I actually really like what Frogwares did with their original control scheme. It was really unique and immersive. Being able to walk around a fully realized 3D world and still explore adventure game style. Another game that did this to perfection (until it turned into an FPS half way through) was this one.
As you can see, the game oozes atmosphere. The entire first half is purely adventure and puzzles. I'm not saying that this would work for Monkey Island, but for this game and the Awakened, it was a fantastic leap forward for adventure gaming. Too bad both are so little known the idea didn't take hold.
The one thing that really bugged me with The Awakened was that the switch between playing as Holmes and then playing as Watson was very abrupt and, in first person, confusing. But that's neither here nor there.
Btw one general note on keyboards. Dunno if this has been mentioned already but you should be aware of that there do exist different keyboard layouts, such as QWERTY and QWERTZ. I was quite surprised when i was playing some Strong Bad at a friends place to see that you mapped gaming controls to keys like X and Z without taking care of this.
On a german QWERTZ keyboard steering in the minigames becomes a bit cumbersome due to this. You should use the key Y instead of Z or just move it one key to the right and use X and C unless you want people to practice some special Kung Fu.
Switching the function from Y to Z just means it's the QWERTY users who get annoyed instead of QWERTZ. Better to have it on both, use a key that doesn't move between layouts, or just make it customizable.
Switching the function from Y to Z just means it's the QWERTY users who get annoyed instead of QWERTZ. Better to have it on both, use a key that doesn't move between layouts, or just make it customizable.
Yep, better to provide a way to map your own keys, rather than pick just two schemes.
Switching the function from Y to Z just means it's the QWERTY users who get annoyed instead of QWERTZ. Better to have it on both, use a key that doesn't move between layouts, or just make it customizable.
Ahm, obviously i only suggested switching Z and Y for the QWERTZ layout if similar cases should arise.
Hey Guys,
just wanted to say that I really like the controls of W&G. I hated the MI4 controls though, but were suprised by W&G how good keyboard and mouse can work together. After a minute it all worked intuitionally. Also wouldn't mind if it will be PnC, but really can't understand what is so difficult about the W&G controls.
controlling the game just with the mouse is way more relaxing than having to use both hands. i want to relax when i play adventuregames
please make it just point n click
I won't buy Tales of Monkey Island unless I'm required to interface with the game by way of a used banana peel and two sporks. While wearing a feathered hat.
I'd settle for a mouse :cool::p
Mouse controls are totally unintuitive. The squeaking noises that the device makes is quite distracting and the mouse keeps running off the table when i loosen my grip.
Just got some programmer time allotted to this. Can't believe we didn't think of this
However! Does any possibly improved version have to wait for a next series/season, or do you possibly have time to tweak it still? I understand you have deadlines to meet, and making big changes can be a challenge at this point (and there would have to be plan how to change it). However as unrealistic as it might be, I do hope you have time and some ideas how to tweak this further.
Just played the Wallace And Gromit demo to go take a look what this could look like. Yeah, I know, it's not going to be just this game's controls being brought to Monkey Island. Or Melee. Or Plunder. And wherever else.
I must say that I wish there was a wide range of Gamepad support. At least mine doesn't seem to work. I hope it would for TOMI, as it's really a nice change to be allowed to sit back in your chair and play from there.
PS: The music was way too loud in that demo, at times it's hard to make heads and tails off the voice-overs. Sadly there's only a single volume setting that adjusts everything, from voice overs, the absolutely cool brass style music and bees' humming. But that's something for a different thread entirelly. I'll shut up now.
I actually really like what Frogwares did with their original control scheme. It was really unique and immersive. Being able to walk around a fully realized 3D world and still explore adventure game style. Another game that did this to perfection (until it turned into an FPS half way through) was this one.
As you can see, the game oozes atmosphere. The entire first half is purely adventure and puzzles. I'm not saying that this would work for Monkey Island, but for this game and the Awakened, it was a fantastic leap forward for adventure gaming. Too bad both are so little known the idea didn't take hold.
Access software had first person in their Tex Murphy series from -94. So it is not totally unique.
Just wanted to voice my concerns and, like many others, also state that I prefer Point-and-click over having to use the keyboard.
I was curious what TTG has come up with though, so I played through the WG demo yesterday and it just didn't feel right to me. Sam and Max feels much more natural. The switching of camera-angels (biggest reason for not implementing Point-and-click?) is actually rather annoying to me. Every couple of steps you walk through the garden you skip to a new angle.
And while the animation is absolutely fantastic in that game, the controls bother me so much that I wouldn't buy the game because it is simply not fun to play for me anymore and the reason I play games is to have fun.
I've seen people on this forum claim that graphics are not important and I've seen people on this forum claim that controls are not important. Yet, I've only even known two terms to describe these kind of adventure-games in the past: "Point and click adventures" and "Graphics Adventures". In my mind the graphics and controls are the defining elements of a good adventure game, along with a good story and plenty of jokes.
I also don't see why point-and-click wouldn't work. During the WG demo I often clicked on an empty area, hoping the character would walk over. It would have worked just as well (better even!) than guiding him there using the keyboard controls. On top of that, a double-click on any exit like CMI has, can really speed up the game. It's boring to have to wait for your character to reach the other end of the screen.
I already pre-ordered TMI to support the effort and I'm looking forward to its release. But I'm afraid it will be the same experience as EMI for me. The atmosphere and 'character' is out of the game because of the 3D graphics and the fun is out of it because of the cumbersome controls.
I could never make myself play EMI for more than half an hour and I never finished it while I could still play MI 1-3 for hours on end. As a matter of fact I played through all of CMI again last weekend after I heard the news of the MI-revival.
Ugh, keyboard and mouse. I can't see why Telltale can't just man up and admit that this was a mistake, it was an experiment in W&G that didn't work, but it was a learning experience and they can move on to fix something that actually needs changing. Why go and ruin it for Monkey Island of all things? It's like they're sacrificing one sacred cow with another.
There is nothing to complain about. EoMI had keyboard only controls, ToMI has keyboard+mouse controls. So, in a way, it is an improvement to the previous monkey island game.
I agree that mouse-only controls are the most player-friendly and most fun way to play adventure games (for PC players that is). And I am sure, Telltale knows this also. Though I am ok with their decision to make this game keyboard+mouse in order to make the game playable on consoles. It is still better than in the previous monkey island game.
There is nothing to complain about. EoMI had keyboard+pad controls, ToMI has keyboard+mouse controls.
Fixed. Does anybody know if W&G (and TOMI) are supposed to have a wider range of gamepads supported? Said it somewhere else, but my Hama pad ain't working with the W&G demo. There's certainly a workaround for buttons and keys, but I've never checked if there's one for analog sticks and mice too.
I don't know if anyone has said this yet but from what I can see its actually optimial between the keyboard or the mouse, if this is true then I think its brilliant. I think you can click to move some place or use the keyboard to get there. I can't be sure .
Wouldn't it be great if TTG took the control scheme from CMI but changed the inventory button to the middle button/scroll wheel on the mouse?
I do believe the inventory in W&G is probably the best inventory I've used in an adventure game in a long time.
Very handy and functional as far as scrolling through objects. But I'd much rather open the inventory with a right click than by clicking the middle wheel.
...On PC they may be a keyboard / mouse combo or may be entirely mouse driven. It won't be exactly the same as the point and click we did for Sam & Max, but will also not be exactly like our first direct control scheme in Wallace & Gromit... more like an evolution of what we started in W&G. We definitely want it to feel comfortable for people playing on PC, and to work well with the Monkey Island gameplay, so a lot of consideration is going into the decision!...
I do believe the inventory in W&G is probably the best inventory I've used in an adventure game in a long time.
Very handy and functional as far as scrolling through objects. But I'd much rather open the inventory with a right click than by clicking the middle wheel.
Ok so it's taken me 3 days but I have read all 22 pages.
My opinion:
I think Monkey Island should be point and click and I understand that there are some difficulties but I think it is ridiculous how TTG has given excuses for not having it and when someone has given a perfectly reasonable workaround they have either said well get used to it or stop whining.
Hypocrite or not I will be pre-ordering the whole series because it is Monkey Island and hae been considering buying Sam and Max as the demo is very impressive. However unless this control system is changed I will not be purchasing again in future.
Also dismissing the longest thread in the forum (at least that i've seen) complaining about the controls as a small minority of players is nonsense especially as many of the forum members make up the core fan-base of TTG and their opinions should be respected most of all.
I am also annoyed at staff making jokes in this forum instead of answering the questions.
You don't need to see my identification. I don't need to see your identification.
I'm not the pirate you're looking for. You're not the pirate I'm looking for.
I can go about my business. You can go about your business.
Move along.
You don't need to see my identification. I don't need to see your identification.
I'm not the pirate you're looking for. You're not the pirate I'm looking for.
I can go about my business. You can go about your business.
Move along.
... I think it is ridiculous how TTG has given excuses for not having it and when someone has given a perfectly reasonable workaround they have either said well get used to it or stop whining ...
Most of the workarounds suggested in these control threads don't actually work. The one that could work, we were already aware of but didn't have the resources to implement/maintain it side-by-side with keyboard control during W&G.
Also, I'm doing control-related work on MI for a short time. I can't talk about any features that are under development, but we'll see what happens!
There is nothing to complain about. EoMI had keyboard only controls, ToMI has keyboard+mouse controls. So, in a way, it is an improvement to the previous monkey island game.
EOMI being keyboard only meant no go for me and a lot of other players. Simply horrible, not enjoyable in the slightest. Keyboard + mouse, well we'll see but I think a lot of people would prefer mouse only, I guess at this stage a poll would be counteractive. There are things to complain and discuss about, maybe not for you.
Businesses live or die based on sales, not what percent of people complain about the game. A game might have nobody complaining about it but only sell 100 copies, or there may be a "lot of people complaining" about it but it sells 10,000 copies.
Therefore I will not buy the game for now, even though it is a spin of the holy "Monkey Island". (And yes, I am fully aware that this is just a drop in the bucket!) - Let's wait until the demo is out to check if the controls have significantly improved from what was done for W&G.
So far this game is sold by its name only, not by the story or its playability. - And I am really surprised how many people seem to blindly pre-order it, just based on its name and some cheap marketing gimmicks. (Well done, Telltale!)
So far this game is sold by its name only, not by the story or its playability. - And I am really surprised how many people seem to blindly pre-order it, just based on its name and some cheap marketing gimmicks. (Well done, Telltale!)
Maybe that's all you have to base your purchasing decision upon, but I've bought and played TTG's other titles, and I'm familiar with the works of the team members working on Tales of Monkey Island. Those are the things that influenced my decision to pre-order TMI. It's kind of like why people are freaking out of the special edition of SoMI because it's coming from LucasArts, even though I'm pretty sure anyone at that company that worked on their old adventure games are no longer working there. It's not the brand names and company names that count.. it's the team members' names.
I really don't care what the controls are. It's TTG and it's Monkey Island. That's all I need to know. I can usually get past bad controls. I don't really think the control scheme killed EMI. At least not by itself. EMI had a lot of problems with it that made it go under. The control scheme is just one of them and something everybody gravitated towards. Playing it with a gamepad is actually pretty easy and I enjoy it, somewhat.
I just hope that the keyboard controls in TMI will be customizable because I can't stand WASD. I rather use the numpad.
I want to pick up on a point made over on the W&G thread about it taking five to ten minutes to get used to the controls.
You will lose a whole load of customers in those five to ten minutes. If the interaction is hard to control, a lot of people will simply give up. Only the most persistent of fans are willing to plough on through the pain to get to the stories that we paid to experience, or indeed willing to pay to get them in the first place.
I believe this is a part of why Grim Fandango and Escape from Monkey Island didn't sell well, due to direct experiences, to word-of-mouth from other players, and to reviewers mentioning the controls in reviews. In turn those poor sales convinced management that there wasn't a market for adventure games, leading to the 'hole' that Cez described.
The feeling of immersion in adventure games is based on the story and the puzzles. It's not about first-hand control of the character, as is the case in shooter and platforming games. We're not seeing the game from the character's point of view, why make us control it from their POV? Indeed, that's where much of the disconnect lies - you have to put yourself into the character's position to work out how to 'drive' the character to their next destination. The exception is the few times, like in Sam & Max driving sequences or some of the mini-games, where we do experience the game from their POV. But that is an exception.
I haven't played W&G extensively. Guess why. I didn't read anything first before starting a game and was very, very confused for at least five minutes that I couldn't seem to solve the first puzzle as the required components weren't in the area I could explore with the mouse. Then I worked out that you'd added keyboard controls and my heart sank. I've fought through to getting outside the house but exploring is just such a pain.
I feel that Telltale are getting close to making the best of both worlds with the controls of Wallace & Gromit. I also feel that 3D adventure games came too soon and with them came control systems that were far from perfect and were damned annoying at times. I know what you mean about how some people were put off with the controls in Grim & Escape and that is probably the main reason for poor sales. However I feel that the controls would have felt a lot better if the camera wasn't fixed - that's were I felt most of my annoyance at controlling Manny or Guybrush, especially when the character was far away and was perspectively small which meant it was hard to see in which direction the character was facing.
But I think that the time is right now for 3D adventure games and I also think that a combination of keyboard & mouse is the best control we could have at this point in time. For me being able to properly control the protagonist of an adventure game through the game world is one of the most immersive things that a game can achieve and currently the most natural way for that is through the keyboard. And I feel Telltale have found the best way to implement it which is combined with a dynamically moving camera.
(off topic, why is it that I get my best ideas for posts at 5am after I've had numerous alcoholic drinks and as a consequence can't type very well!)
Comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s0JVcGK7pM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNUeDhRYDNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AT8qPanImk
As you can see, the game oozes atmosphere. The entire first half is purely adventure and puzzles. I'm not saying that this would work for Monkey Island, but for this game and the Awakened, it was a fantastic leap forward for adventure gaming. Too bad both are so little known the idea didn't take hold.
On a german QWERTZ keyboard steering in the minigames becomes a bit cumbersome due to this. You should use the key Y instead of Z or just move it one key to the right and use X and C unless you want people to practice some special Kung Fu.
Yep, better to provide a way to map your own keys, rather than pick just two schemes.
just wanted to say that I really like the controls of W&G. I hated the MI4 controls though, but were suprised by W&G how good keyboard and mouse can work together. After a minute it all worked intuitionally. Also wouldn't mind if it will be PnC, but really can't understand what is so difficult about the W&G controls.
It is obvious, that Monkey Island should have Banana controls
please make it just point n click
Mouse controls are totally unintuitive. The squeaking noises that the device makes is quite distracting and the mouse keeps running off the table when i loosen my grip.
However! Does any possibly improved version have to wait for a next series/season, or do you possibly have time to tweak it still? I understand you have deadlines to meet, and making big changes can be a challenge at this point (and there would have to be plan how to change it). However as unrealistic as it might be, I do hope you have time and some ideas how to tweak this further.
I must say that I wish there was a wide range of Gamepad support. At least mine doesn't seem to work. I hope it would for TOMI, as it's really a nice change to be allowed to sit back in your chair and play from there.
PS: The music was way too loud in that demo, at times it's hard to make heads and tails off the voice-overs. Sadly there's only a single volume setting that adjusts everything, from voice overs, the absolutely cool brass style music and bees' humming. But that's something for a different thread entirelly. I'll shut up now.
Access software had first person in their Tex Murphy series from -94. So it is not totally unique.
I was curious what TTG has come up with though, so I played through the WG demo yesterday and it just didn't feel right to me. Sam and Max feels much more natural. The switching of camera-angels (biggest reason for not implementing Point-and-click?) is actually rather annoying to me. Every couple of steps you walk through the garden you skip to a new angle.
And while the animation is absolutely fantastic in that game, the controls bother me so much that I wouldn't buy the game because it is simply not fun to play for me anymore and the reason I play games is to have fun.
I've seen people on this forum claim that graphics are not important and I've seen people on this forum claim that controls are not important. Yet, I've only even known two terms to describe these kind of adventure-games in the past: "Point and click adventures" and "Graphics Adventures". In my mind the graphics and controls are the defining elements of a good adventure game, along with a good story and plenty of jokes.
I also don't see why point-and-click wouldn't work. During the WG demo I often clicked on an empty area, hoping the character would walk over. It would have worked just as well (better even!) than guiding him there using the keyboard controls. On top of that, a double-click on any exit like CMI has, can really speed up the game. It's boring to have to wait for your character to reach the other end of the screen.
I already pre-ordered TMI to support the effort and I'm looking forward to its release. But I'm afraid it will be the same experience as EMI for me. The atmosphere and 'character' is out of the game because of the 3D graphics and the fun is out of it because of the cumbersome controls.
I could never make myself play EMI for more than half an hour and I never finished it while I could still play MI 1-3 for hours on end. As a matter of fact I played through all of CMI again last weekend after I heard the news of the MI-revival.
I agree that mouse-only controls are the most player-friendly and most fun way to play adventure games (for PC players that is). And I am sure, Telltale knows this also. Though I am ok with their decision to make this game keyboard+mouse in order to make the game playable on consoles. It is still better than in the previous monkey island game.
Just thought you all should know.
Fixed. Does anybody know if W&G (and TOMI) are supposed to have a wider range of gamepads supported? Said it somewhere else, but my Hama pad ain't working with the W&G demo. There's certainly a workaround for buttons and keys, but I've never checked if there's one for analog sticks and mice too.
Pretty pretty please, with sugar on the top?
I do believe the inventory in W&G is probably the best inventory I've used in an adventure game in a long time.
Very handy and functional as far as scrolling through objects. But I'd much rather open the inventory with a right click than by clicking the middle wheel.
Emily's post might be worth looking at here: http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8978
This reassurance was enough for me to place my pre-order.
Gotta test the demo for W&G if you recommend it.
My opinion:
I think Monkey Island should be point and click and I understand that there are some difficulties but I think it is ridiculous how TTG has given excuses for not having it and when someone has given a perfectly reasonable workaround they have either said well get used to it or stop whining.
Hypocrite or not I will be pre-ordering the whole series because it is Monkey Island and hae been considering buying Sam and Max as the demo is very impressive. However unless this control system is changed I will not be purchasing again in future.
Also dismissing the longest thread in the forum (at least that i've seen) complaining about the controls as a small minority of players is nonsense especially as many of the forum members make up the core fan-base of TTG and their opinions should be respected most of all.
I am also annoyed at staff making jokes in this forum instead of answering the questions.
Fwed1
Yes you will.
hah, playing mind games huh?
You don't need to see my identification.
I don't need to see your identification.
I'm not the pirate you're looking for.
You're not the pirate I'm looking for.
I can go about my business.
You can go about your business.
Move along.
Aw man! You got me.
Most of the workarounds suggested in these control threads don't actually work. The one that could work, we were already aware of but didn't have the resources to implement/maintain it side-by-side with keyboard control during W&G.
Also, I'm doing control-related work on MI for a short time. I can't talk about any features that are under development, but we'll see what happens!
EOMI being keyboard only meant no go for me and a lot of other players. Simply horrible, not enjoyable in the slightest. Keyboard + mouse, well we'll see but I think a lot of people would prefer mouse only, I guess at this stage a poll would be counteractive. There are things to complain and discuss about, maybe not for you.
Therefore I will not buy the game for now, even though it is a spin of the holy "Monkey Island". (And yes, I am fully aware that this is just a drop in the bucket!) - Let's wait until the demo is out to check if the controls have significantly improved from what was done for W&G.
So far this game is sold by its name only, not by the story or its playability. - And I am really surprised how many people seem to blindly pre-order it, just based on its name and some cheap marketing gimmicks. (Well done, Telltale!)
I just hope that the keyboard controls in TMI will be customizable because I can't stand WASD. I rather use the numpad.
You will lose a whole load of customers in those five to ten minutes. If the interaction is hard to control, a lot of people will simply give up. Only the most persistent of fans are willing to plough on through the pain to get to the stories that we paid to experience, or indeed willing to pay to get them in the first place.
I believe this is a part of why Grim Fandango and Escape from Monkey Island didn't sell well, due to direct experiences, to word-of-mouth from other players, and to reviewers mentioning the controls in reviews. In turn those poor sales convinced management that there wasn't a market for adventure games, leading to the 'hole' that Cez described.
The feeling of immersion in adventure games is based on the story and the puzzles. It's not about first-hand control of the character, as is the case in shooter and platforming games. We're not seeing the game from the character's point of view, why make us control it from their POV? Indeed, that's where much of the disconnect lies - you have to put yourself into the character's position to work out how to 'drive' the character to their next destination. The exception is the few times, like in Sam & Max driving sequences or some of the mini-games, where we do experience the game from their POV. But that is an exception.
I haven't played W&G extensively. Guess why. I didn't read anything first before starting a game and was very, very confused for at least five minutes that I couldn't seem to solve the first puzzle as the required components weren't in the area I could explore with the mouse. Then I worked out that you'd added keyboard controls and my heart sank. I've fought through to getting outside the house but exploring is just such a pain.
But I think that the time is right now for 3D adventure games and I also think that a combination of keyboard & mouse is the best control we could have at this point in time. For me being able to properly control the protagonist of an adventure game through the game world is one of the most immersive things that a game can achieve and currently the most natural way for that is through the keyboard. And I feel Telltale have found the best way to implement it which is combined with a dynamically moving camera.
(off topic, why is it that I get my best ideas for posts at 5am after I've had numerous alcoholic drinks and as a consequence can't type very well!)