I've experimented a bit with speed in Guybrush's first encounter with Largo, and these are the results:
SE: 1:03
Original, standard speed: 1:02
Original, speed +1: 0:54
Original, speed +2: 0:45
So judging by this little test, standard speed in the original is about as fast as SE speed.
That was another thing I had planned on doing. I'll probably double check it myself using various sequences before I do my two runs. What concerns me is that there seems to be quite a few characters who speak fairly slowly, so I'm hoping that after all the adjustments I end up making, my two times are similar, otherwise text speed could be a difficult obstacle to overcome.
I just got Camstudio working for ScummVM and FRAPS working for MI2:SE, so I'll be running both games shortly. I may put my recording of ScummVM on my laptop while I play SE to ensure I make the two runs as close as possible.
Somewhere in the preferences, there's a setting to save your broadcasts to the My Videos folder. They'll save in .flv format, so you'll need a player for that.
As I said before, the problem is that the characters now speak at varying speeds. In the Elaine cutscene, the fairest VGA setting is +2. In the campfire scene, it's +1. With Largo, it's split between +0 and +1. Here's the total time differences:
+0: +0:32
+1: -0:01
+2: -0:33
So based on the first three scenes, the fairest text speed is +1. The problem is that this is going to be going up and down through the whole game, so there's really no way to determine a fair text speed. Unfortunately, I think the best I can do is figure text speed into my final adjustment. I'm going to do my recorded test run of the original at +1 speed now.
Okay, I have an awesome video of an almost perfect run of MI2 classic. I clocked the run at 1:56. I'm going to take a short break and then get started on the special edition.
Finished with the SE and have an equally good video. It's in 42 pieces and 161 GB (thanks, FRAPS), but it's still equal to the classic video because that one has the audio hugely out of sync.
Anyway, the run was 2:16, but at least a good 10 minutes of that was credits. I'll have to go back to the video and see what the final time was, as well as starting the game up again without FRAPS running to see if the credits run faster. I'll have more word for you guys later.
Also, you guys really need to post. I'd hate to have to make my fifth post in a row for the next update.
To help out with the text speed, I recorded how long chapter 1 (from the largo embargo chapter screen to the four map pieces chapter screen) took me in original and SE. In the original (with standard speed+1), it took me 21:48, and in the SE 24:49. In the original with standard speed, it took me 25:12. I'd say, based on these results, that standard speed for the original is fair.
I'm still leaning towards default +1, but I'll let you know after I do some more analysis on these videos.
I think standard speed would be fairer. In your run, the original was 20 minutes faster than the SE. Of course, the SE gets 3,5 minutes off because of the different credits, but that still is a difference of 16,5 minutes.
In my run of chapter 1, there's only twenty seconds between standard speed and SE speed, while standard+1 gives a difference of three minutes.
Like I said, I still have a lot more to look at before I can make a fair decision. What I can say for sure right now is that you're underestimating the credits. From the end of the Elaine scene to the end of the SE credits was a whole 12:42.
Like I said, I have a lot more to check on, like how my own standardized runs of chapter 1 compare to each other. The text speed in the SE is so all over the place that I'm collecting data from all over the place to try and crack this thing.
You know, the relationship is very likely to be linear, if people with SE could just time a run from the very start to the very end with SE, and with VGA, with both at max speed, then we could drum up a conversion formula quite easily.
Well, I just confirmed that for some reason, FRAPS made the end credits run slower. I ran the credits without, and looked at the video again. It took 24 seconds for a line of text to run from bottom to top without FRAPS, and 34 seconds with.
Fortunately, I was intending to cut that portion of the credits off entirely anyway, so we're good there.
And I totally agree, dood. I'm working on that very thing right now. There's just a few little problem spots (like the credits) to iron out before I can totally come up with a solution. I'm definitely on my way there, though.
Maybe, but thankfully it only seems to be confined to the credits.
I may have to back out on my earlier promise to have it figured out "in 17 hours". I have the video done, but I need to tinker with it before I can really get any results from it. I have no audio cues in the classic video because it's off by 3 seconds (which I think I can fix), and right now the 40+ piece fragmented SE video is hard to manage as well. I only have an hour left before I absolutely have to go to bed, so I'll do my best to get the videos into working order in that time and I'll hopefully have some results tomorrow.
I'm taking most of the night off to hang out with a friend, but I'll be back to it in a while. I have the classic video into a workable format and the SE video is almost there as well. I'll get back to you guys in a couple hours.
I chose 16 different points in the game to determine the difference between versions:
Opening Credits
Flying spit
Grave digging
Sailing from Scabb to Phatt
Prize wheel
Sailing from Phatt to Booty
Fluttering map piece
Bone Dance
Sailing from Booty to Scabb
Hammering Stan in the coffin
Moving the flags for the spit contest
Sinking to the shipwreck
Bird flying to big tree
Rapp Scallion's resurrection
End credits (beginning to Elaine)
End credits (Elaine to end)
After carefully checking these points of interest and determining to cut the SE credits off after the Elaine scene, I came up with a time adjustment of...adding 29 seconds. Seriously, the pieces of MI2 that take longer than in the original game actually manage to almost totally balance out with the removal of the opening credits and the omission of most of the end credits.
So how does that work with my two runs? Well, adjusting for the 12 minutes of credits I cut off and the 29 seconds...there's still an 8 minute difference. To put that in perspective, I've done two practice runs of the original game with the text speed the same for both, using the same guide and doing things the same way, and the difference was 4 minutes, most of which can be attributed to me screwing around in the Dinky Island jungle because I tried to bypass the parrot and took longer than I should've to learn that it doesn't work. As a control to determine my ability to do two identical runs when using a guide, I'd call that pretty good.
Another thing of note is that the entire tunnel sequence (timed from when you get control of Guybrush to when LeChuck hits the ground afterward) took me a full two minutes longer in the SE due to difficulties in getting LeChuck to appear to even try to give him the hankie. Now we're at about an effective unaccounted for five minute difference between the two runs.
So I guess the question is, can you guys think of any other points I should look at, and do you feel that an even subtraction of 0:06:30 from SE runs is fair?
I'm still going to check how long the individual chapters took and see if there's any sort of pattern there, and I may do a second run of The Largo Embargo at normal text speed to compare like Apenpaap did and see if it really does work out better. On the other hand, I've done so many text speed comparisons that I may be able to just determine how to adjust a run for text speed.
I think a five-minute subtraction for the SE would be fine. Are we gonna solve the creditlength problem by just ending it at the scene were Elaine says she wonders if LeChuck cast a spell on Guybrush?
I think a five-minute subtraction for the SE would be fine. Are we gonna solve the creditlength problem by just ending it at the scene were Elaine says she wonders if LeChuck cast a spell on Guybrush?
In the SE yes, in classic it still has to play to the end. I'm not certain five minutes is the correct time, though. In the sequences I timed out, classic was 30 seconds longer. The tunnel sequence was two minutes longer in SE. That puts us at a 1:30 subtraction on SE and the SE run is still five minutes longer. I know the extra minute and a half doesn't seem like much, but given that I've done two runs in the last week that were within four minutes of Ozzie's time from the last race, I feel it's sort of important to get this thing right.
I don't know, maybe there really is no fair way to make the SE work.
P.S.: apenpaap is without a capital a.
That's how I usually write your name and most other people's without capitals, but it always feels awkward to write someone's name without a capital so once in a while I'll do it out of habit.
I find it really hard to believe that Icedhope finished SOMI in 1 hour and 23 mins, im finding it impossible to get up to part 2 in under 1 hour and 15 mins, and thats using a "guide" I made out of the shortest way to do things.
I did it in 1:21 and there was a video on my livestream for a few days until I took it down so as to not give the game away. I suspect I'm going the same route as icedhope.
The only records that I've found "impossible" to beat are Guru's curse run and Ozzie's pirate god run.
I did it in 1:21 and there was a video on my livestream for a few days until I took it down so as to not give the game away. I suspect I'm going the same route as icedhope.
The only records that I've found "impossible" to beat are Guru's curse run and Ozzie's pirate god run.
Well, I dont know how it can be done, I have figured out the shortest way to do everything, but with all those cutscenes and learning the insults I cant get to part 2 in under 1 hour and 15 mins.
I still think it sounds like too much work to have to accomplish by Monday.
Honestly, you're right. I had wanted to try to do another run of MI2 classic tonight with a different text speed, but after helping my friend move, my hands are in no shape to be speed-running point and click games. I'm probably going to stay up a little while longer and then go to bed.
I so want to allow MI2:SE, but at some point you just have to cut your losses, and I just don't have the time required to develop a truly fair way to do this. At this point, we can either delay the race, or we can disallow the SE and hopefully I'll have a fair method figured out by December.
I find it really hard to believe that Icedhope finished SOMI in 1 hour and 23 mins, im finding it impossible to get up to part 2 in under 1 hour and 15 mins, and thats using a "guide" I made out of the shortest way to do things.
He was playing the classic game on the fastest speed. I've played the game at that speed and finished in 1:28. It's possible.
I did it in 1:21 and there was a video on my livestream for a few days until I took it down so as to not give the game away. I suspect I'm going the same route as icedhope.
The only records that I've found "impossible" to beat are Guru's curse run and Ozzie's pirate god run.
Honestly, the route in that game only seems to count for a small amount.
As for Curse, I don't know what to tell you. I have a video of that run on my computer (with two small gaps from my internet going out during the run), and I've managed to repeat it. I played Mega-Monkey, I did easy ship combat. Maybe it's that I've played Curse countless times over the last 13 years and have a very deep knowledge of the game.
I think we should take a vote on whether to delay the race, I wouldnt mind if it got delayed coz I really want to use the SE, plus I have a lot going on this week.
I think we should take a vote on whether to delay the race, I wouldnt mind if it got delayed coz I really want to use the SE, plus I have a lot going on this week.
The race is more of a time trial than a single race. You can start 2 weeks from now and if your time is the lowest then you would still win. Only if the organizing guys let you though.
I find it really hard to believe that Icedhope finished SOMI in 1 hour and 23 mins, im finding it impossible to get up to part 2 in under 1 hour and 15 mins, and thats using a "guide" I made out of the shortest way to do things.
My time this race won't be nearly as close as it was, and as dood in the mood said it's possible.
Comments
SE: 1:03
Original, standard speed: 1:02
Original, speed +1: 0:54
Original, speed +2: 0:45
So judging by this little test, standard speed in the original is about as fast as SE speed.
I just got Camstudio working for ScummVM and FRAPS working for MI2:SE, so I'll be running both games shortly. I may put my recording of ScummVM on my laptop while I play SE to ensure I make the two runs as close as possible.
Guybrush and Elaine
SE: 0:28
VGA +0: 0:36 (+8)
VGA +1: 0:32 (+4)
VGA +2: 0:26 (-2)
Campfire
SE: 1:32
+0: 1:51 (+19)
+1: 1:32 (+0)
+2: 1:15 (-17)
Largo
SE: 1:03
+0: 1:08 (+5)
+1: 0:58 (-5)
+2: 0:49 (-14)
As I said before, the problem is that the characters now speak at varying speeds. In the Elaine cutscene, the fairest VGA setting is +2. In the campfire scene, it's +1. With Largo, it's split between +0 and +1. Here's the total time differences:
+0: +0:32
+1: -0:01
+2: -0:33
So based on the first three scenes, the fairest text speed is +1. The problem is that this is going to be going up and down through the whole game, so there's really no way to determine a fair text speed. Unfortunately, I think the best I can do is figure text speed into my final adjustment. I'm going to do my recorded test run of the original at +1 speed now.
Anyway, the run was 2:16, but at least a good 10 minutes of that was credits. I'll have to go back to the video and see what the final time was, as well as starting the game up again without FRAPS running to see if the credits run faster. I'll have more word for you guys later.
Also, you guys really need to post. I'd hate to have to make my fifth post in a row for the next update.
Really.
I think standard speed would be fairer. In your run, the original was 20 minutes faster than the SE. Of course, the SE gets 3,5 minutes off because of the different credits, but that still is a difference of 16,5 minutes.
In my run of chapter 1, there's only twenty seconds between standard speed and SE speed, while standard+1 gives a difference of three minutes.
Like I said, I have a lot more to check on, like how my own standardized runs of chapter 1 compare to each other. The text speed in the SE is so all over the place that I'm collecting data from all over the place to try and crack this thing.
Fortunately, I was intending to cut that portion of the credits off entirely anyway, so we're good there.
And I totally agree, dood. I'm working on that very thing right now. There's just a few little problem spots (like the credits) to iron out before I can totally come up with a solution. I'm definitely on my way there, though.
I may have to back out on my earlier promise to have it figured out "in 17 hours". I have the video done, but I need to tinker with it before I can really get any results from it. I have no audio cues in the classic video because it's off by 3 seconds (which I think I can fix), and right now the 40+ piece fragmented SE video is hard to manage as well. I only have an hour left before I absolutely have to go to bed, so I'll do my best to get the videos into working order in that time and I'll hopefully have some results tomorrow.
I have no idea. That's pretty weird.
I'm taking most of the night off to hang out with a friend, but I'll be back to it in a while. I have the classic video into a workable format and the SE video is almost there as well. I'll get back to you guys in a couple hours.
I chose 16 different points in the game to determine the difference between versions:
Opening Credits
Flying spit
Grave digging
Sailing from Scabb to Phatt
Prize wheel
Sailing from Phatt to Booty
Fluttering map piece
Bone Dance
Sailing from Booty to Scabb
Hammering Stan in the coffin
Moving the flags for the spit contest
Sinking to the shipwreck
Bird flying to big tree
Rapp Scallion's resurrection
End credits (beginning to Elaine)
End credits (Elaine to end)
After carefully checking these points of interest and determining to cut the SE credits off after the Elaine scene, I came up with a time adjustment of...adding 29 seconds. Seriously, the pieces of MI2 that take longer than in the original game actually manage to almost totally balance out with the removal of the opening credits and the omission of most of the end credits.
So how does that work with my two runs? Well, adjusting for the 12 minutes of credits I cut off and the 29 seconds...there's still an 8 minute difference. To put that in perspective, I've done two practice runs of the original game with the text speed the same for both, using the same guide and doing things the same way, and the difference was 4 minutes, most of which can be attributed to me screwing around in the Dinky Island jungle because I tried to bypass the parrot and took longer than I should've to learn that it doesn't work. As a control to determine my ability to do two identical runs when using a guide, I'd call that pretty good.
Another thing of note is that the entire tunnel sequence (timed from when you get control of Guybrush to when LeChuck hits the ground afterward) took me a full two minutes longer in the SE due to difficulties in getting LeChuck to appear to even try to give him the hankie. Now we're at about an effective unaccounted for five minute difference between the two runs.
So I guess the question is, can you guys think of any other points I should look at, and do you feel that an even subtraction of 0:06:30 from SE runs is fair?
I'm still going to check how long the individual chapters took and see if there's any sort of pattern there, and I may do a second run of The Largo Embargo at normal text speed to compare like Apenpaap did and see if it really does work out better. On the other hand, I've done so many text speed comparisons that I may be able to just determine how to adjust a run for text speed.
P.S.: apenpaap is without a capital a.
In the SE yes, in classic it still has to play to the end. I'm not certain five minutes is the correct time, though. In the sequences I timed out, classic was 30 seconds longer. The tunnel sequence was two minutes longer in SE. That puts us at a 1:30 subtraction on SE and the SE run is still five minutes longer. I know the extra minute and a half doesn't seem like much, but given that I've done two runs in the last week that were within four minutes of Ozzie's time from the last race, I feel it's sort of important to get this thing right.
I don't know, maybe there really is no fair way to make the SE work.
That's how I usually write your name and most other people's without capitals, but it always feels awkward to write someone's name without a capital so once in a while I'll do it out of habit.
So are you still trying?
If it helps my last speed run of LR:SE was 2 hours 17 mins
The only records that I've found "impossible" to beat are Guru's curse run and Ozzie's pirate god run.
And took 1:30. Is that too long?
Well, I dont know how it can be done, I have figured out the shortest way to do everything, but with all those cutscenes and learning the insults I cant get to part 2 in under 1 hour and 15 mins.
Honestly, you're right. I had wanted to try to do another run of MI2 classic tonight with a different text speed, but after helping my friend move, my hands are in no shape to be speed-running point and click games. I'm probably going to stay up a little while longer and then go to bed.
I so want to allow MI2:SE, but at some point you just have to cut your losses, and I just don't have the time required to develop a truly fair way to do this. At this point, we can either delay the race, or we can disallow the SE and hopefully I'll have a fair method figured out by December.
He was playing the classic game on the fastest speed. I've played the game at that speed and finished in 1:28. It's possible.
Honestly, the route in that game only seems to count for a small amount.
As for Curse, I don't know what to tell you. I have a video of that run on my computer (with two small gaps from my internet going out during the run), and I've managed to repeat it. I played Mega-Monkey, I did easy ship combat. Maybe it's that I've played Curse countless times over the last 13 years and have a very deep knowledge of the game.
Coz after doing that I finished in 1 Hour 56 mins.
The race is more of a time trial than a single race. You can start 2 weeks from now and if your time is the lowest then you would still win. Only if the organizing guys let you though.
My time this race won't be nearly as close as it was, and as dood in the mood said it's possible.
By normal speech in SE what do you mean? Default or the one with no gaps between sentences?
So you didnt skip cutscenes or anything? What version and text speed did you use?