked by a man who's accuses her for something she has not done, who doesn't bother to listen to the rest of her story just as soon as he sees her without the baby after being separated, and immediately assumes that she deliberately murdered him. Befo… [view original content]
he accused her because she never wanted the baby around and she implied this a number of times, saying Rebecca should get rid of it for example. What she did regardless of her intent for Clem was disgusting and she might as well have killed the baby doing what she did.
If she never wanted the baby to begin with, then why even bother keeping the baby alive the entire time to begin with once she had AJ in her arms? Why hide him in a car she knows where to come back to and for Clementine to find, when she could have easily tossed the baby in the snow to die in the cold, to the walkers for them to snack on, or even back when Clementine was shot, she was presumably left alone with the baby while Kenny was running outside to find Clementine lying on the floor in a pool of her own blood.
Her opinion and behavior towards the baby is less "I want the baby to die" and more "I don't want to get attached to the baby", and the latter appears more truer than the former given how she had multiple opportunities to kill the baby, but she never does so. The only crime she committed was to put the baby aside in the car to formulate her plan, but the baby living was clearly part of the plan as she still choose to keep AJ alive in the car, when she could have easily killed anytime when she was separated from Kenny and Clementine.
You know i totaly get why you and others despise Kenny and the way he is past and present but i just cannot understand why a lot of people don't think Jane's actions are just as bad all because it's not done in a violent manner the way Kenny portrays himself?
It's not the manner of violence, it's the reasoning behind the two's actions. Jane formulated the plan because she felt desperate enough to prove that going to Wellington in their condition was suicidal, and she also recognized that everyone's lives was on Kenny's hands and she wasn't going to risk losing her life as well as Clementine's just because Kenny wouldn't take no for an answer.
As for Kenny, he proved himself to lack any sense of self-control, is stubborn to the point of lacking any sense of self-preservation as well as others, and was incapable of listening to reason and logic. I've already explained my reasoning on why I felt that Kenny was a danger to be with, and how his own actions was his own responsibility, even if Jane had instigated the fight.
Anyway i will never ever be swayed no matter what negativity is said about Kenny. I'm sure the same can be said for you. I wish we could all sit round a table and discuss in person, it's hard to explain through a wall like this
I'm not here to sway your opinion. I've posted my comment to show that not everything is black and white, there are always a reason behind everyone's actions. I just happen to believe that while Jane was wrong to fake the baby's death and trick everyone, I believed that it was not entirely without justification, and that Kenny had only himself to blame for how he choose to commit murder when he had no reason to.
Sorry, but he definitely charges at her twice before Jane starts fighting back.
Rich im talking about the line she says "time to put… more this crusty piece of shit out of his misery". She says that after he swung a punch but before he charged at her up against the window. I wasn't talking about when she started fighting back.
It does when she's being attacked by a man who's accuses her for something she has not done
Well i disagree naturally. I don't think it's right to say that! That makes her no better at all. Like i said, she faked the whole thing, he accused her because she never wanted the baby around and she implied this a number of times, saying Rebecca should get rid of it for example. What she did regardless of her intent for Clem was disgusting and she might as well have killed the baby doing what she did. Kenny was no better but it was her fault he reacted like that. Kenny didn't believe her, he only trusted one pe… [view original content]
If she never wanted the baby to begin with, then why even bother keeping the baby alive the entire time to begin with once she had AJ in her arms?
Because Clementine is with her and she cares enough to do what Clem wants which is care for the baby. Can i ask you honestly? All bias aside, if Clementine was not around do you think Jane would care/look after the baby on her own? Because I seriously doubt it Rich, that's basically what i'm trying to say. I'm not saying shes a complete monster but I don't think she would look after him without someone else with her.
I respect your posts, you make good points about both
he accused her because she never wanted the baby around and she implied this a number of times, saying Rebecca should get rid of it for exam… moreple. What she did regardless of her intent for Clem was disgusting and she might as well have killed the baby doing what she did.
If she never wanted the baby to begin with, then why even bother keeping the baby alive the entire time to begin with once she had AJ in her arms? Why hide him in a car she knows where to come back to and for Clementine to find, when she could have easily tossed the baby in the snow to die in the cold, to the walkers for them to snack on, or even back when Clementine was shot, she was presumably left alone with the baby while Kenny was running outside to find Clementine lying on the floor in a pool of her own blood.
Her opinion and behavior towards the baby is less "I want the baby to die" and more "I don't want to get attached to the baby", and the latter appears mo… [view original content]
Given the fact he cares more about the kids wellbeing than the rest of the adults
Clementine:Shows up at lodge.
Kenny: Clem, Clementine! Clem! Hey, Clem!
AJ:Is born.
Kenny: Let's call him Alvin Junior! Do you like that? Oh, I think AJ approves. AJ, AJ! AJ! AJ! This baby, he's what matters now! Get your shit together!
Sarah:Exists.
Kenny:Ignores Sarah's existence. Clem!
It is kind of funny how they never directly interacted during the entire game. I wouldn't say that Kenny cares about children, only Clem and AJ in particular.
But she isn't mature enough or has enough knowledge to help Kenny out of what mental state he's in. Clementine wouldn't be able to fix what'… mores happened to Kenny, especially since he's so far into it
Ok but how do we know she couldn't help him? It's basically your opinion that she can't yet i think she could. She seemed to be getting through to Sarah when trying to persuade her to leave the trailer? I realise its different between Kenny and Sarah's state but is similar. Sarah is confused and frightened but she started to come around when Clem spoke to her in my playthrough so i feel shes mature enough to help people get through difficult times. I see what you are saying though.
That doesn't stop the fact that Jane's a fully capable human being that can take care of a child. I think it's just a matter of opinion
Yup your right it is certainly a matter of opinion lol
but I'd rather Clementine stay with a stable person … [view original content]
Of course that's going to anger her?? It's going to make her feel threatened, hence why she said it.
And yet she later said "i didn't think he'd go that far" yet i know deep down she damn well knew he would.
If she actually thought he was going to go that far, I highly doubt she would risk her life for it then. Jane's smart, she would have confessed about the baby.
And those two instances when Kenny throttles at Jane before she says the line doesn't count as a proper fight?
I said before it prop… moreerly started as before going too far. The line was said after he swung at her first but before he charged at her the second time. But anyway...
Jane says the line not because she planned to kill him all along, but because her patience with Kenny finally had finally reached its limit, and because she realizes that she's going to have to kill Kenny, or else he will kill her.
And yet she later said "i didn't think he'd go that far" yet i know deep down she damn well knew he would. Point is she still said that line i pointed out which was just as bad. I never said she wanted to kill him "all along" but in that moment she was just as bad as he was and her patience finally reaching her limit with him makes it alright to say that does it? Also as ive said all along, Kenny threw the first punch yes … [view original content]
That's because he naturally didn't believe her. She said to Rebecca "what are you going to do with "it"" implying she should get rid of the baby because it would be a threat
Kenny wouldn't have any reason not to believe her since her asking Rebecca that was the only time she'd shown her fear about the baby, and plus, Kenny wasn't there. He wouldn't of had any way of knowing she said that, and I highly doubt Rebecca would've told Kenny.
And come on, she didn't even mean it in a bad way. She didn't know what Rebecca was deciding to do, and especially since at that point in time, they hadn't of found anyone yet and Jane had doubts that they would. She didn't mean it in a bad way, she was genuinely curious AND scared that the baby was going to get either Clem and Rebecca killed.
If Clementine wasn't in the picture i just cannot see her wanting or trying to take care of the baby herself where as i know Kenny would
She's not a cold-hearted killer, she wouldn't abandon a defenseless baby, that's just now how she is. And don't bring up Sarah as a counter-argument, because Sarah and the baby are totally different, considering Jane thought Sarah didn't want to be saved (despite just not being physically able to, but Jane didn't know that) and wanted to die.
She even said "it was an accident, Kenny" and he STILL wanted to hurt her, basically giving her the blame for AJ "dying."
That's bec… moreause he naturally didn't believe her. She said to Rebecca "what are you going to do with "it"" implying she should get rid of the baby because it would be a threat and whilst i agree with Jane here, it was still such an unnecessary thing to say especially before AJ was even born. Kenny believed she never wanted the baby around and sorry but i agree with him. If Clementine wasn't in the picture i just cannot see her wanting or trying to take care of the baby herself where as i know Kenny would
Ok but how do we know she couldn't help him? It's basically your opinion that she can't yet i think she could.
Dude, it's not an opinion, it's common sense. She's not educated enough to help him out of that severe depression and aggression.
She seemed to be getting through to Sarah when trying to persuade her to leave the trailer?
Sarah and Kenny are two completely different mentalities, plus Sarah is only 4 years older than Clementine and has the mind of a child. Let's not forget that the only way to get Sarah out of the trailer park is by slapping her, not persuading her as Clementine talking to her didn't do the job well enough. And slapping someone who's distraught and anxious like Sarah was isn't a method to help them.
Yup your right it is certainly a matter of opinion lol
Jane being a capable person to take care of Clementine wasn't the bit I was saying was an opinion. It was the next bit, but nice twist:
I think it's just a matter of opinion, but I'd rather Clementine stay with a stable person she's known for a week (and won't abuse her, rape her, and all that other horrible things that could happen to a girl her age) and knows how to take care of a child, than someone who's mentally unstable, aggressive, and a hazard to.
By the way i wouldn't call someone stable who fakes a baby's death to prove a point.
Honestly, look how long she'd been around Kenny enough to make a drastic decision like that to do. Because all the other times, she's been mentally stable.
Sorry but no seriously! The way in which Kenny said that was like a father spanking a daughter for saying something naughty because lets face it, he sees her as like a replacement for Duck as implied in Episode 2.
Wtf? That still doesn't justify it! He's not her kid, he won't ever be a father figure to her because like you said, he sees her as a REPLACEMENT. A figure of the past, I could also say. He's not being a true father figure, thus he shouldn't threaten to slap her. That's not right.
There is no way that was an act of abuse, a violent threat or otherwise.
Given Clementine's age and all the people who've tried to hurt her in the past, telling her she should be slapped for saying something most likely made her feel unsafe. You should never even lay a finger on a child that isn't yours (and tbh, I don't support parents hitting children, but that's a whole different can of worms) or even threaten to do so. Especially not in a time where people are fearing for their lives.
He could have hit her but he didn't and there were many times were he could have during episode 4 and 5 but he didn't.
That doesn't change the fact that he still threatened to hit her. Saying "oh, but he didn't" is watering it down like it's not an issue.
he had many chances to hurt her like when Sarita died or got bit when he blamed her or when speaking to him after the gang reunited after the escaping the herd.
"Could've but didn't" isn't a reason as to why he would never hurt Clementine. The fact that he "could've" is bad enough, and I'm not talking generally.
The worst he ever got was angry and shout at her all of which was wrong of him but he later apologised for because he never meant it deep down and was just his way of letting his aggression out.
Ah, yes. Mentally abusing Clementine by blaming her for someone's DEATH. That doesn't make it any better than hitting her. I just really can't see how an apology magically fixes that, considering he decided to lash out at her in the first place. You would think that he would stop himself if he knew that he didn't mean it, but the damage is already done.
Kenny called her Duck which tells me that he felt like she was his own or as close to a daughter as you can get.
I'm going to disagree here and say he called her Duck not because he saw her as his own (considering they JUST reunited after hardly speaking back at the Motor Inn), but because she reminded him of the past. Clementine and Duck spent loads of time together, they were basically stuck to each other like glue. You would hardly see Duck without Clem, and vice versa. So of course he was reminded of the past, which caused him to call her Duck.
Given the fact he cares more about the kids wellbeing
I'm sorry, what? The only child he gave attention to was Clementine, he didn't even acknowledge Sarah's existence! And AJ is yet another replacement child (in this case, baby) because he felt like he owed it to himself to raise this kid better than he did Duck. And boy did that fail if you decide to go to Wellington and leave Kenny, considering he threw both Clem and AJ into a place that he had no certain fact that it was actually safe in there.
You have to remember that she was the only person he trusted in the game because of everything they went through together and with Lee
The only reason why he trusted her was because she was a reminder of Duck. Obviously he trusted his son, which meant he trusted Clementine, even if she disagreed with him or wanted to go back to Howe's.
She's proven to me that she would leave a group or someone like Clem when things get rough for herself.
Jane's clearly got trust issues because of her past experiences, I won't deny that. But you can tell she's tried her best to stay in the group, especially when Mike, Bonnie, and Arvo wanted to ditch. Jane said in the car "I didn't think they'd go that far" which gives me the suspicion that she knew they were going to leave, just not without all the supplies and shooting Clementine while they did it. She had every reason to go: No baby, no Kenny, no arguments, no Clementine, too. But she clearly stayed loyal to Clementine because she said she wouldn't abandon her again. Even if it left her stuck with Kenny and fearing because of the baby. Not to mention how well she works in tough situations with Clementine (example, Amid The Ruins, trying to find Luke and Sarah). So, clearly, Jane wouldn't abandon Clementine if things got rough.
Not after implying that if it was her she'd get rid of it
Except Jane never implied this?? I just watched the scene, she said she was looking at the "worst case scenario" that Clem and Rebecca wouldn't be able to take care of a baby on their own due to food and necessities that it needs. She never implied that her herself would do that, she only asked what Rebecca was going to do with it.
Also she again referred to AJ as an "it" "i think it needs food" i believe she said in one scene.
That doesn't have anything to do with her wanting to get rid of the baby. Like I said, she's scared he's going to get someone or himself killed, that's why she's anxious around AJ a lot. Clearly, Jane's just not that good with babies. But we can't forget that back in episode 5, Jane had brought the baby into another room with just herself with him because Mike and Arvo were being too loud. She also suggests going back to Howe's with the primary reason of "Bonnie said there's baby formula there," followed by "AND we know where it is." She put the baby's necessity first. Jane does care for the baby, she's just not very good at showing it.
But she isn't mature enough or has enough knowledge to help Kenny out of what mental state he's in. Clementine wouldn't be able to fix what'… mores happened to Kenny, especially since he's so far into it
Ok but how do we know she couldn't help him? It's basically your opinion that she can't yet i think she could. She seemed to be getting through to Sarah when trying to persuade her to leave the trailer? I realise its different between Kenny and Sarah's state but is similar. Sarah is confused and frightened but she started to come around when Clem spoke to her in my playthrough so i feel shes mature enough to help people get through difficult times. I see what you are saying though.
That doesn't stop the fact that Jane's a fully capable human being that can take care of a child. I think it's just a matter of opinion
Yup your right it is certainly a matter of opinion lol
but I'd rather Clementine stay with a stable person … [view original content]
Comments
So is wanting to shoot a man who keeps killing your group members. So is wanting your group to charge armed people with their bare hands. So is wanting to "shoot their way" out of a herd.
And by the way, Jane never wanted to kill Kenny.
I'm flattered. I do enjoy reading Jane posts when they provide me a fresh insight of their actions and motivations. Kenny posts, too. Basically, any character's posts.
Anyway, I didn't receive a notification for some reason.
We should've known to expect it. Her name—Jane Ebenezer Scrooge—was a clever example of foreshadowing.
So many bullshit in only 1 picture.
Why did "Tom Gould" forget to draw Kenny already being aggressive towards jane? And when did Jane say something to actively start a fight? Where is the "It was an accident Kenny!" line in this picture?
Relax, mate. It's just a joke. He's done many TWDG comic parodies.
I know and those parodies are usually really funny. Just saying some things I dislike about this one particularly.
Triggered
wink wink
You missed my point, the picture hints that Jane provokes the fight with Lenny by saying "wanna fight?", which really diverges from the true scenario where Kenny (after Jane stated that she got the baby killed by accident) attacks like a lunatic (like when a bull sees something red).
I'm not saying that Jane didn't hide the baby, I'm saying that Kenny is obviously out of control because he attacks Jane for accidentaly killing someone.
You could say that. I just get really pissed when people acuse a character of doing things she didn't do just to show they're right.
When has Kenny though about suicide!!!!???
She said that it was an accident in the context of her implying that AJ had died.
The Walking Dead Game: Season 2; Episode 4: Amid The Ruins.
If you please point at what scene where Kenny thought of committing suicide, that would be awesome
That's interesting because before the fight even properly starts if you choose the option to talk to Jane (i think it's something like "Jane don't" or "stay back") and Jane responds with "Ain't gonna happen. It's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery". Something a lot of people miss to be fair
Feel free to disagree but i'd rather try to help a longtime friend or acquaintance get through their emotional problems than trust someone who i've only known for a week or so, especially from my viewpoint that I don't think he would ever hurt Clem and i have stated why in other posts. Point is and i apologise if this wasn't your intention but it just sounds to me like you are saying only Kenny can't be trusted and Jane can? Well it's how we both see the situation i guess
And those two instances when Kenny throttles at Jane before she says the line doesn't count as a proper fight?
Jane says the line not because she planned to kill him all along, but because her patience with Kenny finally had finally reached its limit, and because she realizes that she's going to have to kill Kenny, or else he will kill her.
This picture was uploaded first before Vaxij's picture from Tom Gould.
Like I said, Clementine is mature for her age. But she isn't mature enough or has enough knowledge to help Kenny out of what mental state he's in. Clementine wouldn't be able to fix what's happened to Kenny, especially since he's so far into it. She's merely a band-aid to his mental state, but I'm not saying that he doesn't care for her. He did send her into a (what he thinks is) safe community at the cost of him not being there. He does care about her.
That doesn't stop the fact that Jane's a fully capable human being that can take care of a child. I think it's just a matter of opinion, but I'd rather Clementine stay with a stable person she's known for a week (and won't abuse her, rape her, and all that other horrible things that could happen to a girl her age) and knows how to take care of a child, than someone who's mentally unstable, aggressive, and a hazard to.
I disagree given Kenny's mental state. If you choose to say that Lee maybe shouldn't have went across the state of Georgia to save her, he says to her that he should slap her for saying that.
Could you possibly copy and paste your reasoning as to why Kenny would never hurt Clem?
It's okay. I meant with the "especially" bit. The other person said "especially Jane" when I countered with "especially Kenny, and only Kenny" as in it shouldn't be "especially Jane and Kenny." Sounds a bit confusing, but there's things that Jane has said/done that would make someone second-guess trusting her with a child, and I acknowledge that. But I just can't see myself trusting Kenny with a child at all.
Scratch what I originally wrote, I just read @RichWalk23 's comment, rewatched the fight scene, and I agree with him.
Aw, you're too kind.
And yeah, it's probably because I edited the comment to tag you instead of tagging you before I posted it.
It was f*** crazy if you ask me.
"Hm... Let's see... The little girl is shot, the baby is starving, we just crashed into a walker in the middle of a blizzard. Hell yes, perfect moment for messing with the angry guy's mind and showing the little girl that I'm better than him."
I'm sorry...? What other side of the story? Is it a lie that Kenny attacked without reason? I am also not denying that Jane caused the fight by hiding the baby. I pointed out (a bit aggressively maybe) that the picture was not entirely accurate (which is fine because it's obviously for the sake of comedy) and then you misinterpreted one of my points and I tried to explain it to you as best as I could... Why are you being so antagonic?
That moment at Parker's Run when he speaks to himself, and says "oh, Sarita, wherever you are, please forgive me. I can't be alone again," while firmly gripping the gun in his hand.
Jesus, are you fucking kidding me!
Jane was doomed the second she put her feet on the dash. Who does that? Seriously!? In winter wheather.... the hell?
Ok but how do we know she couldn't help him? It's basically your opinion that she can't yet i think she could. She seemed to be getting through to Sarah when trying to persuade her to leave the trailer? I realise its different between Kenny and Sarah's state but is similar. Sarah is confused and frightened but she started to come around when Clem spoke to her in my playthrough so i feel shes mature enough to help people get through difficult times. I see what you are saying though.
Yup your right it is certainly a matter of opinion lol
Ok fair enough. I however (this far into an apocalypse) would rather be round someone i've known a long time be it a friend or even someone not close like a neighbour or someone from my corner shop. By the way i wouldn't call someone stable who fakes a baby's death to prove a point. She may not be as unstable as Kenny but those actions are disturbing regardless of intent and if she hadn't proven her point like that then no one would have died.
Sorry but no seriously! The way in which Kenny said that was like a father spanking a daughter for saying something naughty because lets face it, he sees her as like a replacement for Duck as implied in Episode 2. There is no way that was an act of abuse, a violent threat or otherwise. Besides, that would piss me off too if someone i cared about said something negative like that because it's like saying she's given up or doesn't care that people like Lee sacrificed himself to save her. He could have hit her but he didn't and there were many times were he could have during episode 4 and 5 but he didn't.
I would if i could be bothered to find it but basically as said above, he had many chances to hurt her like when Sarita died or got bit when he blamed her or when speaking to him after the gang reunited after the escaping the herd. The worst he ever got was angry and shout at her all of which was wrong of him but he later apologised for because he never meant it deep down and was just his way of letting his aggression out. Kenny called her Duck which tells me that he felt like she was his own or as close to a daughter as you can get. Given the fact he cares more about the kids wellbeing than the rest of the adults also makes me believe he'd never hurt her. His selfless act in wanting them to be safe because he didn't want them to be in danger anymore, not because he'd hurt her though. You have to remember that she was the only person he trusted in the game because of everything they went through together and with Lee, which is another reason i will never believe he'd hurt her and unless they ever show or confirm that he would then i will never accept it.
That's fine. This is why they did such a good job in dividing opinion at the end of the game. I don't think Jane would be any better though. She's proven to me that she would leave a group or someone like Clem when things get rough for herself. Yeah she came back but how do we know she wouldn't do it again? I'm not trying to put the character down or put down your opinion but i still wouldn't trust her fully to look after a child. Not after implying that if it was her she'd get rid of it (as i said about the Rebecca convo earlier). Also she again referred to AJ as an "it" "i think it needs food" i believe she said in one scene. I just felt like this is another reason that she didn't really care that much for him
That's because he naturally didn't believe her. She said to Rebecca "what are you going to do with "it"" implying she should get rid of the baby because it would be a threat and whilst i agree with Jane here, it was still such an unnecessary thing to say especially before AJ was even born. Kenny believed she never wanted the baby around and sorry but i agree with him. If Clementine wasn't in the picture i just cannot see her wanting or trying to take care of the baby herself where as i know Kenny would
Hmm i'd have to watch that again, i don't think that seemed like a wanting to commit suicide moment to me though.
I said before it properly started as before going too far. The line was said after he swung at her first but before he charged at her the second time. But anyway...
And yet she later said "i didn't think he'd go that far" yet i know deep down she damn well knew he would. Point is she still said that line i pointed out which was just as bad. I never said she wanted to kill him "all along" but in that moment she was just as bad as he was and her patience finally reaching her limit with him makes it alright to say that does it? Also as ive said all along, Kenny threw the first punch yes but she actually started the fight because she schemed what she did to cause it to happen so she's just as much to blame. None of it would have happened otherwise.
Because she's all he has left and then later on AJ. He was a father after all, he had responsibilities for Duck and as stated before i felt he saw her as like his daughter now that he has nothing left. That's how it seemed to me anyway, given how he was so determined to find Wellington. He felt it was his responsibility, doing what's best for the kids.
I never said or meant to imply that her reasons were malicious. If i did I apologise but all i said was that her reasons were different. I think she wanted Clem around because she didn't want to be alone again like when she lost her sister. Kenny wanted what was best for Clem and AJ regardless of his own self which is in my opinion the difference.
Sorry, when i said they never asked her what she wanted to do, i was actually meaning if Clem wanted to go with Jane or stay with Kenny, not what place to survive. It's kind of the same thing really but there was never a point where either Kenny or Jane asker her are you coming with me or going with him/her regardless of what place to survive at. Does that make sense? Lol sorry.
Sorry, but he definitely charges at her twice before Jane starts fighting back. He tries to attack her first, which was when Jane shouts that what happened to the baby was an accident. Jane puts her weapon away, and tells him to not touch her, but Kenny ignores her and goes after her the second time.
It does when she's being attacked by a man who's accuses her for something she has not done, who doesn't bother to listen to the rest of her story just as soon as he sees her without the baby after being separated, and immediately assumes that she deliberately murdered him. Before the truth was revealed, Kenny was trying to murder someone off his own flawed assumptions, thus playing jury, judge, and executioner. This is not an acceptable behavior, let alone an understandable one to have when you're already dragging the rest of your team woefully unprepared to go to Wellington with no plan, direction, food, and shelter from the cold.
True, Jane instigated the fight with the ridiculous plan, but Kenny had multiple opportunities himself to not finish it the way he did, especially when his actions proved how easily and capable he was to commit murder among his own group, and especially when Jane did nothing to provoke him or taunt him into making the first move. She doesn't even get the chance to explain how the baby 'died' before Kenny assumes the worse and immediately goes for the kill. That's the main problem with the fight, and thus why Jane felt that she had to instigate the fight to prove this point to Clementine.
This scenario ended up reinforcing Jane's point about how easily Kenny could end up contemplating murdering someone among his group in a manner of seconds should anything happen to the baby, whether the carer was the culprit or not, Kenny didn't care. This makes him an incredibly dangerous individual to have in a group, let alone a self-proclaimed leader who is happy to gamble with everyone's lives, the baby included, to go to Wellington with or without their consent.
In the end, unless you were one of Kenny's 'family', you were expendable, and you would be found guilty of whatever crime he accused you of.
That doesn't mean he was going to commit suicide though.
Rich im talking about the line she says "time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery". She says that after he swung a punch but before he charged at her up against the window. I wasn't talking about when she started fighting back.
Well i disagree naturally. I don't think it's right to say that! That makes her no better at all. Like i said, she faked the whole thing, he accused her because she never wanted the baby around and she implied this a number of times, saying Rebecca should get rid of it for example. What she did regardless of her intent for Clem was disgusting and she might as well have killed the baby doing what she did. Kenny was no better but it was her fault he reacted like that. Kenny didn't believe her, he only trusted one person in that game besides himself and if you didn't like someone or trust them i'm pretty sure you'd react the same way. Not to the point of murder but who knows in an apocolypse. I think i'd do the same if someone made it appear someone i cared about was left to die. Go on? I'm as crazy as Kenny for that opinion yeah? As for everything else, i see things so so differently to what you've said.
But she was never going to "explain" because it was all bullshit to begin with. Again, if she hadn't done what she did he wouldn't have "gone for the kill" and nothing would have happened.
You know i totaly get why you and others despise Kenny and the way he is past and present but i just cannot understand why a lot of people don't think Jane's actions are just as bad all because it's not done in a violent manner the way Kenny portrays himself?
Anyway i will never ever be swayed no matter what negativity is said about Kenny. I'm sure the same can be said for you. I wish we could all sit round a table and discuss in person, it's hard to explain through a wall like this
If she never wanted the baby to begin with, then why even bother keeping the baby alive the entire time to begin with once she had AJ in her arms? Why hide him in a car she knows where to come back to and for Clementine to find, when she could have easily tossed the baby in the snow to die in the cold, to the walkers for them to snack on, or even back when Clementine was shot, she was presumably left alone with the baby while Kenny was running outside to find Clementine lying on the floor in a pool of her own blood.
Her opinion and behavior towards the baby is less "I want the baby to die" and more "I don't want to get attached to the baby", and the latter appears more truer than the former given how she had multiple opportunities to kill the baby, but she never does so. The only crime she committed was to put the baby aside in the car to formulate her plan, but the baby living was clearly part of the plan as she still choose to keep AJ alive in the car, when she could have easily killed anytime when she was separated from Kenny and Clementine.
It's not the manner of violence, it's the reasoning behind the two's actions. Jane formulated the plan because she felt desperate enough to prove that going to Wellington in their condition was suicidal, and she also recognized that everyone's lives was on Kenny's hands and she wasn't going to risk losing her life as well as Clementine's just because Kenny wouldn't take no for an answer.
As for Kenny, he proved himself to lack any sense of self-control, is stubborn to the point of lacking any sense of self-preservation as well as others, and was incapable of listening to reason and logic. I've already explained my reasoning on why I felt that Kenny was a danger to be with, and how his own actions was his own responsibility, even if Jane had instigated the fight.
I'm not here to sway your opinion. I've posted my comment to show that not everything is black and white, there are always a reason behind everyone's actions. I just happen to believe that while Jane was wrong to fake the baby's death and trick everyone, I believed that it was not entirely without justification, and that Kenny had only himself to blame for how he choose to commit murder when he had no reason to.
Because Clementine is with her and she cares enough to do what Clem wants which is care for the baby. Can i ask you honestly? All bias aside, if Clementine was not around do you think Jane would care/look after the baby on her own? Because I seriously doubt it Rich, that's basically what i'm trying to say. I'm not saying shes a complete monster but I don't think she would look after him without someone else with her.
I respect your posts, you make good points about both
Clementine: Shows up at lodge.
Kenny: Clem, Clementine! Clem! Hey, Clem!
AJ: Is born.
Kenny: Let's call him Alvin Junior! Do you like that? Oh, I think AJ approves. AJ, AJ! AJ! AJ! This baby, he's what matters now! Get your shit together!
Sarah: Exists.
Kenny: Ignores Sarah's existence. Clem!
It is kind of funny how they never directly interacted during the entire game. I wouldn't say that Kenny cares about children, only Clem and AJ in particular.
Of course that's going to anger her?? It's going to make her feel threatened, hence why she said it.
If she actually thought he was going to go that far, I highly doubt she would risk her life for it then. Jane's smart, she would have confessed about the baby.
Kenny wouldn't have any reason not to believe her since her asking Rebecca that was the only time she'd shown her fear about the baby, and plus, Kenny wasn't there. He wouldn't of had any way of knowing she said that, and I highly doubt Rebecca would've told Kenny.
And come on, she didn't even mean it in a bad way. She didn't know what Rebecca was deciding to do, and especially since at that point in time, they hadn't of found anyone yet and Jane had doubts that they would. She didn't mean it in a bad way, she was genuinely curious AND scared that the baby was going to get either Clem and Rebecca killed.
She's not a cold-hearted killer, she wouldn't abandon a defenseless baby, that's just now how she is. And don't bring up Sarah as a counter-argument, because Sarah and the baby are totally different, considering Jane thought Sarah didn't want to be saved (despite just not being physically able to, but Jane didn't know that) and wanted to die.
Dude, it's not an opinion, it's common sense. She's not educated enough to help him out of that severe depression and aggression.
Sarah and Kenny are two completely different mentalities, plus Sarah is only 4 years older than Clementine and has the mind of a child. Let's not forget that the only way to get Sarah out of the trailer park is by slapping her, not persuading her as Clementine talking to her didn't do the job well enough. And slapping someone who's distraught and anxious like Sarah was isn't a method to help them.
Jane being a capable person to take care of Clementine wasn't the bit I was saying was an opinion. It was the next bit, but nice twist:
Honestly, look how long she'd been around Kenny enough to make a drastic decision like that to do. Because all the other times, she's been mentally stable.
Wtf? That still doesn't justify it! He's not her kid, he won't ever be a father figure to her because like you said, he sees her as a REPLACEMENT. A figure of the past, I could also say. He's not being a true father figure, thus he shouldn't threaten to slap her. That's not right.
Given Clementine's age and all the people who've tried to hurt her in the past, telling her she should be slapped for saying something most likely made her feel unsafe. You should never even lay a finger on a child that isn't yours (and tbh, I don't support parents hitting children, but that's a whole different can of worms) or even threaten to do so. Especially not in a time where people are fearing for their lives.
That doesn't change the fact that he still threatened to hit her. Saying "oh, but he didn't" is watering it down like it's not an issue.
"Could've but didn't" isn't a reason as to why he would never hurt Clementine. The fact that he "could've" is bad enough, and I'm not talking generally.
Ah, yes. Mentally abusing Clementine by blaming her for someone's DEATH. That doesn't make it any better than hitting her. I just really can't see how an apology magically fixes that, considering he decided to lash out at her in the first place. You would think that he would stop himself if he knew that he didn't mean it, but the damage is already done.
I'm going to disagree here and say he called her Duck not because he saw her as his own (considering they JUST reunited after hardly speaking back at the Motor Inn), but because she reminded him of the past. Clementine and Duck spent loads of time together, they were basically stuck to each other like glue. You would hardly see Duck without Clem, and vice versa. So of course he was reminded of the past, which caused him to call her Duck.
I'm sorry, what? The only child he gave attention to was Clementine, he didn't even acknowledge Sarah's existence! And AJ is yet another replacement child (in this case, baby) because he felt like he owed it to himself to raise this kid better than he did Duck. And boy did that fail if you decide to go to Wellington and leave Kenny, considering he threw both Clem and AJ into a place that he had no certain fact that it was actually safe in there.
The only reason why he trusted her was because she was a reminder of Duck. Obviously he trusted his son, which meant he trusted Clementine, even if she disagreed with him or wanted to go back to Howe's.
Jane's clearly got trust issues because of her past experiences, I won't deny that. But you can tell she's tried her best to stay in the group, especially when Mike, Bonnie, and Arvo wanted to ditch. Jane said in the car "I didn't think they'd go that far" which gives me the suspicion that she knew they were going to leave, just not without all the supplies and shooting Clementine while they did it. She had every reason to go: No baby, no Kenny, no arguments, no Clementine, too. But she clearly stayed loyal to Clementine because she said she wouldn't abandon her again. Even if it left her stuck with Kenny and fearing because of the baby. Not to mention how well she works in tough situations with Clementine (example, Amid The Ruins, trying to find Luke and Sarah). So, clearly, Jane wouldn't abandon Clementine if things got rough.
Except Jane never implied this?? I just watched the scene, she said she was looking at the "worst case scenario" that Clem and Rebecca wouldn't be able to take care of a baby on their own due to food and necessities that it needs. She never implied that her herself would do that, she only asked what Rebecca was going to do with it.
That doesn't have anything to do with her wanting to get rid of the baby. Like I said, she's scared he's going to get someone or himself killed, that's why she's anxious around AJ a lot. Clearly, Jane's just not that good with babies. But we can't forget that back in episode 5, Jane had brought the baby into another room with just herself with him because Mike and Arvo were being too loud. She also suggests going back to Howe's with the primary reason of "Bonnie said there's baby formula there," followed by "AND we know where it is." She put the baby's necessity first. Jane does care for the baby, she's just not very good at showing it.