Given the fact he cares more about the kids wellbeing than the rest of the adults
Clementine: Shows up at lodge.
Kenny: Clem, C… morelementine! Clem! Hey, Clem!
AJ: Is born.
Kenny: Let's call him Alvin Junior! Do you like that? Oh, I think AJ approves. AJ, AJ! AJ! AJ! This baby, he's what matters now! Get your shit together!
Sarah: Exists.
Kenny: Ignores Sarah's existence. Clem!
It is kind of funny how they never directly interacted during the entire game. I wouldn't say that Kenny cares about children, only Clem and AJ in particular.
Can i ask you honestly? All bias aside, if Clementine was not around do you think Jane would care/look after the baby on her own?
Well, Jane was technically left alone in several occasions with the baby, and so far she did nothing to harm the baby or showed any signs of willing intent to kill him. It could have been so easy for an extreme survivalist to just discard the baby during the separation in the blizzard, and then lie to Clementine and Kenny about how the walkers snatched the baby off of her arms while she was trying to get away from them.
So yes, I do believe that Jane would be capable and willing to look after a baby, especially on her own.
If she never wanted the baby to begin with, then why even bother keeping the baby alive the entire time to begin with once she had AJ in her… more arms?
Because Clementine is with her and she cares enough to do what Clem wants which is care for the baby. Can i ask you honestly? All bias aside, if Clementine was not around do you think Jane would care/look after the baby on her own? Because I seriously doubt it Rich, that's basically what i'm trying to say. I'm not saying shes a complete monster but I don't think she would look after him without someone else with her.
I respect your posts, you make good points about both
Dude, it's not an opinion, it's common sense. She's not educated enough to help him out of that severe depression and aggression.
Well to you maybe but not to me, i can have this opinion, you can say i have no common sense, I won't care really.
Sarah and Kenny are two completely different mentalities, plus Sarah is only 4 years older than Clementine and has the mind of a child. Let's not forget that the only way to get Sarah out of the trailer park is by slapping her, not persuading her as Clementine talking to her didn't do the job well enough. And slapping someone who's distraught and anxious like Sarah was isn't a method to help them.
Yes i said that both were completely different and maybe she wouldn't be able to help him, this we'll never know but i think she could ok??
Jane being a capable person to take care of Clementine wasn't the bit I was saying was an opinion. It was the next bit, but nice twist:
Nice twist? I wasn't intending on twisting anything, i genuinely thought otherwise, anyway i disagree obviously.
Honestly, look how long she'd been around Kenny enough to make a drastic decision like that to do. Because all the other times, she's been mentally stable.
Doesn't change the fact that she didn't have to do such a thing to prove the point, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
Wtf? That still doesn't justify it! He's not her kid, he won't ever be a father figure to her because like you said, he sees her as a REPLACEMENT. A figure of the past, I could also say. He's not being a true father figure, thus he shouldn't threaten to slap her. That's not right.
Yes i know it is not right, i never said it was did i? But im saying that was his actions behind it and it was definitely not a meaningful threat "im going to slap you bitch" kind of attitude. Parents smack their kids when they say something naughty and what not. It's not his kid no and it's not right to treat her like she is but my point is, it was not a a threat in the way you are thinking, just words as far as im concerned nd this is something i will never change my view on. To honestly say that just because he said "i should slap you" makes some people think that he would attack her like he did Jane in my opinion is ridiculous. Call me what you like for that (i'm expecting a backlash?) I don't care but just no way, i will never accept that.
Given Clementine's age and all the people who've tried to hurt her in the past, telling her she should be slapped for saying something most likely made her feel unsafe.
And yet the damn choice is determinant anyway and even if it was a choice chosen, she doesn't show any "feeling unsafe" actions and I don't think she took that as a serious threat what he said anyway. I'm pretty certain she knows herself who and what Kenny is to make her own mind up. As i said i'm not being swayed by this.
Saying "oh, but he didn't" is watering it down like it's not an issue.
I don't think it is? Fact is he could have but didn't, yet he did to other people but not her so that's another reason i believe he would never harm her physically.
Could've but didn't" isn't a reason as to why he would never hurt Clementine. The fact that he "could've" is bad enough, and I'm not talking generally.
Again that's a good enough reason for me that he could have but didn't and that's al that matters to me. He didn't.
Ah, yes. Mentally abusing Clementine by blaming her for someone's DEATH. That doesn't make it any better than hitting her.
i agree that it doesn't and I didn't like the way he treated her this scene (ooh shocker right? But believe it or not I don't agree on everything he did) but i'm not a bitter person who constantly holds grudges on peoples actions and tear them apart even if they sometimes deserve it.
I just really can't see how an apology magically fixes that, considering he decided to lash out at her in the first place. You would think that he would stop himself if he knew that he didn't mean it, but the damage is already done.
Think for a moment, whenever Kenny has got angry he says horrible things, he calms down and you see the other side of him. I have met many people like this before who say things when angry but don't really mean it. It doesn't make it right what he said and his treatment of her and others but he just lost his second love, he felt he had to blame someone which was wrong but that is grief and everyone deals with it differently, some better than others. An apology makes it fine with me. Some people have no heart though but that's ok. You all have your reasons to hold grudges, it doesn't bother me.
I'm going to disagree here
Of course, i expected as much lol but that's fine.
he called her Duck not because he saw her as his own (considering they JUST reunited after hardly speaking back at the Motor Inn), but because she reminded him of the past.
This is something that yes could be the reason as well, it's all speculation. He probably was reminded of sitting at the table with his family one night and mistakenly called her Duck. In the car scene at the end when arguing with Jane he says "i told you not to talk about my family" just after Jane said something about Clementine which to me indicates he thinks of her as family.
I'm sorry, what?
You know you don't have to reply saying things in such a sarcastic way. At least it seems like that to me. I'm not trying to be horrible to you am i?
The only child he gave attention to was Clementine, he didn't even acknowledge Sarah's existence!
i agree but this in my opinion was down to bad writing or lack of episode time to show his relationship with other characters. To be fair he didn't know Sarah nor get the chance to get to know her.
And boy did that fail if you decide to go to Wellington and leave Kenny, considering he threw both Clem and AJ into a place that he had no certain fact that it was actually safe in there.
Again its determinant and that is your opinion that it could have been unsafe but given the way they were set up and willing to give out supplies, i felt it was safe. But again Kenny still gets put down (you must really hate him?) even though his actions in this scene shows he's trying to do the right thing yet he still gets negativity but hey fine! It doesn't really matter though because i loved this scene and felt what he did for the kids made up for everything bad he did. Sorry if that opinion offends you.
The only reason why he trusted her was because she was a reminder of Duck.
Was that mentioned somewhere? Personally i think it's because of (even though not much interaction in S1) everything they went through together with Lee and the fact that he knows her enough to trust her over other people.
Jane's clearly got trust issues because of her past experiences, I won't deny that. But you can tell she's tried her best to stay in the group, especially when Mike, Bonnie, and Arvo wanted to ditch
Yeah she came back i'll give her that and she's a damn sight better than Mike Bonnie and Arvo. And the former two proved they didn't give a shit about Clem and only for themselves.
So, clearly, Jane wouldn't abandon Clementine if things got rough.
My point is she did it once so she could easily do it again. She had a change of heart and came back and said she wouldn't leave her again. We would have to see if she'd stay true to those words and hopefully she would.
Sorry, off to work. Thanks again, hope i don't get into a heated argument over all this.
Ok but how do we know she couldn't help him? It's basically your opinion that she can't yet i think she could.
Dude, it's not an opi… morenion, it's common sense. She's not educated enough to help him out of that severe depression and aggression.
She seemed to be getting through to Sarah when trying to persuade her to leave the trailer?
Sarah and Kenny are two completely different mentalities, plus Sarah is only 4 years older than Clementine and has the mind of a child. Let's not forget that the only way to get Sarah out of the trailer park is by slapping her, not persuading her as Clementine talking to her didn't do the job well enough. And slapping someone who's distraught and anxious like Sarah was isn't a method to help them.
Yup your right it is certainly a matter of opinion lol
Jane being a capable person to take care of Clementine wasn't the bit I was saying was an opinion. It was the next bit, but nice tw… [view original content]
Kenny wouldn't have any reason not to believe her since her asking Rebecca that was the only time she'd shown her fear about the baby, and plus, Kenny wasn't there. He wouldn't of had any way of knowing she said that, and I highly doubt Rebecca would've told Kenny.
Why did Kenny say "she didn't want the baby around, she made that clear"? How do we know it wasn't mentioned? It is unclear though i do agree.
I'm not saying nor have ever said she was a cold blooded killer. I'm just saying that she gives me the impression that in certain situations she would leave people behind as in the reasons i've stated in the past. She's not an evil person, i just don't like her very much. Again sorry if that bothers you but not everyone can be liked
That's because he naturally didn't believe her. She said to Rebecca "what are you going to do with "it"" implying she should get rid of the … morebaby because it would be a threat
Kenny wouldn't have any reason not to believe her since her asking Rebecca that was the only time she'd shown her fear about the baby, and plus, Kenny wasn't there. He wouldn't of had any way of knowing she said that, and I highly doubt Rebecca would've told Kenny.
And come on, she didn't even mean it in a bad way. She didn't know what Rebecca was deciding to do, and especially since at that point in time, they hadn't of found anyone yet and Jane had doubts that they would. She didn't mean it in a bad way, she was genuinely curious AND scared that the baby was going to get either Clem and Rebecca killed.
If Clementine wasn't in the picture i just cannot see her wanting or trying to take care of the baby herself where as i know Kenny would
She's no… [view original content]
Well, Jane was technically left alone in several occasions with the baby
Yes but Clementine though not with her for a brief moment was still in her life. I was referring to if Jane had not met her or if she found a baby abandoned by chance. That's what i meant by if Clem wasn't around.
I think she would be capable to look after him too but willing? No not on her own, sorry just what i think.
Can i ask you honestly? All bias aside, if Clementine was not around do you think Jane would care/look after the baby on her own?
We… morell, Jane was technically left alone in several occasions with the baby, and so far she did nothing to harm the baby or showed any signs of willing intent to kill him. It could have been so easy for an extreme survivalist to just discard the baby during the separation in the blizzard, and then lie to Clementine and Kenny about how the walkers snatched the baby off of her arms while she was trying to get away from them.
So yes, I do believe that Jane would be capable and willing to look after a baby, especially on her own.
Well to you maybe but not to me, i can have this opinion, you can say i have no common sense, I won't care really.
Not my problem, then.
Yes i said that both were completely different and maybe she wouldn't be able to help him, this we'll never know but i think she could ok??
Except I gave clear reasoning as to why she wouldn't be able to. You can deny it all you want, that doesn't change the fact that Clementine isn't a genius.
i genuinely thought otherwise, anyway i disagree obviously.
Again, blatantly denying isn't going to get your very far.
Doesn't change the fact that she didn't have to do such a thing to prove the point, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
And Kenny didn't have to yell at Clementine to release anger, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
Matter of fact is, people do drastic things when they fell like they or the life of someone elses (in this case, Clementine) is in danger. I'm hoping you won't deny that obvious statement.
But im saying that was his actions behind it and it was definitely not a meaningful threat "im going to slap you bitch" kind of attitude
It doesn't matter how he meant it, he still said that he should slap her which is ultimately wrong for many reasons that I already explained.
but my point is, it was not a a threat in the way you are thinking, just words as far as im concerned
Again, I've already explained how "just words" can make Clementine feel unsafe with Kenny simply for voicing her opinion.
To honestly say that just because he said "i should slap you" makes some people think that he would attack her like he did Jane in my opinion is ridiculous.
Wtf? I don't get how a slap is equivalent to how he attacked Jane, considering I never even said that. It wasn't even implied, and literally no one thinks that. So it's better if you try to at least not pull these claims out of a hat and just chuck it in for the sake of it.
but just no way, i will never accept that.
You really do deny a lot of shit tbh. If you're just going to do that and not bring up any valid points, then maybe you should stop replying?
And yet the damn choice is determinant anyway
How does that even change the fact that Kenny's character made the conscious decision to say something like that? Your point is invalid.
I don't think it is? Fact is he could have but didn't, yet he did to other people but not her so that's another reason i believe he would never harm her physically.
It is watering it down. And worst case scenario, Clem accidentally gets the baby killed like Kenny believed Jane did, who's to say he wouldn't hurt her for that? He charged at Jane without even knowing all the facts, there's a good chance he'd hurt her somehow.
i agree that it doesn't and I didn't like the way he treated her this scene (ooh shocker right? But believe it or not I don't agree on everything he did) but i'm not a bitter person who constantly holds grudges on peoples actions and tear them apart even if they sometimes deserve it.
So I'm a bitter person because I acknowledge "sorry" can't fix something as abusive as what Kenny said? If I threw a plate on the ground and it shattered into pieces, do you think if I say "sorry" that it'll be as if the pieces didn't break? Or are you just going to deny that the pieces even broke, or say that the pieces magically got fixed?
An apology makes it fine with me. Some people have no heart though but that's ok. You all have your reasons to hold grudges, it doesn't bother me.
I'm not holding a grudge, of course he regrets what he did, but that still doesn't change the fact that he did it. Clementine's only a child, still. No matter what you say (or deny, I should say), Clem is going to feel shit about something that for the rest of her life because someone she trusted fucked her over. And I don't think that "sorry" can fix what she's dealt with because of it.
In the car scene at the end when arguing with Jane he says "i told you not to talk about my family" just after Jane said something about Clementine which to me indicates he thinks of her as family.
I don't think that was about Clementine, I'm pretty sure he was still pissed about her talking about his actual family + Sarita (that he'd obviously consider family since they were partners).
You know you don't have to reply saying things in such a sarcastic way. At least it seems like that to me. I'm not trying to be horrible to you am i?
Sarcasm is part of me, it's actually really hard to eradicate, which is why I don't. But me saying "I'm sorry, what?" shouldn't really get on your nerves since that's fairly minor. But if it does, then I apologize, but I hope you don't take offense to it or anything else. And no you're not trying to be horrible to me, I know that.
i agree but this in my opinion was down to bad writing or lack of episode time to show his relationship with other characters. To be fair he didn't know Sarah nor get the chance to get to know her.
Okay, so you can't claim that he "cares about the children's wellbeing" since that wasn't the case. And yes, I know the bad writing that Season 2 came with makes characters very hard to justify/explain, but I really do hope you try your hardest to justify/explain them.
Again its determinant
Again, that's invalid.
and that is your opinion
How is that an opinion? You can't call everything I say an opinion, you know that right? It's pretty clear that Kenny knew only rumors of what Wellington was like, and doesn't know anything for a fact about how children (or even adults) are treated. Sending them into Wellington was not only risky, but could be extremely unsafe. And that's a fact.
but given the way they were set up and willing to give out supplies, i felt it was safe.
Fair enough. As I said, " could be extemely unsafe ", not certainly. Just want to make that clear just in case.
But again Kenny still gets put down (you must really hate him?)
I actually don't hate Kenny. I think his character is very well written and in depth. From a personality stand point, he really does shit me up the wall. But I know his intentions are best, but that doesn't make what he does best.
even though his actions in this scene shows he's trying to do the right thing yet he still gets negativity but hey fine!
I'm not denying that his actions were meant with the best intention, I'm saying that it was risky and contradictory to really trying to keep them safe. Please don't get the wrong idea.
It doesn't really matter though because i loved this scene and felt what he did for the kids made up for everything bad he did. Sorry if that opinion offends you.
That's completely fine that you love this scene. I'm not trying to debate your opinions, just your arguments for Kenny's defense. What you like and don't like is fine by me, I'm not a person to get "offended" by any of these discussions (unless you're shit talking a character that doesn't deserve it OR LUKE ). So honestly, your opinion isn't offensive at all (don't see why it should be anyway). I agree, the scene was really nice and touching.
My point is she did it once so she could easily do it again.
And MY point is that she's come a long way from that and proved that she wouldn't abandon Clem again by not ditching her to go with Mike and Bonnie.
Dude, it's not an opinion, it's common sense. She's not educated enough to help him out of that severe depression and aggression.
We… morell to you maybe but not to me, i can have this opinion, you can say i have no common sense, I won't care really.
Sarah and Kenny are two completely different mentalities, plus Sarah is only 4 years older than Clementine and has the mind of a child. Let's not forget that the only way to get Sarah out of the trailer park is by slapping her, not persuading her as Clementine talking to her didn't do the job well enough. And slapping someone who's distraught and anxious like Sarah was isn't a method to help them.
Yes i said that both were completely different and maybe she wouldn't be able to help him, this we'll never know but i think she could ok??
Jane being a capable person to take care of Clementine wasn't the bit I was saying was an opinion. It was the next bit, but nice twist:
… [view original content]
You gave reasoning on what you "think" she wouldn't be able to. Maybe your right but maybe your wrong. There is no right or wrong and that's that. You don't have to be horrible saying "you can deny all you want" or "blatently denying won't get you very far"? I mean why be like that? If i've annoyed you then I'm sorry but i've not said or intended to insult you over your opinions
Well to you maybe but not to me, i can have this opinion, you can say i have no common sense, I won't care really.
Not my problem, t… morehen.
Yes i said that both were completely different and maybe she wouldn't be able to help him, this we'll never know but i think she could ok??
Except I gave clear reasoning as to why she wouldn't be able to. You can deny it all you want, that doesn't change the fact that Clementine isn't a genius.
i genuinely thought otherwise, anyway i disagree obviously.
Again, blatantly denying isn't going to get your very far.
Doesn't change the fact that she didn't have to do such a thing to prove the point, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
And Kenny didn't have to yell at Clementine to release anger, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
Matter of fact is, people do drastic things when they fell like they or the life of someone elses… [view original content]
Why did Kenny say "she didn't want the baby around, she made that clear"? How do we know it wasn't mentioned? It is unclear though i do agree.
When did Kenny say that? And he could've meant by how Jane showed how anxious she was near the baby in general.
I'm just saying that she gives me the impression that in certain situations she would leave people behind as in the reasons i've stated in the past.
Well I guess it's just got something to do with how you read the character then, because she really doesn't strike me as a person that would have the heart to leave the baby behind in any situation.
i just don't like her very much. Again sorry if that bothers you but not everyone can be liked
I'm not saying you have to like her, I'm just trying to tell you that what you think of her can be changed because of her other (good) actions that seem so go very unnoticed in this community. I just feel like Jane's had a very big disadvantage from as soon as she started feuding with Kenny because of how popular he was. Trust me, I didn't like Jane either in the beginning, but I really did analyse her character and her lines in multiple playthroughs and I felt a change of heart because I could really see that she never meant to hurt those who didn't hurt her first. She's just a person too afraid to die, which is why she decides to act so coldly.
So even if after all these points I've brought up and clarification, that you still don't like Jane, then that's totally fine. I'm not bothered or offended, that's your choice and it's not my right to have any kind of say over that. Like you said, not everyone can be liked.
Kenny wouldn't have any reason not to believe her since her asking Rebecca that was the only time she'd shown her fear about the baby, and p… morelus, Kenny wasn't there. He wouldn't of had any way of knowing she said that, and I highly doubt Rebecca would've told Kenny.
Why did Kenny say "she didn't want the baby around, she made that clear"? How do we know it wasn't mentioned? It is unclear though i do agree.
I'm not saying nor have ever said she was a cold blooded killer. I'm just saying that she gives me the impression that in certain situations she would leave people behind as in the reasons i've stated in the past. She's not an evil person, i just don't like her very much. Again sorry if that bothers you but not everyone can be liked
You're not being very grounded, is all. I mean, I've told you that Clem's only a little girl, she's not a therapist. She can't help Kenny in the way that you think she can, and I'm talking about the death of his family, his mental breakdown(s), his aggression, his inability to be accepting of other peoples ideas, etc. She's not educated enough for that, and you saying "maybe you're right maybe you're wrong" is denying that that is a fact. I'm talking from a psychological standpoint here, I'm not trying to be horrible, I'm trying to get it through to you that Clementine can only do so much, but she's merely a band-aid to Kenny's mental state. She can't fix him.
You gave reasoning on what you "think" she wouldn't be able to. Maybe your right but maybe your wrong. There is no right or wrong and that's… more that. You don't have to be horrible saying "you can deny all you want" or "blatently denying won't get you very far"? I mean why be like that? If i've annoyed you then I'm sorry but i've not said or intended to insult you over your opinions
Matter of fact is, people do drastic things when they fell like they or the life of someone elses (in this case, Clementine) is in danger. I'm hoping you won't deny that obvious statement.
No I won't deny that, i think we all know that people do drastic things. But why would it bother you if i did deny it when you say "im hoping you won't"? Why should it bother you? At least it sounds like you are annoyed by this.
So it's better if you try to at least not pull these claims out of a hat and just chuck it in for the sake of it.
I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. I have no reason to lie about this. There was someone on youtube saying vile things about anyone who liked Kenny and brought up the "slap" issue and said he would attack Clementine like he did Jane just because he said "i should slap you" which i do not agree with at all because i do not think he would attack her like he did Jane. I'd find it to post if there weren't thousands of comments on the video. I'm not chucking in anything for the sake of it! It just sounds to me now especially your last line that you are telling me what i can and can't say about this scene and making it sound like this is a fact when it's not.
You really do deny a lot of shit tbh. If you're just going to do that and not bring up any valid points, then maybe you should stop replying?
Oh thanks that's a really nice thing to say. I deny shit just because i disagree with you? And you think you are right about everything do you? I don't go round saying this person and that person talk shit or deny this and that. Nice, thank you again. If i want to state something on here be it important to you or not then i will. I have the freedom to do so and im sorry if you don't like that or what i say isn't important. Again if i have taken this the wrong way i also apologise but that comment offended me because i feel i don't deny a lot of shit as you say but again thanks a lot. I see how it is from your point of view but I don't think you see it from my point of view, i've tried to explain why i disagree.
He charged at Jane without even knowing all the facts, there's a good chance he'd hurt her somehow.
You are free to believe that but i do not think he would and i have said why. He cared as much for Sarita as the baby and when she died he blamed Clem for it but didn't charge at her for it but he did for Jane so why didn't he physically attack Clem? That's why i believe he would not hurt her and sorry but i'm not going to change my opinion on that so please (if you are) stop trying to change mine. I'm not here insulting you saying your wrong for your opinion am I? So please respect mine, i'd appreciate it.
So I'm a bitter person because I acknowledge "sorry" can't fix something as abusive as what Kenny said? If I threw a plate on the ground and it shattered into pieces, do you think if I say "sorry" that it'll be as if the pieces didn't break? Or are you just going to deny that the pieces even broke, or say that the pieces magically got fixed?
I'm not saying it was right how he treated her but i'm a forgiving person and i know he didn't mean it so that's good enough for me. If Clementine can forgive Ben for running off like a coward leaving her to die in Around Every Corner then why can't she forgive Kenny over his outburst to her (with the option "it's ok i know you didn't mean it")?
Im sure if we weren't talking about Kenny you are probably a nice guy/girl and we could have a civil conversation about things we like/dislike. Arguments start whenever Jane/Kenny are brought up. I wasn't calling you bitter in particular but there are those who literally post things and every single thing they say about Kenny is negative and you've done the same here whether intentional or not. It's fine for you to slate his character, i don't have a problem that but where's the positives for Kenny from you? Anything at all? Just out of interest? I've actually stated the good things i felt that Jane did and if it means so much to you i'll try and find the post i said that but it was a while ago.
I'm not holding a grudge
well it sounds it to me, pointing out every single bad thing Kenny has done (which is fine) but not mentioning every good he has done as well as he mentioned above? I can sit here and point out all the bad things he's done as well and there are a lot of things i've not agreed on. But i can't hate him, he's one of my fav characters and i forgive a lot of shit he's done and i guess i sympathise with him because i witnessed him losing his family where as with Jane or Luke or most other characters in the game, their family wasn't there for me to feel a sense of a loss for them. That's just how it is with me and i'm not going to change my opinion about Kenny. If you don't like it that's fine but sometimes what you say sounds insulting to me but once again, sorry if it's not your intention.
Clem is going to feel shit about something that for the rest of her life because someone she trusted fucked her over. And I don't think that "sorry" can fix what she's dealt with because of it.
When Kenny apologises there is an option to say "it's ok i know you didn't really mean it", it's a determinant choice (that i bet you'll say is invalid right?) but by choosing that, you are not choosing the line "you really hurt me with what you said". So us as players can say those options depending on how we feel. As i said, sorry fixes it for me and that's all that matters. It's fine that it doesn't for you.
Sarcasm is part of me, it's actually really hard to eradicate, which is why I don't. But me saying "I'm sorry, what?" shouldn't really get on your nerves since that's fairly minor. But if it does, then I apologize, but I hope you don't take offense to it or anything else. And no you're not trying to be horrible to me, I know that.
Ok then.
Okay, so you can't claim that he "cares about the children's wellbeing" since that wasn't the case. And yes, I know the bad writing that Season 2 came with makes characters very hard to justify/explain, but I really do hope you try your hardest to justify/explain them.
Do you think that the fact he stayed around in the group trying to find safety for everyone (even if his plans wasn't the best) that he didn't care about anyone in the group including Sarah? Because he didn't have to deliver Rebecca's baby but he did, he seemed very annoyed after Luke died even though they argued a lot. I think if he truly hated the group he wouldn't have tried doing what he did for all of them. Again the writing issue is that they didn't explore any interaction with him and Sarah but we cannot simply say "he didn't care" about the children's wellbeing. Sarah was struggling to cope with everything after her dad died and obviously Kenny had his own problems, plus she had Clementine as her her rock including Luke and Rebecca who she had known longer. But like i said, i agree that he didn't acknowledge anything about her and i wish the writers had looked into this.
Sending them into Wellington was not only risky, but could be extremely unsafe. And that's a fact.
And I have told you the reasons why I think that it could also be safe and not just unsafe as you believe it could be.
EDIT - Just seen your response below to this. That's fine.
I actually don't hate Kenny. I think his character is very well written and in depth. From a personality stand point, he really does shit me up the wall. But I know his intentions are best, but that doesn't make what he does best.
Oh totally! I certainly know what he does isn't always smart. He's done some very stupid things and a number of things i have disagreed with. You may not think this because of my defence of him but i try to be a very neutral player and i will gladly say when i like or don't like something a character has done but there are some people who just can't forgive and forget or decide to always pick and pull at a characters negative traits and never look at the other side of someone. I'm not saying you are like that though.
I'm not denying that his actions were meant with the best intention, I'm saying that it was risky and contradictory to really trying to keep them safe. Please don't get the wrong idea.
That's fine, i most likely have took it the wrong way. I guess it's the way you have written it so i'll try to understand your way of writing.
And MY point is that she's come a long way from that and proved that she wouldn't abandon Clem again by not ditching her to go with Mike and Bonnie.
Again it's a maybe or maybe not situation for me but that's just what i think and it's not a fact that she would leave and it's not a fact that she wouldn't. We'd have to see in the future if there was ever a situation where that could happen. Personally I don't think she would have left with Mike, Bonnie and Arvo either if she had known about their plan. I think we can both agree that those 3 can go fuck themselves after what they did!
Well to you maybe but not to me, i can have this opinion, you can say i have no common sense, I won't care really.
Not my problem, t… morehen.
Yes i said that both were completely different and maybe she wouldn't be able to help him, this we'll never know but i think she could ok??
Except I gave clear reasoning as to why she wouldn't be able to. You can deny it all you want, that doesn't change the fact that Clementine isn't a genius.
i genuinely thought otherwise, anyway i disagree obviously.
Again, blatantly denying isn't going to get your very far.
Doesn't change the fact that she didn't have to do such a thing to prove the point, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
And Kenny didn't have to yell at Clementine to release anger, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
Matter of fact is, people do drastic things when they fell like they or the life of someone elses… [view original content]
When did Kenny say that? And he could've meant by how Jane showed how anxious she was near the baby in general.
He said it after Jane dies and just after Clem finds AJ in the car. Clem can say "I thought Jane might have killed him" and he responds with "I was thinking the same thing Clem. It was why i was so fired up. She never wanted the baby around, she made that clear."
Well I guess it's just got something to do with how you read the character then, because she really doesn't strike me as a person that would have the heart to leave the baby behind in any situation.
I guess so but that's fine both ways.
I'm not saying you have to like her, I'm just trying to tell you that what you think of her can be changed because of her other (good) actions that seem so go very unnoticed in this community.
Well my opinion of Jane can't be changed just as yours probably can't be changed about Kenny. Difference is with some people on this forum (not saying you), i'm not trying to change people's opinions of Jane or Kenny like some are. At least it's not my intention to. But i see what you are saying and it's nice to see you making your points. It makes for interesting read but that's all tbh.
I'm not bothered or offended, that's your choice and it's not my right to have any kind of say over that. Like you said, not everyone can be liked.
Ok well i'll try not to take offence at your replies. They're your opinions after all
Why did Kenny say "she didn't want the baby around, she made that clear"? How do we know it wasn't mentioned? It is unclear though i do agre… moree.
When did Kenny say that? And he could've meant by how Jane showed how anxious she was near the baby in general.
I'm just saying that she gives me the impression that in certain situations she would leave people behind as in the reasons i've stated in the past.
Well I guess it's just got something to do with how you read the character then, because she really doesn't strike me as a person that would have the heart to leave the baby behind in any situation.
i just don't like her very much. Again sorry if that bothers you but not everyone can be liked
I'm not saying you have to like her, I'm just trying to tell you that what you think of her can be changed because of her other (good) actions that seem so go very unnoticed in this community. I just feel like Jane's had a… [view original content]
I'm not saying she can magically fix his aggression and depression but i feel she can help tame the beast if you like. That's what i meant by helping him through it, i never said help him get over it. But overall I think it's best we agree to disagree on this
You're not being very grounded, is all. I mean, I've told you that Clem's only a little girl, she's not a therapist. She can't help Kenny in… more the way that you think she can, and I'm talking about the death of his family, his mental breakdown(s), his aggression, his inability to be accepting of other peoples ideas, etc. She's not educated enough for that, and you saying "maybe you're right maybe you're wrong" is denying that that is a fact. I'm talking from a psychological standpoint here, I'm not trying to be horrible, I'm trying to get it through to you that Clementine can only do so much, but she's merely a band-aid to Kenny's mental state. She can't fix him.
No I won't deny that, i think we all know that people do drastic things. But why would it bother you if i did deny it when you say "im hoping you won't"? Why should it bother you? At least it sounds like you are annoyed by this.
I've already explained why I get annoyed when you flat out deny things without a proper valid point to back it up.
There was someone on youtube saying vile things about anyone who liked Kenny and brought up the "slap" issue and said he would attack Clementine like he did Jane just because he said "i should slap you"
Except that has no place being here because it was never brought up in my point. So it's redundant.
Oh thanks that's a really nice thing to say. I deny shit just because i disagree with you?
No, you deny shit, while disagreeing, and don't bring up any valid points to back up why you disagree. Sometimes you just say "it's an opinion" and go onto the next thing I say.
And you think you are right about everything do you?
Obviously not. Quit reaching.
I see how it is from your point of view but I don't think you see it from my point of view, i've tried to explain why i disagree.
I honestly don't think you see it from my point at all, because if you did, you'd realize that the things I say are backed up with evidence and facts (or in few cases, most likeliness), and you just say "that's your opinion" or "I disagree and won't change my mind." If you're going to do that, and again, not trying to be "horrible" or anything, then simply stop replying and save your time.
He cared as much for Sarita as the baby and when she died he blamed Clem for it but didn't charge at her for it but he did for Jane so why didn't he physically attack Clem?
I don't think you realize that at that point in time, Kenny had just transitioned from loving someone to being depressed. Kenny, while "letting out anger" by shouting at Clem, knew it wasn't her fault. He witnessed what happened to Sarita. Now that the baby is born, he attached to it and didn't want anything to happen to AJ because he'd already lost so much.
An analogy that I can give you to explain this better, is like getting a new pair of really good headphones and it lasts a while (Katjaa and Duck). Then when they break, you're sad and annoyed (obviously), so you get a new pair (Sarita). Then once that pair breaks after not too long of having it, you begin to get frustrated. So you buy another new pair of headphones (AJ) and try to take really good care of it so they don't break like the others, and then you lend them to a friend (Jane) and assume they'd take good care of it. Then when it's time to get them back, they don't have it with them, so you go ape shit.
The baby obviously means a lot to Kenny because he sees that taking care of AJ is like a redemption for not being the best father he could to Duck. Now obviously he's not going to charge at Clementine and full on attack her like he did to Jane, but there's a good chance (which doesn't mean he will certainly do it) he could use violence against her if she ever failed to keep the baby safe. And I swear to God, this isn't an opinion. Again, common sense.
sorry but i'm not going to change my opinion on that so please (if you are) stop trying to change mine.
Giving you information so that you can understand that what you believe isn't a logical belief isn't "trying to change your opinion," it's letting you have the chance to take in what I said and choose to adapt to the info or not. If you're just going to ignore what I'm saying and stick to the belief you have, then you're wasting both mine and your time. And again, you can stop replying. (shit, you don't even have to stop replying. you can just skip over the part you're going to not care about and go onto the next).
I'm not here insulting you saying your wrong for your opinion am I? So please respect mine, i'd appreciate it.
I'm not even insulting you for your opinion. Do you know what I'd appreciate? For you stop telling me what you think I'm doing because I know what I'm doing.
Until you do that, will I respect you.
I'm not saying it was right how he treated her but i'm a forgiving person and i know he didn't mean it so that's good enough for me.
That's fine, but me not doing what you're doing doesn't make me a bitter person for refusing to shrug it off as easily as you do.
If Clementine can forgive Ben for running off like a coward leaving her to die in Around Every Corner then why can't she forgive Kenny over his outburst to her
If Hitler can kill millions of people for not having blonde hair and blue eyes, then why can't I kill people for not having a hair/eye color I like?
I'm not saying what you decided to do was wrong, I'm just trying to say that your comparison wasn't a very good one since Clem and you are two different people. (As are Hitler and I, just wanna make that clear lol).
Im sure if we weren't talking about Kenny you are probably a nice guy/girl and we could have a civil conversation about things we like/dislike.
Well as far as I know, we're both trying to be civil. Kenny/Jane discussions don't dictate if I'm civil or not. (Luke discussions get me heated tho lmao)
I wasn't calling you bitter in particular but there are those who literally post things and every single thing they say about Kenny is negative and you've done the same here whether intentional or not.
You do realize that I actually have brought up good things that Kenny has done, right? Just like I've brought up bad things that Jane has done, despite the fact that I'm trying to get people to acknowledge the majority of good she's done? That's how debates work, my friend. We're talking about the bad that Kenny's done and how people seem to gloss over that and excuse it because he's a fan favourite, and how Jane's good deeds have also been glossed over and she's known for her few bad actions (that I've explained). If bringing up the bad shit Kenny has done bothers you in anyway, then Kenny/Jane discussions just aren't your type of challenge then.
But i can't hate him, he's one of my fav characters and i forgive a lot of shit he's done and i guess i sympathise with him because i witnessed him losing his family where as with Jane or Luke or most other characters in the game, their family wasn't there for me to feel a sense of a loss for them.
I understand that and have nothing against that, by all means I'm not trying to make you hate Kenny. That's not and never will be my intention for anyone I debate against.
i don't have a problem that but where's the positives for Kenny from you? Anything at all? Just out of interest?
Please go over my posts and read them again because I definitely have said good things about Kenny, and I really hope you're not ignoring them.
but not mentioning every good he has done as well as he mentioned above?
You do realize that this is a debate, right? A debate where I'm arguing that Kenny has done bad and Jane has done good, contrary to popular belief? My goal isn't to stay on the fence about Kenny, and like I've said before I know his intentions are good, but there's a lot of bad stuff that Kenny has done to the point where it's abusive.
sometimes what you say sounds insulting to me but once again, sorry if it's not your intention.
It's not and please don't think it is. I'm not going to insult anyone over their opinion (unless their opinion insults others, then y'know, but yours don't).
When Kenny apologises there is an option to say "it's ok i know you didn't really mean it", it's a determinant choice (that i bet you'll say is invalid right?) but by choosing that, you are not choosing the line "you really hurt me with what you said". So us as players can say those options depending on how we feel.
I'm not going to say that Clem saying "it's okay" means she's lying and it's not okay, but I will say that whether she forgives him or not, there's still going to be psychological damage left there because that's how the human brain works. If someone brought up that Sarita died or that Kenny blamed her, she's still going to a negative emotion over it despite Kenny apologizing and her forgiving.
Do you think that the fact he stayed around in the group trying to find safety for everyone (even if his plans wasn't the best) that he didn't care about anyone in the group including Sarah?
Kenny obviously believes in safety in numbers since he's hardly ever alone unless he was separated from them or knew he was going to return to the group (like when he and Luke went to check the transformer, he wasn't actually leaving the group). In the Motor-Inn, he disliked Lilly and Larry a lot, but still stayed because he believed in safety with numbers. (I might be wrong about this, so don't hold me accountable, but I think Kenny may have even brought up the fact that he thinks being with multiple people is safer).
He surely didn't care about some people in the group. He wanted to hurry up and leave the observation deck despite Rebecca just giving birth. He didn't even acknowledge Sarah's death. Whenever the group had other ideas, he told them that he didn't care what they thought and that his idea was the one they should go with. If they even disagreed with him he'd be bitter towards them.
Because he didn't have to deliver Rebecca's baby but he did
Technically, no, he didn't. But generally, yes, he did, because he was the only person who knew about babies. And it isn't in character for Kenny to not deliver the baby anyway, he just isn't that type of guy.
he seemed very annoyed after Luke died even though they argued a lot
The only thing I can explain for that is that Kenny knew Luke was a good guy all long, knew that he was a good leader too, which is why they most likely butted heads. He might have felt threatened as he was the leader of the group Clementine was with, but could've soon realized that Luke's intentions weren't ever bad and he was a good person. I figure it's got something to do with masculinity or something, but this is all just a theory. (but tbh who can hate Luke, I mean come on. he's got puppy eyes for shit sake).
I also think it's got something to do with Arvo running away which made him already mad, and he probably thought that because Arvo did that, Luke got distracted, which sent both Luke and Clem (if Clem breaks the ice in the [Cover Luke] option) and determinately Bonnie down into the water. But because it's Kenny, he was pissed that Clem fell in.
I think if he truly hated the group he wouldn't have tried doing what he did for all of them.
I never said he hated the group, and I'm sure both you and I know that he didn't hate them. But there's only so little of what good Kenny actually did for the group since he was either focused on Sarita or AJ the rest of the time.
Again the writing issue is that they didn't explore any interaction with him and Sarah but we cannot simply say "he didn't care" about the children's wellbeing
I wouldn't say "the children's" wellbeing, more like he didn't care for Sarah's. I just don't see why they wouldn't implement him at least talking to Sarah about something, but since they didn't and it's in the story that he doesn't even pay attention to Sarah, we're gonna have to chalk it up as he didn't care about her.
But like i said, i agree that he didn't acknowledge anything about her and i wish the writers had looked into this.
Yes they definitely should have.
Again it's a maybe or maybe not situation for me but that's just what i think and it's not a fact that she would leave and it's not a fact that she wouldn't.
Well, I can't make you see the other side of it and that's okay, but just know that how she acted after first leaving, it's just more likely (not fact) that she wouldn't ditch Clem.
I think we can both agree that those 3 can go fuck themselves after what they did!
Agreed. Though I do understand the reason as to why they wanted to leave. Them wanting to leave because of Kenny shouldn't be what makes you dislike them (as it's not what makes me dislike them), but stealing ALL the supplies knowing full well that their's a baby in the group, Arvo shooting Clementine, and Mike and Bonnie running away after it, should be what makes you dislike them.
Matter of fact is, people do drastic things when they fell like they or the life of someone elses (in this case, Clementine) is in danger. I… more'm hoping you won't deny that obvious statement.
No I won't deny that, i think we all know that people do drastic things. But why would it bother you if i did deny it when you say "im hoping you won't"? Why should it bother you? At least it sounds like you are annoyed by this.
So it's better if you try to at least not pull these claims out of a hat and just chuck it in for the sake of it.
I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. I have no reason to lie about this. There was someone on youtube saying vile things about anyone who liked Kenny and brought up the "slap" issue and said he would attack Clementine like he did Jane just because he said "i should slap you" which i do not agree with at all because i do not think he would attack her like he did Jane. I'd find it to post if there wer… [view original content]
He said it after Jane dies and just after Clem finds AJ in the car. Clem can say "I thought Jane might have killed him" and he responds with "I was thinking the same thing Clem. It was why i was so fired up. She never wanted the baby around, she made that clear."
I think he meant that she made it clear by hiding the baby and saying he died, thinking that she was trying to get rid of him, when actually she was trying to prove a point to Clem.
Well my opinion of Jane can't be changed just as yours probably can't be changed about Kenny.
My opinion of Kenny isn't a negative one. I acknowledge that he's dangerous, aggressive, irrational, and not fit to take care of a kid because of the trauma he's gone through in the outbreak. His behaviour is warped because of the shit that's happened to him, which brings me back to my point of Clem not being able to fix him. But I still like him because of his intentions being good.
But your opinion of Jane strikes me as that you acknowledge that she's not that bad of a person, but still choose to dislike her anyway. (If that's not your intention, then I apologize). And I know I can't change that, but it does paint you in quite the bad light. That's like me, even though I know Kenny tries to be good and his intentions are good, disliking him because of the bad stuff he's done. But I don't, I do like Kenny.
So it just seems a bit hypocritical that you forgive and like Kenny for the bad stuff he's done because you know his intentions were good and that something drove him to do it, but you won't do that for Jane when she's done bad stuff, but her intentions are all in the right place like Kenny's was.
Difference is with some people on this forum (not saying you), i'm not trying to change people's opinions of Jane or Kenny like some are.
Educating them about the characters and trying to change their mind about characters are two different things. That's why people have debates about Jane and Kenny so much because of despite contrary belief, there's more to the two characters other than "Jane hid the baby and wanted to leave Sarah! She's evil!" and "Kenny's only like this because he cares! He never did anything wrong!" (Not saying you're like this).
But i see what you are saying and it's nice to see you making your points. It makes for interesting read but that's all tbh.
Oh boy, have the tables turned. I think I can say this without feeling any sinking feeling, but...
That's your opinion.
I'm glad that my points sound interesting to you, but I hoped that you'd take them into account and see these characters in a different light than what you started out with. I mean, that's why we're having this whole debate, right?
When did Kenny say that? And he could've meant by how Jane showed how anxious she was near the baby in general.
He said it after Jan… moree dies and just after Clem finds AJ in the car. Clem can say "I thought Jane might have killed him" and he responds with "I was thinking the same thing Clem. It was why i was so fired up. She never wanted the baby around, she made that clear."
Well I guess it's just got something to do with how you read the character then, because she really doesn't strike me as a person that would have the heart to leave the baby behind in any situation.
I guess so but that's fine both ways.
I'm not saying you have to like her, I'm just trying to tell you that what you think of her can be changed because of her other (good) actions that seem so go very unnoticed in this community.
Well my opinion of Jane can't be changed just as yours probably can't be changed about Kenny. Difference is with s… [view original content]
I've already explained why I get annoyed when you flat out deny things without a proper valid point to back it up.
Ok fair enough. All i can say is i'll try to explain any points to do with something i disagree with. I guess i'm not as thorough as you but in regards to Clem not being able to help Kenny, i think you misunderstood what i meant and i misunderstood what you thought until i read it again. I wasn't saying she can magically fix his aggression and depression but i feel she can help tame the beast if you like. That's what i meant by helping him through it, i never said help him get over it. But overall I think it's best we agree to disagree on anything else to do with this.
Except that has no place being here because it was never brought up in my point. So it's redundant.
i suppose it doesn't but just wanted you to be aware that that is something someone said via the other site.
but there's a good chance (which doesn't mean he will certainly do it) he could use violence against her if she ever failed to keep the baby safe. And I swear to God, this isn't an opinion. Again, common sense.
I just still can't see him doing that though because of the way he feels about Clem and because I don't feel he is psychotic enough to do that. Psycho's don't calm down like he did after killing Jane and he even regrets it after doing what he did. Im sorry if that's not what you want to hear but I just can't see it. As i said before, if he was going to ever hit her then i think he would have done it all the times he only shouted at her.
I'm not even insulting you for your opinion. Do you know what I'd appreciate? For you stop telling me what you think I'm doing because I know what I'm doing.
Until you do that, will I respect you.
Ok then i apologise.
That's fine, but me not doing what you're doing doesn't make me a bitter person for refusing to shrug it off as easily as you do.
Again i said I wasn't calling you a bitter person in particular but im sorry you read it that way.
I'm not saying what you decided to do was wrong, I'm just trying to say that your comparison wasn't a very good one since Clem and you are two different people. (As are Hitler and I, just wanna make that clear lol).
True but does it matter if it's a good comparison or not? If it's not a good comparison to you, well i think it is lol. I tried to play Clem in a good light as most people im sure and i just wanted to compare for the sake of it, not to prove anything as such.
Well as far as I know, we're both trying to be civil. Kenny/Jane discussions don't dictate if I'm civil or not. (Luke discussions get me heated tho lmao)
Lol can't say I've really been involved in a Luke debate. Are you a Luke fan?
You do realize that I actually have brought up good things that Kenny has done, right?
I'm really sorry to sound ignorant or if I'm stupid if i've missed them but could you paste them here? I'm not saying you haven't said anything but there are a lot of posts here and if I'm honest i cannot be bothered scrolling through to find and see what you have said. Thanks would appreciate it.
Just like I've brought up bad things that Jane has done, despite the fact that I'm trying to get people to acknowledge the majority of good she's done?
And if you could paste the things bad about Jane here that would be great too. Sorry to be awkward.
That's how debates work, my friend. We're talking about the bad that Kenny's done and how people seem to gloss over that and excuse it because he's a fan favourite
I do acknowledge that and i hope i'm not sounding like I ignore that. Perhaps there is some bias for him from me but obviously that's because he's one of my fav characters. I try to be less one sided though.
If bringing up the bad shit Kenny has done bothers you in anyway, then Kenny/Jane discussions just aren't your type of challenge then.
I don't actually have a problem with people mentioning all the bad things he's done to be honest because i agree with a lot of the criticism for him because he has done things that I don't agree with but there are also things that i did agree with him on.
I understand that and have nothing against that, by all means I'm not trying to make you hate Kenny. That's not and never will be my intention for anyone I debate against.
No problem. I'm sorry i took it the wrong way in the way i read your posts.
I'm not going to say that Clem saying "it's okay" means she's lying and it's not okay, but I will say that whether she forgives him or not, there's still going to be psychological damage left there because that's how the human brain works. If someone brought up that Sarita died or that Kenny blamed her, she's still going to a negative emotion over it despite Kenny apologizing and her forgiving.
Ok well as long as she didn't take it to heart or it doesn't affect her mentally in the future i guess its something we'd have to see right? Because i've not seen any signs of psychological damage to her for what he said.
Kenny obviously believes in safety in numbers since he's hardly ever alone unless he was separated from them or knew he was going to return to the group (like when he and Luke went to check the transformer, he wasn't actually leaving the group). In the Motor-Inn, he disliked Lilly and Larry a lot, but still stayed because he believed in safety with numbers. (I might be wrong about this, so don't hold me accountable, but I think Kenny may have even brought up the fact that he thinks being multiple people is safer).
I agree, i believe he wanted people round. I also genuinely believe he wanted to help people he was with even though he could be an asshole at times.
I do think he cared for people he was with but didn't always show it. He even said once "i have my problems with Lilly but I don't distrust her" when talking to Lee about supplies going missing, meaning he obviously felt he could be around her and trust her.
He surely didn't care about some people in the group. He wanted to hurry up and leave the observation deck despite Rebecca just giving birth.
You could say he wanted to hurry them up not because he didn't care for them but because he was concerned about their situation and his own and waiting would affect things for them. Although I agree he wasn't wanting to do what they wanted but still his intentions i think were meant for the good of everyone. I disagreed with him because i thought Rebecca would be in a much worse state if they moved straight away but turns out the same scene takes place if you stay or leave the deck straight away anyway.
He didn't even acknowledge Sarah's death.
Yes again it was terrible writing, he didn't even acknowledge Carlos death or Nick's determinant death. The writers should have done so much more.
Whenever the group had other ideas, he told them that he didn't care what they thought and that his idea was the one they should go with. If they even disagreed with him he'd be bitter towards them.
Yes i know and sadly that's just how he is, much like how Larry always was, an asshole to everyone. Trust me, when Kenny got like this i didn't agree completely on his actions but like i said to you, i just like the guy despite that and still wanted him around. His intentions for everyone he felt were for the best even though sometimes they weren't.
The only thing I can explain for that is that Kenny knew Luke was a good guy all long, knew that he was a good leader too, which is why they most likely butted heads. He might have felt threatened as he was the leader of the group Clementine was with, but could've soon realized that Luke's intentions weren't ever bad and he was a good person. I figure it's got something to do with masculinity or something, but this is all just a theory. (but tbh who can hate Luke, I mean come on. he's got puppy eyes for shit sake).
I also think it's got something to do with Arvo running away which made him already mad, and he probably thought that because Arvo did that, Luke got distracted, which sent both Luke and Clem (if Clem breaks the ice in the [Cover Luke] option) and determinately Bonnie down into the water. But because it's Kenny, he was pissed that Clem fell in.
Yeah that's exactly what i think also. He blamed Arvo for Luke's death and i'd say he's partially right because if he hadn't run the ice maybe wouldn't have cracked. The whole scene in my opinion was not only idiotic by the group when they should have walked around but stupid on the writers behalf again in my opinion.
But there's only so little of what good Kenny actually did for the group since he was either focused on Sarita or AJ the rest of the time.
I know this. I was just saying that the things he did do for the group like starting up a truck and delivering Rebecca's baby were for the good of the group and he always tried to help get everyone somewhere safe but again as i said, his actions were not always the best and that's how he is. He doesn't always think things through or listen's to others because what he thinks is best for everyone and it's not always the case.
I wouldn't say "the children's" wellbeing, more like he didn't care for Sarah's. We're gonna have to chalk it up as he didn't care about her.
As it didn't show his feelings towards Sarah i guess we will never know and again i wish they had elaborated on this. Even one line from a character mentioning Sarah to him to see what he said would have been fine. He probably felt some kind of loss for her. He seemed sad about Alvin losing his life for example and they never interacted apart from once when they first met. Only difference was that they included Kenny talking about Alvin and not Sarah.
Well, I can't make you see the other side of it and that's okay, but just know that how she acted after first leaving, it's just more likely (not fact) that she wouldn't ditch Clem.
That's what i'm kind of saying. Maybe she would be more likely to stay and not leave but i guess it's also down to how much we trust her. You'd have to take her word for it when she said she wouldn't leave again.
Agreed. Though I do understand the reason as to why they wanted to leave. Them wanting to leave because of Kenny shouldn't be what makes you dislike them (as it's not what makes me dislike them), but stealing ALL the supplies knowing full well that their's a baby in the group, Arvo shooting Clementine, and Mike and Bonnie running away after it, should be what makes you dislike them.
Oh god no! We're on the same page here don't worry about that. That is exactly why i disliked them because despite their reasons, they fucked over everyone and were prepared to leave Clem and the baby, Jane and Kenny with absolutely nothing. I found it so ridiculous that they would willingly just leave with a guy who not long ago him and his Russian pals held them at gunpoint and threatened to rob them and all they ever did was defend him because Kenny was horrible to him yet I couldn't blame him. Ok, the beating up on him was extreme although it was because i felt he was protecting himself and the group by doing so but was unneeded and is what led to them deciding to leave and we can partially blame him for that but again in my opinion it's bad writing because I don't think people who were threatened at gun point would be willing to trust or go with a guy who did that, even if Arvo didn't actually "hold a gun" at them, he was still involved in the ambush and I never liked or trusted him after that. It annoyed me too because i really liked Mike until that point but I always expected Bonnie was capable of doing something like that. Trust me, i agree 100% here with you. I'm not full on bias towards just Kenny. I care more about Clem than anyone else just so we're clear.
By the way sorry if it takes me a day or so to reply. I work 2 jobs with different shift times each day and typing on my phone is a pain in the ass so takes me even longer lol
No I won't deny that, i think we all know that people do drastic things. But why would it bother you if i did deny it when you say "im hopin… moreg you won't"? Why should it bother you? At least it sounds like you are annoyed by this.
I've already explained why I get annoyed when you flat out deny things without a proper valid point to back it up.
There was someone on youtube saying vile things about anyone who liked Kenny and brought up the "slap" issue and said he would attack Clementine like he did Jane just because he said "i should slap you"
Except that has no place being here because it was never brought up in my point. So it's redundant.
Oh thanks that's a really nice thing to say. I deny shit just because i disagree with you?
No, you deny shit, while disagreeing, and don't bring up any valid points to back up why you disagree. Sometimes you just say "it's an opinion" and go onto the next thing I say.
… [view original content]
but in regards to Clem not being able to help Kenny, i think you misunderstood what i meant and i misunderstood what you thought until i read it again.
That's fair enough, it's okay.
True but does it matter if it's a good comparison or not?
It's the only way to get your point across without getting any "if", "and"'s, or "but"'s.
Lol can't say I've really been involved in a Luke debate. Are you a Luke fan?
Omg, where have you been for the past 2 and a half years? I feel like I've gotten to the point of being a Luke fan where I can literally sniff out the name anywhere on the forum lol. I'm a die-hard Luke fan.
I'm really sorry to sound ignorant or if I'm stupid if i've missed them but could you paste them here?
Sure can.
"I actually don't hate Kenny. I think his character is very well written and in depth. From a personality stand point, he really does shit me up the wall. But I know his intentions are best, but that doesn't make what he does best."
"Kenny, while "letting out anger" by shouting at Clem, knew it wasn't her fault. "
Although this next one might not seem like I'm backing Kenny up, but I do think that what he done was a mature thing and clearly the safer option for his family, therefore Kenny made a good choice. "In the Motor-Inn, he disliked Lilly and Larry a lot, but still stayed because he believed in safety with numbers." Safety being for him and his family.
"And it isn't in character for Kenny to not deliver the baby anyway, he just isn't that type of guy."
"My opinion of Kenny isn't a negative one. I acknowledge that he's dangerous, aggressive, irrational, and not fit to take care of a kid because of the trauma he's gone through in the outbreak. His behaviour is warped because of the shit that's happened to him, which brings me back to my point of Clem not being able to fix him. But I still like him because of his intentions being good."
Don't get me wrong, I am arguing that Kenny does a lot of bad things (despite what a lot of people believe) which is why I bring them up more than the good things he's done, and from your standpoint, looks like I'm attacking him and not bringing up that Kenny's a good person. Which isn't what you may think it seems. I know full and well that Kenny is trying to be the good person he once was, but we also need to take into account that his mental health (and I also think the eye injury as Carlos suggested that there could have been some brain damage) has made that hard for him.
And if you could paste the things bad about Jane here that would be great too.
Before I do, I just need to remind/clarify for you that I'm arguing that Jane has done a lot of good things despite popular belief. So of course, there won't be that much bad points about Jane.
Ah, and I just realized, that it's my original post below that states the bad that Jane's done (which of course has gotten me muddled up since our debate is so incredibly long, so I hope you understand), so just in case you haven't seen them (or have), I'll copy and paste those here.
"It's just the way she went about it, what with hiding the baby and all, made the plan fail (depending on whether you shot Kenny or not)"
"I know what she did was shitty, hence why I said "the execution was the messy part." "
"Just to clarify, I'm not justifying, just trying to give my best explanation of Jane's possible reasoning behind not confessing." What I meant here was that I wasn't justifying Jane's lies about the baby.
Again, there's not gonna be much points about Jane being bad because that's not what I'm arguing for.
I do acknowledge that and i hope i'm not sounding like I ignore that. Perhaps there is some bias for him from me but obviously that's because he's one of my fav characters. I try to be less one sided though.
That's okay, like you previously explained before, you sympathize with Kenny because you got to go through what he went through with him. But you said you're trying, and that's good enough. It's understandable, just like how there'd obviously be a bias from me if this discussion was about Luke and not Jane. But I noticed that the few that don't like Luke have seemed to read his character completely wrong and dislike him for all the wrong/irrational reasons. That's a whole different can of worms, though. :P
Ok well as long as she didn't take it to heart or it doesn't affect her mentally in the future i guess its something we'd have to see right? Because i've not seen any signs of psychological damage to her for what he said.
Well, realistically, there would have been some psychological damage. But since this game isn't so realistic, given all the unrealistic tendencies it shows, then yes, we DO have to wait and see. And if we do see Clem in Season 3 as an older girl, then like the saying goes, "time heals all wounds" (or maybe even "with time comes grace"), then she might have been able to overcome any negative feeling towards those events.
I also genuinely believe he wanted to help people he was with even though he could be an asshole at times. I do think he cared for people he was with but didn't always show it.
A majority of the carelessness he shows towards the group members has been after he was injured by Carver and lost Sarita, so those factors could play a huge part in that. I don't think Kenny wanted anyone to die at all, despite his lack of showing that.
You could say he wanted to hurry them up not because he didn't care for them but because he was concerned about their situation and his own and waiting would affect things for them.
I could say that, but since he was constantly bringing up that they needed to go to Wellington, I think it's because he just wanted to hurry and get there while not worrying about the others.
He blamed Arvo for Luke's death and i'd say he's partially right because if he hadn't run the ice maybe wouldn't have cracked.
You'd think that Luke got nervous because Arvo ran and took a wrong step (I thought that at first, too), but if you remember, Clementine stepped on thin ice and made a crack. But because she was light enough, she didn't fall through. Luke was walking directly behind her. He stepped on the thin ice, which started to crack even more since he's a grown man, and eventually sent him through.
The whole scene in my opinion was not only idiotic by the group when they should have walked around but stupid on the writers behalf again in my opinion.
I couldn't agree with you more.
He probably felt some kind of loss for her. He seemed sad about Alvin losing his life for example and they never interacted apart from once when they first met. Only difference was that they included Kenny talking about Alvin and not Sarah.
In Alvin's case, Kenny was talking about AJ, which is why he mentioned him. There's nothing left of Sarah that was brought up after her deaths.
Ok, the beating up on him was extreme although it was because i felt he was protecting himself and the group by doing so but was unneeded
Definitely unneeded, but I think it's because he got offended that Arvo said "fuck you" to him. Which Kenny provoked by shoving him and being racist. I don't think it had anything to do with protection, as Arvo was tied up and unarmed. He couldn't do anything unless someone helped him.
in my opinion it's bad writing because I don't think people who were threatened at gun point would be willing to trust or go with a guy who did that
Well, I don't think it's exactly bad writing. Arvo was only still a kid (around 17 I think), they felt bad for him and could've theorized that his group wanted to rob Clem's group and not Arvo himself. Also, Arvo never had a gun. He never shot anyone, and in my opinion, I don't think he would've tried to shoot anyone at the time. But of course, times changed and he shot Clem out of fear WHICH IS NOT JUSTIFIABLE. Though explainable.
he was still involved in the ambush and I never liked or trusted him after that
That's fair enough. I didn't like or trust him either, but I did have sympathy for him and didn't want him to get hurt.
It annoyed me too because i really liked Mike until that point but I always expected Bonnie was capable of doing something like that.
I always thought it was sooo out of character for Bonnie to do that. She showed some type of caretaker/motherly instincts after the group was captured by Carver, given that she felt sorry for her actions. All that character growth of her redeeming herself was just thrown away and ruined once they made her run away. I don't think Bonnie would have took all the supplies knowing full and well that she was leaving a baby and child behind. Shit, I wouldn't even think that Bonnie would've left in the first place, at least not without Clementine. Mike, yeah, because it was shown quite a bit that he didn't like the way Kenny handled things and felt sorry for Arvo. I feel like they soiled Bonnie's character and it would've been better if she had just been killed off with or instead of Luke.
By the way sorry if it takes me a day or so to reply. I work 2 jobs with different shift times each day and typing on my phone is a pain in the ass so takes me even longer lol
That's okay. I'm quite busy with school as well, and by the time you reply, I'm already home with a few hours before going to bed. It also takes me an hour and a half, sometimes even 2 hours to reply.
I've already explained why I get annoyed when you flat out deny things without a proper valid point to back it up.
Ok fair enough. A… morell i can say is i'll try to explain any points to do with something i disagree with. I guess i'm not as thorough as you but in regards to Clem not being able to help Kenny, i think you misunderstood what i meant and i misunderstood what you thought until i read it again. I wasn't saying she can magically fix his aggression and depression but i feel she can help tame the beast if you like. That's what i meant by helping him through it, i never said help him get over it. But overall I think it's best we agree to disagree on anything else to do with this.
Except that has no place being here because it was never brought up in my point. So it's redundant.
i suppose it doesn't but just wanted you to be aware that that is something someone said via the other site.
but there's a good chance (w… [view original content]
Omg, where have you been for the past 2 and a half years? I feel like I've gotten to the point of being a Luke fan where I can literally sniff out the name anywhere on the forum lol. I'm a die-hard Luke fan.
Lol i guess i've not really paid attention to posts about Luke so I haven't noticed haha. Well good to know, Luke's ok in my book, i had no beef with him.
Don't get me wrong, I am arguing that Kenny does a lot of bad things (despite what a lot of people believe) which is why I bring them up more than the good things he's done, and from your standpoint, looks like I'm attacking him and not bringing up that Kenny's a good person. Which isn't what you may think it seems. I know full and well that Kenny is trying to be the good person he once was, but we also need to take into account that his mental health (and I also think the eye injury as Carlos suggested that there could have been some brain damage) has made that hard for him.
Thanks for posting them but i was kind of meaning the good things he's done rather than his good intentions intentions such as when he saved Lee's life at the drugstore after Larry left him to die or saving Christa or mercy killing Ben before what we thought at the time to be sacrificing himself. Or taking the blame for the missing radio so that Clementine wouldn't get beaten down by Carver. But thanks for posting them again. Appreciate it.
Before I do, I just need to remind/clarify for you that I'm arguing that Jane has done a lot of good things despite popular belief. So of course, there won't be that much bad points about Jane.
Ah, and I just realized, that it's my original post below that states the bad that Jane's done (which of course has gotten me muddled up since our debate is so incredibly long, so I hope you understand), so just in case you haven't seen them (or have), I'll copy and paste those here.
"It's just the way she went about it, what with hiding the baby and all, made the plan fail (depending on whether you shot Kenny or not)"
"I know what she did was shitty, hence why I said "the execution was the messy part." "
"Just to clarify, I'm not justifying, just trying to give my best explanation of Jane's possible reasoning behind not confessing." What I meant here was that I wasn't justifying Jane's lies about the baby.
I'll just quickly state what things I didn't like Jane for and what things i did like her for:
The bad things in my opinion:
Probably not really a big deal but thought i'd say again anyway. Referring to AJ as an "it" just felt disrespectful however I realise it's because she's not seemingly great around kids so i'm gonna let that go although it just annoyed me at the time.
Despite her reasons were in my opinion good ones which i did agree with her for, when she asked Rebecca what she was going to do with the baby when it was born, this upset Rebecca because i think Rebecca felt she was implying that she should get rid of it due to the problems it would cause. I just felt it was not a nice thing to say even if her reasons were realistic. Not saying she is a monster for saying it but just very inappropriate.
Although she had her reasons because of her past experience with her sister, I always highly disagreed on her insistence of leaving Sarah behind in the trailer just because she felt she couldn't be helped or you can't force her. While i understand why she said this, i still felt like that the suggesting to leave her to die in such a manner was wrong.
Again later after the deck collapses, she tells Clem and i think Luke to pull her up instead of trying to save Sarah. Even if you ask her to save her or pull her up, Clem has the option to say something like "don't pretend you're sorry, you didn't even want to try" but this is obviously determinant. I realise that she goes down to save her if you stay silent but how i see it was that she didn't really want to put her life at risk to save her. It annoyed me.
Although not really a bad point but thought i'd throw it in here. Having sex with Luke at the worst possible time. It just felt so inappropriate and due to Luke who should have been on watch for walkers, it put the whole group in danger. I blame Jane and not Luke for that because he said "she made me an offer and i took it". I totally get why they did, i mean i certainly wouldn't turn down sex haha but it was such a stupid time to do it and i just did not like Jane for asking for it at that dangerous time.
Leaving the group and would have left without telling anyone if Clem hadn't seen her. Again she had her reasons but it felt like a betrayal when they needed every able body they could get especially with the baby just being born and all.
Again a minor thing although wanted to point it out, offering Clem to drink the alcohol knowing she's only a kid and shouldn't be suggesting she should. But then Bonnie does the same offering a cigarette and Nick also offers Clem alcohol. it's not really important but just annoyed me at the time (and so did Bonnie and Nick).
After Luke falls in the ice and Clem sees him trapped, all you hear from Jane is "it's too late, there's nothing more you can do" and i could be wrong here but i think she even says "you have to leave him" but i could be wrong on that. Point is i did not like how she just seemingly gave up on Luke, a guy she just had sex with and maybe even had feelings for. It's a situation i felt that there was a chance to save him. Obviously if he was hanging off the edge of a building and she couldn't reach him without falling off herself to her death then yes i'd agree. However it was more to do with the whole attitude behind it. I realise she said it because Clem was at risk but what about Luke?
Then obviously the whole hiding AJ to prove a point thing which I won't go into again but despite her intentions i hated it and she shouldn't have done it especially in that way.
The good things:
She helped Clem and Rebecca get through the herd when it seemed like they were struggling to get through.
She taught Clem easier ways to kill walkers and gave her a more reliable weapon. She later also was kind and gave her a file was it? Which i think was meant as a memento of her that as seen in Episode 5 was useful to start a fire.
I appreciated the fact that despite leaving she did come back and saved Kenny's life as well as the rest of the group.
She actually wanted to help Kenny at the start of episode 5 in getting Clem to i guess stabilise him is the best word as she told Clem what we already know that she's the only one he really trusts. I appreciated that she showed concern for a member of the group.
She saved Clem after falling in the ice and started a fire with Mike to keep her and determinant Bonnie warm.
She gave Clem advice about Kenny and although i disagreed with what she said, I appreciated the concern or suggestion.
There may be more good and bad things but i can't think of any more right now.
Well, realistically, there would have been some psychological damage. But since this game isn't so realistic, given all the unrealistic tendencies it shows, then yes, we DO have to wait and see. And if we do see Clem in Season 3 as an older girl, then like the saying goes, "time heals all wounds" (or maybe even "with time comes grace"), then she might have been able to overcome any negative feeling towards those events.
I would be surprised if this was ever brought up as a factor in season 3 to be honest but yes we have to see if she was affected by it but she may have already shown signs of psychological damage from his reaction but I didn't notice anything at the time or after the convo but anyway...
A majority of the carelessness he shows towards the group members has been after he was injured by Carver and lost Sarita, so those factors could play a huge part in that. I don't think Kenny wanted anyone to die at all, despite his lack of showing that.
Yeah I agree with you. That's why i get annoyed with a lot of anti Kenny fans sometimes because some just criticise him without looking at the other side of things such as, as you said, possible brain damage followed by the stricken grief of losing Sarita shortly afterwards that affected his mind badly. He's not that type of guy generally, and to quote something he actually said was "i can be a real shit sometimes" and it's true, he can be an ass speaking to people sometimes when they don't agree with him on something he feels is the right or best thing to do even though it sometimes isn't. So the possible brain damage would have made him more aggressive and irrational. I just feel some people ignore this and always focus on all the bad and not the good. Thanks again for your input.
I could say that, but since he was constantly bringing up that they needed to go to Wellington, I think it's because he just wanted to hurry and get there while not worrying about the others.
Well if you choose to stay a few days for Rebecca to recover before leaving the observation deck, he does stay with them and if he wasn't concerned about the others would he have took off? He was pointing out the town that they could see in the distance as a stopping point but i was so annoyed when the writers just either forgot or decided not to include it in the following episode.
You'd think that Luke got nervous because Arvo ran and took a wrong step (I thought that at first, too), but if you remember, Clementine stepped on thin ice and made a crack. But because she was light enough, she didn't fall through. Luke was walking directly behind her. He stepped on the thin ice, which started to crack even more since he's a grown man, and eventually sent him through.
Yes again it goes back to what i said that it was stupid all of them walking across the ice in the first place. In a way all of them were to blame. They should have either gone one at a time or walked around the lake.
In Alvin's case, Kenny was talking about AJ, which is why he mentioned him. There's nothing left of Sarah that was brought up after her deaths.
Yes i know. They could have had a scene (maybe the same scene when Clem was changing his bandage) where Kenny could say he wish he'd thanked Carlos for tending to his eye and patching him up and then could have mentioned his thoughts on Sarah or at least something but again they didn't so i just class it as an oversight by the writers or that they just didn't think to mention it or felt it was important enough.
Well, I don't think it's exactly bad writing. Arvo was only still a kid (around 17 I think), they felt bad for him and could've theorized that his group wanted to rob Clem's group and not Arvo himself. Also, Arvo never had a gun. He never shot anyone, and in my opinion, I don't think he would've tried to shoot anyone at the time. But of course, times changed and he shot Clem out of fear WHICH IS NOT JUSTIFIABLE.Though explainable.
I guess that all comes down to how we perceive the character and situations but ok.
That's fair enough. I didn't like or trust him either, but I did have sympathy for him and didn't want him to get hurt.
I admit that i did feel for him for losing his sister the way he did but then she was involved in the ambush and she knew the risks of doing so and Arvo did as well. It's one of those situations where if those people still had some humanity they would have come to a deal of sorts and no one would have died but then it wouldn't be very exciting story-wise then would it lol.
I always thought it was sooo out of character for Bonnie to do that. She showed some type of caretaker/motherly instincts after the group was captured by Carver, given that she felt sorry for her actions.
I guess after she lied when she first came to the lodge saying "i have a family and a little girl like you" and Walter gave her the supplies and then revealed to be part of Carver's crew. Yeah she apologised and I don't think shes all that bad and again i see what you mean but she was capable of deceiving them and in 400 Days you can lie as her character to Leland but yes i see what you are saying. I was always shifty of her character from that moment though and the way she treated me after Luke's death after doing what "he" wanted me to do further pissed me off. I can forgive her for that but after her stunt with Mike and Arvo just did it for me, especially telling a concerned Mike after Clem was shot to "just leave her"
All that character growth of her redeeming herself was just thrown away and ruined once they made her run away.
Yes agreed.
I don't think Bonnie would have took all the supplies knowing full and well that she was leaving a baby and child behind. Shit, I wouldn't even think that Bonnie would've left in the first place, at least not without Clementine. Mike, yeah, because it was shown quite a bit that he didn't like the way Kenny handled things and felt sorry for Arvo. I feel like they soiled Bonnie's character and it would've been better if she had just been killed off with or instead of Luke.
but in regards to Clem not being able to help Kenny, i think you misunderstood what i meant and i misunderstood what you thought until i rea… mored it again.
That's fair enough, it's okay.
True but does it matter if it's a good comparison or not?
It's the only way to get your point across without getting any "if", "and"'s, or "but"'s.
Lol can't say I've really been involved in a Luke debate. Are you a Luke fan?
Omg, where have you been for the past 2 and a half years? I feel like I've gotten to the point of being a Luke fan where I can literally sniff out the name anywhere on the forum lol. I'm a die-hard Luke fan.
I'm really sorry to sound ignorant or if I'm stupid if i've missed them but could you paste them here?
Sure can.
* "I actually don't hate Kenny. I think his character is very well written and in depth. From a personality stand point, he really does shit me up the wall. But I know his… [view original content]
If Jane hadn't done what she did then nothing would have happened and no one would have died. But because it did happen, both of them were in the wrong and we all know that
If Jane hadn't done what she did then nothing would have happened and no one would have died.
That is incorrect. Luke and Bonnie still would have drowned, Mike and Arvo still would have left because of Kenny's idiocy, and Rebecca still would have died from the lack of medicine.
But because it did happen, both of them were in the wrong
They were both in the wrong, yes. But Kenny was Clem's worst chance for survival by far when you think about it. In my opinion, Jane was the one who had the best POV.
She was more in the right??
If Jane hadn't done what she did then nothing would have happened and no one would have died. But because it did happen, both of them were in the wrong and we all know that
Jane: Look, i know you're close to him, but... Kenny would never let him go.
Then they're interrupted by 2 gunshots and walkers.
I have no idea what made jane chose that executing the plan was a better idea than talking to Clem. This also shows that jane had about 5 minutes to think about the whole plan which may explain why it was so shitty and was executed so badly.
I disagree with the plan being good, it was stupid from beginning to end and only ended up needlessly provoking a highly stubborn and mental… morely unstable man into trying to kill you over the baby having died whilst under your care.
All Jane had to do was ask Clementine if she wanted to go to Wellington, if she felt safe around Kenny or not, if she trusts Jane to continue watching out for her, and if she wants to turn back to Howe's and stay safe inside the abandoned community.
Rebecca still would have died from the lack of medicine.
It's kind of funny that Arvo's duffel bag full of medicine, medical supplies and bottled water determinantly transforms into a single jar of oxycotin, right? And that jar then transforms into a single pill, because, logic!
If Jane hadn't done what she did then nothing would have happened and no one would have died.
That is incorrect. Luke and Bonnie sti… morell would have drowned, Mike and Arvo still would have left because of Kenny's idiocy, and Rebecca still would have died from the lack of medicine.
But because it did happen, both of them were in the wrong
They were both in the wrong, yes. But Kenny was Clem's worst chance for survival by far when you think about it. In my opinion, Jane was the one who had the best POV.
Rebecca still would have died from the lack of medicine.
It's kind of funny that Arvo's duffel bag full of medicine, medical supplie… mores and bottled water determinantly transforms into a single jar of oxycotin, right? And that jar then transforms into a single pill, because, logic!
That is incorrect. Luke and Bonnie still would have drowned, Mike and Arvo still would have left because of Kenny's idiocy, and Rebecca still would have died from the lack of medicine.
Um? I think you misunderstood me? The topic is whether Jane was in the right or not about what she did in making Kenny mad and then you mentioned past events? My "no one would have died" comment wasn't referring to what happened previously but rather what happened in the final scene between Kenny and Jane.
They were both in the wrong, yes. But Kenny was Clem's worst chance for survival by far when you think about it. In my opinion, Jane was the one who had the best POV.
Yes but that's just it, it's "your opinion" which is fine but not everyone sees it like that but i'm sure you knew that already lol
If Jane hadn't done what she did then nothing would have happened and no one would have died.
That is incorrect. Luke and Bonnie sti… morell would have drowned, Mike and Arvo still would have left because of Kenny's idiocy, and Rebecca still would have died from the lack of medicine.
But because it did happen, both of them were in the wrong
They were both in the wrong, yes. But Kenny was Clem's worst chance for survival by far when you think about it. In my opinion, Jane was the one who had the best POV.
Looking at your explanation (which wasn't provided in the original comment), it seems I did misunderstand. I see what you mean now. Yes, the final scene wouldn't have happened. But Kenny was going to do something stupid anyway, see Season One for example.
Yes but that's just it, it's "your opinion" which is fine but not everyone sees it like that but i'm sure you knew that already lol
Yep. I completely respect your opinion, although I don't entirely agree with it.
That is incorrect. Luke and Bonnie still would have drowned, Mike and Arvo still would have left because of Kenny's idiocy, and Rebecca stil… morel would have died from the lack of medicine.
Um? I think you misunderstood me? The topic is whether Jane was in the right or not about what she did in making Kenny mad and then you mentioned past events? My "no one would have died" comment wasn't referring to what happened previously but rather what happened in the final scene between Kenny and Jane.
They were both in the wrong, yes. But Kenny was Clem's worst chance for survival by far when you think about it. In my opinion, Jane was the one who had the best POV.
Yes but that's just it, it's "your opinion" which is fine but not everyone sees it like that but i'm sure you knew that already lol
Given the fact Kenny had already lost Duck and it had already messed him up from the get go, Jane doing what she did was out of line and made the situation worse. I mean you already lost your son don't you think seeing another child possibly die would screw up your mind even more?
Given the fact Kenny had already lost Duck and it had already messed him up from the get go, Jane doing what she did was out of line and made the situation worse. I mean you already lost your son don't you think seeing another child possibly die would screw up your mind even more?
Exactly. It was just unneeded and there could have been other ways to get her point across but even then she didn't have to. You try and help a person who is suffering in the way he was, not drive him further into madness! Even if he couldn't be helped.
Given the fact Kenny had already lost Duck and it had already messed him up from the get go, Jane doing what she did was out of line and mad… moree the situation worse. I mean you already lost your son don't you think seeing another child possibly die would screw up your mind even more?
Honestly I see Jane's plan like this: "Kenny's on the edge. I'm going to push him over the edge to prove the point he's gone over the edge!" Except he wasn't over the edge until you pushed him! It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. (#TeamKenny4Lyfe #DoItForTheStache)
Let's see, unnecessarily provoke a grieving man and either get yourself killed or get a little girl to kill her friend all to prove some weird point....
You mean provoking a man that through two entire series has shown himself to be a jackass who was so pleasant to be around his wife chose to take her own life. A man who was so foolish as to aggravate a situation and get people killed at the ski lodge. A man who thought it was a good idea to beat the crap out of Arvo and then act indignant when Arvo strikes back. Oh and Arvo Potter looked what 98 pounds soaking wet...sure let's keep abusing him. The shit he put Lee through...do as I say or you are a traitor...like kill Larry. No Kenny was a jerk...hell I am sure as a walker he is a jerk to other walkers.
You may want to take an ethics class if you think any of that (most of it determinant based on what Clem does anyway) justifies provoking a deadly situation and putting a baby in danger.
You mean provoking a man that through two entire series has shown himself to be a jackass who was so pleasant to be around his wife chose to… more take her own life. A man who was so foolish as to aggravate a situation and get people killed at the ski lodge. A man who thought it was a good idea to beat the crap out of Arvo and then act indignant when Arvo strikes back. Oh and Arvo Potter looked what 98 pounds soaking wet...sure let's keep abusing him. The shit he put Lee through...do as I say or you are a traitor...like kill Larry. No Kenny was a jerk...hell I am sure as a walker he is a jerk to other walkers.
Um? I think you misunderstood me?
Looking at your explanation (which wasn't provided in the original comment), it seems I did misund… moreerstand. I see what you mean now. Yes, the final scene wouldn't have happened. But Kenny was going to do something stupid anyway, see Season One for example.
Yes but that's just it, it's "your opinion" which is fine but not everyone sees it like that but i'm sure you knew that already lol
Yep. I completely respect your opinion, although I don't entirely agree with it.
I do help grieving people, but only those I care about. Jane absolutely hated Kenny and for good reason. She has no reason to help him and even if she tried he wouldn't accept it. Kenny is an old stubborn piece of shit, but deep inside of him there is a good man. I'm just not waiting another season of his bullshit to find it.
You help grieving people. You don't provoke them.
When friend's family members have died i know i haven't gone out to try to prove some arcane point to them.
Comments
He sure did seem happy when he was on the verge of dying by the hands of Carver, "but then I woke up again."
BetterToSleep
That is down to bad writing as far as im concerned
Well, Jane was technically left alone in several occasions with the baby, and so far she did nothing to harm the baby or showed any signs of willing intent to kill him. It could have been so easy for an extreme survivalist to just discard the baby during the separation in the blizzard, and then lie to Clementine and Kenny about how the walkers snatched the baby off of her arms while she was trying to get away from them.
So yes, I do believe that Jane would be capable and willing to look after a baby, especially on her own.
Well to you maybe but not to me, i can have this opinion, you can say i have no common sense, I won't care really.
Yes i said that both were completely different and maybe she wouldn't be able to help him, this we'll never know but i think she could ok??
Nice twist? I wasn't intending on twisting anything, i genuinely thought otherwise, anyway i disagree obviously.
Doesn't change the fact that she didn't have to do such a thing to prove the point, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
Yes i know it is not right, i never said it was did i? But im saying that was his actions behind it and it was definitely not a meaningful threat "im going to slap you bitch" kind of attitude. Parents smack their kids when they say something naughty and what not. It's not his kid no and it's not right to treat her like she is but my point is, it was not a a threat in the way you are thinking, just words as far as im concerned nd this is something i will never change my view on. To honestly say that just because he said "i should slap you" makes some people think that he would attack her like he did Jane in my opinion is ridiculous. Call me what you like for that (i'm expecting a backlash?) I don't care but just no way, i will never accept that.
And yet the damn choice is determinant anyway and even if it was a choice chosen, she doesn't show any "feeling unsafe" actions and I don't think she took that as a serious threat what he said anyway. I'm pretty certain she knows herself who and what Kenny is to make her own mind up. As i said i'm not being swayed by this.
I don't think it is? Fact is he could have but didn't, yet he did to other people but not her so that's another reason i believe he would never harm her physically.
Again that's a good enough reason for me that he could have but didn't and that's al that matters to me. He didn't.
i agree that it doesn't and I didn't like the way he treated her this scene (ooh shocker right? But believe it or not I don't agree on everything he did) but i'm not a bitter person who constantly holds grudges on peoples actions and tear them apart even if they sometimes deserve it.
Think for a moment, whenever Kenny has got angry he says horrible things, he calms down and you see the other side of him. I have met many people like this before who say things when angry but don't really mean it. It doesn't make it right what he said and his treatment of her and others but he just lost his second love, he felt he had to blame someone which was wrong but that is grief and everyone deals with it differently, some better than others. An apology makes it fine with me. Some people have no heart though but that's ok. You all have your reasons to hold grudges, it doesn't bother me.
Of course, i expected as much lol but that's fine.
This is something that yes could be the reason as well, it's all speculation. He probably was reminded of sitting at the table with his family one night and mistakenly called her Duck. In the car scene at the end when arguing with Jane he says "i told you not to talk about my family" just after Jane said something about Clementine which to me indicates he thinks of her as family.
You know you don't have to reply saying things in such a sarcastic way. At least it seems like that to me. I'm not trying to be horrible to you am i?
i agree but this in my opinion was down to bad writing or lack of episode time to show his relationship with other characters. To be fair he didn't know Sarah nor get the chance to get to know her.
Again its determinant and that is your opinion that it could have been unsafe but given the way they were set up and willing to give out supplies, i felt it was safe. But again Kenny still gets put down (you must really hate him?) even though his actions in this scene shows he's trying to do the right thing yet he still gets negativity but hey fine! It doesn't really matter though because i loved this scene and felt what he did for the kids made up for everything bad he did. Sorry if that opinion offends you.
Was that mentioned somewhere? Personally i think it's because of (even though not much interaction in S1) everything they went through together with Lee and the fact that he knows her enough to trust her over other people.
Yeah she came back i'll give her that and she's a damn sight better than Mike Bonnie and Arvo. And the former two proved they didn't give a shit about Clem and only for themselves.
My point is she did it once so she could easily do it again. She had a change of heart and came back and said she wouldn't leave her again. We would have to see if she'd stay true to those words and hopefully she would.
Sorry, off to work. Thanks again, hope i don't get into a heated argument over all this.
Why did Kenny say "she didn't want the baby around, she made that clear"? How do we know it wasn't mentioned? It is unclear though i do agree.
I'm not saying nor have ever said she was a cold blooded killer. I'm just saying that she gives me the impression that in certain situations she would leave people behind as in the reasons i've stated in the past. She's not an evil person, i just don't like her very much. Again sorry if that bothers you but not everyone can be liked
Yes but Clementine though not with her for a brief moment was still in her life. I was referring to if Jane had not met her or if she found a baby abandoned by chance. That's what i meant by if Clem wasn't around.
I think she would be capable to look after him too but willing? No not on her own, sorry just what i think.
Not my problem, then.
Except I gave clear reasoning as to why she wouldn't be able to. You can deny it all you want, that doesn't change the fact that Clementine isn't a genius.
Again, blatantly denying isn't going to get your very far.
And Kenny didn't have to yell at Clementine to release anger, she could have done something else or nothing at all!
Matter of fact is, people do drastic things when they fell like they or the life of someone elses (in this case, Clementine) is in danger. I'm hoping you won't deny that obvious statement.
It doesn't matter how he meant it, he still said that he should slap her which is ultimately wrong for many reasons that I already explained.
Again, I've already explained how "just words" can make Clementine feel unsafe with Kenny simply for voicing her opinion.
Wtf? I don't get how a slap is equivalent to how he attacked Jane, considering I never even said that. It wasn't even implied, and literally no one thinks that. So it's better if you try to at least not pull these claims out of a hat and just chuck it in for the sake of it.
You really do deny a lot of shit tbh. If you're just going to do that and not bring up any valid points, then maybe you should stop replying?
How does that even change the fact that Kenny's character made the conscious decision to say something like that? Your point is invalid.
It is watering it down. And worst case scenario, Clem accidentally gets the baby killed like Kenny believed Jane did, who's to say he wouldn't hurt her for that? He charged at Jane without even knowing all the facts, there's a good chance he'd hurt her somehow.
So I'm a bitter person because I acknowledge "sorry" can't fix something as abusive as what Kenny said? If I threw a plate on the ground and it shattered into pieces, do you think if I say "sorry" that it'll be as if the pieces didn't break? Or are you just going to deny that the pieces even broke, or say that the pieces magically got fixed?
I'm not holding a grudge, of course he regrets what he did, but that still doesn't change the fact that he did it. Clementine's only a child, still. No matter what you say (or deny, I should say), Clem is going to feel shit about something that for the rest of her life because someone she trusted fucked her over. And I don't think that "sorry" can fix what she's dealt with because of it.
I don't think that was about Clementine, I'm pretty sure he was still pissed about her talking about his actual family + Sarita (that he'd obviously consider family since they were partners).
Sarcasm is part of me, it's actually really hard to eradicate, which is why I don't. But me saying "I'm sorry, what?" shouldn't really get on your nerves since that's fairly minor. But if it does, then I apologize, but I hope you don't take offense to it or anything else. And no you're not trying to be horrible to me, I know that.
Okay, so you can't claim that he "cares about the children's wellbeing" since that wasn't the case. And yes, I know the bad writing that Season 2 came with makes characters very hard to justify/explain, but I really do hope you try your hardest to justify/explain them.
Again, that's invalid.
How is that an opinion? You can't call everything I say an opinion, you know that right? It's pretty clear that Kenny knew only rumors of what Wellington was like, and doesn't know anything for a fact about how children (or even adults) are treated. Sending them into Wellington was not only risky, but could be extremely unsafe. And that's a fact.
Fair enough. As I said, " could be extemely unsafe ", not certainly. Just want to make that clear just in case.
I actually don't hate Kenny. I think his character is very well written and in depth. From a personality stand point, he really does shit me up the wall. But I know his intentions are best, but that doesn't make what he does best.
I'm not denying that his actions were meant with the best intention, I'm saying that it was risky and contradictory to really trying to keep them safe. Please don't get the wrong idea.
That's completely fine that you love this scene. I'm not trying to debate your opinions, just your arguments for Kenny's defense. What you like and don't like is fine by me, I'm not a person to get "offended" by any of these discussions (unless you're shit talking a character that doesn't deserve it OR LUKE
). So honestly, your opinion isn't offensive at all (don't see why it should be anyway). I agree, the scene was really nice and touching.
And MY point is that she's come a long way from that and proved that she wouldn't abandon Clem again by not ditching her to go with Mike and Bonnie.
You gave reasoning on what you "think" she wouldn't be able to. Maybe your right but maybe your wrong. There is no right or wrong and that's that. You don't have to be horrible saying "you can deny all you want" or "blatently denying won't get you very far"? I mean why be like that? If i've annoyed you then I'm sorry but i've not said or intended to insult you over your opinions
When did Kenny say that? And he could've meant by how Jane showed how anxious she was near the baby in general.
Well I guess it's just got something to do with how you read the character then, because she really doesn't strike me as a person that would have the heart to leave the baby behind in any situation.
I'm not saying you have to like her, I'm just trying to tell you that what you think of her can be changed because of her other (good) actions that seem so go very unnoticed in this community. I just feel like Jane's had a very big disadvantage from as soon as she started feuding with Kenny because of how popular he was. Trust me, I didn't like Jane either in the beginning, but I really did analyse her character and her lines in multiple playthroughs and I felt a change of heart because I could really see that she never meant to hurt those who didn't hurt her first. She's just a person too afraid to die, which is why she decides to act so coldly.
So even if after all these points I've brought up and clarification, that you still don't like Jane, then that's totally fine. I'm not bothered or offended, that's your choice and it's not my right to have any kind of say over that. Like you said, not everyone can be liked.
You're not being very grounded, is all. I mean, I've told you that Clem's only a little girl, she's not a therapist. She can't help Kenny in the way that you think she can, and I'm talking about the death of his family, his mental breakdown(s), his aggression, his inability to be accepting of other peoples ideas, etc. She's not educated enough for that, and you saying "maybe you're right maybe you're wrong" is denying that that is a fact. I'm talking from a psychological standpoint here, I'm not trying to be horrible, I'm trying to get it through to you that Clementine can only do so much, but she's merely a band-aid to Kenny's mental state. She can't fix him.
Kenny wanting to die doesn't mean he was suicidal. Suicide is the act of intentionally causing one own' s death. There's a difference.
You're right, there is. My bad.
No I won't deny that, i think we all know that people do drastic things. But why would it bother you if i did deny it when you say "im hoping you won't"? Why should it bother you? At least it sounds like you are annoyed by this.
I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. I have no reason to lie about this. There was someone on youtube saying vile things about anyone who liked Kenny and brought up the "slap" issue and said he would attack Clementine like he did Jane just because he said "i should slap you" which i do not agree with at all because i do not think he would attack her like he did Jane. I'd find it to post if there weren't thousands of comments on the video. I'm not chucking in anything for the sake of it! It just sounds to me now especially your last line that you are telling me what i can and can't say about this scene and making it sound like this is a fact when it's not.
Oh thanks that's a really nice thing to say. I deny shit just because i disagree with you? And you think you are right about everything do you? I don't go round saying this person and that person talk shit or deny this and that. Nice, thank you again. If i want to state something on here be it important to you or not then i will. I have the freedom to do so and im sorry if you don't like that or what i say isn't important. Again if i have taken this the wrong way i also apologise but that comment offended me because i feel i don't deny a lot of shit as you say but again thanks a lot. I see how it is from your point of view but I don't think you see it from my point of view, i've tried to explain why i disagree.
You are free to believe that but i do not think he would and i have said why. He cared as much for Sarita as the baby and when she died he blamed Clem for it but didn't charge at her for it but he did for Jane so why didn't he physically attack Clem? That's why i believe he would not hurt her and sorry but i'm not going to change my opinion on that so please (if you are) stop trying to change mine. I'm not here insulting you saying your wrong for your opinion am I? So please respect mine, i'd appreciate it.
I'm not saying it was right how he treated her but i'm a forgiving person and i know he didn't mean it so that's good enough for me. If Clementine can forgive Ben for running off like a coward leaving her to die in Around Every Corner then why can't she forgive Kenny over his outburst to her (with the option "it's ok i know you didn't mean it")?
Im sure if we weren't talking about Kenny you are probably a nice guy/girl and we could have a civil conversation about things we like/dislike. Arguments start whenever Jane/Kenny are brought up. I wasn't calling you bitter in particular but there are those who literally post things and every single thing they say about Kenny is negative and you've done the same here whether intentional or not. It's fine for you to slate his character, i don't have a problem that but where's the positives for Kenny from you? Anything at all? Just out of interest? I've actually stated the good things i felt that Jane did and if it means so much to you i'll try and find the post i said that but it was a while ago.
well it sounds it to me, pointing out every single bad thing Kenny has done (which is fine) but not mentioning every good he has done as well as he mentioned above? I can sit here and point out all the bad things he's done as well and there are a lot of things i've not agreed on. But i can't hate him, he's one of my fav characters and i forgive a lot of shit he's done and i guess i sympathise with him because i witnessed him losing his family where as with Jane or Luke or most other characters in the game, their family wasn't there for me to feel a sense of a loss for them. That's just how it is with me and i'm not going to change my opinion about Kenny. If you don't like it that's fine but sometimes what you say sounds insulting to me but once again, sorry if it's not your intention.
When Kenny apologises there is an option to say "it's ok i know you didn't really mean it", it's a determinant choice (that i bet you'll say is invalid right?) but by choosing that, you are not choosing the line "you really hurt me with what you said". So us as players can say those options depending on how we feel. As i said, sorry fixes it for me and that's all that matters. It's fine that it doesn't for you.
Ok then.
Do you think that the fact he stayed around in the group trying to find safety for everyone (even if his plans wasn't the best) that he didn't care about anyone in the group including Sarah? Because he didn't have to deliver Rebecca's baby but he did, he seemed very annoyed after Luke died even though they argued a lot. I think if he truly hated the group he wouldn't have tried doing what he did for all of them. Again the writing issue is that they didn't explore any interaction with him and Sarah but we cannot simply say "he didn't care" about the children's wellbeing. Sarah was struggling to cope with everything after her dad died and obviously Kenny had his own problems, plus she had Clementine as her her rock including Luke and Rebecca who she had known longer. But like i said, i agree that he didn't acknowledge anything about her and i wish the writers had looked into this.
And I have told you the reasons why I think that it could also be safe and not just unsafe as you believe it could be.
EDIT - Just seen your response below to this. That's fine.
Oh totally! I certainly know what he does isn't always smart. He's done some very stupid things and a number of things i have disagreed with. You may not think this because of my defence of him but i try to be a very neutral player and i will gladly say when i like or don't like something a character has done but there are some people who just can't forgive and forget or decide to always pick and pull at a characters negative traits and never look at the other side of someone. I'm not saying you are like that though.
That's fine, i most likely have took it the wrong way. I guess it's the way you have written it so i'll try to understand your way of writing.
Again it's a maybe or maybe not situation for me but that's just what i think and it's not a fact that she would leave and it's not a fact that she wouldn't. We'd have to see in the future if there was ever a situation where that could happen. Personally I don't think she would have left with Mike, Bonnie and Arvo either if she had known about their plan. I think we can both agree that those 3 can go fuck themselves after what they did!
He said it after Jane dies and just after Clem finds AJ in the car. Clem can say "I thought Jane might have killed him" and he responds with "I was thinking the same thing Clem. It was why i was so fired up. She never wanted the baby around, she made that clear."
I guess so but that's fine both ways.
Well my opinion of Jane can't be changed just as yours probably can't be changed about Kenny. Difference is with some people on this forum (not saying you), i'm not trying to change people's opinions of Jane or Kenny like some are. At least it's not my intention to. But i see what you are saying and it's nice to see you making your points. It makes for interesting read but that's all tbh.
Ok well i'll try not to take offence at your replies. They're your opinions after all
I'm not saying she can magically fix his aggression and depression but i feel she can help tame the beast if you like. That's what i meant by helping him through it, i never said help him get over it. But overall I think it's best we agree to disagree on this
I've already explained why I get annoyed when you flat out deny things without a proper valid point to back it up.
Except that has no place being here because it was never brought up in my point. So it's redundant.
No, you deny shit, while disagreeing, and don't bring up any valid points to back up why you disagree. Sometimes you just say "it's an opinion" and go onto the next thing I say.
Obviously not. Quit reaching.
I honestly don't think you see it from my point at all, because if you did, you'd realize that the things I say are backed up with evidence and facts (or in few cases, most likeliness), and you just say "that's your opinion" or "I disagree and won't change my mind." If you're going to do that, and again, not trying to be "horrible" or anything, then simply stop replying and save your time.
I don't think you realize that at that point in time, Kenny had just transitioned from loving someone to being depressed. Kenny, while "letting out anger" by shouting at Clem, knew it wasn't her fault. He witnessed what happened to Sarita. Now that the baby is born, he attached to it and didn't want anything to happen to AJ because he'd already lost so much.
An analogy that I can give you to explain this better, is like getting a new pair of really good headphones and it lasts a while (Katjaa and Duck). Then when they break, you're sad and annoyed (obviously), so you get a new pair (Sarita). Then once that pair breaks after not too long of having it, you begin to get frustrated. So you buy another new pair of headphones (AJ) and try to take really good care of it so they don't break like the others, and then you lend them to a friend (Jane) and assume they'd take good care of it. Then when it's time to get them back, they don't have it with them, so you go ape shit.
The baby obviously means a lot to Kenny because he sees that taking care of AJ is like a redemption for not being the best father he could to Duck. Now obviously he's not going to charge at Clementine and full on attack her like he did to Jane, but there's a good chance (which doesn't mean he will certainly do it) he could use violence against her if she ever failed to keep the baby safe. And I swear to God, this isn't an opinion. Again, common sense.
Giving you information so that you can understand that what you believe isn't a logical belief isn't "trying to change your opinion," it's letting you have the chance to take in what I said and choose to adapt to the info or not. If you're just going to ignore what I'm saying and stick to the belief you have, then you're wasting both mine and your time. And again, you can stop replying. (shit, you don't even have to stop replying. you can just skip over the part you're going to not care about and go onto the next).
I'm not even insulting you for your opinion. Do you know what I'd appreciate? For you stop telling me what you think I'm doing because I know what I'm doing.
Until you do that, will I respect you.
That's fine, but me not doing what you're doing doesn't make me a bitter person for refusing to shrug it off as easily as you do.
If Hitler can kill millions of people for not having blonde hair and blue eyes, then why can't I kill people for not having a hair/eye color I like?
I'm not saying what you decided to do was wrong, I'm just trying to say that your comparison wasn't a very good one since Clem and you are two different people. (As are Hitler and I, just wanna make that clear lol).
Well as far as I know, we're both trying to be civil. Kenny/Jane discussions don't dictate if I'm civil or not. (Luke discussions get me heated tho lmao)
You do realize that I actually have brought up good things that Kenny has done, right? Just like I've brought up bad things that Jane has done, despite the fact that I'm trying to get people to acknowledge the majority of good she's done? That's how debates work, my friend. We're talking about the bad that Kenny's done and how people seem to gloss over that and excuse it because he's a fan favourite, and how Jane's good deeds have also been glossed over and she's known for her few bad actions (that I've explained). If bringing up the bad shit Kenny has done bothers you in anyway, then Kenny/Jane discussions just aren't your type of challenge then.
I understand that and have nothing against that, by all means I'm not trying to make you hate Kenny. That's not and never will be my intention for anyone I debate against.
Please go over my posts and read them again because I definitely have said good things about Kenny, and I really hope you're not ignoring them.
You do realize that this is a debate, right? A debate where I'm arguing that Kenny has done bad and Jane has done good, contrary to popular belief? My goal isn't to stay on the fence about Kenny, and like I've said before I know his intentions are good, but there's a lot of bad stuff that Kenny has done to the point where it's abusive.
It's not and please don't think it is. I'm not going to insult anyone over their opinion (unless their opinion insults others, then y'know, but yours don't).
I'm not going to say that Clem saying "it's okay" means she's lying and it's not okay, but I will say that whether she forgives him or not, there's still going to be psychological damage left there because that's how the human brain works. If someone brought up that Sarita died or that Kenny blamed her, she's still going to a negative emotion over it despite Kenny apologizing and her forgiving.
Kenny obviously believes in safety in numbers since he's hardly ever alone unless he was separated from them or knew he was going to return to the group (like when he and Luke went to check the transformer, he wasn't actually leaving the group). In the Motor-Inn, he disliked Lilly and Larry a lot, but still stayed because he believed in safety with numbers. (I might be wrong about this, so don't hold me accountable, but I think Kenny may have even brought up the fact that he thinks being with multiple people is safer).
He surely didn't care about some people in the group. He wanted to hurry up and leave the observation deck despite Rebecca just giving birth. He didn't even acknowledge Sarah's death. Whenever the group had other ideas, he told them that he didn't care what they thought and that his idea was the one they should go with. If they even disagreed with him he'd be bitter towards them.
Technically, no, he didn't. But generally, yes, he did, because he was the only person who knew about babies. And it isn't in character for Kenny to not deliver the baby anyway, he just isn't that type of guy.
The only thing I can explain for that is that Kenny knew Luke was a good guy all long, knew that he was a good leader too, which is why they most likely butted heads. He might have felt threatened as he was the leader of the group Clementine was with, but could've soon realized that Luke's intentions weren't ever bad and he was a good person. I figure it's got something to do with masculinity or something, but this is all just a theory. (but tbh who can hate Luke, I mean come on. he's got puppy eyes for shit sake).
I also think it's got something to do with Arvo running away which made him already mad, and he probably thought that because Arvo did that, Luke got distracted, which sent both Luke and Clem (if Clem breaks the ice in the [Cover Luke] option) and determinately Bonnie down into the water. But because it's Kenny, he was pissed that Clem fell in.
I never said he hated the group, and I'm sure both you and I know that he didn't hate them. But there's only so little of what good Kenny actually did for the group since he was either focused on Sarita or AJ the rest of the time.
I wouldn't say "the children's" wellbeing, more like he didn't care for Sarah's. I just don't see why they wouldn't implement him at least talking to Sarah about something, but since they didn't and it's in the story that he doesn't even pay attention to Sarah, we're gonna have to chalk it up as he didn't care about her.
Yes they definitely should have.
Well, I can't make you see the other side of it and that's okay, but just know that how she acted after first leaving, it's just more likely (not fact) that she wouldn't ditch Clem.
Agreed. Though I do understand the reason as to why they wanted to leave. Them wanting to leave because of Kenny shouldn't be what makes you dislike them (as it's not what makes me dislike them), but stealing ALL the supplies knowing full well that their's a baby in the group, Arvo shooting Clementine, and Mike and Bonnie running away after it, should be what makes you dislike them.
I think he meant that she made it clear by hiding the baby and saying he died, thinking that she was trying to get rid of him, when actually she was trying to prove a point to Clem.
My opinion of Kenny isn't a negative one. I acknowledge that he's dangerous, aggressive, irrational, and not fit to take care of a kid because of the trauma he's gone through in the outbreak. His behaviour is warped because of the shit that's happened to him, which brings me back to my point of Clem not being able to fix him. But I still like him because of his intentions being good.
But your opinion of Jane strikes me as that you acknowledge that she's not that bad of a person, but still choose to dislike her anyway. (If that's not your intention, then I apologize). And I know I can't change that, but it does paint you in quite the bad light. That's like me, even though I know Kenny tries to be good and his intentions are good, disliking him because of the bad stuff he's done. But I don't, I do like Kenny.
So it just seems a bit hypocritical that you forgive and like Kenny for the bad stuff he's done because you know his intentions were good and that something drove him to do it, but you won't do that for Jane when she's done bad stuff, but her intentions are all in the right place like Kenny's was.
Educating them about the characters and trying to change their mind about characters are two different things. That's why people have debates about Jane and Kenny so much because of despite contrary belief, there's more to the two characters other than "Jane hid the baby and wanted to leave Sarah! She's evil!" and "Kenny's only like this because he cares! He never did anything wrong!" (Not saying you're like this).
Oh boy, have the tables turned. I think I can say this without feeling any sinking feeling, but...
That's your opinion.
I'm glad that my points sound interesting to you, but I hoped that you'd take them into account and see these characters in a different light than what you started out with. I mean, that's why we're having this whole debate, right?
It's fine
Ok fair enough. All i can say is i'll try to explain any points to do with something i disagree with. I guess i'm not as thorough as you but in regards to Clem not being able to help Kenny, i think you misunderstood what i meant and i misunderstood what you thought until i read it again. I wasn't saying she can magically fix his aggression and depression but i feel she can help tame the beast if you like. That's what i meant by helping him through it, i never said help him get over it. But overall I think it's best we agree to disagree on anything else to do with this.
i suppose it doesn't but just wanted you to be aware that that is something someone said via the other site.
I just still can't see him doing that though because of the way he feels about Clem and because I don't feel he is psychotic enough to do that. Psycho's don't calm down like he did after killing Jane and he even regrets it after doing what he did. Im sorry if that's not what you want to hear but I just can't see it. As i said before, if he was going to ever hit her then i think he would have done it all the times he only shouted at her.
Until you do that, will I respect you.
Ok then i apologise.
Again i said I wasn't calling you a bitter person in particular but im sorry you read it that way.
True but does it matter if it's a good comparison or not? If it's not a good comparison to you, well i think it is lol. I tried to play Clem in a good light as most people im sure and i just wanted to compare for the sake of it, not to prove anything as such.
Lol can't say I've really been involved in a Luke debate. Are you a Luke fan?
I'm really sorry to sound ignorant or if I'm stupid if i've missed them but could you paste them here? I'm not saying you haven't said anything but there are a lot of posts here and if I'm honest i cannot be bothered scrolling through to find and see what you have said. Thanks would appreciate it.
And if you could paste the things bad about Jane here that would be great too. Sorry to be awkward.
I do acknowledge that and i hope i'm not sounding like I ignore that. Perhaps there is some bias for him from me but obviously that's because he's one of my fav characters. I try to be less one sided though.
I don't actually have a problem with people mentioning all the bad things he's done to be honest because i agree with a lot of the criticism for him because he has done things that I don't agree with but there are also things that i did agree with him on.
No problem. I'm sorry i took it the wrong way in the way i read your posts.
Ok well as long as she didn't take it to heart or it doesn't affect her mentally in the future i guess its something we'd have to see right? Because i've not seen any signs of psychological damage to her for what he said.
I agree, i believe he wanted people round. I also genuinely believe he wanted to help people he was with even though he could be an asshole at times.
I do think he cared for people he was with but didn't always show it. He even said once "i have my problems with Lilly but I don't distrust her" when talking to Lee about supplies going missing, meaning he obviously felt he could be around her and trust her.
You could say he wanted to hurry them up not because he didn't care for them but because he was concerned about their situation and his own and waiting would affect things for them. Although I agree he wasn't wanting to do what they wanted but still his intentions i think were meant for the good of everyone. I disagreed with him because i thought Rebecca would be in a much worse state if they moved straight away but turns out the same scene takes place if you stay or leave the deck straight away anyway.
Yes again it was terrible writing, he didn't even acknowledge Carlos death or Nick's determinant death. The writers should have done so much more.
Yes i know and sadly that's just how he is, much like how Larry always was, an asshole to everyone. Trust me, when Kenny got like this i didn't agree completely on his actions but like i said to you, i just like the guy despite that and still wanted him around. His intentions for everyone he felt were for the best even though sometimes they weren't.
I also think it's got something to do with Arvo running away which made him already mad, and he probably thought that because Arvo did that, Luke got distracted, which sent both Luke and Clem (if Clem breaks the ice in the [Cover Luke] option) and determinately Bonnie down into the water. But because it's Kenny, he was pissed that Clem fell in.
Yeah that's exactly what i think also. He blamed Arvo for Luke's death and i'd say he's partially right because if he hadn't run the ice maybe wouldn't have cracked. The whole scene in my opinion was not only idiotic by the group when they should have walked around but stupid on the writers behalf again in my opinion.
I know this. I was just saying that the things he did do for the group like starting up a truck and delivering Rebecca's baby were for the good of the group and he always tried to help get everyone somewhere safe but again as i said, his actions were not always the best and that's how he is. He doesn't always think things through or listen's to others because what he thinks is best for everyone and it's not always the case.
As it didn't show his feelings towards Sarah i guess we will never know and again i wish they had elaborated on this. Even one line from a character mentioning Sarah to him to see what he said would have been fine. He probably felt some kind of loss for her. He seemed sad about Alvin losing his life for example and they never interacted apart from once when they first met. Only difference was that they included Kenny talking about Alvin and not Sarah.
That's what i'm kind of saying. Maybe she would be more likely to stay and not leave but i guess it's also down to how much we trust her. You'd have to take her word for it when she said she wouldn't leave again.
Oh god no! We're on the same page here don't worry about that. That is exactly why i disliked them because despite their reasons, they fucked over everyone and were prepared to leave Clem and the baby, Jane and Kenny with absolutely nothing. I found it so ridiculous that they would willingly just leave with a guy who not long ago him and his Russian pals held them at gunpoint and threatened to rob them and all they ever did was defend him because Kenny was horrible to him yet I couldn't blame him. Ok, the beating up on him was extreme although it was because i felt he was protecting himself and the group by doing so but was unneeded and is what led to them deciding to leave and we can partially blame him for that but again in my opinion it's bad writing because I don't think people who were threatened at gun point would be willing to trust or go with a guy who did that, even if Arvo didn't actually "hold a gun" at them, he was still involved in the ambush and I never liked or trusted him after that. It annoyed me too because i really liked Mike until that point but I always expected Bonnie was capable of doing something like that. Trust me, i agree 100% here with you. I'm not full on bias towards just Kenny. I care more about Clem than anyone else just so we're clear.
By the way sorry if it takes me a day or so to reply. I work 2 jobs with different shift times each day and typing on my phone is a pain in the ass so takes me even longer lol
That's fair enough, it's okay.
It's the only way to get your point across without getting any "if", "and"'s, or "but"'s.
Omg, where have you been for the past 2 and a half years? I feel like I've gotten to the point of being a Luke fan where I can literally sniff out the name anywhere on the forum lol. I'm a die-hard Luke fan.
Sure can.
Don't get me wrong, I am arguing that Kenny does a lot of bad things (despite what a lot of people believe) which is why I bring them up more than the good things he's done, and from your standpoint, looks like I'm attacking him and not bringing up that Kenny's a good person. Which isn't what you may think it seems. I know full and well that Kenny is trying to be the good person he once was, but we also need to take into account that his mental health (and I also think the eye injury as Carlos suggested that there could have been some brain damage) has made that hard for him.
Before I do, I just need to remind/clarify for you that I'm arguing that Jane has done a lot of good things despite popular belief. So of course, there won't be that much bad points about Jane.
Ah, and I just realized, that it's my original post below that states the bad that Jane's done (which of course has gotten me muddled up since our debate is so incredibly long, so I hope you understand), so just in case you haven't seen them (or have), I'll copy and paste those here.
Again, there's not gonna be much points about Jane being bad because that's not what I'm arguing for.
That's okay, like you previously explained before, you sympathize with Kenny because you got to go through what he went through with him. But you said you're trying, and that's good enough. It's understandable, just like how there'd obviously be a bias from me if this discussion was about Luke and not Jane. But I noticed that the few that don't like Luke have seemed to read his character completely wrong and dislike him for all the wrong/irrational reasons. That's a whole different can of worms, though. :P
Well, realistically, there would have been some psychological damage. But since this game isn't so realistic, given all the unrealistic tendencies it shows, then yes, we DO have to wait and see. And if we do see Clem in Season 3 as an older girl, then like the saying goes, "time heals all wounds" (or maybe even "with time comes grace"), then she might have been able to overcome any negative feeling towards those events.
A majority of the carelessness he shows towards the group members has been after he was injured by Carver and lost Sarita, so those factors could play a huge part in that. I don't think Kenny wanted anyone to die at all, despite his lack of showing that.
I could say that, but since he was constantly bringing up that they needed to go to Wellington, I think it's because he just wanted to hurry and get there while not worrying about the others.
You'd think that Luke got nervous because Arvo ran and took a wrong step (I thought that at first, too), but if you remember, Clementine stepped on thin ice and made a crack. But because she was light enough, she didn't fall through. Luke was walking directly behind her. He stepped on the thin ice, which started to crack even more since he's a grown man, and eventually sent him through.
I couldn't agree with you more.
In Alvin's case, Kenny was talking about AJ, which is why he mentioned him. There's nothing left of Sarah that was brought up after her deaths.
Definitely unneeded, but I think it's because he got offended that Arvo said "fuck you" to him. Which Kenny provoked by shoving him and being racist. I don't think it had anything to do with protection, as Arvo was tied up and unarmed. He couldn't do anything unless someone helped him.
Well, I don't think it's exactly bad writing. Arvo was only still a kid (around 17 I think), they felt bad for him and could've theorized that his group wanted to rob Clem's group and not Arvo himself. Also, Arvo never had a gun. He never shot anyone, and in my opinion, I don't think he would've tried to shoot anyone at the time. But of course, times changed and he shot Clem out of fear WHICH IS NOT JUSTIFIABLE. Though explainable.
That's fair enough. I didn't like or trust him either, but I did have sympathy for him and didn't want him to get hurt.
I always thought it was sooo out of character for Bonnie to do that. She showed some type of caretaker/motherly instincts after the group was captured by Carver, given that she felt sorry for her actions. All that character growth of her redeeming herself was just thrown away and ruined once they made her run away. I don't think Bonnie would have took all the supplies knowing full and well that she was leaving a baby and child behind. Shit, I wouldn't even think that Bonnie would've left in the first place, at least not without Clementine. Mike, yeah, because it was shown quite a bit that he didn't like the way Kenny handled things and felt sorry for Arvo. I feel like they soiled Bonnie's character and it would've been better if she had just been killed off with or instead of Luke.
That's okay. I'm quite busy with school as well, and by the time you reply, I'm already home with a few hours before going to bed. It also takes me an hour and a half, sometimes even 2 hours to reply.
Lol i guess i've not really paid attention to posts about Luke so I haven't noticed haha. Well good to know, Luke's ok in my book, i had no beef with him.
Thanks for posting them but i was kind of meaning the good things he's done rather than his good intentions intentions such as when he saved Lee's life at the drugstore after Larry left him to die or saving Christa or mercy killing Ben before what we thought at the time to be sacrificing himself. Or taking the blame for the missing radio so that Clementine wouldn't get beaten down by Carver. But thanks for posting them again. Appreciate it.
Ah, and I just realized, that it's my original post below that states the bad that Jane's done (which of course has gotten me muddled up since our debate is so incredibly long, so I hope you understand), so just in case you haven't seen them (or have), I'll copy and paste those here.
I'll just quickly state what things I didn't like Jane for and what things i did like her for:
The bad things in my opinion:
Probably not really a big deal but thought i'd say again anyway. Referring to AJ as an "it" just felt disrespectful however I realise it's because she's not seemingly great around kids so i'm gonna let that go although it just annoyed me at the time.
Despite her reasons were in my opinion good ones which i did agree with her for, when she asked Rebecca what she was going to do with the baby when it was born, this upset Rebecca because i think Rebecca felt she was implying that she should get rid of it due to the problems it would cause. I just felt it was not a nice thing to say even if her reasons were realistic. Not saying she is a monster for saying it but just very inappropriate.
Although she had her reasons because of her past experience with her sister, I always highly disagreed on her insistence of leaving Sarah behind in the trailer just because she felt she couldn't be helped or you can't force her. While i understand why she said this, i still felt like that the suggesting to leave her to die in such a manner was wrong.
Again later after the deck collapses, she tells Clem and i think Luke to pull her up instead of trying to save Sarah. Even if you ask her to save her or pull her up, Clem has the option to say something like "don't pretend you're sorry, you didn't even want to try" but this is obviously determinant. I realise that she goes down to save her if you stay silent but how i see it was that she didn't really want to put her life at risk to save her. It annoyed me.
Although not really a bad point but thought i'd throw it in here. Having sex with Luke at the worst possible time. It just felt so inappropriate and due to Luke who should have been on watch for walkers, it put the whole group in danger. I blame Jane and not Luke for that because he said "she made me an offer and i took it". I totally get why they did, i mean i certainly wouldn't turn down sex haha but it was such a stupid time to do it and i just did not like Jane for asking for it at that dangerous time.
Leaving the group and would have left without telling anyone if Clem hadn't seen her. Again she had her reasons but it felt like a betrayal when they needed every able body they could get especially with the baby just being born and all.
Again a minor thing although wanted to point it out, offering Clem to drink the alcohol knowing she's only a kid and shouldn't be suggesting she should. But then Bonnie does the same offering a cigarette and Nick also offers Clem alcohol. it's not really important but just annoyed me at the time (and so did Bonnie and Nick).
After Luke falls in the ice and Clem sees him trapped, all you hear from Jane is "it's too late, there's nothing more you can do" and i could be wrong here but i think she even says "you have to leave him" but i could be wrong on that. Point is i did not like how she just seemingly gave up on Luke, a guy she just had sex with and maybe even had feelings for. It's a situation i felt that there was a chance to save him. Obviously if he was hanging off the edge of a building and she couldn't reach him without falling off herself to her death then yes i'd agree. However it was more to do with the whole attitude behind it. I realise she said it because Clem was at risk but what about Luke?
Then obviously the whole hiding AJ to prove a point thing which I won't go into again but despite her intentions i hated it and she shouldn't have done it especially in that way.
The good things:
She helped Clem and Rebecca get through the herd when it seemed like they were struggling to get through.
She taught Clem easier ways to kill walkers and gave her a more reliable weapon. She later also was kind and gave her a file was it? Which i think was meant as a memento of her that as seen in Episode 5 was useful to start a fire.
I appreciated the fact that despite leaving she did come back and saved Kenny's life as well as the rest of the group.
She actually wanted to help Kenny at the start of episode 5 in getting Clem to i guess stabilise him is the best word as she told Clem what we already know that she's the only one he really trusts. I appreciated that she showed concern for a member of the group.
She saved Clem after falling in the ice and started a fire with Mike to keep her and determinant Bonnie warm.
She gave Clem advice about Kenny and although i disagreed with what she said, I appreciated the concern or suggestion.
There may be more good and bad things but i can't think of any more right now.
I would be surprised if this was ever brought up as a factor in season 3 to be honest but yes we have to see if she was affected by it but she may have already shown signs of psychological damage from his reaction but I didn't notice anything at the time or after the convo but anyway...
Yeah I agree with you. That's why i get annoyed with a lot of anti Kenny fans sometimes because some just criticise him without looking at the other side of things such as, as you said, possible brain damage followed by the stricken grief of losing Sarita shortly afterwards that affected his mind badly. He's not that type of guy generally, and to quote something he actually said was "i can be a real shit sometimes" and it's true, he can be an ass speaking to people sometimes when they don't agree with him on something he feels is the right or best thing to do even though it sometimes isn't. So the possible brain damage would have made him more aggressive and irrational. I just feel some people ignore this and always focus on all the bad and not the good. Thanks again for your input.
Well if you choose to stay a few days for Rebecca to recover before leaving the observation deck, he does stay with them and if he wasn't concerned about the others would he have took off? He was pointing out the town that they could see in the distance as a stopping point but i was so annoyed when the writers just either forgot or decided not to include it in the following episode.
Yes again it goes back to what i said that it was stupid all of them walking across the ice in the first place. In a way all of them were to blame. They should have either gone one at a time or walked around the lake.
Yes i know. They could have had a scene (maybe the same scene when Clem was changing his bandage) where Kenny could say he wish he'd thanked Carlos for tending to his eye and patching him up and then could have mentioned his thoughts on Sarah or at least something but again they didn't so i just class it as an oversight by the writers or that they just didn't think to mention it or felt it was important enough.
I guess that all comes down to how we perceive the character and situations but ok.
I admit that i did feel for him for losing his sister the way he did but then she was involved in the ambush and she knew the risks of doing so and Arvo did as well. It's one of those situations where if those people still had some humanity they would have come to a deal of sorts and no one would have died but then it wouldn't be very exciting story-wise then would it lol.
I guess after she lied when she first came to the lodge saying "i have a family and a little girl like you" and Walter gave her the supplies and then revealed to be part of Carver's crew. Yeah she apologised and I don't think shes all that bad and again i see what you mean but she was capable of deceiving them and in 400 Days you can lie as her character to Leland but yes i see what you are saying. I was always shifty of her character from that moment though and the way she treated me after Luke's death after doing what "he" wanted me to do further pissed me off. I can forgive her for that but after her stunt with Mike and Arvo just did it for me, especially telling a concerned Mike after Clem was shot to "just leave her"
Yes agreed.
I don't think Bonnie would have took all the supplies knowing full and well that she was leaving a baby and child behind. Shit, I wouldn't even think that Bonnie would've left in the first place, at least not without Clementine. Mike, yeah, because it was shown quite a bit that he didn't like the way Kenny handled things and felt sorry for Arvo. I feel like they soiled Bonnie's character and it would've been better if she had just been killed off with or instead of Luke.
And again yes agreed.
No dude i mean like , doesnt even anyone from u all tried to install a twd s1 or 2 without get it moded so u play all episodes for free ?
Ehhhhh... Kind of but not really. She was more in the right than Kenny at least.
She was more in the right??
If Jane hadn't done what she did then nothing would have happened and no one would have died. But because it did happen, both of them were in the wrong and we all know that
That is incorrect. Luke and Bonnie still would have drowned, Mike and Arvo still would have left because of Kenny's idiocy, and Rebecca still would have died from the lack of medicine.
They were both in the wrong, yes. But Kenny was Clem's worst chance for survival by far when you think about it. In my opinion, Jane was the one who had the best POV.
Im suprised that comment didnt get you banned, maybe you should delete it
Actually Jane was going to ask Clem to leave:
Jane: Clem. We could leave. Right now.
Clem: Are you Serious? What about AJ?
Jane: Look, i know you're close to him, but... Kenny would never let him go.
Then they're interrupted by 2 gunshots and walkers.
I have no idea what made jane chose that executing the plan was a better idea than talking to Clem. This also shows that jane had about 5 minutes to think about the whole plan which may explain why it was so shitty and was executed so badly.
It's kind of funny that Arvo's duffel bag full of medicine, medical supplies and bottled water determinantly transforms into a single jar of oxycotin, right? And that jar then transforms into a single pill, because, logic!
To be fair, I let Arvo keep his bag in my playthrough. But even taking the bag is ridiculous. Although, what more do you expect from TWD Season 2?
Um? I think you misunderstood me? The topic is whether Jane was in the right or not about what she did in making Kenny mad and then you mentioned past events? My "no one would have died" comment wasn't referring to what happened previously but rather what happened in the final scene between Kenny and Jane.
Yes but that's just it, it's "your opinion" which is fine but not everyone sees it like that but i'm sure you knew that already lol
PERFECT
Looking at your explanation (which wasn't provided in the original comment), it seems I did misunderstand. I see what you mean now. Yes, the final scene wouldn't have happened. But Kenny was going to do something stupid anyway, see Season One for example.
Yep. I completely respect your opinion, although I don't entirely agree with it.
Given the fact Kenny had already lost Duck and it had already messed him up from the get go, Jane doing what she did was out of line and made the situation worse. I mean you already lost your son don't you think seeing another child possibly die would screw up your mind even more?
Exactly. It was just unneeded and there could have been other ways to get her point across but even then she didn't have to. You try and help a person who is suffering in the way he was, not drive him further into madness! Even if he couldn't be helped.
Honestly I see Jane's plan like this: "Kenny's on the edge. I'm going to push him over the edge to prove the point he's gone over the edge!" Except he wasn't over the edge until you pushed him! It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. (#TeamKenny4Lyfe #DoItForTheStache)
Let's see, unnecessarily provoke a grieving man and either get yourself killed or get a little girl to kill her friend all to prove some weird point....
No, Jane wasn't in the right.
You mean provoking a man that through two entire series has shown himself to be a jackass who was so pleasant to be around his wife chose to take her own life. A man who was so foolish as to aggravate a situation and get people killed at the ski lodge. A man who thought it was a good idea to beat the crap out of Arvo and then act indignant when Arvo strikes back. Oh and Arvo Potter looked what 98 pounds soaking wet...sure let's keep abusing him. The shit he put Lee through...do as I say or you are a traitor...like kill Larry. No Kenny was a jerk...hell I am sure as a walker he is a jerk to other walkers.
You may want to take an ethics class if you think any of that (most of it determinant based on what Clem does anyway) justifies provoking a deadly situation and putting a baby in danger.
And Kenny was right about Arvo too!
You help grieving people. You don't provoke them.
When friend's family members have died i know i haven't gone out to try to prove some arcane point to them.
I do help grieving people, but only those I care about. Jane absolutely hated Kenny and for good reason. She has no reason to help him and even if she tried he wouldn't accept it. Kenny is an old stubborn piece of shit, but deep inside of him there is a good man. I'm just not waiting another season of his bullshit to find it.