I actually prefer the Sierra keyboard controls to these new ones. That made more sense as you actually needed the keyboard to type commands, anyway.
And also - no need to keep keys pressed down - they had an option that let you either do that *or* simply tap the key to start moving, and tap again to stop.
If this was an option in Telltale's games, I'd be much more happy with this system.
Why does TTG needs to expand and grow and up to which size? I mean at which point is it sufficient? What's TTG after? I understand that depending on your goals you need a certain size of a company and if you're smaller you just can't do certain kind of projects.
I guess that's something I cannot really answer as it's more a question for Dan or Kevin, but, generally speaking, any company wants to grow and be healthy. Growth means more resources, and it certainly means more opportunities --we can have better graphics, more options to external IPs (like Monkey Island), better tools that make up for better games at the end, etc. As a developer, you want to have the best resources possible, regardless of the genre or type of game, so it's a natural thing to happen.
Why does it need to be cinematic? Is this something TTG wants or is it something more the sales figures dictate? I mean from my personal perspective i don't have something against a cinematic presentation but i'm also completely fine without it as long as the presentation is nice, the story is good, the riddles are well done, ... i don't need an immersive 3d environment for enjoying an adventure game.
This comes with the ages. It's a two side perspective:
a) On one side you want to be as appealing as possible to the public. We want to expand the market, get more people to buy our games. This, in turn, is good for the adventure community, because it then becomes a more viable business and gets the genre out of the hole it has been in for the past 10 years or so.
b) From a developers perspective, the idea mostly came from working on W&G from what I understand, since it needed to be a lot more cinematic because of its nature. However, when you see the endless possibilities and immersion of what cinematic means, a designer gets in storytelling's heaven.
Designers, and especially at telltale, are storytellers, and a camera is one of the most powerful storytelling tools there exists. I talk here from personal experience, and again, going back to The Silver Lining, back in the day, when we went from 2D to 3D I wasn't sure it was going to work, because I somehow also used to be reluctant to change and I wanted my adventure games in 2D with point & click, the way they always had been. But when I saw the powerful storytelling possibilities of a 3D camera, I never wanted to go back.
Now, all in context, it's not completely true that Telltale has done this just for the money. You can't separate monetary resources from great technology and more possibilities. It's a natural process of wanting one thing to make the other thing better. That said, the designers of W&G tried a bunch of things before going with the keyboard. It wasn't a deliberate decision and one done just because we wanted to put this on the xbox and we didn't care about our PC audience.
I would find it very hard to control W&G with a mouse only, especially when you have a camera on close up not showing anywhere where you can walk. Then it would have become a frustrating "don't know where I can click to walk" experience. Tests were done, this wasn't deliberate. Some of the ideas here certainly could work, but again, creating two different projects, betatesting them, and getting them out the door with the pipeline and deadlines we have, right now is not possible.
And then I play the devil's advocate...
Is it really "just for the money" to want to be more appealing, so that you get a faster return of your investment, so that you can then do what Bioware did with Mass Effect and be able to put your games on different platform and make control schemes that fit each platform?
Is it really "just for the money" to want to make more money, to have more resources, to be able to make better and better games?
I'm still unsure of what the controls of Monkey Island will be. So far, I've been able to play it mostly with the mouse, although I actually prefer to move with the keyboard just because it's more natural. But then again, as I do updates of the game, I see more and more of this close up cameras, which really make the game more dramatic and exciting, so, this is a question for the designers, but rest assured, "THE MONKEYS ARE LISTENING" (to you)
RMJ1984 - TTG has just as much love for the game as you do. And if you think point and click is the way adventure games were meant to be, remember that most of Sierra's adventure games were controlled by keyboard alone. On second thought, that made them pretty tedious....but on the other hand with keyboard versus mouse you were less likely to fall of a cliff and die. Play Kings Quest 3 VGA to see what I mean.
You stole my thoughts, you scurvy dog. You're lucky that I don't make ye walk the plank. I would like to add, though, quite a few of the early SCI games allowed you to choose between the keyboard and mouse. In games such as Space Quest 3, I chose the keyboard simply because of the cliff scenario. If Telltale was to offer both options, that would be great, but likely costly on their part.
I am not one to complain, though. I will love TMI either way. I just felt like sharing.
It is what you make it to be. You'll find it to be perfectly fun and a perfect experience if you just move on and stop griping. I don't see what's so immersive about just the mouse, or what's so great about just the mouse. The game has the mouse for all other actions but walking. What's so IN DEPTH and amazing about walking with a mouse? I get TIRED of clicking over and over and over to move somewhere in an adventure game! MI fans are worse than Trekkies, I swear.
I'll say it again. YOU CONTROL ALL actions but walking with the mouse. That's what was shown in the recent interview with Mike Stemmle at E3.
As i already wrote in another posting i tried both options, keyboard+mouse and a Xbox360 controller. From these possibilities i prefer the controller because i don't play such games sitting at my desk in front of the screen, i'm more lying in a couch (much better problem solving position) at a slightly larger distance away from the screen.
Steering with a infrared/laser mouse is no problem at all as well as steering with a controller, except the controller drawbacks i also already wrote about, but dealing with a mouse and a keyboard whilst lying there simply doesn't work so i do not experience the benefits you're talking about.
Cez, I really appreciate your posts, very interesting. And I see how it could be too much to handle for a small company to try out several control systems.
How would you feel about the idea to let you select an option to simply tap a key to start moving, tap it again to stop? You've probably played old Sierra games so you know what I'm talking about
Sorry to ask so many questions now all of a sudden, but since the monkeys seem to be listening so well right now, I have to take advantage
My worry is that i can imagine telltale abandoning the pc market and moving exclusively to consoles where the big bucks is. Since they are more concerned about consoles. Don;t get me wrong, they'd be crazy not to but i am getting a strong sense of deja vu, makes me think of lucasarts.
As i already wrote in another posting i tried both options, keyboard+mouse and a Xbox360 controller. From these possibilities i prefer the controller because i don't play such games sitting at my desk in front of the screen, i'm more lying in a couch at a slightly larger distance away from the screen.
Steering with a infrared/laser mouse is no problem at all as well as steering with a controller, except the controller drawbacks i also already wrote about but dealing with a mouse and a keyboard whilst lying there simply doesn't work so i do not experience the benefits you're talking about.
Well, I can say I haven't done any in depth research to figure out which is truly better, as I consider them the same.
However, I do believe TTG has tried all the options as well, instead of just deciding off the bat they would go with keyboard control, and by July will have picked the most convenient.
Its just not fair to us, and that might sound cold, but i have no love for consoles what so ever, they are ruining gaming imo, because im most of the games now adays we get shafted, because ermm lets do a cheap port to pc.
Do you really thinks fans say this just to have fun or to be annoying, it really doesnt hurt to listen sometimes. Put the project on hold to 2010 if that what it takes.
Regarding your first paragraph, that's a very arguable point. Yes, it has all changed and PC is not the golden platform of gaming any longer, but, on the other hand, this is a time to cherish among us videogames developers, and we are in our prime and the industry overall has never been better, and it's all because of the accessibility and unification consoles offer --you don't have to worry about systems requirement at all anymore, people not knowing how to run games, install/uninstall, controls, etc, etc, etc.
Consoles, as of today, have made the industry what it is, something to take seriously, a blooming industry. In return, we get treated to Hollywood status and can make things we could never dream of 10-15 years ago before consoles started to take over.
regarding your second point, that is an utopia when you are talking about a business. It just doesn't work like that for what we need at Telltale from a business perspective. We want people to play our games! We have to balance both sides of the coin, so that we can continue making awesome projects that you guys can play and enjoy.
Monkey Island is happening because of Telltale's business decisions, not because of any control schemes. In that regard, I guess we should reconsider blaming companies that "do it all for the money" --It's never so black and white.
So, you just have to admit that Wallace & Gromit is the most cinematic game Telltale has ever made. I have never really seen any adventure game in the past that has this amount of close up cameras while you are traversing through the world. It's just amazing. The character is not always so far away, you get more personal with the characters, the camera work just immerses you in the game. It's really different! Now, there have been many ideas here about how to make it work with the mouse, and I'm sure they've been discussed here and tested, and they didn't work as well as trying the keyboard.
You know, the more I play Wallace & Gromit, the more I'm buying into the "cinematic" argument - I'm sure now these games wouldn't be the same with less "nosy" cameras, and I wonder what a presentation like this can do for Monkey Island.
However, it took me a lot of time and effort to get to this point, and I'm both a cinema buff in love with freaky camera angles and a fan of the Aardman series, so I imagine it takes even more time for most people to start experiencing the difference. Can't you do something to help accelerate this process? This is a new thing in the world of adventure games, and some well aimed "education" could do a world of good for both Telltale and us.
(...and of course, the same goes for the "immersion via direct control" topic)
The community of adventure gamers need to get on with the wave. It's a community that is always complaining about the lack of games, about bringing the classic backs. About how they wish Sierra and LucasArt games came back, and when they do, and developers try to adjust them to the current gen of videogames, then it seems as if a lot of people in the community all prefer that the game never happened in the first place.
Good point well made, although if you think adventure games fans complain too much, avoid the poor souls that hang on to the Amiga (which I count myself one of ).
I must confess I haven't read every comment here, or on the similarly themed threads on the W&G forum, so I realise this may well have been suggested before. Heck, it's probably been tried already by you guys, but how about a control scheme where you can hold the left mouse button/'A' Wii remote button down to make the character walk i.e. hold down the button in front of the character to make them walk forward, behind them to turn around, above to head towards the top of the screen and bellow to the bottom etc. the further away you hold it from the character the faster they more in that direction. Sadly I can't pull a specific example out of the air, but I'm fairly certain I've played games on the DS and Wii that control this way (Possibly Final Fantasy III and/or IV on DS and Endless Ocean on Wii, but I could be making that up). Such a control scheme would not need the user to see the ground in order to move.
Another system that I'd wholeheartedly recommend looking into is the DS version of Broken Sword; essentially giving the user hotspots to click on so you rarely even have to click, or rather tap on the ground.
One other thing I'd like to pick up on is adjusting games to current gen. It's tempting to argue 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it', however if that were the case we probably wouldn't have the iPhone however I would like to point some attention to a game such as Mega Man 9 and it's reception compared to, for arguments sake, Mega Man X7 (There is probably a better example, but I don't really know my Mega Man games too well). Sometimes it's worth sticking to a games roots. Especially one born of the SCUMM system which, if I recall reading correctly, was designed with simple controls as a primary goal.
But this is a mere detail, if it's enough to put anyone off playing it's not a game for them. I confess that part of my not playing W&G is partially due to the control system, however there were many other factors in me deciding it wasn't a game for me (basically, the W&G franchise isn't enough to entice me to boot into Windows or buy an Xbox - however if it comes to the Mac, PSP, iPhone or Wii, who knows...). But, as Cez pointed out, this is a brand new Monkey Island game, for this we can be thankful and celebrate! Not to mention it being in safer hands then it would have been as a LucasArts in-house project.
The final point I'd like to make is that I realise one argument for the control system is that it allows a more cinematic approach to graphics (but let us not forget, so did the interactive movie), from a control perspective, it seems (at least from this outside perspective) that the controls are best suited to the consoles the game is not being designed for. This what I have trouble understanding, having done my degree in Multimedia I have always been taught to design to the medium you are creating for, and to me, the PC and Wii both seem to cater best to a cursor driven interface.
But hey, that is my personal opinion - I trust the folks at Telltale to make great games and they've yet to disappoint me. Keep up the great work!
Can't you do something to help accelerate this process? This is a new thing in the world of adventure games, and some well aimed "education" could do a world of good for both Telltale and us.
My favorite example so far is the whole interrogation sequence in W&G 102. Not only did direct control allow our choreographers to do some amazing work in that environment, but it also allowed us to use a creative camera angle to put more characters in the environment than would otherwise be possible on the Xbox 360 and average PC hardware.
The paddle and whirlpool mini-games in 102 is also wouldn't have felt quite the same with point and click.
There are a few more really great examples coming up in WG 103 and 104 I think you guys will enjoy.
I always enjoyed the point and click system of the 3 first installations of this series, and I especially enjoyed the quick-action-menu of the third installation.
I felt that Escape of MI was a step back compared to Curse of MI in terms of playability, and the quick-time events made it even more tedious.
...but, I guess, as long as there are the same funny dialogues and monologues, I probably will enjoy the game regardless of the control scheme.
@Cez
My experience showed that non braked growth isn't a good thing either. It's much better defining reasonable goals and at some point maybe trying to stay at a well balanced size were things and people still feel comfortable. Quality wise a tiny, hey not too tiny of course, but fine hole can produce a better output as well. Some people even calculate the existance of something they call wormholes. Could be mighty, depending on the scale. ;O) But enough of such platitudes.
I understand your motivation enlarging the audience but let me name an example here. In my opinion with Monkey Island it's really the right time for something less casual because just getting more and more people on board and introducing them once again to the genre doesn't automatically cut it for those who were introduced to adventures since the very beginning. It also needs more depth for the veterans with some reasonable difficulty setting menachism in the games so that less experienced people also can enjoy it and/or several series, some focusing on the more casual gamers and others focusing more on the more experienced gamers as otherwise you'll run into the same critics over and over again.
I agree that the camera is a very powerful part of a 3d environment and it should be used but it's just that people somehow seem to forget that a certain level of abstraction is welcome as well and that steering in a 3d environment mostly isn't as enjoyful as in real due to the limitations nowadays widely spread input options offer, same goes for the orientation. We'll see how new technologies like for instance Microsofts new baby can offer here. Anyway i'm doing 3d since years so i'm fine with it, i just wanted to say that it's also not a must. I rather play something like geoDefense on the iPodTouch than some console 3DJump&Run. Actually as i'm talking about it beside of a few exceptions like Super Mario World or Psychonauts, most 2D and 2.5D Jump&Runs still beat their 3D counterparts as they can concetrate on the core mechanics and offer a more simplified to the point gameplay. But i don't want to turn this into a does 3d make sense discussion. Actually i could imagine some really great 3d exploring scenes with a camera the player is able to steer free to a certain degree with some help depending on the scene as well.
As it's late here let me just end with hoping for the best for TTG's Monkey Island, spreading the word not the disk and i hope you don't mind if i still keep the mouse in my gaming/developer heart, although as i wrote before i see room for improvement for both options. It really would have been interesting doing research on those scenes you find diffcult to use the mouse in.
Thanks again for taking the time for responding in such an open and friendly way.
@Yare
Actually the whirpool scene was one of those scenes i really had problems with because it took it's time setting up the focus on a) which item you wanted to use, b) where do you want to use it on and c) getting this all done in time before these settings got reseted because the selection options got out of sight once more.
Just a question for the PC gamers in this thread, don't any of you own a console? I never thought playing an adventure game on a console would be great but playing Wallace & Gromit with the xbox controller was surprisingly good. It's easy to move around and select things. Also being on a console you can play the game on a big TV in the comfort of your couch. I don't particularly want to play a game on my PC with a keyboard so I'll be getting the console versions. It's a genuine alternative.
OK, it took me days, but I finally got through all 15 pages of this thread....
Something you have to keep in mind here, and the reason why so many people are so emotional about this, is that news of a new Monkey Island is going to first attract people who played the old series and loved it, and want to play more of the same. And we know you could make something that looked and felt the same if you really wanted to.
However, the new control methods and views introduce a level of uncertainty. Sure, TellTale has a good track record with its other games so far, but is this really going to feel like a Monkey Island game when it looks and acts different?
Speaking for myself only, I would have bought the season already if it promised graphics on par with the original Maniac Mansion, because I play these games for the puzzles and funny events, not because they look nice. Furthermore, I just filled up my car with gas today, and it cost more than the entire Monkey Island season, meaning if your games are addictive enough to keep me off the road, they'll pay for themselves!
Despite that, with that level of uncertainty surrounding the controls, I can't bring myself to pre-order. I'm going to wait until at least a few episodes are out, maybe until the DVD is available, and see what others think of them once the real games are here. Yes, I know I'll miss out on the special exclusive DVD cover, oh well.
I appreciate all of the comments that everyone has posted here, good and bad. Please keep posting comments when the games have been released. They'll help me come to a decision.
Just a question for the PC gamers in this thread, don't any of you own a console? I never thought playing an adventure game on a console would be great but playing Wallace & Gromit with the xbox controller was surprisingly good. It's easy to move around and select things. Also being on a console you can play the game on a big TV in the comfort of your couch. I don't particularly won't to play a game on my PC with a keyboard so I'll be getting the console versions. It's a genuine alternative.
I own a lot of consoles, just none that will play Telltales Games. I always stay behind a generation because I can't see the sense in paying more than a 100 dollars for a system. If they'd like to port it to the XBox or the Atari 2600, we might be in business.
Hey, there's a bright side, at least we don't have to control the game with the 2600 joystick and one button. Although, come to think of it, you could have played the Sam and Max games that way.
Our complaint on the controls is not that we are mouse/P&C lovers and refuse to try anything else. Well I suppose some users are. The issue is the new controls are awkward and need further refining.
With the current control scheme, keyboard movement is a PITA and not at all immersive. Joystick movement is great. I would love to use a joystick, BUT then I have the problem of selecting items to interact with. Toggling through all on-screen items looses the immersive experience that this new control scheme is supposed to bring. I would not mind having to walk up to objects and the player gives a knowing glance to the nearby object, but that does not work well in W&G. If that was fixed then the new controls would be playable with a joystick. Right now it is not.
The current best way is to have a joystick in one hand to move and the mouse in the other to select items. Which I can't bring myself to do.
But us complainers still feel there are other avenues that have not been explored. I hold out no hope for real P&C movement. That is not compatible with the consoles and would be extra work on TTG's part. Still there are plenty of ways to map mouse movement directly to the current movement controls that would be very little work on TTG's part. These have been stated plenty of times but TTG says they are awkward. IMHO they can't be any more awkward then the current controls.
So yes, my mentioning this makes me an ungrateful S.O.A.B. who has bought/pre-ordered every game.
I will try to add some of the other movement methods mentioned here to my mouse movement script next week. Unfortunately because this script runs outside of the game and has no knowledge of what the game is doing, it will never be a perfect soloution.
Just a question for the PC gamers in this thread, don't any of you own a console? I never thought playing an adventure game on a console would be great but playing Wallace & Gromit with the xbox controller was surprisingly good. It's easy to move around and select things. Also being on a console you can play the game on a big TV in the comfort of your couch. I don't particularly won't to play a game on my PC with a keyboard so I'll be getting the console versions. It's a genuine alternative.
We bought our first console at Christmas, a wii. And I will be buying these TMI episodes on Wiiware - nunchuck thumbstick to move, wiimote to point and click (I assume). It should work a treat. Also it keeps the kids out of my offic e and in the lounge when I'm trying to work, and the wife is much more likely to play if it's on the Wii, we don't tend to play Adventure Games together huddled round the PC like we used to before the kids were born (due to time, tiredness, family duties, work etc).
I will probably buy MI on PC too, but so long as the Wiiware releases in PAL territories are close by the PC release, I may reconsider (though I do feel left out not having access to the private forum, just not sure it's worth $35 at this point) I just wish you could pre-order the Wii episodes by purchasing Wiiware points or something direct from this site.
I will try to add some of the other movement methods mentioned here to my mouse movement script. Unfortunately because this script runs outside of the game and has no knowledge of what the game is doing, it will never be a perfect soloution.
Your script is a godsend to me! I can't enjoy the games without it, I was forced to use a joystick and the mouse, as you mentioned here... which was more of a chore than it was fun.
Being able to fully control W&G with the mouse is fantastic, and I really hope you manage to get something like that working for the MI episodes as well!
Thanks a lot!
I'm still unsure of what the controls of Monkey Island will be. So far, I've been able to play it mostly with the mouse, although I actually prefer to move with the keyboard just because it's more natural.
Does that mean if you want you can somehow move the character with the mouse in most situations ?
My favorite example so far is the whole interrogation sequence in W&G 102. Not only did direct control allow our choreographers to do some amazing work in that environment, but it also allowed us to use a creative camera angle to put more characters in the environment than would otherwise be possible on the Xbox 360 and average PC hardware.
Thanks for the response, although I meant something more visual - like a video or even a playable sketch. I dunno, I'm sure you guys would have like 100 ideas in half an hour
About the interrogation scene, it was the only one where the value of creative cameras clicked with me instantly - loved it. Interesting note on the # of characters - I didn't catch that one, although it's kinda obvious.
The paddle and whirlpool mini-games in 102 is also wouldn't have felt quite the same with point and click.
The action minigames are obviously better off with direct control (although I could imagine the opening sequence with mouse) - what's difficult for me is to get my mind around the immersion value of direct control while exploring. It worked very well in Dreamfall (even though that control scheme was far from perfect), but I somehow don't feel the added value in W&G. 's why I'm looking for help.
Cez, thank you for posting. You're starting to win me over. I may not like keyboard controls, however "we can't afford/it's not feasible to do both" is, as much as it may be unfortunate, a reasonable justification. I just hope it works better than W&G. Can I make a request that will probably take very little to implement, but will give a better experience to some? Hear me out, this should be very simple, and those who don't like it can turn it off.
Character-relative controls, where W walks in the direction the character is facing, A turns left, D turns right, and (if you can afford to throw in the time for the walk cycle) S for backwards. Should be easy to put in place, and some people would find that works better for them.
At least this way we get some choice over control method, even if we don't get mouse support.
Cez, thank you for posting. You're starting to win me over. I may not like keyboard controls, however "we can't afford/it's not feasible to do both" is, as much as it may be unfortunate, a reasonable justification. I just hope it works better than W&G. Can I make a request that will probably take very little to implement, but will give a better experience to some? Hear me out, this should be very simple, and those who don't like it can turn it off.
Character-relative controls, where W walks in the direction the character is facing, A turns left, D turns right, and (if you can afford to throw in the time for the walk cycle) S for backwards. Should be easy to put in place, and some people would find that works better for them.
At least this way we get some choice over control method, even if we don't get mouse support.
Actually now that I have seen the first real gameplay videos of TMI I think there is no way back to pure point and click. The videos gamespot have show a very dynamic visualisation with zooms and scrolls everywhere, sort of like a movie. However I personally think while I dont mind the new controls even in the new scheme a mouse only option still would be possible!
My personal guess is while it does not really show that much in Wallace and Grommit, the Monkey Island videos really do the new control method justice. If you want to check it out http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/talesofmonkeyisland/index.html?tag=result;title;2
Anyway there is a big spoiler alert, but check out the stage demo and you will see what I mean!
But for most of the video the floor was clearly visible so I dont really get what would make it so hard to implement mouse click movement. Actually its looking like a normal adventure game with a frozen cursor
"we can't afford/it's not feasible to do both" is, as much as it may be unfortunate, a reasonable justification. I just hope it works better than W&G.
The great thing about putting out games so fast is that we can adapt and evolve at each step. W&G was only able to take direct control so far with the time and resources we had, but MI can take that system and spend their time and resources on taking it farther. And the games after MI will take it farther than MI will.
"If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of those who came before me." -Isaac Newton
Count me in as someone else who would like the choice between camera-relative and character-relative controls. That worked well enough in Grim Fandango and I'd like to see it in TMI.
Our complaint on the controls is not that we are mouse/P&C lovers and refuse to try anything else. Well I suppose some users are. The issue is the new controls are awkward and need further refining.
then i suggest we all just take a break from this thread and come back when the demo is out. we've heard everything everyone is saying. if people have complaints once they've played the game, then i think we can have a better discussion. right now its hard for me to read through this because some of you might change your mind once you play it.
The great thing about putting out games so fast is that we can adapt and evolve at each step. W&G was only able to take direct control so far with the time and resources we had, but MI can take that system and spend their time and resources on taking it farther. And the games after MI will take it farther than MI will.
This is what I'm looking forward to. The possibilities are most intriguing if this catches on. Seeing adventures in the limelight by more than just adventure fans is a very attractive prospect.
Before i forget it, as for the Xbox360 controller:
What speaks against using the left analog joystick for movement (as it is right now), the right analog joystick for mouse like free exploration instead of huddling through the fixed visible options and instead moving this to the left digital joystick and again moving this ones functionality (huddling through the inventory and objects lists) on LB and LT (inventory) and on RB and RT (objects) whilst the buttons A,B,X,Y keep their functionality?
Before i forget it, as for the Xbox360 controller:
What speaks against using the left analog joystick for movement (as it is right now), the right analog joystick for mouse like free exploration instead of huddling through the fixed visible options and instead moving this to the left digital joystick and again moving this ones functionality (huddling through the inventory and objects lists) on LB and LT (inventory) and on RB and RT (objects) whilst the buttons A,B,X,Y keep their functionality?
Well lets say it simple, cursor movement with a stick simply sucks compared to a mouse, I personally think the hotspot system is ok regarding the gamepad.
If you dont trust me, try one of the old Lucasarts Adventure games which were designed with a joystick in mind and try to play it without a mouse but with some kind of joystick!
Every time you have to move the cursor with a stick you want to throw it against the wall literally.
A mouse back then really helped to remove that problem!
The best control schemes regarding 3d and gamepads I have seen so far were left control stick movement, right control stick camera adjustment, the rest doing anything else. If you dont have a free floating camera you can do whatever you want with the right stick, but you have to bear in mind, that every action with a stick is less precise than mouse pointing and movement takes longer!
Despite the fact the gamepad is far superior for controlling third person views than any mouse keyboard combo is, simply because you get additional movement axes which feel quite natural!
Hi to all!!!!
I'm happy to write in this forum, because developers read it!
And i'm happy of the new Monkey Island!
Talltale is the new Lucasarts - that's sure - you did a great job, guys!!!!! You are the only team that can do a new chapter of Monkey Island imho!
I like the new Monkey Island, it will be very fun! I like the visual style, really don't know why many people aren't happy with it. It's a "different" style for sure, but we'll get used to it: I remember that many years ago when the first screenshots of Curse of Monkey Island came out we also said that the style was ugly and that Guybrush was horrible - but now we say that visually it's the best game!
Now my complains about the control scheme.
Here i got some.
The problem it's not about cinematic. It's not about the numbers of key pressed. It's not about the player being "old school".
The problem are: beers, cigarettes and my chair.
Now I explain myself.
MI is an adventure game and it's not an action game.
So i wanna relax my nerves, not being in tension, just the game, my PC and my brain.
Maybe i wanna smoke a cigarette. With the MI1, MI2, CMI I had the mouse in my right hand and a cigarette in the other. Or a beer. Or a snack. Or sometimes i pulled down my chair and played half laid down and pop corns in my left hand and Guybrush on the other.... I felt very relaxed. How many of you smoked a cigarette while playing adventures?
Now i can't do that if you put this damn keyboard in my left hand!
Really, that's the real problem. I just don't feel relaxed - I tried Wallace & Gromit. I laid down on my chair, but sometimes i had to stand up again to press the keyboard to change locations. It bothered me. So i started to "hating" changing location. And I cannot have a cigarette because i have to use the key - but i almost solved by changing the way I press the key (i press LEFT with my pinky and RIGHT with my thumb, the ring finger for other keys and the remaining fingers to hold the cigarette). I cannot eat anything or i'll dirt my keyboard with mi fingers full of oil, salt or pizza!
Do u think I'm crazy? Maybe. But *these kind* of games has to relax. That's why many people hate action mini games in an adventure game. To play Doom i prefer the keyboard and the mouse, there's no time to lay down on your chair or to smoke a cigarette, because u have to be quick.
In the end you can try to think Doom as Heavy Metal, and Monkey Island as Classical Music: you can go to an Heavy Metal concert and stand up all the time jumping and screaming. But would you do the same in a Classical Music concert? I think not. Why? Because they are different genre, and the way you approach it will ever be different.
Tales of Monkey Island with keyboard is like to go to Opera in a theatre without seats: surely it will be a great piece of music, but u have to stand up all the time.
Said this I think that now is too late to make changes to the control system.
But don't feel sad: the game will surely be great!!! I'm sure!!! Fun, pirates and islands!
Thank you so much, Telltale, of this gift of a new Monkey Island after all these years. I deserve you the best wishes for this project, that I hope will be the first of a long series!
Tales of Monkey Island with keyboard is like to go to Opera in a theatre without seats: surely it will be a great piece of music, but u have to stand up all the time.
@werpu
Beeing able to select between the hotspots in a more fluent analog way could give you back some more freedom for exploration. I guess it comes down to how it's accelerated.
Beside of that the fixed hotspot selection feels too restricted to me i also sometimes had problems that the order in which i can steer between them wasn't this intuitive. For instance i remember that in W&G101 i had problems getting the hotspot for the badger and so run into problems because i thought he isn't an option at all although i first had the right idea. As it's now depending on the scene you really need to use the overlay representation in order not to miss something and even then the hotspot areas aren't always presented this clearly.
Actually, while WSAD aren't comfortable for one-handed gaming, if we have free reign to remap the controls I can see this working. Arrow keys for movement, and mouse for interacting with the environment and interface. Not as good as mouse only, but it would still be possible to do without being too challenging. Remapable controls and character relative controls, are they potential options?
BTW I got an idea. Why don't make the main character moving mainly by itself where he wants? Do u think I'm mad? I talk seriously. In fact there is no real need to move a character in a MI style of game (except few cases).
Think about a scene where you have to pick a flower from a garden, played in a classic way through a mouse: what do you do to pick up the flower? You click on it, it's obvious! The less obvious way is that you click on the ground near the flower, wait that the character reachs the flower and only then click on the flower to take it. This is nonsense because the character usually goes by itself to take it.
Think about it, in many games the character moves mostly by itself: u click on the flower and he goes to take the flower.
Listen to this:
Do you know RTS? Red Alert?
Well, to move your camera in those games you have to put your mouse on the edge of the screen.
Now, imagine it on an adventure game: you put the mouse on the right edge of the screen and the charachter starts moving in that direction, the camera follows him and scrolls till the end of the location. When the location ends the charachter stops walking. Is'nt it beautiful? No click involved!!!!
"I would find it very hard to control W&G with a mouse only, especially when you have a camera on close up not showing anywhere where you can walk. Then it would have become a frustrating "don't know where I can click to walk" experience."
The problem was solved because u don't have to click on the ground!!!!
The character automatically knows where to go!!! You only "hinted" right or left!!! Or maybe up and down!!!
In the end it is: TO USE THE EDGE OF THE SCREEN TO SCROLL A LOCATION AND MAKING THE CHARACTER MOVING AUTOMATICALLY IN THAT DIRECTION!!! LIKE AN RTS!!!!
Telltale, please think about it!
Just hoping to be helpful!!!
One more note: It's really insane how much time i'm spending here lately but well it's MI and honestly i do care. Can't spend a lot more on it right now but at least i fired up a few relevant games to get a better and fresh overall feeling.
How you steer a game really alters the way the game feels and somehow even seems to influence how you're solving things. Direct steering via a controller turns it slightly more into the action direction and an indirect mouse in a more traditional sense feels more relaxed.
Whilst still thinking that you can tweak quite a lot of things with a mouse steering i'm more and more open to the controller approach. What i still don't like is the combination of both keyboard and mouse. My main problem with the controller is the hotspot selection. It just would be fantastic if this could be optimised, preferable by an analog approach like i wrote above or at least by tweaking the already existing solution. At best offering both options as in the settings. Keeping the things which Cez said in mind and beeing one month away from the release i meanwhile prefer a tested and tweaked controller approach over a mouse solution which probably also has to mature up first.
The great thing about putting out games so fast is that we can adapt and evolve at each step. W&G was only able to take direct control so far with the time and resources we had, but MI can take that system and spend their time and resources on taking it farther. And the games after MI will take it farther than MI will.
In other words, you don't care whether we like the controls or not, you will continue to use them anyway... thanks.
then i suggest we all just take a break from this thread and come back when the demo is out. we've heard everything everyone is saying. if people have complaints once they've played the game, then i think we can have a better discussion. right now its hard for me to read through this because some of you might change your mind once you play it.
No we can't take a break, I bought W&G although I didn't like the controls, after paying and playing I really hate them... I will buy TMI, although I'm certain that I won't like the controls either. But if we don't complain now, you will use those controls for the next two game seasons and that's where you can get in trouble. Can you really afford to lose customers for 2 whole game seasons just because you didn't listen? Because I will not give you another chance after TMI to convince me.
Comments
And also - no need to keep keys pressed down - they had an option that let you either do that *or* simply tap the key to start moving, and tap again to stop.
If this was an option in Telltale's games, I'd be much more happy with this system.
I guess that's something I cannot really answer as it's more a question for Dan or Kevin, but, generally speaking, any company wants to grow and be healthy. Growth means more resources, and it certainly means more opportunities --we can have better graphics, more options to external IPs (like Monkey Island), better tools that make up for better games at the end, etc. As a developer, you want to have the best resources possible, regardless of the genre or type of game, so it's a natural thing to happen.
This comes with the ages. It's a two side perspective:
a) On one side you want to be as appealing as possible to the public. We want to expand the market, get more people to buy our games. This, in turn, is good for the adventure community, because it then becomes a more viable business and gets the genre out of the hole it has been in for the past 10 years or so.
b) From a developers perspective, the idea mostly came from working on W&G from what I understand, since it needed to be a lot more cinematic because of its nature. However, when you see the endless possibilities and immersion of what cinematic means, a designer gets in storytelling's heaven.
Designers, and especially at telltale, are storytellers, and a camera is one of the most powerful storytelling tools there exists. I talk here from personal experience, and again, going back to The Silver Lining, back in the day, when we went from 2D to 3D I wasn't sure it was going to work, because I somehow also used to be reluctant to change and I wanted my adventure games in 2D with point & click, the way they always had been. But when I saw the powerful storytelling possibilities of a 3D camera, I never wanted to go back.
Now, all in context, it's not completely true that Telltale has done this just for the money. You can't separate monetary resources from great technology and more possibilities. It's a natural process of wanting one thing to make the other thing better. That said, the designers of W&G tried a bunch of things before going with the keyboard. It wasn't a deliberate decision and one done just because we wanted to put this on the xbox and we didn't care about our PC audience.
I would find it very hard to control W&G with a mouse only, especially when you have a camera on close up not showing anywhere where you can walk. Then it would have become a frustrating "don't know where I can click to walk" experience. Tests were done, this wasn't deliberate. Some of the ideas here certainly could work, but again, creating two different projects, betatesting them, and getting them out the door with the pipeline and deadlines we have, right now is not possible.
And then I play the devil's advocate...
Is it really "just for the money" to want to be more appealing, so that you get a faster return of your investment, so that you can then do what Bioware did with Mass Effect and be able to put your games on different platform and make control schemes that fit each platform?
Is it really "just for the money" to want to make more money, to have more resources, to be able to make better and better games?
I'm still unsure of what the controls of Monkey Island will be. So far, I've been able to play it mostly with the mouse, although I actually prefer to move with the keyboard just because it's more natural. But then again, as I do updates of the game, I see more and more of this close up cameras, which really make the game more dramatic and exciting, so, this is a question for the designers, but rest assured, "THE MONKEYS ARE LISTENING" (to you)
I am not one to complain, though. I will love TMI either way. I just felt like sharing.
As i already wrote in another posting i tried both options, keyboard+mouse and a Xbox360 controller. From these possibilities i prefer the controller because i don't play such games sitting at my desk in front of the screen, i'm more lying in a couch (much better problem solving position) at a slightly larger distance away from the screen.
Steering with a infrared/laser mouse is no problem at all as well as steering with a controller, except the controller drawbacks i also already wrote about, but dealing with a mouse and a keyboard whilst lying there simply doesn't work so i do not experience the benefits you're talking about.
How would you feel about the idea to let you select an option to simply tap a key to start moving, tap it again to stop? You've probably played old Sierra games so you know what I'm talking about
Sorry to ask so many questions now all of a sudden, but since the monkeys seem to be listening so well right now, I have to take advantage
Well, I can say I haven't done any in depth research to figure out which is truly better, as I consider them the same.
However, I do believe TTG has tried all the options as well, instead of just deciding off the bat they would go with keyboard control, and by July will have picked the most convenient.
Regarding your first paragraph, that's a very arguable point. Yes, it has all changed and PC is not the golden platform of gaming any longer, but, on the other hand, this is a time to cherish among us videogames developers, and we are in our prime and the industry overall has never been better, and it's all because of the accessibility and unification consoles offer --you don't have to worry about systems requirement at all anymore, people not knowing how to run games, install/uninstall, controls, etc, etc, etc.
Consoles, as of today, have made the industry what it is, something to take seriously, a blooming industry. In return, we get treated to Hollywood status and can make things we could never dream of 10-15 years ago before consoles started to take over.
regarding your second point, that is an utopia when you are talking about a business. It just doesn't work like that for what we need at Telltale from a business perspective. We want people to play our games! We have to balance both sides of the coin, so that we can continue making awesome projects that you guys can play and enjoy.
Monkey Island is happening because of Telltale's business decisions, not because of any control schemes. In that regard, I guess we should reconsider blaming companies that "do it all for the money" --It's never so black and white.
You know, the more I play Wallace & Gromit, the more I'm buying into the "cinematic" argument - I'm sure now these games wouldn't be the same with less "nosy" cameras, and I wonder what a presentation like this can do for Monkey Island.
However, it took me a lot of time and effort to get to this point, and I'm both a cinema buff in love with freaky camera angles and a fan of the Aardman series, so I imagine it takes even more time for most people to start experiencing the difference. Can't you do something to help accelerate this process? This is a new thing in the world of adventure games, and some well aimed "education" could do a world of good for both Telltale and us.
(...and of course, the same goes for the "immersion via direct control" topic)
Good point well made, although if you think adventure games fans complain too much, avoid the poor souls that hang on to the Amiga (which I count myself one of
I must confess I haven't read every comment here, or on the similarly themed threads on the W&G forum, so I realise this may well have been suggested before. Heck, it's probably been tried already by you guys, but how about a control scheme where you can hold the left mouse button/'A' Wii remote button down to make the character walk i.e. hold down the button in front of the character to make them walk forward, behind them to turn around, above to head towards the top of the screen and bellow to the bottom etc. the further away you hold it from the character the faster they more in that direction. Sadly I can't pull a specific example out of the air, but I'm fairly certain I've played games on the DS and Wii that control this way (Possibly Final Fantasy III and/or IV on DS and Endless Ocean on Wii, but I could be making that up). Such a control scheme would not need the user to see the ground in order to move.
Another system that I'd wholeheartedly recommend looking into is the DS version of Broken Sword; essentially giving the user hotspots to click on so you rarely even have to click, or rather tap on the ground.
One other thing I'd like to pick up on is adjusting games to current gen. It's tempting to argue 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it', however if that were the case we probably wouldn't have the iPhone
But this is a mere detail, if it's enough to put anyone off playing it's not a game for them. I confess that part of my not playing W&G is partially due to the control system, however there were many other factors in me deciding it wasn't a game for me (basically, the W&G franchise isn't enough to entice me to boot into Windows or buy an Xbox - however if it comes to the Mac, PSP, iPhone or Wii, who knows...). But, as Cez pointed out, this is a brand new Monkey Island game, for this we can be thankful and celebrate!
The final point I'd like to make is that I realise one argument for the control system is that it allows a more cinematic approach to graphics (but let us not forget, so did the interactive movie), from a control perspective, it seems (at least from this outside perspective) that the controls are best suited to the consoles the game is not being designed for. This what I have trouble understanding, having done my degree in Multimedia I have always been taught to design to the medium you are creating for, and to me, the PC and Wii both seem to cater best to a cursor driven interface.
But hey, that is my personal opinion - I trust the folks at Telltale to make great games and they've yet to disappoint me. Keep up the great work!
My favorite example so far is the whole interrogation sequence in W&G 102. Not only did direct control allow our choreographers to do some amazing work in that environment, but it also allowed us to use a creative camera angle to put more characters in the environment than would otherwise be possible on the Xbox 360 and average PC hardware.
The paddle and whirlpool mini-games in 102 is also wouldn't have felt quite the same with point and click.
There are a few more really great examples coming up in WG 103 and 104 I think you guys will enjoy.
I felt that Escape of MI was a step back compared to Curse of MI in terms of playability, and the quick-time events made it even more tedious.
...but, I guess, as long as there are the same funny dialogues and monologues, I probably will enjoy the game regardless of the control scheme.
My experience showed that non braked growth isn't a good thing either. It's much better defining reasonable goals and at some point maybe trying to stay at a well balanced size were things and people still feel comfortable. Quality wise a tiny, hey not too tiny of course, but fine hole can produce a better output as well. Some people even calculate the existance of something they call wormholes. Could be mighty, depending on the scale. ;O) But enough of such platitudes.
I understand your motivation enlarging the audience but let me name an example here. In my opinion with Monkey Island it's really the right time for something less casual because just getting more and more people on board and introducing them once again to the genre doesn't automatically cut it for those who were introduced to adventures since the very beginning. It also needs more depth for the veterans with some reasonable difficulty setting menachism in the games so that less experienced people also can enjoy it and/or several series, some focusing on the more casual gamers and others focusing more on the more experienced gamers as otherwise you'll run into the same critics over and over again.
I agree that the camera is a very powerful part of a 3d environment and it should be used but it's just that people somehow seem to forget that a certain level of abstraction is welcome as well and that steering in a 3d environment mostly isn't as enjoyful as in real due to the limitations nowadays widely spread input options offer, same goes for the orientation. We'll see how new technologies like for instance Microsofts new baby can offer here. Anyway i'm doing 3d since years so i'm fine with it, i just wanted to say that it's also not a must. I rather play something like geoDefense on the iPodTouch than some console 3DJump&Run. Actually as i'm talking about it beside of a few exceptions like Super Mario World or Psychonauts, most 2D and 2.5D Jump&Runs still beat their 3D counterparts as they can concetrate on the core mechanics and offer a more simplified to the point gameplay. But i don't want to turn this into a does 3d make sense discussion. Actually i could imagine some really great 3d exploring scenes with a camera the player is able to steer free to a certain degree with some help depending on the scene as well.
As it's late here let me just end with hoping for the best for TTG's Monkey Island, spreading the word not the disk and i hope you don't mind if i still keep the mouse in my gaming/developer heart, although as i wrote before i see room for improvement for both options. It really would have been interesting doing research on those scenes you find diffcult to use the mouse in.
Thanks again for taking the time for responding in such an open and friendly way.
@Yare
Actually the whirpool scene was one of those scenes i really had problems with because it took it's time setting up the focus on a) which item you wanted to use, b) where do you want to use it on and c) getting this all done in time before these settings got reseted because the selection options got out of sight once more.
Something you have to keep in mind here, and the reason why so many people are so emotional about this, is that news of a new Monkey Island is going to first attract people who played the old series and loved it, and want to play more of the same. And we know you could make something that looked and felt the same if you really wanted to.
However, the new control methods and views introduce a level of uncertainty. Sure, TellTale has a good track record with its other games so far, but is this really going to feel like a Monkey Island game when it looks and acts different?
Speaking for myself only, I would have bought the season already if it promised graphics on par with the original Maniac Mansion, because I play these games for the puzzles and funny events, not because they look nice. Furthermore, I just filled up my car with gas today, and it cost more than the entire Monkey Island season, meaning if your games are addictive enough to keep me off the road, they'll pay for themselves!
Despite that, with that level of uncertainty surrounding the controls, I can't bring myself to pre-order. I'm going to wait until at least a few episodes are out, maybe until the DVD is available, and see what others think of them once the real games are here. Yes, I know I'll miss out on the special exclusive DVD cover, oh well.
I appreciate all of the comments that everyone has posted here, good and bad. Please keep posting comments when the games have been released. They'll help me come to a decision.
I own a lot of consoles, just none that will play Telltales Games. I always stay behind a generation because I can't see the sense in paying more than a 100 dollars for a system. If they'd like to port it to the XBox or the Atari 2600, we might be in business.
Hey, there's a bright side, at least we don't have to control the game with the 2600 joystick and one button. Although, come to think of it, you could have played the Sam and Max games that way.
With the current control scheme, keyboard movement is a PITA and not at all immersive. Joystick movement is great. I would love to use a joystick, BUT then I have the problem of selecting items to interact with. Toggling through all on-screen items looses the immersive experience that this new control scheme is supposed to bring. I would not mind having to walk up to objects and the player gives a knowing glance to the nearby object, but that does not work well in W&G. If that was fixed then the new controls would be playable with a joystick. Right now it is not.
The current best way is to have a joystick in one hand to move and the mouse in the other to select items. Which I can't bring myself to do.
But us complainers still feel there are other avenues that have not been explored. I hold out no hope for real P&C movement. That is not compatible with the consoles and would be extra work on TTG's part. Still there are plenty of ways to map mouse movement directly to the current movement controls that would be very little work on TTG's part. These have been stated plenty of times but TTG says they are awkward. IMHO they can't be any more awkward then the current controls.
So yes, my mentioning this makes me an ungrateful S.O.A.B. who has bought/pre-ordered every game.
I will try to add some of the other movement methods mentioned here to my mouse movement script next week. Unfortunately because this script runs outside of the game and has no knowledge of what the game is doing, it will never be a perfect soloution.
We bought our first console at Christmas, a wii. And I will be buying these TMI episodes on Wiiware - nunchuck thumbstick to move, wiimote to point and click (I assume). It should work a treat. Also it keeps the kids out of my offic e and in the lounge when I'm trying to work, and the wife is much more likely to play if it's on the Wii, we don't tend to play Adventure Games together huddled round the PC like we used to before the kids were born (due to time, tiredness, family duties, work etc).
I will probably buy MI on PC too, but so long as the Wiiware releases in PAL territories are close by the PC release, I may reconsider (though I do feel left out not having access to the private forum, just not sure it's worth $35 at this point)
Being able to fully control W&G with the mouse is fantastic, and I really hope you manage to get something like that working for the MI episodes as well!
Thanks a lot!
Does that mean if you want you can somehow move the character with the mouse in most situations ?
Thanks for the response, although I meant something more visual - like a video or even a playable sketch. I dunno, I'm sure you guys would have like 100 ideas in half an hour
About the interrogation scene, it was the only one where the value of creative cameras clicked with me instantly - loved it. Interesting note on the # of characters - I didn't catch that one, although it's kinda obvious.
The action minigames are obviously better off with direct control (although I could imagine the opening sequence with mouse) - what's difficult for me is to get my mind around the immersion value of direct control while exploring. It worked very well in Dreamfall (even though that control scheme was far from perfect), but I somehow don't feel the added value in W&G. 's why I'm looking for help.
I can hardly wait!
Character-relative controls, where W walks in the direction the character is facing, A turns left, D turns right, and (if you can afford to throw in the time for the walk cycle) S for backwards. Should be easy to put in place, and some people would find that works better for them.
At least this way we get some choice over control method, even if we don't get mouse support.
Actually now that I have seen the first real gameplay videos of TMI I think there is no way back to pure point and click. The videos gamespot have show a very dynamic visualisation with zooms and scrolls everywhere, sort of like a movie. However I personally think while I dont mind the new controls even in the new scheme a mouse only option still would be possible!
My personal guess is while it does not really show that much in Wallace and Grommit, the Monkey Island videos really do the new control method justice. If you want to check it out http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/talesofmonkeyisland/index.html?tag=result;title;2
Anyway there is a big spoiler alert, but check out the stage demo and you will see what I mean!
Even if your not sure about the graphics or controls, the music and voice alone makes me feel excited like a small child a christmas.
I just cannot wait.
The great thing about putting out games so fast is that we can adapt and evolve at each step. W&G was only able to take direct control so far with the time and resources we had, but MI can take that system and spend their time and resources on taking it farther. And the games after MI will take it farther than MI will.
"If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of those who came before me." -Isaac Newton
then i suggest we all just take a break from this thread and come back when the demo is out. we've heard everything everyone is saying. if people have complaints once they've played the game, then i think we can have a better discussion. right now its hard for me to read through this because some of you might change your mind once you play it.
also, thanks for posting in here Cesar!
This is what I'm looking forward to. The possibilities are most intriguing if this catches on. Seeing adventures in the limelight by more than just adventure fans is a very attractive prospect.
What speaks against using the left analog joystick for movement (as it is right now), the right analog joystick for mouse like free exploration instead of huddling through the fixed visible options and instead moving this to the left digital joystick and again moving this ones functionality (huddling through the inventory and objects lists) on LB and LT (inventory) and on RB and RT (objects) whilst the buttons A,B,X,Y keep their functionality?
Well lets say it simple, cursor movement with a stick simply sucks compared to a mouse, I personally think the hotspot system is ok regarding the gamepad.
If you dont trust me, try one of the old Lucasarts Adventure games which were designed with a joystick in mind and try to play it without a mouse but with some kind of joystick!
Every time you have to move the cursor with a stick you want to throw it against the wall literally.
A mouse back then really helped to remove that problem!
The best control schemes regarding 3d and gamepads I have seen so far were left control stick movement, right control stick camera adjustment, the rest doing anything else. If you dont have a free floating camera you can do whatever you want with the right stick, but you have to bear in mind, that every action with a stick is less precise than mouse pointing and movement takes longer!
Despite the fact the gamepad is far superior for controlling third person views than any mouse keyboard combo is, simply because you get additional movement axes which feel quite natural!
I'm happy to write in this forum, because developers read it!
And i'm happy of the new Monkey Island!
Talltale is the new Lucasarts - that's sure - you did a great job, guys!!!!! You are the only team that can do a new chapter of Monkey Island imho!
I like the new Monkey Island, it will be very fun! I like the visual style, really don't know why many people aren't happy with it. It's a "different" style for sure, but we'll get used to it: I remember that many years ago when the first screenshots of Curse of Monkey Island came out we also said that the style was ugly and that Guybrush was horrible - but now we say that visually it's the best game!
Now my complains about the control scheme.
Here i got some.
The problem it's not about cinematic. It's not about the numbers of key pressed. It's not about the player being "old school".
The problem are: beers, cigarettes and my chair.
Now I explain myself.
MI is an adventure game and it's not an action game.
So i wanna relax my nerves, not being in tension, just the game, my PC and my brain.
Maybe i wanna smoke a cigarette. With the MI1, MI2, CMI I had the mouse in my right hand and a cigarette in the other. Or a beer. Or a snack. Or sometimes i pulled down my chair and played half laid down and pop corns in my left hand and Guybrush on the other.... I felt very relaxed. How many of you smoked a cigarette while playing adventures?
Now i can't do that if you put this damn keyboard in my left hand!
Really, that's the real problem. I just don't feel relaxed - I tried Wallace & Gromit. I laid down on my chair, but sometimes i had to stand up again to press the keyboard to change locations. It bothered me. So i started to "hating" changing location. And I cannot have a cigarette because i have to use the key - but i almost solved by changing the way I press the key (i press LEFT with my pinky and RIGHT with my thumb, the ring finger for other keys and the remaining fingers to hold the cigarette). I cannot eat anything or i'll dirt my keyboard with mi fingers full of oil, salt or pizza!
Do u think I'm crazy? Maybe. But *these kind* of games has to relax. That's why many people hate action mini games in an adventure game. To play Doom i prefer the keyboard and the mouse, there's no time to lay down on your chair or to smoke a cigarette, because u have to be quick.
In the end you can try to think Doom as Heavy Metal, and Monkey Island as Classical Music: you can go to an Heavy Metal concert and stand up all the time jumping and screaming. But would you do the same in a Classical Music concert? I think not. Why? Because they are different genre, and the way you approach it will ever be different.
Tales of Monkey Island with keyboard is like to go to Opera in a theatre without seats: surely it will be a great piece of music, but u have to stand up all the time.
Said this I think that now is too late to make changes to the control system.
But don't feel sad: the game will surely be great!!! I'm sure!!! Fun, pirates and islands!
Thank you so much, Telltale, of this gift of a new Monkey Island after all these years. I deserve you the best wishes for this project, that I hope will be the first of a long series!
Best regards,
Bloody_Eugene
Beeing able to select between the hotspots in a more fluent analog way could give you back some more freedom for exploration. I guess it comes down to how it's accelerated.
Beside of that the fixed hotspot selection feels too restricted to me i also sometimes had problems that the order in which i can steer between them wasn't this intuitive. For instance i remember that in W&G101 i had problems getting the hotspot for the badger and so run into problems because i thought he isn't an option at all although i first had the right idea. As it's now depending on the scene you really need to use the overlay representation in order not to miss something and even then the hotspot areas aren't always presented this clearly.
Think about a scene where you have to pick a flower from a garden, played in a classic way through a mouse: what do you do to pick up the flower? You click on it, it's obvious! The less obvious way is that you click on the ground near the flower, wait that the character reachs the flower and only then click on the flower to take it. This is nonsense because the character usually goes by itself to take it.
Think about it, in many games the character moves mostly by itself: u click on the flower and he goes to take the flower.
Listen to this:
Do you know RTS? Red Alert?
Well, to move your camera in those games you have to put your mouse on the edge of the screen.
Now, imagine it on an adventure game: you put the mouse on the right edge of the screen and the charachter starts moving in that direction, the camera follows him and scrolls till the end of the location. When the location ends the charachter stops walking. Is'nt it beautiful? No click involved!!!!
The problem was solved because u don't have to click on the ground!!!!
The character automatically knows where to go!!! You only "hinted" right or left!!! Or maybe up and down!!!
In the end it is: TO USE THE EDGE OF THE SCREEN TO SCROLL A LOCATION AND MAKING THE CHARACTER MOVING AUTOMATICALLY IN THAT DIRECTION!!! LIKE AN RTS!!!!
Telltale, please think about it!
Just hoping to be helpful!!!
Kind regards
Bloody_Eugene
How you steer a game really alters the way the game feels and somehow even seems to influence how you're solving things. Direct steering via a controller turns it slightly more into the action direction and an indirect mouse in a more traditional sense feels more relaxed.
Whilst still thinking that you can tweak quite a lot of things with a mouse steering i'm more and more open to the controller approach. What i still don't like is the combination of both keyboard and mouse. My main problem with the controller is the hotspot selection. It just would be fantastic if this could be optimised, preferable by an analog approach like i wrote above or at least by tweaking the already existing solution. At best offering both options as in the settings. Keeping the things which Cez said in mind and beeing one month away from the release i meanwhile prefer a tested and tweaked controller approach over a mouse solution which probably also has to mature up first.
There you have it. :O)
In other words, you don't care whether we like the controls or not, you will continue to use them anyway... thanks.
No we can't take a break, I bought W&G although I didn't like the controls, after paying and playing I really hate them... I will buy TMI, although I'm certain that I won't like the controls either. But if we don't complain now, you will use those controls for the next two game seasons and that's where you can get in trouble. Can you really afford to lose customers for 2 whole game seasons just because you didn't listen? Because I will not give you another chance after TMI to convince me.