Another negative about direct control - one thing I really liked in adventure games of the past was the ability to double click the edge of a screen (or something similar) to instantly skip to the next area. This is very helpful when you're stuck and have to walk around searching for what to do.
Another negative about direct control - one thing I really liked in adventure games of the past was the ability to double click the edge of a screen (or something similar) to instantly skip to the next area. This is very helpful when you're stuck and have to walk around searching for what to do.
In W&G (episode 1) you get a map, so you can get from A to B very quickly, and there is no need to manually walk all the way then. This works pretty good (except for the "map bug" that makes your mouse pointer disappear, so you again have to use the keyboard...)
My main argument for "point & click" is still that you need only one hand to control the game, so you can eat, drink, make some notes, handle the phone, pet your cat, etc. using the other one. - The main reason why MS-DOS became Windows may years ago is that some clever people (probably at Apple, not at Microsoft) noticed that is much more convenient to control your actions using a mouse pointer instead of a keyboard. Keyboad control is certainly the right decision for complex games where you have 20 different options you can choose from at the same time. But what I always liked about this type of adventure games is that you do not have to worry at all about the controls, but can intuitively move the characters around using the mouse.
I agree. It just seems much easier to click somewhere to have the character move there, rather than manually controlling the character all the way.
And when you're stuck and have to do a lot of walking - manually walking a character around for hours is a big chore, much better to sit back and click around.
I played the W&G demo on both PC and Xbox 360, to me using the pad was easier to learn then the keyboard/mouse combination. A wireless wii nunchuck/mouse combo would be awesome for both ToMI and W&G but then you’d need to get the wireless nunchuck working with the PC.
I'm a game developer and well... I understand what is required for deploying a game, the compromise you made, the improvements searched, etc... So everything is set now i suppose, and you make the shocking announcement of your life (of your game company) and the world went upside down as expected (the world of mainly every 20-30something PC classic adventure game player that is, myself included). And then you get lots of complaints from your very potencial customers about something that surely can not be changed due to your game/engine/room design. It really sound depressing...
It's not like you cant see this coming, seeing a similar feedback about WG's controls back then. But on adventure talking (no hurt intended), who cares about WG? so it was ok... But now we are talking here about MI (!), so you surely thought: wow, how big, you better take care of what decision are made to not screw this (like, hey brainstorming! why dont we kill the voodo lady?...riiing! wrong! ... i mean things like that).
And you still came with the same control scheme than WG, so obviously you really must be convinced of it's goodness, and nothing posted here will change that. Even if Ron Gilbert himself came and posted against it wouldnt be of any help...
So... i preordered mine. Love the series, and i've been waiting YEARS for this. Really. But, as you love me as stated in my preorder email i hope you dont mind if think you should have find a way to have happy customers and not complaining ones...
And for my own desires... well... i think as another poster some pages ago, that adventure games are made for relaxing, thinking, taking your time in a pausing way, its not like a FPS, nor RPG... so no keyboard for me, just one handed mouse control as I lay down on the sofa/bed (Wii/PC gaming) while playing... because adventure games are like reading a book.
So just think about it, surely you'll get a hell of sells anyway, but in the end... you get a good game, instead a great one, and when someone ask... you'll always said... hey Grim Fandango is one of the best games ever made, but the control are just wrong, if only they re-release it with mouse control. You'll never get rid of that kind of "but".
Ron Gilbert must be okay with the control scheme. After all he was part of the meetings. Oh and on his website he expressed multiple frustrations with full mouse gameplay in SOMI. W&G has given TTG plenty of time to work on perfecting their control scheme.
GET OVER IT YOU UNGRATEFUL WHINY *words that would get me banned*
What about a simple GUI (that can be activated in the options menu) with the arrow keys similar to the old Eye of the Beholder games?.
It would only be a small plane sticked to the camera view similar to the inventory GUI with semi-transparent arrows and mimicking the keyboard arrow movement but working like a clickable button for the mouse.
So people instead of pressing the key on the keyboard they just hold the on-screen arrow key with the mouse.
I can illustrate the idea better with a screenshot.
I can go with something like this and i really dont think is hard to do or implement and both sides would be happy.
Are you kidding? That would be horrible. You wouldn't be able to get anywhere very quickly or effectively. It'd feel almost like playing the keyboard with boxing gloves. I'd rather the way someone else mentioned earlier: hold the right mouse button to walk and move the mouse left and right to steer.
All I can say is Telltale must be feeling pretty confident right now if this is the biggest concern people have about how a new Monkey Island game will turn out.
Okay, that just sounds like you want the mouse involved for the sake of having the mouse involved, not because it would be a better control method, because that would suck. It's no different than using the D-buttons, except you're laboriously clicking on them instead of using your fingers directly.
Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
As far as I'm concerned, after 8 episodes of Sam & Max (I started halfway through season 1), 5 episodes of Strong Bad, and Monkey 3, seeing something as simple as the hallway in Wallace & Gromit's house is a god-send. You don't have to look at the world from the side anymore, as if everything's on a stage. We can have rooms with 4 real walls. We can make more use of vertical space, and circular space, and let you go anywhere we want.
Talk about a COP OUT answer.
First thing is first W&G, like mentioned earlier only ever had 3 walls.
Secondly, You can make a fully 3D game WITH 4 walls.... something Telltale hasn't done yet, that is 100% Point and click navigational. It's been done before in the past, and has worked just fine nearly every time. Ever play City of Heroes? Yeah after issue 3 they added in Point and Click. You simply click when you wanna go, and can rotate the camera with right click.
As for saying, Oh we make control schemes usable on multiple platforms. *Sigh* I guess tell tale is full of bad designers then. The answer to your dilemma is to apply a new control scheme ONLY to the platforms that need one. We all know the Tell Tale engine fully supports PNC since it's been used in SnM. I know the code isn't gone, if it is gone... than you have som severely amateur programmers. So now you created new code for analog input. So the PC version should contain BOTH SETS of code... with out an option... they should work all the time together. I.E. Games For Windows games that allow you to just pick up your 360 gamepad without enabling it in the options menu such as GTA 4. The second an input is detected on the controller the controller is enabled. The same goes for KB&Mouse. The second an input on the mouse or keyboard is detected it switches over to that control scheme automatically on the fly.
All your answers are TERRIBLE excuses, since you think your trying to be innovative not realizing what your trying to do has been done before.... and done better I might add. So in other words..... your taking a step backwards just like everyone else suggests.
Oh and while we are on the topic of Controls and Tell Tale games.... wasn't the reason Tell Tale became a development studio because they wanted to bring back the old POINT AND CLICK ADVENTURES?
Oh yeah... I'm sorry, Case and Point.
Your getting the backlash because your being ignorant and claiming you are doing something original, when your simply not. This is the reason for all the semantics. You said that we aren't getting the answers we WANT. Well that is true.... but you also said the answers your giving were because of completely fallacious excuses. We might ACCEPT your answers if they made sense... but they don't... nor are they natural. Oh and by the way, I've known a few people with only one usable hand.... for some mystical reason Adventure games were their favorite... why is that? Maybe because you only need one hand to play them and you can still enjoy them like everybody else. So go ahead, take that away from some one with a disability because your seeking advancements that move you forward.....
::Rolls Eyes::
Oh and BTW, I never had a problem with the control scheme.... I have a problem with the lack of a choice.
I have to say, though... I've never felt any need to have more walls.. it never even occured to me.
In fact I actually rather like the way adventure games have traditionally been presented.
It's not a huge stretch: that was one of the ideas behind using the dioramas. It's a gag about how all the environments are like stage sets without 4th walls. (Maybe not a particularly funny gag, but that was the idea, anyway).
Cool. And yeah, it's not exactly laugh-out-loud funny, though I still find little "winks" at the player like this pretty amusing in their own way.
On-topic: ... Er, I'm afraid this will look a bit out of place with the current direction of the discussion, but I just wanted to say that I'd love to see the "press Tab to reveal hotspots" feature show up in Tales, since that's one of the best new things to come out of W&G.
Otherwise, I've pretty much said my piece about the controls in previous posts, at least for now.
Come on, this is just getting silly. What kind of hell would break lose? More ranting users on the bulletin boards (80 instead of 40)? And absolutely no response from the site staff? Some hell, that would be.
Also, accusing Telltale of going after only the money stands no ground whatsoever. It was said earlier in this thread that adventure games are anything but a goldmine (and I can believe that, since Telltale is producing like 60% of this genre's output), and also, being familiar with the prices in the Telltale Store, they're quite reasonable and don't compare to the prices of those companies who ask 1.5 times the price of a Telltale season for a game that lasts twice as long as one single episode (and I'm even being optimistic here).
I won't even comment on the remarks about the W&G gfx...
Slow money is better than fast money. Video games are WAY to high priced right now, if they were lower priced say like $19.99 sure if the game sold a million they would make less money than if the game sold a million at $60. The problem with that argument though is, if there is a million people willing to purchase a game for $60, there is easily 6 million people willing to buy it for $19.99. Especially if it's actually a quality game unlike the games currently priced at $20.... Horrible games.... essentially almost always a total waste of that $20. If you had a marketing campaign as big as say gears of war for a $20 game of the same quality... you would make more revenue in the long run. No question.
There is only 2 notable problems with tell tale stopping them from being the best dev team to ever exist IMO.
1.) Episodes. I don't want episodic games..... The counter argument is well, you end up with a game that is longer than a normal game.... Well this is simply untrue. Episodes force you to replay certain environments WAY too much. Lets look at Sam n Max. Compare it to the original where the office was the beginning of the game and once you really got on the road you never went home till the adventure was finished. Sam n Max episodes almost always focused on the office. Totally ruined what made Sam n Max special.
Episodes also don't connect to well. Every new episode feels like a totally new game, the events in the previous episode were pretty much all tied up. The end of each episode gave you a clue about what the next episode would be about... it didn't feel like a grand story arc like they advertised.
If you want to see a game based on episodes that works.... check out Alone in the Dark (2008.) Although they didn't actually release them as episodes in the long run.... they had the system perfected.
So what I mean by perfected is, if I have Every Episode of Sam n Max season 1 installed... it should play from episode 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 seamlessly. Instead you have to watch the credits which interrupts the flow of the game... plus you have to actually quit and start a new executable... (Also adding to that feeling that you are not in fact playing the next episode of ONE GAME.... but you are in fact playing yet another small tiny game.)
SnM felt like 6 games that were all sequels to each other in stead of 1 ONE GAME broken down into seasons. Also, the previously on Sam n Max and the Next time on Sam n Max were totally missing.... They designed the episodic model to mimic television.... yet they fall flat on their face. Another thing Alone in the Dark (2008) did. When you beat an episode if you chose to quit it would give you a trailer of the next episode like a TV commercial. When you loaded a game it gave you the previously on and gave you a clipmix like lost (with a bit more detail since they aren't confined to a time slot) so you could get refreshed on the happenings of the story. If you were at the end of the game it would brief you in about 2 minutes everything that happened since the beginning all the way up to the current episode you were on. Something tell tale seemed to miss entirely.
The point is Alone in the Dark felt like one complete game, played like one complete game... but also captured the feel of episodic television perfectly. Sam n Max felt like numerous entirely too short and simplified games that were all sequels to each other... combined with the fact that you couldn't play through the final game seamlessly just breaks the flow and feel that it's supposed to be one game when it's all said and done.
Every Tell Tale game I've played thus far has missed the boat in this regard.
2.) They are designing their games wrong. They are designing a game for all platforms instead of making subtle changes to make the game best suit the platform it's being played upon. Also, a big mistake. Especially from a company that has it's roots founded in PC gaming. It's like a MONDO slap in the face to all original adventure gaming fans.
Provided those two gripes were fixed with future releases.... their games would be MUCH more enjoyable and as a result reward them with more monetary gain.
Simple really. Oh and before and chief Tell Tale guy comes in here to tell me jibberish PR spin that there engine doesn't support that.... then you built your engine wrong... as your engine doesn't exactly support the episodic model you chose. With that said... it's time to apply the breaks... beef up the engine so it can do the kind of things you would expect from an episodic game and then continue production on future titles.
Also, don't update an engine mid game... ( and not supporting widescreen in 2006 was a monumental error in game design... as well the low standard for audio that you guys demonstrated with the first season of Sam n Max. Totally amateur and unacceptable considering FREE MODS had better graphics and sound than your RETAIL product.)
Other than that, I have to say I'm quite thrilled with Tell Tale games. At least they are proficient at making the Adventure Gameplay we all know and love. Although they did stupify it with Sam n Max.... combining items MADE that game. Sam n Max every single episode was always the same, find a few items use them find a way to score some money so you can buy the final item from Boscoe and conclude the episode. The pattern is so monotonous it's impossible to believe it's even a game... every episode boiled down to the exact same thing as the very first episode... from a puzzle point of view.
Adventure games aren't supposed to reuse puzzles.... let alone develop a pattern in the puzzles. Every puzzle is supposed to be new and original. This also snubbed the feeling of it being big game broken down into episodes.
Anyway, my Tell Tale rant is concluded. Feel free to flame all you want... as I don't care... my opinion is the only one right. (to me.)
I stopped reading after this. We've already addressed how wrong that statement is.
P.S. I love everyone.
If you read the rest of the article you would quickly realize what you've addressed previously is simply wrong. The article was about how BOTH parties are wrong.... but most importantly Tell Tale. The article is written with game design experience, not as an avid fan boy just ranting to rant. So I highly suggest you go back and read and quit acting like your the god of gods who has the all mighty one and only correct answer. Because that is just conceited and selfish.
P.S. You don't.... love everyone. You don't even know hardly anyone here as an actual person. Furthermore... you don't care, if you don't care... you can't love. If you did care, you would of read my post even thinking it was wrong..... but you simply opted from 1 sentence that my opinion wasn't worth your time.
Words don't mean anything when referring to emotions. Actions do, and your actions show you don't even care about anybody who disagrees with you. If this is the case, your lying. I know you didn't literally mean you love everyone.... but I took that as a way to say you respect your consumers..
In actually you chose to voice your disrespect for me.... your consumer and then lie about it by saying you care about your consumers. I.E. PR Spin, it only works on people not intelligent enough to understand what you did there.
I think you're being overly negative in tone and attitude (which is probably why people would flame you or aren't listening to you), but I actually agree with you. It's a bit sad that you can't use either/or control scheme depending on the platform you're using. That would be perfect. Why does it have to change completely for all system ports? Why does the P&C control scheme even have to "evolve?" The simplest approach I would think would be to add an alternate control scheme to make things easier for people who prefer using arrow keys and whatnot.
I also agree about episodes not flowing together. But it's not a huge issue for me. Taking the time to properly program the engine to support such features as you mentioned would have been excellent. It does seem like Tell Tale kind of rushes their games out the door. But I suppose you'd have to to keep to the month-to-month deadline. And it was a risk in itself to start making P&C adventures again with S&M Season One, so I can forgive that. Nothing is stopping TTG from putting more thought into things now and raising the bar, though.
I still don't understand how. You'd be pushing one arrow at a time by clicking on it with a mouse. It seems so unnecessary and overly-complicated. Again, like playing with the keyboard with boxing gloves (although Strong Bad seems to be able to do it well enough...).
I think you're being overly negative in tone and attitude (which is probably why people would flame you or aren't listening to you), but I actually agree with you. It's a bit sad that you can't use either/or control scheme depending on the platform you're using. That would be perfect. Why does it have to change completely for all system ports? Why does the P&C control scheme even have to "evolve?" The simplest approach I would think would be to add an alternate control scheme to make things easier for people who prefer using arrow keys and whatnot.
I also agree about episodes not flowing together. But it's not a huge issue for me. Taking the time to properly program the engine to support such features as you mentioned would have been excellent. It does seem like Tell Tale kind of rushes their games out the door. But I suppose you'd have to to keep to the month-to-month deadline. And it was a risk in itself to start making P&C adventures again with S&M Season One, so I can forgive that. Nothing is stopping TTG from putting more thought into things now and raising the bar, though.
Well, the tone is set from the idiotic banter that goes on before hand. If I were to tell you that i was going to the store to get milk and cookies do you want some cookies... and I come home and tell you you can't have the ones I bought..... but I'm going to attempt to make better ones... which infact come out worse.... and you try them and tell me that they are worse. If I sat there till I was blue in the face telling you to try it... you'll like it.... or learn to like it over and over and over again...... isn't it time to just be blunt and say it?
And yes, I can forgive Season One of Sam n Max..... but now that Tell Tale is a success am I wrong for suggesting they should stop revamp and then continue? If your going to do something..... do it right.... unless it's a wing it type deal. Which SnM S1 was. Now that they have more than established themselves.... shouldn't they raise the bar of quality for the games they put out? Or are they gonna keep winging it with rushed games until the revenue stops coming in because their games just really aren't that stellar?
The goal in business is always to keep your consumers smiling... not make changes that upset your consumers and tell them to deal with it. This is what Eidos Montreal is in the progress of doing with Deus Ex 3, and what the industry in general has been doing for the duration of next generation platforms. It doesn't work..... Lucas Arts was hated... EA was hated, Ubisoft was hated... Crytek was hated..... Eidos Montreal is becoming hated...... And why? All because they all treat their consumers like trash, with unnecessary changes, building games for cross platform without taking the additional time to tweak it so it's best suited to the platform it's being played on (i.e. Shoddy Ports), and horrible PR telling the consumers to basically stick it.
It's just a bad ideology to have... one that has been proven to fail every time it's been used. Why do development studios continue to do it? Because less work = less stress.... which is also synonymous with lazy. Cutting corners also means more monetary status..... so being lazy is a reward until it comes crashing down on you. Everybody must always learn the hard way, instead of being wise and learning that slow and steady ALWAYS trumps fast and unreliable. Didn't the tortoise and the hair teach anybody anything?
P.S.
I really am sorry that I came a crossed so negative but I'm a die hard gamer and I'm genuinely sick of being walked on and treated as dirt and being told what has already been done is some how now impossible. I'm sorry, but Tell Tale ABSOLUTELY should of released a patch for season one of SNM to support widescreen. They just don't want to take the time to go that extra step to make the consumers smile.... and that just agitates me to the point that I don't even wanna purchase from them anymore...... but I need MI... :-(
Lose lose situation for me. And like I said, I don't mind the new control scheme.... I didn't mind Grim Fandago's control scheme or MI 4's for that matter. Never even bugged me the slightest.... I guess cuz I use the keyboard to "drive" my player in almost every game I play now anyway... I'm used to it. The thing I have a problem with is the lame excuses on why they can't do both when they absolutely can.
Take DX 3 for example, Deus Ex was always first person, and required detailed health managment. DX 3 now has forced contextual 3rd person elements such as a cover system and auto regenerating health. (Health was always an option in Deus Ex... there was an upgrade that gave you regen health for those that don't know.....)
Third person should be a toggle... but they said you couldn't do a cover system in First Person... it was Technically impossible to do in a game.... and I wrote up in detail how to implement it in First Person. Then KillZone 2 comes out with the exact system I detailed and gets REMARKABLE scores.
I'm sick of it.... when a super HIGH % of people don't like your idea... it's time to make it an option or remove it altogether... not tell people to deal with it. And these companies wonder why people choose to pirate games or simply not play them anymore.... then they make up dumb excuses as to why sales were low. See Tribes:Vengaence. The only reason sales were low is because they only advertised on tribalwar.com a Tribes community website. Then they said Tribes was no longer an interesting intellectual property to the consumer and pulled the plug on all future games.
It's that PR Spin.... the same spin that Tell Tale is giving us about this control scheme right now. It's just non sense. Nobody can ever admit till after the fact and it's too late that they made a mistake, they all let it ride on the ego and say oh you don't like it... deal with it. And ultimately that is the deciding factor on weather on not many people are going to buy from you again.
I don't like these controls either, but please... you're going a bit overboard here, I think.
You do have some valid points, but you should try to make your points in a more polite manner... I think that would be more effective, too.
I don't like these controls either, but please... you're going a bit overboard here, I think.
You do have some valid points, but you should try to make your points in a more polite manner... I think that would be more effective, too.
I do like the new controls.... and I've stated that. I don't like the excuses on why they refuse to make it an option. And I'm not particularly rude or mean, I'm just being a critic. There is no polite way to tell some one they are ugly is there? Didn't think so, it always sounds rude.... but I'm not being rude.
Text is deceiving. I promise you if you heard me speak my post you wouldn't think it was rude at all... but rather constructive criticism. Bar the exception when I said it was a cop out answer.... but I was being true... because it is... and I explained how and why. So with that taken in account... how could it be rude?
I just disagree... that's all.
And overboard.... I just don't see how I'm being overboard. I take the time to account and write a rebuttal to the answers that has come from tell tale. Should I have been more brief? It's not like I said F, U or something.... I didn't call anybody names or flame anybody.... I just wrote my opinion.
My point in short, is game design is about making a game the player WANTS to play. (No capital "WANTS" doesn't mean I'm yelling, it means I'm stressing my point) In order to achieve that, you have to tailor the game with knowing people aren't going to like certain things and incorporating alternative CHOICES for the player to make. Choices that influence how the end user would LIKE to play the game.... not its this way or GTFO. And that's what Tell Tale has done. Rather than seek a solution to the apparent problem... they shy away and offer excuses on how they can't give the consumer what the consumer wants. Game design is all about solving problems, not being apathetic and taking the easy way out and hoping it improves over time.... to me that is the definition of a cop-out.
In fact... that is the definition of cop-out in the dictionary.
"cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion."
See definition 3, "An excuse for inaction or evasion." Instead of fixing the problem or trying to incorporate a way to give the user the best of both worlds... they choose to do nothing and offer excuses on why they HAVE to do it that way.
No, I just said it would be nice for those who can't. And it sounded like something that would be extremely easy to implement, just as an option.
I mean, it would be nice if Telltale could make an audio-only version of the game for PC users who don't have a monitor, too, but it would also be an outrageous and silly request for me to make. And it would be presumptuous of me to say it would be easy to implement.
The majority of gamers aren't deaf either, and many games still have subtitles
Subtitles aren't solely there for deaf people. Also, the amount of deaf gamers is no doubt significantly higher than the amount of PC players who expect their games to accommodate the possibility of their setup not including a keyboard (which is zero).
I mean, it would be nice if Telltale could make an audio-only version of the game for PC users who don't have a monitor, too, but it would also be an outrageous and silly request for me to make. And it would be presumptuous of me to say it would be easy to implement.
So you're saying putting a few arrows on the screen as an option is about the same amount of work as making an audio-only game. Uh-huh.
Realistically speaking, it's an incredibly tiny effort.
Subtitles aren't solely there for deaf people. Also, the amount of deaf gamers is no doubt significantly higher than the amount of PC players who expect their games to accommodate the possibility of their setup not including a keyboard (which is zero).
So the amount of adventure gamers that would like an adventure game to be controlled without having to use the keyboard is zero. Uh-huh.
So you're saying putting a few arrows on the screen as an option is about the same amount of work as making an audio-only game. Uh-huh.
Realistically speaking, it's an incredibly tiny effort.
Changing the movement mechanic from direct control (a decision that heavily effects the composition of camera shots in the environments) to a pure point 'n click would be a matter of "putting a few arrows on the screen?" Realistically speaking, that statement is probably incredibly ignorant.
So the amount of adventure gamers that would like an adventure game to be controlled without having to use the keyboard is zero. Uh-huh.
That is not what you said. You said that Telltale should accommodate an imaginary populous unable to use their keyboard. There's a difference between "can't" and "would prefer not to."
I mean, it would be nice if Telltale could make an audio-only version of the game for PC users who don't have a monitor, too, but it would also be an outrageous and silly request for me to make. And it would be presumptuous of me to say it would be easy to implement.
Subtitles aren't solely there for deaf people. Also, the amount of deaf gamers is no doubt significantly higher than the amount of PC players who expect their games to accommodate the possibility of their setup not including a keyboard (which is zero).
I hear what your saying... but it's not zero. Do you know how many people have prosthetic arms? More than Zero..... But the argument wasn't that they expect the developers to cater to them... but more that the Genre by nature DID cater to them indirectly. And making unnecessary changes to the genre that don't actually improve the game play from any perspective rules these people out for absolutely no reason.
IMO, it's unfair.... since it can totally be played by PNC, as FULL 3D games with 4 walls and over the shoulder cameras have done before. This is the sole reason they implemented Point and Click for City of Heroes. So people who couldn't use a keyboard could play with 100% functionality. The entire game can be played with the mouse, targeting... power casting, interaction..... movement.... They also had Point and Click OR Both button Drive. They had 2 different ways to play the entire game with a mouse.... PLUS the mouse and keyboard option.
So somebody out there DOES cater on PURPOSE to the users we are specifically talking about.... but the point was never that Tell Tale should.
Changing the movement mechanic from direct control (a decision that heavily effects the composition of camera shots in the environments) to a pure point 'n click would be a matter of "putting a few arrows on the screen?" Realistically speaking, that statement is probably incredibly ignorant.
I never said anything about changing the mechanics. I was replying to a post suggesting a simple option to be included on top of the existing controls. Besides, I never said Telltale *should* do that, I said it would be nice if they did.
That is not what you said. You said that Telltale should accommodate an imaginary populous who can't use their keyboard. There's a difference between "can't" and "would prefer not to."
The point I made was there are plenty of people who would prefer some sort of mouse controls as an option.
And the populous who cannot comfortably use their keyboard for gaming isn't imaginary, though I'll admit it's small.
Also, the way you stated it was -
the amount of PC players who expect their games to accommodate the possibility of their setup not including a keyboard (which is zero)
...which is false. The number of adventure gamers that expect their adventure games to accommodate the possibility of playing without a keyboard is not zero.
Changing the movement mechanic from direct control (a decision that heavily effects the composition of camera shots in the environments) to a pure point 'n click would be a matter of "putting a few arrows on the screen?" Realistically speaking, that statement is probably incredibly ignorant.
That is not what you said. You said that Telltale should accommodate an imaginary populous unable to use their keyboard. There's a difference between "can't" and "would prefer not to."
I think that if they put a circle with a dot in the center, when you click and hold you could have analog control over your character based on a digital UI overlay with just the mouse. Just like an onscreen keyboard, except for an Analog Joystick. Why would this be realistically incredibly ignorant? It's actually a great Idea.... even better if it's analog with a full 360 Degree radius and a 10% deadzone.
And show the quote where anybody said "Tell Tale Should Accommodate one armed people."
Cuz I read the quote... and the guy said he knew a girl with one hand that loved adventure games.... so even if the populace is small... it's certainly not imaginary.... I would consider that an ignorant statement.
I never said anything about changing the mechanics. I was replying to a post suggesting a simple option to be included on top of the existing controls.
Which is an option that would require more than "incredibly tiny effort," is all I was getting at. You can say it's simple all you want, but, and don't take this the wrong way, but what do you (or any of us not involved with the tech) really know about it?
Which is an option that would require more than "incredibly tiny effort," is all I was getting at. You can say it's simple all you want, but, and don't take this the wrong way, but what do you (or any of us not involved with the tech) really know about it?
Adding a few arrows to control a character is very easy, I have no doubt about that.
Anyway, all I said was it would be nice if something like this was implemented. It's by far an optimal solution, but for some people, it would be better than nothing.
If it's the point you were trying to make, it's not the one you expressed.
I was replying to your statement about the amount of people expecting a game to be possible to play without a keyboard was zero.
Which is an option that would require more than "incredibly tiny effort," is all I was getting at. You can say it's simple all you want, but, and don't take this the wrong way, but what do you (or any of us not involved with the tech) really know about it?
If it's the point you were trying to make, it's not the one you expressed.
Well from some one who comes from a software development backround... it's incredibly easy. They already have a GUI that it clickable and every game they make they change the interface... so adding in new clickable GUI's is apparently a snap. Then all you do is make the clickable buttons on the UI send a call to the code assigned with W,A,S, and D. It could be implemented in under 30 minutes by one person. Maybe an hour or 2 for final art for the actual buttons... but I can't see an experienced 2D artist taking 2 hours to draw one arrow. (You only need one, then you copy and rotate it 3 times.)
If you have no experience in software... that's fine, but other people do. And it literally is as simple as making a clickable button that macros a key press.
(by the way this is not something bound by the engine code.... this is simply a coding language issue.... if you have binds to keys, all you do is call the same code to run that pushing the regular W or Up Arrow would call when you click the up arrow on the Onscreen GUI D-Pad.)
And personally I still think it wouldn't be a hindrance at all if it was an analog. It's already confirmed that the engine supports analogs since it's the same engine that is running the Wii-Ware Version, and presumably the Xbox 360 controller will work to... just like Wallace & Gromit. So it would be as simple as mapping the onscreen GUI to the same code that runs the analog. It would be like Phantom Hour Glass on the DS touching in a direction to move... Would work beautifully. And I fully support this Idea over PNC since they don't have to change the camera angles. There is no compromise... just a solution to the problem..... something Tell Tale has been telling us is impossible... hence why I called them Cop-Outs.
In just nearly 15 minutes Armakuni and I, came up with a solution ( A solution I might add that could be implemented in less than an hour) while they adamantly tell us to stick it you know where.....
I think that if they put a circle with a dot in the center, when you click and hold you could have analog control over your character based on a digital UI overlay with just the mouse. Just like an onscreen keyboard, except for an Analog Joystick. Why would this be realistically incredibly ignorant? It's actually a great Idea.... even better if it's analog with a full 360 Degree radius and a 10% deadzone.
What you propose sounds to me just like a point 'n click interface where the character follows the cursor around, which doesn't at all address the reasons Telltale stated they adopted direct control for W&G in the first place. Unless I misunderstand your intentions? What exactly is this "digital UI overlay" supposed to be?
Cuz I read the quote... and the guy said he knew a girl with one hand that loved adventure games.... so even if the populace is small... it's certainly not imaginary.... I would consider that an ignorant statement.
I specifically said what was imaginary was a populace that has the expectation that such a disability would be catered to by a game developer. If you're trying to say that I asserted that people with disabilities don't exist, then your imagination is a vast one indeed.
If you have no experience in software... that's fine, but other people do. And it literally is as simple as making a clickable button that macros a key press.
Ah, so you're simply saying there should be GUI arrows that represent the arrow keys. Your suggestion does sound easy to implement, but what it doesn't sound like is an acceptable control scheme.
You said that Telltale should accommodate an imaginary populous unable to use their keyboard. There's a difference between "can't" and "would prefer not to."
Hi. I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Rose; I have serious physical issues and I, like other people I know, am grateful for this thing called "voice to text programming". Why? If we want to be strictly correct, yes. I can use the keyboard, and some days it's easy to.
Others? It's incredibly PAINFUL for me to do this. And the result is that I CANNOT use it for multiple days afterward.
I'm a member of a small population. But we're not imaginary.
I don't expect game controls to be designed with one-handed use in mind. But if a system exists that works well for the average player AND someone with keyboard issues can use, then I do think it makes sense to use the more-inclusive option. If the one-handed option is of poor-quality, then no. I don't expect, nor ask, that it be implemented just for those who need it. But if it works well, then yes, I would ask that at least in the future the option be considered.
I don't care about these controls, since as far as I'm aware there isn't even a firm confirmation of what scheme is in place. For me, using the keyboard in a WASD format is the difference between playing ten-ish minutes at a time instead of a half hour or more, but I can deal.
But yeah. There are those of us who can't use a keyboard without pain or at all--and I do know people who qualify as "at all" and use voice to text programs (and a mouse, if they can) only. Please don't dismiss our existence because you disagree with someone who brings it up.
I apologize if I sound short; I honestly don't mean to, and given the tone of several comments here already I'm working hard not to. But this is a sensitive issue for me, and being called a member of an "imaginary" population is something that happens more frequently than I'd like. People often cannot conceive that there are those of us who CANNOT do something that is an every-day task to most of the population that requires no effort or thought.
ETA: And, for the record: the movements required with a mouse put much less stress on both my wrists and fingers than typing, especially with a touch-pad, which is why one-handed/mouse controls are something I generally CAN use.
I don't know anyone that would expect a company to cater to disabilities, I said it would be nice... not that I *expected* it.
And as someone else pointed out - adventure games used to be a genre these people could expect to fully enjoy in the past. Which is one of the reasons it's such a shame this had to be changed.
Comments
My main argument for "point & click" is still that you need only one hand to control the game, so you can eat, drink, make some notes, handle the phone, pet your cat, etc. using the other one. - The main reason why MS-DOS became Windows may years ago is that some clever people (probably at Apple, not at Microsoft) noticed that is much more convenient to control your actions using a mouse pointer instead of a keyboard. Keyboad control is certainly the right decision for complex games where you have 20 different options you can choose from at the same time. But what I always liked about this type of adventure games is that you do not have to worry at all about the controls, but can intuitively move the characters around using the mouse.
And when you're stuck and have to do a lot of walking - manually walking a character around for hours is a big chore, much better to sit back and click around.
I played the W&G demo on both PC and Xbox 360, to me using the pad was easier to learn then the keyboard/mouse combination. A wireless wii nunchuck/mouse combo would be awesome for both ToMI and W&G but then you’d need to get the wireless nunchuck working with the PC.
I'm a game developer and well... I understand what is required for deploying a game, the compromise you made, the improvements searched, etc... So everything is set now i suppose, and you make the shocking announcement of your life (of your game company) and the world went upside down as expected (the world of mainly every 20-30something PC classic adventure game player that is, myself included). And then you get lots of complaints from your very potencial customers about something that surely can not be changed due to your game/engine/room design. It really sound depressing...
It's not like you cant see this coming, seeing a similar feedback about WG's controls back then. But on adventure talking (no hurt intended), who cares about WG? so it was ok... But now we are talking here about MI (!), so you surely thought: wow, how big, you better take care of what decision are made to not screw this (like, hey brainstorming! why dont we kill the voodo lady?...riiing! wrong! ... i mean things like that).
And you still came with the same control scheme than WG, so obviously you really must be convinced of it's goodness, and nothing posted here will change that. Even if Ron Gilbert himself came and posted against it wouldnt be of any help...
So... i preordered mine. Love the series, and i've been waiting YEARS for this. Really. But, as you love me as stated in my preorder email
And for my own desires... well... i think as another poster some pages ago, that adventure games are made for relaxing, thinking, taking your time in a pausing way, its not like a FPS, nor RPG... so no keyboard for me, just one handed mouse control as I lay down on the sofa/bed (Wii/PC gaming) while playing... because adventure games are like reading a book.
So just think about it, surely you'll get a hell of sells anyway, but in the end... you get a good game, instead a great one, and when someone ask... you'll always said... hey Grim Fandango is one of the best games ever made, but the control are just wrong, if only they re-release it with mouse control. You'll never get rid of that kind of "but".
Anyway..... as said....
...oh well
GET OVER IT YOU UNGRATEFUL WHINY *words that would get me banned*
What about a simple GUI (that can be activated in the options menu) with the arrow keys similar to the old Eye of the Beholder games?.
It would only be a small plane sticked to the camera view similar to the inventory GUI with semi-transparent arrows and mimicking the keyboard arrow movement but working like a clickable button for the mouse.
So people instead of pressing the key on the keyboard they just hold the on-screen arrow key with the mouse.
I can illustrate the idea better with a screenshot.
I can go with something like this and i really dont think is hard to do or implement and both sides would be happy.
Talk about a COP OUT answer.
First thing is first W&G, like mentioned earlier only ever had 3 walls.
Secondly, You can make a fully 3D game WITH 4 walls.... something Telltale hasn't done yet, that is 100% Point and click navigational. It's been done before in the past, and has worked just fine nearly every time. Ever play City of Heroes? Yeah after issue 3 they added in Point and Click. You simply click when you wanna go, and can rotate the camera with right click.
As for saying, Oh we make control schemes usable on multiple platforms. *Sigh* I guess tell tale is full of bad designers then. The answer to your dilemma is to apply a new control scheme ONLY to the platforms that need one. We all know the Tell Tale engine fully supports PNC since it's been used in SnM. I know the code isn't gone, if it is gone... than you have som severely amateur programmers. So now you created new code for analog input. So the PC version should contain BOTH SETS of code... with out an option... they should work all the time together. I.E. Games For Windows games that allow you to just pick up your 360 gamepad without enabling it in the options menu such as GTA 4. The second an input is detected on the controller the controller is enabled. The same goes for KB&Mouse. The second an input on the mouse or keyboard is detected it switches over to that control scheme automatically on the fly.
All your answers are TERRIBLE excuses, since you think your trying to be innovative not realizing what your trying to do has been done before.... and done better I might add. So in other words..... your taking a step backwards just like everyone else suggests.
Oh and while we are on the topic of Controls and Tell Tale games.... wasn't the reason Tell Tale became a development studio because they wanted to bring back the old POINT AND CLICK ADVENTURES?
Oh yeah... I'm sorry, Case and Point.
Your getting the backlash because your being ignorant and claiming you are doing something original, when your simply not. This is the reason for all the semantics. You said that we aren't getting the answers we WANT. Well that is true.... but you also said the answers your giving were because of completely fallacious excuses. We might ACCEPT your answers if they made sense... but they don't... nor are they natural. Oh and by the way, I've known a few people with only one usable hand.... for some mystical reason Adventure games were their favorite... why is that? Maybe because you only need one hand to play them and you can still enjoy them like everybody else. So go ahead, take that away from some one with a disability because your seeking advancements that move you forward.....
::Rolls Eyes::
Oh and BTW, I never had a problem with the control scheme.... I have a problem with the lack of a choice.
Sit on that for a minute.
I stopped reading after this. We've already addressed how wrong that statement is.
P.S. I love everyone.
In fact I actually rather like the way adventure games have traditionally been presented.
Uhhhh....
Cool. And yeah, it's not exactly laugh-out-loud funny, though I still find little "winks" at the player like this pretty amusing in their own way.
On-topic: ... Er, I'm afraid this will look a bit out of place with the current direction of the discussion, but I just wanted to say that I'd love to see the "press Tab to reveal hotspots" feature show up in Tales, since that's one of the best new things to come out of W&G.
Otherwise, I've pretty much said my piece about the controls in previous posts, at least for now.
Slow money is better than fast money. Video games are WAY to high priced right now, if they were lower priced say like $19.99 sure if the game sold a million they would make less money than if the game sold a million at $60. The problem with that argument though is, if there is a million people willing to purchase a game for $60, there is easily 6 million people willing to buy it for $19.99. Especially if it's actually a quality game unlike the games currently priced at $20.... Horrible games.... essentially almost always a total waste of that $20. If you had a marketing campaign as big as say gears of war for a $20 game of the same quality... you would make more revenue in the long run. No question.
There is only 2 notable problems with tell tale stopping them from being the best dev team to ever exist IMO.
1.) Episodes. I don't want episodic games..... The counter argument is well, you end up with a game that is longer than a normal game.... Well this is simply untrue. Episodes force you to replay certain environments WAY too much. Lets look at Sam n Max. Compare it to the original where the office was the beginning of the game and once you really got on the road you never went home till the adventure was finished. Sam n Max episodes almost always focused on the office. Totally ruined what made Sam n Max special.
Episodes also don't connect to well. Every new episode feels like a totally new game, the events in the previous episode were pretty much all tied up. The end of each episode gave you a clue about what the next episode would be about... it didn't feel like a grand story arc like they advertised.
If you want to see a game based on episodes that works.... check out Alone in the Dark (2008.) Although they didn't actually release them as episodes in the long run.... they had the system perfected.
So what I mean by perfected is, if I have Every Episode of Sam n Max season 1 installed... it should play from episode 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 seamlessly. Instead you have to watch the credits which interrupts the flow of the game... plus you have to actually quit and start a new executable... (Also adding to that feeling that you are not in fact playing the next episode of ONE GAME.... but you are in fact playing yet another small tiny game.)
SnM felt like 6 games that were all sequels to each other in stead of 1 ONE GAME broken down into seasons. Also, the previously on Sam n Max and the Next time on Sam n Max were totally missing.... They designed the episodic model to mimic television.... yet they fall flat on their face. Another thing Alone in the Dark (2008) did. When you beat an episode if you chose to quit it would give you a trailer of the next episode like a TV commercial. When you loaded a game it gave you the previously on and gave you a clipmix like lost (with a bit more detail since they aren't confined to a time slot) so you could get refreshed on the happenings of the story. If you were at the end of the game it would brief you in about 2 minutes everything that happened since the beginning all the way up to the current episode you were on. Something tell tale seemed to miss entirely.
The point is Alone in the Dark felt like one complete game, played like one complete game... but also captured the feel of episodic television perfectly. Sam n Max felt like numerous entirely too short and simplified games that were all sequels to each other... combined with the fact that you couldn't play through the final game seamlessly just breaks the flow and feel that it's supposed to be one game when it's all said and done.
Every Tell Tale game I've played thus far has missed the boat in this regard.
2.) They are designing their games wrong. They are designing a game for all platforms instead of making subtle changes to make the game best suit the platform it's being played upon. Also, a big mistake. Especially from a company that has it's roots founded in PC gaming. It's like a MONDO slap in the face to all original adventure gaming fans.
Provided those two gripes were fixed with future releases.... their games would be MUCH more enjoyable and as a result reward them with more monetary gain.
Simple really. Oh and before and chief Tell Tale guy comes in here to tell me jibberish PR spin that there engine doesn't support that.... then you built your engine wrong... as your engine doesn't exactly support the episodic model you chose. With that said... it's time to apply the breaks... beef up the engine so it can do the kind of things you would expect from an episodic game and then continue production on future titles.
Also, don't update an engine mid game... ( and not supporting widescreen in 2006 was a monumental error in game design... as well the low standard for audio that you guys demonstrated with the first season of Sam n Max. Totally amateur and unacceptable considering FREE MODS had better graphics and sound than your RETAIL product.)
Other than that, I have to say I'm quite thrilled with Tell Tale games. At least they are proficient at making the Adventure Gameplay we all know and love. Although they did stupify it with Sam n Max.... combining items MADE that game. Sam n Max every single episode was always the same, find a few items use them find a way to score some money so you can buy the final item from Boscoe and conclude the episode. The pattern is so monotonous it's impossible to believe it's even a game... every episode boiled down to the exact same thing as the very first episode... from a puzzle point of view.
Adventure games aren't supposed to reuse puzzles.... let alone develop a pattern in the puzzles. Every puzzle is supposed to be new and original. This also snubbed the feeling of it being big game broken down into episodes.
Anyway, my Tell Tale rant is concluded. Feel free to flame all you want... as I don't care... my opinion is the only one right. (to me.)
If you read the rest of the article you would quickly realize what you've addressed previously is simply wrong. The article was about how BOTH parties are wrong.... but most importantly Tell Tale. The article is written with game design experience, not as an avid fan boy just ranting to rant. So I highly suggest you go back and read and quit acting like your the god of gods who has the all mighty one and only correct answer. Because that is just conceited and selfish.
P.S. You don't.... love everyone. You don't even know hardly anyone here as an actual person. Furthermore... you don't care, if you don't care... you can't love. If you did care, you would of read my post even thinking it was wrong..... but you simply opted from 1 sentence that my opinion wasn't worth your time.
Words don't mean anything when referring to emotions. Actions do, and your actions show you don't even care about anybody who disagrees with you. If this is the case, your lying. I know you didn't literally mean you love everyone.... but I took that as a way to say you respect your consumers..
In actually you chose to voice your disrespect for me.... your consumer and then lie about it by saying you care about your consumers. I.E. PR Spin, it only works on people not intelligent enough to understand what you did there.
I also agree about episodes not flowing together. But it's not a huge issue for me. Taking the time to properly program the engine to support such features as you mentioned would have been excellent. It does seem like Tell Tale kind of rushes their games out the door. But I suppose you'd have to to keep to the month-to-month deadline. And it was a risk in itself to start making P&C adventures again with S&M Season One, so I can forgive that. Nothing is stopping TTG from putting more thought into things now and raising the bar, though.
Are you saying game developers should operate under the assumption that any significant portion of the PC audience is unable to use their keyboard?
The majority of gamers aren't deaf either, and many games still have subtitles
But I still say it would be better than not having an option at all.
Well, the tone is set from the idiotic banter that goes on before hand. If I were to tell you that i was going to the store to get milk and cookies do you want some cookies... and I come home and tell you you can't have the ones I bought..... but I'm going to attempt to make better ones... which infact come out worse.... and you try them and tell me that they are worse. If I sat there till I was blue in the face telling you to try it... you'll like it.... or learn to like it over and over and over again...... isn't it time to just be blunt and say it?
And yes, I can forgive Season One of Sam n Max..... but now that Tell Tale is a success am I wrong for suggesting they should stop revamp and then continue? If your going to do something..... do it right.... unless it's a wing it type deal. Which SnM S1 was. Now that they have more than established themselves.... shouldn't they raise the bar of quality for the games they put out? Or are they gonna keep winging it with rushed games until the revenue stops coming in because their games just really aren't that stellar?
The goal in business is always to keep your consumers smiling... not make changes that upset your consumers and tell them to deal with it. This is what Eidos Montreal is in the progress of doing with Deus Ex 3, and what the industry in general has been doing for the duration of next generation platforms. It doesn't work..... Lucas Arts was hated... EA was hated, Ubisoft was hated... Crytek was hated..... Eidos Montreal is becoming hated...... And why? All because they all treat their consumers like trash, with unnecessary changes, building games for cross platform without taking the additional time to tweak it so it's best suited to the platform it's being played on (i.e. Shoddy Ports), and horrible PR telling the consumers to basically stick it.
It's just a bad ideology to have... one that has been proven to fail every time it's been used. Why do development studios continue to do it? Because less work = less stress.... which is also synonymous with lazy. Cutting corners also means more monetary status..... so being lazy is a reward until it comes crashing down on you. Everybody must always learn the hard way, instead of being wise and learning that slow and steady ALWAYS trumps fast and unreliable. Didn't the tortoise and the hair teach anybody anything?
P.S.
I really am sorry that I came a crossed so negative but I'm a die hard gamer and I'm genuinely sick of being walked on and treated as dirt and being told what has already been done is some how now impossible. I'm sorry, but Tell Tale ABSOLUTELY should of released a patch for season one of SNM to support widescreen. They just don't want to take the time to go that extra step to make the consumers smile.... and that just agitates me to the point that I don't even wanna purchase from them anymore...... but I need MI... :-(
Lose lose situation for me. And like I said, I don't mind the new control scheme.... I didn't mind Grim Fandago's control scheme or MI 4's for that matter. Never even bugged me the slightest.... I guess cuz I use the keyboard to "drive" my player in almost every game I play now anyway... I'm used to it. The thing I have a problem with is the lame excuses on why they can't do both when they absolutely can.
Take DX 3 for example, Deus Ex was always first person, and required detailed health managment. DX 3 now has forced contextual 3rd person elements such as a cover system and auto regenerating health. (Health was always an option in Deus Ex... there was an upgrade that gave you regen health for those that don't know.....)
Third person should be a toggle... but they said you couldn't do a cover system in First Person... it was Technically impossible to do in a game.... and I wrote up in detail how to implement it in First Person. Then KillZone 2 comes out with the exact system I detailed and gets REMARKABLE scores.
I'm sick of it.... when a super HIGH % of people don't like your idea... it's time to make it an option or remove it altogether... not tell people to deal with it. And these companies wonder why people choose to pirate games or simply not play them anymore.... then they make up dumb excuses as to why sales were low. See Tribes:Vengaence. The only reason sales were low is because they only advertised on tribalwar.com a Tribes community website. Then they said Tribes was no longer an interesting intellectual property to the consumer and pulled the plug on all future games.
It's that PR Spin.... the same spin that Tell Tale is giving us about this control scheme right now. It's just non sense. Nobody can ever admit till after the fact and it's too late that they made a mistake, they all let it ride on the ego and say oh you don't like it... deal with it. And ultimately that is the deciding factor on weather on not many people are going to buy from you again.
You do have some valid points, but you should try to make your points in a more polite manner... I think that would be more effective, too.
I do like the new controls.... and I've stated that. I don't like the excuses on why they refuse to make it an option. And I'm not particularly rude or mean, I'm just being a critic. There is no polite way to tell some one they are ugly is there? Didn't think so, it always sounds rude.... but I'm not being rude.
Text is deceiving. I promise you if you heard me speak my post you wouldn't think it was rude at all... but rather constructive criticism. Bar the exception when I said it was a cop out answer.... but I was being true... because it is... and I explained how and why. So with that taken in account... how could it be rude?
I just disagree... that's all.
And overboard.... I just don't see how I'm being overboard. I take the time to account and write a rebuttal to the answers that has come from tell tale. Should I have been more brief? It's not like I said F, U or something.... I didn't call anybody names or flame anybody.... I just wrote my opinion.
My point in short, is game design is about making a game the player WANTS to play. (No capital "WANTS" doesn't mean I'm yelling, it means I'm stressing my point) In order to achieve that, you have to tailor the game with knowing people aren't going to like certain things and incorporating alternative CHOICES for the player to make. Choices that influence how the end user would LIKE to play the game.... not its this way or GTFO. And that's what Tell Tale has done. Rather than seek a solution to the apparent problem... they shy away and offer excuses on how they can't give the consumer what the consumer wants. Game design is all about solving problems, not being apathetic and taking the easy way out and hoping it improves over time.... to me that is the definition of a cop-out.
In fact... that is the definition of cop-out in the dictionary.
"cop-out also cop·out (kpout)
n. Slang
1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
3. An excuse for inaction or evasion."
See definition 3, "An excuse for inaction or evasion." Instead of fixing the problem or trying to incorporate a way to give the user the best of both worlds... they choose to do nothing and offer excuses on why they HAVE to do it that way.
And excuse for inaction..... I.E. a cop-out.
I mean, it would be nice if Telltale could make an audio-only version of the game for PC users who don't have a monitor, too, but it would also be an outrageous and silly request for me to make. And it would be presumptuous of me to say it would be easy to implement.
Subtitles aren't solely there for deaf people. Also, the amount of deaf gamers is no doubt significantly higher than the amount of PC players who expect their games to accommodate the possibility of their setup not including a keyboard (which is zero).
Realistically speaking, it's an incredibly tiny effort.
So the amount of adventure gamers that would like an adventure game to be controlled without having to use the keyboard is zero. Uh-huh.
Changing the movement mechanic from direct control (a decision that heavily effects the composition of camera shots in the environments) to a pure point 'n click would be a matter of "putting a few arrows on the screen?" Realistically speaking, that statement is probably incredibly ignorant.
That is not what you said. You said that Telltale should accommodate an imaginary populous unable to use their keyboard. There's a difference between "can't" and "would prefer not to."
I hear what your saying... but it's not zero. Do you know how many people have prosthetic arms? More than Zero..... But the argument wasn't that they expect the developers to cater to them... but more that the Genre by nature DID cater to them indirectly. And making unnecessary changes to the genre that don't actually improve the game play from any perspective rules these people out for absolutely no reason.
IMO, it's unfair.... since it can totally be played by PNC, as FULL 3D games with 4 walls and over the shoulder cameras have done before. This is the sole reason they implemented Point and Click for City of Heroes. So people who couldn't use a keyboard could play with 100% functionality. The entire game can be played with the mouse, targeting... power casting, interaction..... movement.... They also had Point and Click OR Both button Drive. They had 2 different ways to play the entire game with a mouse.... PLUS the mouse and keyboard option.
So somebody out there DOES cater on PURPOSE to the users we are specifically talking about.... but the point was never that Tell Tale should.
The point I made was there are plenty of people who would prefer some sort of mouse controls as an option.
And the populous who cannot comfortably use their keyboard for gaming isn't imaginary, though I'll admit it's small.
Also, the way you stated it was - ...which is false. The number of adventure gamers that expect their adventure games to accommodate the possibility of playing without a keyboard is not zero.
I think that if they put a circle with a dot in the center, when you click and hold you could have analog control over your character based on a digital UI overlay with just the mouse. Just like an onscreen keyboard, except for an Analog Joystick. Why would this be realistically incredibly ignorant? It's actually a great Idea.... even better if it's analog with a full 360 Degree radius and a 10% deadzone.
And show the quote where anybody said "Tell Tale Should Accommodate one armed people."
Cuz I read the quote... and the guy said he knew a girl with one hand that loved adventure games.... so even if the populace is small... it's certainly not imaginary.... I would consider that an ignorant statement.
Which is an option that would require more than "incredibly tiny effort," is all I was getting at. You can say it's simple all you want, but, and don't take this the wrong way, but what do you (or any of us not involved with the tech) really know about it?
If it's the point you were trying to make, it's not the one you expressed.
Anyway, all I said was it would be nice if something like this was implemented. It's by far an optimal solution, but for some people, it would be better than nothing.
I was replying to your statement about the amount of people expecting a game to be possible to play without a keyboard was zero.
Well from some one who comes from a software development backround... it's incredibly easy. They already have a GUI that it clickable and every game they make they change the interface... so adding in new clickable GUI's is apparently a snap. Then all you do is make the clickable buttons on the UI send a call to the code assigned with W,A,S, and D. It could be implemented in under 30 minutes by one person. Maybe an hour or 2 for final art for the actual buttons... but I can't see an experienced 2D artist taking 2 hours to draw one arrow. (You only need one, then you copy and rotate it 3 times.)
If you have no experience in software... that's fine, but other people do. And it literally is as simple as making a clickable button that macros a key press.
(by the way this is not something bound by the engine code.... this is simply a coding language issue.... if you have binds to keys, all you do is call the same code to run that pushing the regular W or Up Arrow would call when you click the up arrow on the Onscreen GUI D-Pad.)
And personally I still think it wouldn't be a hindrance at all if it was an analog. It's already confirmed that the engine supports analogs since it's the same engine that is running the Wii-Ware Version, and presumably the Xbox 360 controller will work to... just like Wallace & Gromit. So it would be as simple as mapping the onscreen GUI to the same code that runs the analog. It would be like Phantom Hour Glass on the DS touching in a direction to move... Would work beautifully. And I fully support this Idea over PNC since they don't have to change the camera angles. There is no compromise... just a solution to the problem..... something Tell Tale has been telling us is impossible... hence why I called them Cop-Outs.
In just nearly 15 minutes Armakuni and I, came up with a solution ( A solution I might add that could be implemented in less than an hour) while they adamantly tell us to stick it you know where.....
What you propose sounds to me just like a point 'n click interface where the character follows the cursor around, which doesn't at all address the reasons Telltale stated they adopted direct control for W&G in the first place. Unless I misunderstand your intentions? What exactly is this "digital UI overlay" supposed to be?
Sounds like a quote you made up, so I don't expect to find it.
I specifically said what was imaginary was a populace that has the expectation that such a disability would be catered to by a game developer. If you're trying to say that I asserted that people with disabilities don't exist, then your imagination is a vast one indeed.
Ah, so you're simply saying there should be GUI arrows that represent the arrow keys. Your suggestion does sound easy to implement, but what it doesn't sound like is an acceptable control scheme.
Hi. I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Rose; I have serious physical issues and I, like other people I know, am grateful for this thing called "voice to text programming". Why? If we want to be strictly correct, yes. I can use the keyboard, and some days it's easy to.
Others? It's incredibly PAINFUL for me to do this. And the result is that I CANNOT use it for multiple days afterward.
I'm a member of a small population. But we're not imaginary.
I don't expect game controls to be designed with one-handed use in mind. But if a system exists that works well for the average player AND someone with keyboard issues can use, then I do think it makes sense to use the more-inclusive option. If the one-handed option is of poor-quality, then no. I don't expect, nor ask, that it be implemented just for those who need it. But if it works well, then yes, I would ask that at least in the future the option be considered.
I don't care about these controls, since as far as I'm aware there isn't even a firm confirmation of what scheme is in place. For me, using the keyboard in a WASD format is the difference between playing ten-ish minutes at a time instead of a half hour or more, but I can deal.
But yeah. There are those of us who can't use a keyboard without pain or at all--and I do know people who qualify as "at all" and use voice to text programs (and a mouse, if they can) only. Please don't dismiss our existence because you disagree with someone who brings it up.
I apologize if I sound short; I honestly don't mean to, and given the tone of several comments here already I'm working hard not to. But this is a sensitive issue for me, and being called a member of an "imaginary" population is something that happens more frequently than I'd like. People often cannot conceive that there are those of us who CANNOT do something that is an every-day task to most of the population that requires no effort or thought.
ETA: And, for the record: the movements required with a mouse put much less stress on both my wrists and fingers than typing, especially with a touch-pad, which is why one-handed/mouse controls are something I generally CAN use.
And as someone else pointed out - adventure games used to be a genre these people could expect to fully enjoy in the past. Which is one of the reasons it's such a shame this had to be changed.
Which is the only point I was making. If you think I called people with physical disabilities imaginary, you didn't read what I wrote.
Which is good, but also probably completely incidental.