Why should we torture ourselves playing with sucky keyboard controls when there is a better option ?
Adventure games have always been point & click and just because of some extra sales on the console market they are now gamepad or keyboard-mouse combination ?
[snip]
Bah. This kind of killed my good mood. There is going to be a new Monkey Island game and it will suck. Great
But the controls aren't tortuous or sucky. They're slightly awkard at worst. You can't seriously be saying the game is going to suck based entirely on fact that the controls involve using the keyboard. And adventure games haven't always been point and click. What about Kings Quest I?
Why should we torture ourselves playing with sucky keyboard controls when there is a better option ?
Adventure games have always been point & click and just because of some extra sales on the console market they are now gamepad or keyboard-mouse combination ?
(
Actually not quite right, text adventures have been relying on text input for a long time, only legend allowed a mixed approach, early sierra adventures were keyboard only despite being graphics, and many 3d adventures rely on keyboard mouse combinations, console adventures rely entirely on gamepads.
It is more along the lines of point and click being the dominant input for a long time, but that does not mean there were not many adventures doing it differently.
Alone in the dark (not the new one), Dreamfall, the two last Lucasarts adventures, asylum on the C64, the later Tex Murphy games and a bunch of others quickly come to my mind!
Point-and-click was good enough for Telltale before, and it seemed to be good enough for everyone else too, at least before the Xbox port. If the change is only for the benefit of those using gamepads, I don't see that retaining optional mouse-only support should be so difficult to arrange for the PC (and Wii?) version.
This is pulled from TTGYare who implemented the Wallace controls. This exact topic has been discussed in the Wallace forums.
"For point-and-click to work, it would require that we impose limits on the sort of camera shots our choreographers could use -the ground would always need to be in the shot."
I really want to make a video showing what the games would look like if they were point and click. Wallace would look completely different. No cameras looking over fences. No shots down hallways. Everything and the floor would have to be visible. It would look a lot more "gamey". Which is why we're adamant about giving this control method a real chance. The presentation is just nicer. And it might be tough to understand when we're talking about revitalizing a genre/franchise that is this old, because we're soo used to that stuff. But we aren't trying to make old LucasArts adventure games. All your guys' feedback is helpful though. We hear what you're saying and care deeply.
Actually not quite right, text adventures have been relying on text input for a long time, only legend allowed a mixed approach, early sierra adventures were keyboard only despite being graphics, and many 3d adventures rely on keyboard mouse combinations, console adventures rely entirely on gamepads.
It is more along the lines of point and click being the dominant input for a long time, but that does not mean there were not many adventures doing it differently.
Alone in the dark (not the new one), Dreamfall, the two last Lucasarts adventures, asylum on the C64, the later Tex Murphy games and a bunch of others quickly come to my mind!
True, but the thing to notice is that adventure games evolved from keyboard input to point-and-click. As you say, modern games have started moving back to direct input, but as far as I know it's generally agreed that this made them more awkward to control except on consoles. The controls are the only notable criticism I can remember being thrown at Grim Fandango.
That was actually one of the draws of Telltale's games for the past few years (not the only draw, obviously, but one of them). That they were bringing back the point-and-click adventure game in all its glory .
Edit: I posted the above before seeing NickTTG's post.
NickTTG: Thanks, that definitely helps to explain things. In Monkey Island's case I really feel that an open view where you can see the ground, in keeping with the original games, would be no bad thing. However, I'm pleased to hear that there is a real reason for the change other than gamepad support.
That was actually one of the draws of Telltale's games for the past few years (not the only draw, obviously, but one of them). That they were bringing back the point-and-click adventure game in all its glory .
I think the question is less point and click vs keyboard + mouse but more along the lines on how to support a mouse only input in a real 3d environment.
Face it point and click has its limits which are mostly dimension related especially when it comes to movement in a 3 dimensional space. As soon as you have floating cameras things become really nasty.
The only way I see it to support all this is via right mouse button == directional movement mode with movement cursors, like so many games especially in the rpg area do (however the trend there as well goes towards wsad for direct control)
I think the question is less point and click vs keyboard + mouse but more along the lines on how to support a mouse only input in a real 3d environment.
Face it point and click has its limits which are mostly dimension related especially when it comes to movement in a 3 dimensional space. As soon as you have floating cameras things become really nasty.
The only way I see it to support all this is via right mouse button == directional movement mode with movement cursors, like so many games especially in the rpg area do (however the trend there as well goes towards wsad for direct control)
Well, I guess the simple fact is that I'd prefer it 2D-style anyway (or better, actual 2D with beautifully-painted backgrounds ). Obviously not everyone will agree with me there, though (and actual 2D would probably be too expensive). So now that I understand that there is a real reason mouse-only support would be awkward to arrange, I'm not as bothered.
Edit: (It's still definitely my opinion that a Monkey Island sequel should be a point-and-click game, but at least I hopefully understand Telltale's reasoning now, and it's not illogical).
If in the past i used only one hand to do all the actions and now i have to use both hands to do the same actions, i dont know how that improves things.
This is exactly my main point. I play adventure games for entertainment, to sit back and enjoy myself leisurely. Now, I don't really care about the exact implementation of the controls, be it point'n'click or something else, but what I care about is the ability to actually sit back, maybe even do something else (eat dinner, chat with my friends?) while playing, like I would do if watching TV or a movie at home.
For this, I would really like to have a way to control the game with one hand - and that really only means mouse control. Point'n'click, drag, movement arrows at the sides of the screen, whatever, don't care, just give me the ability to relax and play the game. I don't want to be hunched over a keyboard, and while a gamepad would let you sit back, it's still not the same, it's slow and tedious (when compared to the mouse).
AND, implementing a one-handed control scheme also has the benefit on accessibility for many people with disabilities. I mean, adventure games are essentially casual games - collections of small puzzles. Even more so with episodic adventure games that you can actually finish in one sitting. You shouldn't hamper that with convoluted controls.
I don't think anyone's forcing you to do anything. You're stubbornness is forcing you to miss out on quality games.
Yes, well, you may think so, but, like we say in Finland, a customer's only vote is the one he gives with his wallet. I'm not spending the little free time I have on something that feels like a chore. I'll just play something else.
But since you can't handle WASD, I'm guessing you don't own a 360.
Your assertion makes no sense whatsoever, the 360 doesn't allow keyboard controls in games, does it? However, I do also play "hardcore" games, shooters and such that depend on skills and reflexes. But that is a different kind of experience, a more visceral one, that requires you to put all your concentration on what you're doing. Adventure games are not like that, even if they have a bad control scheme that doesn't let you sit back and enjoy yourself.
Even if you don't like the control method, it's not like the game isn't playable. I don't like quicktime events, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna boycot a game that uses them.
How about if someone makes quicktime events the only way to control their new game based on a franchise that you love and have grown up playing? We again come to the customer voting with his/her wallet.
Thanks Nick that is an explantaion I do understand. Have you guys tried to analyse clicks based on their relative position to the ground if no hotspot is clicked. I hope i can explain this correct.
for example: In this scene you have 2/3 of the screens foreground covered by a fence. You can walk around the whole area despite clicking on the fence all time. If there is a Hotspot over the position you want to walk to like in the W&G demo first room (cheese or chessboard are at the desired clicking area) there is a simple solution. right clicks move left clicks interact.
With this kind of movement there never has to be any ground visible. (This would have been a solution for sbcg4ap too. that darn table in strong sads room.)
A new Monkey Island is announced and the hottest topic on those forums is a discussion about how the game controls are gonna suck. I think that shows that TTG is about to do a mistake and should at least consider implementing additional mouse control to make everybody happy.
They're not gonna suck, and it's kind of to late to call off the project sense they've already set up pre-orders. If people won't bow down and accept using arrow keys then they shouldn't play, it's their choice/loss, and like I said earlier, they'll probably have both: "Arrow keys and Point and Click".
You can't seriously be saying the game is going to suck based entirely on fact that the controls involve using the keyboard.
I think I can (and I am talking only about my personal taste). MI4 sucked. Grim Fandango did. Whenever an adventure game lacked mouse control I did find no joy playing it. Actually reading the walkthrough of MI4 was as interesting as playing it.
I really want to make a video showing what the games would look like if they were point and click. Wallace would look completely different. No cameras looking over fences. No shots down hallways. Everything and the floor would have to be visible. It would look a lot more "gamey". Which is why we're adamant about giving this control method a real chance.
But the new fancy control method had its chance and it seems people did not like it. I understand your argumentation but as the game will be full 3D I guess it should be easily possible to add optional mouse control with different camera angles. I´d rather miss out on a good presentation than going through the horror of WSAD-movement in an adventure game or gamepad controls on PC. This is no ego-shooter, this is an adventure.
They're not gonna suck, and it's kind of to late to call off the project sense they've already set up pre-orders. If people won't bow down and accept using arrow keys then they shouldn't play, it's their choice/loss, and like I said earlier, they'll probably have both: "Arrow keys and Point and Click".
Who talks about calling off the project. This aint Lucas Arts where adventures got scrapped on a regular base
I just think that point & click controls are a must for adventure games and that they will be better off implementing those.
I kind of understand the arguments for keyboard use to give more freedom to camera placement, but even in W&G 9 times out of 10 there is a ground visible to click on, and for those rare occasions when there isn't, the character doesn't usually need to move anyway! It wouldn't be that hard to make mouse clicks on items in the scene move the character towards them, or on screen edges to exit that particular angle/scene. It's just far slicker to use a mouse than keys, which change function depending on the camera angle and feel akward in a moving 3rd person view.
Personally, I judge control systems on their own merits rather than on pre-conceived notions about what has worked well in the past. But maybe I'm nuts.
I'm not super happy with the keyboard controls, but I can live with it.
The biggest issue for me is that I don't have a qwerty keyboard, I have an azerty keyboard. WASD is unusable, which means I have to use the arrow keys. So I need my right hand on the keyboard AND on the mouse, which means I have to switch constantly.
Not fun.
So really, if you'd just add ZQSD for us azerty users, that'd help a bunch ;-)
I still think S&M was a way more intuitive game than W&G (where I keep forgetting the correct keys) but if you guys think you can make better games this way, go ahead :-)
I'll just say that I'm absolutely furious Telltale decided to stick to the horrible control scheme of W&G. I hate it. Instead of focusing on the puzzles, I felt I had to constantly babysit the character on the screen.
You want to sell your games on consoles? Fine, but why do the PC users have to suffer because of that? Every adventure developer under the sun is capable of implementing point and click interface, but not Telltale, no... You're obviously trying to be original, even though everything worked fine in Sam&Max.
Shame on you!
"For point-and-click to work, it would require that we impose limits on the sort of camera shots our choreographers could use -the ground would always need to be in the shot."
And this isn't true. It's all about how you implement it.
3d isn't steerable with a mouse? I wonder how you guys work with modellers. A mouse, point&click, taking advantage of the different input options, area sensitivity and game logic sensitivity, all this gives you quite some possibilities.
And even if it would be true, which i again strongly doubt, i would question this because content should be in focus and not the presentation. If you can have both, fine but not presentation at the cost of the content.
I really want to make a video showing what the games would look like if they were point and click. Wallace would look completely different. No cameras looking over fences. No shots down hallways. Everything and the floor would have to be visible. It would look a lot more "gamey". Which is why we're adamant about giving this control method a real chance. The presentation is just nicer. And it might be tough to understand when we're talking about revitalizing a genre/franchise that is this old, because we're soo used to that stuff. But we aren't trying to make old LucasArts adventure games. All your guys' feedback is helpful though. We hear what you're saying and care deeply.
I might have agreed if I would not know Sam&Max. You (Telltale) have given a perfect example how to design a great environment while keeping the comfortable "point & click" interface. - And believe me or not, but most people who play adventure games actually seem to like this more "gamey" look; especially if you want to address "my generation", i.e. people who have already played Monkey Island 1, 2 and 3 back in the last century.
Point & Click worked fine in old adventure games because they were 2D or behaved like so (even Sam & Max behave a lot 2D-ish).
I always believed that full 3D was the reason for keyboard controls on Grim Fandango and EMI. And although I too prefer p&c I have no problem with keyboard controls if that means TT and the players have a lot more freedom with what can be done with the game.
Past the initial awkwardness, I didn't really have an issue with W&G controls, and by episode 2 I really didn't mind them, although they probably still need a bit more polish.
But on a different note, I hope ToMI dialogue works like Sam & Max, as opposed to the context/Icon based systems of W&G/Strong Bad.
And this isn't true. It's all about how you implement it.
No there are situations where point and click does not work out, for instance points hidden by other items, floating camera etc...
but it still is possible to have a mouse only navigation in such situations (check out Gabriel Knight 3, which is a mouse only navigated adventure game with a free floating camera)
the problem in those cases simply is you have to get away from point and click navigation towards a directional navigation!
Personally, I judge control systems on their own merits rather than on pre-conceived notions about what has worked well in the past. But maybe I'm nuts.
Yes, but this is an interactive adventure game, a very specific genre that has been done many times in the past, and the consensus always seems to be that 'mouse only' is the most effective and enjoyable control system.
Personally I can't recall a single comment that praises keyboard controls in a game such as this. The best I've seen is "I can live with it", along with many strong opinions on how keyboard controls ruined a game.
The interface is what connects you to a game, it's arguable the single most important aspect that determines your enjoyment of it.
@werpu
If points are hidden by other objects you still have the possibility making usage of steerable area definitions or groups by raycasting beyond what's visible on the first hit, movement could be done by a mouse button combination or making usage of area sensitivity and so on, plenty of options.
Anyway let's see how it turns out, maybe just all will be fine.
I've just tried W&G with the Autohotkey-Script and it works great. There was no time "wasted" with "learning" the controls and I never had sth. in my mind like "F**K! I didn't want you to go THAT way!" - which was kinda always the case with standard-wasd-control.
I'd love to see ToMI with this kind of control implemented right from the start. IMHO
It really is a shame, when companies goes down this ignore path, because they are on the consoles, then we have to suffer with so bad controls, that it ruins the immersion and the game.
I wont support games with inferior controls, we need the same or evolution or deevolution.
Just a shame when a company with their big ego cant see when stuff doesnt work, so either stop making youre games to consoles, or implement both type of control schemes.
Guess we can count in next Sam and Max being ruined as well, oh well thats 2 games i wont be getting. Its scary because no matter how good a game is, its absolutely worthless, when the controls sucks, and youre new ones does, im sorry, but i would have fired the person(s) who made them.
what a shame, never thought Telltale would become like this, but thanks.
And dont even start on the "Mouse only" doesnt work, because it does.
Edit:
and as people say go back to the drawing board, stop making console games or pc games, or implement both schemes, a use on this very forum has shown it works much better even with mouse only.
So why are you lying? why are you so interessed in this inferior control system? the mind really does buggle, i mean yeah we users are demanding, stick to controls that actully work, and dont break the fun of the game immersion.
Personally I can't recall a single comment that praises keyboard controls in a game such as this. The best I've seen is "I can live with it", along with many strong opinions on how keyboard controls ruined a game.
Then here is mine. I really had troubles with it in Episode 1 since I played all other Telltale Adventures before that. After Wallace & Grommit Episode 1 I replayed Strong Bad and realised how often I would miss something /couldn't click on something because Strongbad was still walking.
Then Episode 2 was released and I realised that I never made unintended Walks across the screen because I clicked somwhere. And I really started to like the new controlls and realised that the game got so much less frustrating simply because of that.
If you don't like it go ahead and try the skript for W&G that implements Mousemovement again. It can be found in the W&G-Forums. I am sure there will be one for Monkey Island too. But I will stick to keyboard/mouse from now on.
@mi-Ka
Pain in the ass experience to me especially was the last chapter of W&G102. Were i knew what i wanted to try but it took several approaches until i was quick enough in setting up this with the steering.
Generally i found that the W&G steering method was less intuitive. It needed more time to select objects (huddling through lists and different objects instead of directly selecting the one i wanted. Movement hangs in certain situations, when you're crossing borders for instance. Some camera swaps felt suboptimal with the steering direction. With a mouse keyboard combination or controller you need two hands for what could be done better with one. Secondly you're sometimes running in infamous zigzags and bumping into objects. Honestly it needs a joypad.
Then Episode 2 was released and I realised that I never made unintended Walks across the screen because I clicked somwhere. And I really started to like the new controlls and realised that the game got so much less frustrating simply because of that.
I do strongly agree. But out of convenience I dont care about miss clicking and unintentionally walking across the screen when I can have mouse only input (additional? pretty please?).
I am going to be fine if not but well at least I do try.
I haven't played W&G so I'm not really familiar with that system. And I've already pre-ordered TMI regardless of control system because... well, it's MI. But this discussion does worry me.
As others have said, Grim Fandango and EMI were great games, and I enjoyed playing them -- but their controls did suck, and it would have been much better if they had been using the same kind of point & click interface as CMI. (Or Telltale's Sam & Max, for that matter.)
Direct movement control has its place, but usually only in FPS or third-person-over-the-shoulder style games (those with free cameras). I played Myst V in both point & click and free range modes, and I preferred the free range mode -- but it had a free camera.
It sounds like Telltale aren't going to put a free camera in TMI. If that's the case, then by definition it should be using point & click controls, not direct WASD/arrow controls. As I said, I've already preordered, and I'm fairly sure that I'll still be able to enjoy the game regardless, but when the controls don't match the game it does inevitably remove some of the enjoyment.
I haven't played W&G so I'm not really familiar with that system. And I've already pre-ordered TMI regardless of control system because... well, it's MI. But this discussion does worry me.
Then why not download the Wallace & Grommit Demo and see how the controls feel.
"For point-and-click to work, it would require that we impose limits on the sort of camera shots our choreographers could use -the ground would always need to be in the shot."
I totally believe you, that with the chosen camera angles in Wallace&Gromit you cannot reach every desired point with a mouseclick.
But even if you can't completely dismiss the direct control per WASD, perhaps you can keep it at a minimum:
When you click on a hotspot, Wallace or Gromit walk to the desired point and interact with it, so that's fine... 90% of the game I don't even have to use the keyboard (scrolling through the inventory with the mouse wheel works great).
But when you click on a point of the screen without hotspot, the avatar does... nothing. Can't you implement, that in these occasions, Wallace or Gromit or Guybrush walk to that blank spot (or as near as possible)?
Then 98% of the game could be played without touching the direction keys, and that would already be a BIG comfort.
And for the hard to reach corners and edges... perhaps holding the mouse button while the mouse cursor is on the edge of the actual screen? "Exit"-hotspots or symbols for situations when Wallace is looking over the fence?
AND, implementing a one-handed control scheme also has the benefit on accessibility for many people with disabilities.
Very true. Speaking as one (well, not very disabled, just my fingers can't be used for keyboards comfortably), adventure games was one of the final genres I could fully enjoy.
So when they say "wait and try it, it might not be so bad"... it's like telling a deaf gamer that an upcoming game without subtitles might not be so bad anyway, might get used to it
But this isn't very good as criticism of the control scheme as the number of people with disabilities is so low that it will have no economic impact at all. I wouldn't expect a company to take that into account.
But this isn't very good as criticism of the control scheme as the number of people with disabilities is so low that it will have no economic impact at all. I wouldn't expect a company to take that into account.
Well they should! You are a human with desires too.
I don't think so, it's a business and it has to operate like one. They can't tailor the game to meet everyone's various problems, especially when it's such a tiny user base. I don't think this can be held against them.
I just hope enough people will complain so they'll have to change it because of that, eventually.
Hi Nick! I understand the need to experiment new controls and the fact that it's easier for you guys to implement them for WII.
But here's a simple question: can't you guys just add a pc feature where the player can actually choose his favourite way of controlling the game? Mouse or mouse+keyboard.
I don't see it hard to implement nor an unfullfillable request. Please, at least think about it, it would make EVERYONE happier!
but usually only in FPS or third-person-over-the-shoulder style games (those with free cameras). I played Myst V in both point & click and free range modes, and I preferred the free range mode -- but it had a free camera.
Couldn't agree more here.
Developers usualy expose "more immersive gaming experience" as the main reason for their decision to use direct control system over p&c in adventure games.. but then give us some control over camera too.
Fixed (predetermined) camera works when you don't have a complete control over character. In point&click mode you tend to be much more forgiving when it comes to control over interactivity. But once you gain a direct control it just feels limiting (even claustrophobic) that you are unable to look around the place.
When I saw the newsletter, I was like "I'll be damn! These guys are really on to it." Then I rushed directly to the forums and into this thread to see if all "suggestions" about the W&G controls were productive after all. I'm sorry they were not.
As for listening to the fans... Here are 8 pages in 2 days about using pnp in adventure games. And I think there's more to come. That should count for something.
Anyway, I salute the initiative. If anyone were to continue the originals MI these days, that company is Telltale. However, I may have some reservations about the episodic style. I am used to think of MI as a large adventure of the size of a large book. I guess I'll have to see how it goes.
Then I rushed directly to the forums and into this thread to see if all "suggestions" about the W&G controls were productive after all. I'm sorry they were not.
Think about when they had to finalize the main concept for this game, if they plan to release the first episode in 5 weeks from now already. - This was probably already decided and implemented when the discussions about the controls started in the W&G thread end of March.
Wow... I just tried to play W&G using a contoller. Well to be exact my ps1 controller via a usb adapter. It does not work... I am trying to like the controls but I don't have a chance... If you Telltale games implement fucking cosole controls at least give me the ability to fucking use my damn controller.
<rant> whine whine but we cant implement point n click for all platforms whine whine and the new controls are soo much easier and better whine whine we dont want to listen to you whine whine.....
yeah why change fucking pnc to something that does not work properly. there isn't even a keymapping section and don't you tell me I should use a autohotkey programm or key2pad or smth. I really defend your point of trying to get a broad audience and changing the controle scheme even though i dont like it but at least make it friggin work... </rant>
I am annoyed... this scheme is also making its way to S&M season 3 btw
This thread is hugely depressing, although I am amused by the accusation that WASD controls are in some way 'dumbing down' for the consoles. What does that even mean?!
The idea that consoles are bereft of intelligence, but the noble PC - with it's rubber chicken pulley puzzles - is the one true bastion of reason and intelligence.
In an effort to redress the balance, I'll refuse to buy the game if they 'dumb down' the controls and take a big step back to p+c*.
*Obviously I won't really, I just want to join in with the hysteria.
I understand you guys, I also dislike the keyboard controls...
BUT (And is a big one)
It will never spoil the experience of a GA game.... it just can't, because a GA is not about the controls, heck, is not even about any sort of gameplay.... is about the story, the dialogs, the fun and the puzzles....
Grim Fandango would have NOT been better, or worse, with a point&click control scheme.... would have been the same awesomely written and amazingly designed game.....
I'm not exactly worried about this, and the people who say "I won't play any keyboard driven game" should think about their priorities again...
This thread is hugely depressing, although I am amused by the accusation that WASD controls are in some way 'dumbing down' for the consoles. What does that even mean?!
Comments
But the controls aren't tortuous or sucky. They're slightly awkard at worst. You can't seriously be saying the game is going to suck based entirely on fact that the controls involve using the keyboard. And adventure games haven't always been point and click. What about Kings Quest I?
Actually not quite right, text adventures have been relying on text input for a long time, only legend allowed a mixed approach, early sierra adventures were keyboard only despite being graphics, and many 3d adventures rely on keyboard mouse combinations, console adventures rely entirely on gamepads.
It is more along the lines of point and click being the dominant input for a long time, but that does not mean there were not many adventures doing it differently.
Alone in the dark (not the new one), Dreamfall, the two last Lucasarts adventures, asylum on the C64, the later Tex Murphy games and a bunch of others quickly come to my mind!
This is pulled from TTGYare who implemented the Wallace controls. This exact topic has been discussed in the Wallace forums.
"For point-and-click to work, it would require that we impose limits on the sort of camera shots our choreographers could use -the ground would always need to be in the shot."
I really want to make a video showing what the games would look like if they were point and click. Wallace would look completely different. No cameras looking over fences. No shots down hallways. Everything and the floor would have to be visible. It would look a lot more "gamey". Which is why we're adamant about giving this control method a real chance. The presentation is just nicer. And it might be tough to understand when we're talking about revitalizing a genre/franchise that is this old, because we're soo used to that stuff. But we aren't trying to make old LucasArts adventure games. All your guys' feedback is helpful though. We hear what you're saying and care deeply.
That was actually one of the draws of Telltale's games for the past few years (not the only draw, obviously, but one of them). That they were bringing back the point-and-click adventure game in all its glory
Edit: I posted the above before seeing NickTTG's post.
NickTTG: Thanks, that definitely helps to explain things. In Monkey Island's case I really feel that an open view where you can see the ground, in keeping with the original games, would be no bad thing. However, I'm pleased to hear that there is a real reason for the change other than gamepad support.
I think the question is less point and click vs keyboard + mouse but more along the lines on how to support a mouse only input in a real 3d environment.
Face it point and click has its limits which are mostly dimension related especially when it comes to movement in a 3 dimensional space. As soon as you have floating cameras things become really nasty.
The only way I see it to support all this is via right mouse button == directional movement mode with movement cursors, like so many games especially in the rpg area do (however the trend there as well goes towards wsad for direct control)
Edit: (It's still definitely my opinion that a Monkey Island sequel should be a point-and-click game, but at least I hopefully understand Telltale's reasoning now, and it's not illogical).
For this, I would really like to have a way to control the game with one hand - and that really only means mouse control. Point'n'click, drag, movement arrows at the sides of the screen, whatever, don't care, just give me the ability to relax and play the game. I don't want to be hunched over a keyboard, and while a gamepad would let you sit back, it's still not the same, it's slow and tedious (when compared to the mouse).
AND, implementing a one-handed control scheme also has the benefit on accessibility for many people with disabilities. I mean, adventure games are essentially casual games - collections of small puzzles. Even more so with episodic adventure games that you can actually finish in one sitting. You shouldn't hamper that with convoluted controls.
That's just my two cents.
Yes, well, you may think so, but, like we say in Finland, a customer's only vote is the one he gives with his wallet. I'm not spending the little free time I have on something that feels like a chore. I'll just play something else.
Your assertion makes no sense whatsoever, the 360 doesn't allow keyboard controls in games, does it? However, I do also play "hardcore" games, shooters and such that depend on skills and reflexes. But that is a different kind of experience, a more visceral one, that requires you to put all your concentration on what you're doing. Adventure games are not like that, even if they have a bad control scheme that doesn't let you sit back and enjoy yourself.
How about if someone makes quicktime events the only way to control their new game based on a franchise that you love and have grown up playing? We again come to the customer voting with his/her wallet.
I actually did pick them both up now that they were $5 a pop. Though they're really not on the top of my to-play -list.
for example: In this scene you have 2/3 of the screens foreground covered by a fence. You can walk around the whole area despite clicking on the fence all time. If there is a Hotspot over the position you want to walk to like in the W&G demo first room (cheese or chessboard are at the desired clicking area) there is a simple solution. right clicks move left clicks interact.
With this kind of movement there never has to be any ground visible. (This would have been a solution for sbcg4ap too. that darn table in strong sads room.)
I hope i made myself clear.
They're not gonna suck, and it's kind of to late to call off the project sense they've already set up pre-orders. If people won't bow down and accept using arrow keys then they shouldn't play, it's their choice/loss, and like I said earlier, they'll probably have both: "Arrow keys and Point and Click".
That makes it any better ?
I think I can (and I am talking only about my personal taste). MI4 sucked. Grim Fandango did. Whenever an adventure game lacked mouse control I did find no joy playing it. Actually reading the walkthrough of MI4 was as interesting as playing it.
But that was many years ago. And as it was 2D it was a lot better than what MI5 is gonna be (talking about controls only).
But the new fancy control method had its chance and it seems people did not like it. I understand your argumentation but as the game will be full 3D I guess it should be easily possible to add optional mouse control with different camera angles. I´d rather miss out on a good presentation than going through the horror of WSAD-movement in an adventure game or gamepad controls on PC. This is no ego-shooter, this is an adventure.
Who talks about calling off the project. This aint Lucas Arts where adventures got scrapped on a regular base
I just think that point & click controls are a must for adventure games and that they will be better off implementing those.
The biggest issue for me is that I don't have a qwerty keyboard, I have an azerty keyboard. WASD is unusable, which means I have to use the arrow keys. So I need my right hand on the keyboard AND on the mouse, which means I have to switch constantly.
Not fun.
So really, if you'd just add ZQSD for us azerty users, that'd help a bunch ;-)
I still think S&M was a way more intuitive game than W&G (where I keep forgetting the correct keys) but if you guys think you can make better games this way, go ahead :-)
You want to sell your games on consoles? Fine, but why do the PC users have to suffer because of that? Every adventure developer under the sun is capable of implementing point and click interface, but not Telltale, no... You're obviously trying to be original, even though everything worked fine in Sam&Max.
Shame on you!
And this isn't true. It's all about how you implement it.
3d isn't steerable with a mouse? I wonder how you guys work with modellers. A mouse, point&click, taking advantage of the different input options, area sensitivity and game logic sensitivity, all this gives you quite some possibilities.
And even if it would be true, which i again strongly doubt, i would question this because content should be in focus and not the presentation. If you can have both, fine but not presentation at the cost of the content.
I always believed that full 3D was the reason for keyboard controls on Grim Fandango and EMI. And although I too prefer p&c I have no problem with keyboard controls if that means TT and the players have a lot more freedom with what can be done with the game.
Past the initial awkwardness, I didn't really have an issue with W&G controls, and by episode 2 I really didn't mind them, although they probably still need a bit more polish.
But on a different note, I hope ToMI dialogue works like Sam & Max, as opposed to the context/Icon based systems of W&G/Strong Bad.
No there are situations where point and click does not work out, for instance points hidden by other items, floating camera etc...
but it still is possible to have a mouse only navigation in such situations (check out Gabriel Knight 3, which is a mouse only navigated adventure game with a free floating camera)
the problem in those cases simply is you have to get away from point and click navigation towards a directional navigation!
Yes, but this is an interactive adventure game, a very specific genre that has been done many times in the past, and the consensus always seems to be that 'mouse only' is the most effective and enjoyable control system.
Personally I can't recall a single comment that praises keyboard controls in a game such as this. The best I've seen is "I can live with it", along with many strong opinions on how keyboard controls ruined a game.
The interface is what connects you to a game, it's arguable the single most important aspect that determines your enjoyment of it.
If points are hidden by other objects you still have the possibility making usage of steerable area definitions or groups by raycasting beyond what's visible on the first hit, movement could be done by a mouse button combination or making usage of area sensitivity and so on, plenty of options.
Anyway let's see how it turns out, maybe just all will be fine.
I'd love to see ToMI with this kind of control implemented right from the start. IMHO
I wont support games with inferior controls, we need the same or evolution or deevolution.
Just a shame when a company with their big ego cant see when stuff doesnt work, so either stop making youre games to consoles, or implement both type of control schemes.
Guess we can count in next Sam and Max being ruined as well, oh well
what a shame, never thought Telltale would become like this, but thanks.
And dont even start on the "Mouse only" doesnt work, because it does.
Edit:
and as people say go back to the drawing board, stop making console games or pc games, or implement both schemes, a use on this very forum has shown it works much better even with mouse only.
So why are you lying? why are you so interessed in this inferior control system? the mind really does buggle, i mean yeah we users are demanding, stick to controls that actully work, and dont break the fun of the game immersion.
Then here is mine. I really had troubles with it in Episode 1 since I played all other Telltale Adventures before that. After Wallace & Grommit Episode 1 I replayed Strong Bad and realised how often I would miss something /couldn't click on something because Strongbad was still walking.
Then Episode 2 was released and I realised that I never made unintended Walks across the screen because I clicked somwhere. And I really started to like the new controlls and realised that the game got so much less frustrating simply because of that.
If you don't like it go ahead and try the skript for W&G that implements Mousemovement again. It can be found in the W&G-Forums. I am sure there will be one for Monkey Island too. But I will stick to keyboard/mouse from now on.
Pain in the ass experience to me especially was the last chapter of W&G102. Were i knew what i wanted to try but it took several approaches until i was quick enough in setting up this with the steering.
Generally i found that the W&G steering method was less intuitive. It needed more time to select objects (huddling through lists and different objects instead of directly selecting the one i wanted. Movement hangs in certain situations, when you're crossing borders for instance. Some camera swaps felt suboptimal with the steering direction. With a mouse keyboard combination or controller you need two hands for what could be done better with one. Secondly you're sometimes running in infamous zigzags and bumping into objects. Honestly it needs a joypad.
I do strongly agree. But out of convenience I dont care about miss clicking and unintentionally walking across the screen when I can have mouse only input (additional? pretty please?).
I am going to be fine if not but well at least I do try.
As others have said, Grim Fandango and EMI were great games, and I enjoyed playing them -- but their controls did suck, and it would have been much better if they had been using the same kind of point & click interface as CMI. (Or Telltale's Sam & Max, for that matter.)
Direct movement control has its place, but usually only in FPS or third-person-over-the-shoulder style games (those with free cameras). I played Myst V in both point & click and free range modes, and I preferred the free range mode -- but it had a free camera.
It sounds like Telltale aren't going to put a free camera in TMI. If that's the case, then by definition it should be using point & click controls, not direct WASD/arrow controls. As I said, I've already preordered, and I'm fairly sure that I'll still be able to enjoy the game regardless, but when the controls don't match the game it does inevitably remove some of the enjoyment.
Then why not download the Wallace & Grommit Demo and see how the controls feel.
http://www.telltalegames.com/wallaceandgromit
I totally believe you, that with the chosen camera angles in Wallace&Gromit you cannot reach every desired point with a mouseclick.
But even if you can't completely dismiss the direct control per WASD, perhaps you can keep it at a minimum:
When you click on a hotspot, Wallace or Gromit walk to the desired point and interact with it, so that's fine... 90% of the game I don't even have to use the keyboard (scrolling through the inventory with the mouse wheel works great).
But when you click on a point of the screen without hotspot, the avatar does... nothing. Can't you implement, that in these occasions, Wallace or Gromit or Guybrush walk to that blank spot (or as near as possible)?
Then 98% of the game could be played without touching the direction keys, and that would already be a BIG comfort.
And for the hard to reach corners and edges... perhaps holding the mouse button while the mouse cursor is on the edge of the actual screen? "Exit"-hotspots or symbols for situations when Wallace is looking over the fence?
So when they say "wait and try it, it might not be so bad"... it's like telling a deaf gamer that an upcoming game without subtitles might not be so bad anyway, might get used to it
But this isn't very good as criticism of the control scheme as the number of people with disabilities is so low that it will have no economic impact at all. I wouldn't expect a company to take that into account.
Well they should! You are a human with desires too.
I just hope enough people will complain so they'll have to change it because of that, eventually.
But here's a simple question: can't you guys just add a pc feature where the player can actually choose his favourite way of controlling the game? Mouse or mouse+keyboard.
I don't see it hard to implement nor an unfullfillable request. Please, at least think about it, it would make EVERYONE happier!
Couldn't agree more here.
Developers usualy expose "more immersive gaming experience" as the main reason for their decision to use direct control system over p&c in adventure games.. but then give us some control over camera too.
Fixed (predetermined) camera works when you don't have a complete control over character. In point&click mode you tend to be much more forgiving when it comes to control over interactivity. But once you gain a direct control it just feels limiting (even claustrophobic) that you are unable to look around the place.
As for listening to the fans... Here are 8 pages in 2 days about using pnp in adventure games. And I think there's more to come. That should count for something.
Anyway, I salute the initiative. If anyone were to continue the originals MI these days, that company is Telltale. However, I may have some reservations about the episodic style. I am used to think of MI as a large adventure of the size of a large book. I guess I'll have to see how it goes.
<rant> whine whine but we cant implement point n click for all platforms whine whine and the new controls are soo much easier and better whine whine we dont want to listen to you whine whine.....
yeah why change fucking pnc to something that does not work properly. there isn't even a keymapping section and don't you tell me I should use a autohotkey programm or key2pad or smth. I really defend your point of trying to get a broad audience and changing the controle scheme even though i dont like it but at least make it friggin work... </rant>
I am annoyed... this scheme is also making its way to S&M season 3 btw
The idea that consoles are bereft of intelligence, but the noble PC - with it's rubber chicken pulley puzzles - is the one true bastion of reason and intelligence.
In an effort to redress the balance, I'll refuse to buy the game if they 'dumb down' the controls and take a big step back to p+c*.
*Obviously I won't really, I just want to join in with the hysteria.
BUT (And is a big one)
It will never spoil the experience of a GA game.... it just can't, because a GA is not about the controls, heck, is not even about any sort of gameplay.... is about the story, the dialogs, the fun and the puzzles....
Grim Fandango would have NOT been better, or worse, with a point&click control scheme.... would have been the same awesomely written and amazingly designed game.....
I'm not exactly worried about this, and the people who say "I won't play any keyboard driven game" should think about their priorities again...
This: