Actually, I don't see anything about this being planned for the Xbox or PS3... if not the "needed for console users" argument falls apart, since Strong Bad and Sam & Max work fine on the Wii. In theory it'd slightly expand the audience to the 5 people who don't own a nunchuck.
It looks like they're planning for the future, when Tales will (eventually) debut on the other consoles as well.
I don't know much about the control scheme to W&G, so I cannot speak on that.
But I've been a fan of adventure games for a long time. While there's been some things that are hard to swallow, I've started to accept that adventure games can't just be the voiceless point to walk masterpieces they were. While I'm sure there's plenty of us who'd play something like that, I can't imagine many who'd pay the money for it. Plus how are you ever going to attract new people into the genre if you're just using the same old interface? Take for an example, Mario. Would he have lasted if all he did was jump? He eventually developed into a lot more than that with each iteration as the technology got better and better.
I'm not a big fan of the keyboard either (for games in general) but I imagine Telltale heard your complaints and are taking them into consideration when they design new control schemes. I'm sure they'd love to hear how they could make the configuration BETTER, but going back to what was used for years and years just because it worked back then isn't an option for them.
And really, you don't have to buy the game or any other telltale thing that comes out. You'd be a fool, but that would be your own choice. Staying here to argue about what else Telltale has done wrong makes it seem like you're whining more than you're giving feedback that they'll actually listen to (which just hurts all of us)
My suggestion, wait for the demo. You don't know how the control scheme is going to be until the game is out anyway.
Seeing how TTG has not officially stated MI will not have the annoying W&G controls, I can only assume it will. That just baffles me. It would take 10 minutes of programming to add the ability to select the edges of the screen to move in that direction.
The script I wrote to add mouse movement to W&G is the only way W&G was playable for me.
As I state in a W&G discussion... W&G keyboard controls blow the whole game for me. There is no way that is more immersive. Using the joystick is much better, but then you have the issue of selecting the items you want to use. Using controls to toggle between selectable items totally blows the theory of the controls being more immersive. TTG needs to do a better job of having the players head indicate what item is nearby. At least Grim Fandango did a good job of that.
So again I say, at least add edge of the screen movement controls. I would also like to see my hold mouse button down and move the mouse to move in that direction added, but that is just me. Best would be to add real point and click, but that will never happen any more it seems, so at least add a compromise for everyone here that believes you are wrong in your new control scheme.
Most likely I will have to update my script to support all the new TT games. So I will probably miss out on the pre-order special jacket. Unless I see a demo of how bad the controls are, I will not order.
Not to mention, I want to know if MI is even more rushed and buggy then W&G.
Luffy: Though some of us may prefer a traditional control scheme (traditional controls didn't stop New Super Mario Bros. from becoming a top-selling game, by the way ), the main question is not whether the controls are new, but whether they're awkward/annoying. Even in something like Grim Fandango, which is an excellent game, the controls are unnecessarily cumbersome on a PC. They may be better suited to a console controller than point-and-click, but it's always a pity when PC (and Wii?) versions of games are handicapped for the benefit of a console version. (See Deus Ex 2)
Uhm, SOOoooO!!, the keyboard control scheme was because the cinematic experience from W&G and all that mumbo jumbo and the cinematic camera angles to be similar to THAT franchise.
Monkey Island however used the mouse in the majority of the games (except the last one and everyone hated it because of that) and was never exactly "cinematic"... what is the argument about using keyboard instead of the mouse this time?
Unfortunately I just feel you guys stumbled on a rock and started rolling down hill.
Loved the news about you guys making Monkey Island (never expected it), but now you guys strike a low blow with the keyboard scheme again?.
I just feel very frustrated again right now thank you very much.
If people could try and be less stubborn and give us some real feedback, I think a lot more would get done to help.
What is the problem with the feedback you've been getting? It's neither unrealistic nor vague to say that Sam&Max' control scheme was pretty good, and W&G was a huge step backward. What else do you need to know? You know what you did in Sam&Max worked very well, and you implemented it before, so where's the problem? Do you expect us to invent something completely new? Why?
(And yes, here's your obligatory "I won't buy this either, after skipping W&G because of the controls too".)
I'm sure they'd love to hear how they could make the configuration BETTER, but going back to what was used for years and years just because it worked back then isn't an option for them.
Maybe so, but to me that sounds fairly silly. The only valid reason to change something is if the change is an improvement. If it turns out that it's not, there's nothing wrong with admitting a mistake and going back.
I'm not in the "this-ruins-the-game" camp, but I am in the "this-dampens-the-news" camp. Direct control has existed for way too long to be considered "change" (obviously, the early Sierra games were keyboard-controlled ) And personally, I enjoy the somewhat side-on look that the Sam and Max and Strong Bad games have had so far. Part of the charm of a great point-and-click adventure is that the worlds are laid out like paintings.
While I accepted the decision in Wallace and Gromit's case, it was because it fit the license, and not because it evolved the genre. If anything, direct control here feels like a regression.
Yes, Chuck, the only reason you're doing Monkey Island is because someone in the forums requested it.
Rooms in Wallace& Gromit only have three walls.
Noone is so stupid as to expect any company, writer or hot-dog seller to implement every bit of feedback they get on their businesses.
Much of the feedback comes from 11 year olds and hardcore geeks, and if those were implemented, it would make the product just right for that person, and crappy for anyone else. The most blatant example is someone crying that, in The Lord of the Rings Online, it only takes 5 minutes to go from Bree to Weathertop, when it should take DAYS, like it says in the book.
Not the case with these controls which the majority has stated over and over again that they don't like.
Dammit! Can you guys not get that if we bother posting the same thing again and again is because we do like you and your products?
Can you guys not see that if this was any other company we simply wouldn't buy the games? Yet we still do! Even if we don't like the way they are played anymore.
But patience and loyalty wears thin, and you obviously feel this is the way to go.
Fine.
Just don't try turning the tables and tell us that we are the unreasonable ones here.
Gee, please calm down it is just a game. Besides that to my personal experience the control scheme is fine as soon as you omit the mouse and play with a gamepad. I played Wallace and Grommit that way, having my notebook computer in the living room sitting in the couch, and playing with the pad. I had more comfort than with a mouse only sitting in front of my work computer playing it :-)
All I can say who dont like the new control scheme, try do use it with a gamepad it is almost an eye opener how good it works.
But besides that, I have not seen too many things in W&C outside of having to support the XBOX which would not work with a mouse only interface.
My personal guess is in the long run it would be wise to add it as a third option. I personally however would hate to go back to mouse only being used now to the gamepad, but I am probably the minority here!
I don't know much about the control scheme to W&G, so I cannot speak on that.
...
My suggestion, wait for the demo. You don't know how the control scheme is going to be until the game is out anyway.
This is something which really gets on my nerves and prevents me from solely screaming Hurray about MI from TTG (although i really admire the things Jake wrote):
I disagree on that the new steering in W&G is a benefit.
I'm faster and it's more intuitive going with a steering like in Sam&Max than it is going with a steering like it's implemented in W&G and i tried both, playing it with a mouse/keyboard combination as well as playing it solely with a Xbox360 controller.
The consoles are once again watering the gaming experience for the computers if you're giving up mouse point&click, if the new control works like in W&G.
Btw, because it got noted before just as a note, i think it's completely valid for a customer not to purchase a product as in the end this is the only way he can show a company if he is fine with a certain direction/decision a company is taking or if he's not.
Again, how about an option to toggle keypresses... press once to start walking, press again to stop... anyone who's played an older Sierra games know what I mean.
That can't be very hard to implement, even just one month prior to release.
I personally however would hate to go back to mouse only being used now to the gamepad, but I am probably the minority here!
I wouldn't say I'd hate going back to mouse only, but once you play with an Xbox Controller, Wiimote+Nunchuck, or gamepad, you really realize how much nicer it is. On Monkey I walk Guybrush around using my keyboard, and while I'd rather have a gamepad, its never a problem for me. I still laugh out loud, I can navigate places perfectly fine, and the environments still look as awesome... Each control method has its problems. I can't tell you how many times I've watched Sam walk all the way across an environment after my girlfriend accidentally clicked on a wall in Sam and Max. She can control Wallace on XBLA with ease though. Sure she might walk herself into a corner once in a while, but dude... haha come on. its a video game. i don't see what the big deal is. we're all in this together. we all wanna make/play a fun thing. I'm sorry if some people don't like the direct control stuff. But its currently something we're trying out and have been getting a positive reaction from people playing with a joypad. I've heard there are people playing with other control ideas for pc, but I can't confirm that.
I just hope people can at least give the first episode a shot. You'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't. Its got some fun puzzles, funny dialog, and its Monkey...
I can't tell you how many times I've watched Sam walk all the way across an environment after my girlfriend accidentally clicked on a wall in Sam and Max.
Luffy: Though some of us may prefer a traditional control scheme (traditional controls didn't stop New Super Mario Bros. from becoming a top-selling game, by the way ),
But new Super Mario Bros did not use the mouse, sorry I could not resist.
My personal guess to the mouse problem is:
Pathfinding probably is way harder with the current angle system so it is probably out of the way and it is rather easy to do it with a gamepad because there is none!
Many 3d games bypass the problem by adding movement via directional arrows tiggered by the right mouse button. Which means you trigger the right mousbutton and move the mouse slightly into the direction you want your character to go, a directional angle shows up and the character moves that way.
Gamepads in my opinion are for pure 3d movement preferrable, a due to the fact that with one analog stick you control your character with the second you can control the camera angle, but that assumes you have a free floating camera.
I can't tell you how many times I've watched Sam walk all the way across an environment after my girlfriend accidentally clicked on a wall in Sam and Max.
That was an obvious bug/design flaw, though, at least in Strong Bad (I didn't notice it in Sam & Max, maybe because I played it on the PC and had more precise control. I played Strong Bad on Wiiware). In any other point-and-click game, clicking on a wall would make your character walk over to near that part of the wall, not off into the distance.
I agree that a manual control scheme is probably a vast improvement if you need to use an Xbox-style controller but, if a mouse is available, clicking things is not exactly difficult. Or pointing at things on the Wii, wall glitch aside.
But new Super Mario Bros did not use the mouse, sorry I could not resist.
I was responding to the earlier comment: "Plus how are you ever going to attract new people into the genre if you're just using the same old interface? Take for an example, Mario. Would he have lasted if all he did was jump?".
My point was simply that you don't always need to change the control scheme to make a popular game. Super Mario Bros. 2 received criticism for changing things too much*, and returned to a more traditional control scheme for Super Mario Bros. 3, one of the best-selling games of all time. New Super Mario was released decades later with Super Mario 1-style controls and was still successful.
Obviously the control scheme was not the major factor in the success of these games, and in fact I like Mario 2. Just saying that something being 'new' doesn't make it a good idea, and something being tried & true doesn't make it bad .
A mouse is way better accelerated and more precise and dealt with especially in an analog way than any console controller i have used so far, simply due to how it's done technically. And there is quite some room for improvement if you would like to enhance it both from utilising the hardware's abilities as well as what you could tweak/add on the logic side.
The one big advantage the mouse also has is that it' simply available on almost every
computersystem and people are used to it as well.
A joypad controller has the advantages that it offers more input possibilities on a small combined space and that it allows you also more multiple input than a mouse does but i doubt that this is really needed for an adventure.
Have you guys did some serious research in what you could do with a mouse steering?
Maybe so, but to me that sounds fairly silly. The only valid reason to change something is if the change is an improvement. If it turns out that it's not, there's nothing wrong with admitting a mistake and going back.
The problem is with the part I bolded, though. Unless, say, Telltale's inbox is flooded with thousands upon thousands of emails decrying the new control scheme for MI, there's no way they're going to change it. Making their new games "console friendly" while still doing what they can to make the controls intuitive for PCs seems to be Telltale's goal from here on out. So simply "going back" isn't an option. At all.
What is constructive at this point, though, are suggestions for improving the current W&G/future MI controls. Basically:
The only valid reason to change something is if the change is an improvement. If it turns out that it's not, there's nothing wrong with admitting a mistake and asking for suggestions on how to turn said change into an improvement.
... instead of just reiterating "Bring back point-and-click!" ad nauseum. I'm speaking as someone who prefers point-and-click too -- compared with the current W&G keyboard controls, that is. The room for improvement exists. That's what we should zero in on, in a way that stands to help Telltale improve the new controls until they've become as intuitive* as humanly possible.
And personally, I enjoy the somewhat side-on look that the Sam and Max and Strong Bad games have had so far. Part of the charm of a great point-and-click adventure is that the worlds are laid out like paintings.
That's ... a really interesting point! Now that I think about it, just about all of the Sam & Max environments look and feel very much like interactive dioramas. (Whoa, wait -- SAM & MAX 205 SPOILER AHOY! --
so wouldn't that imply that the Personal Hells may in fact be oblique yet incredibly meta references to the nature of many adventure game environments?! A huge stretch, but still ... !
)
One last point: Several people have mentioned how the direct controls are somewhat justified in W&G due to its cinematic nature, while the same can't be said for MI. The Monkey Island games may have never offered a super-cinematic experience, true. But with these particular controls -- or at least something close to them -- being used here, why not now? I have no idea if that's what Telltale's planning to do in this case. But if so, I can't help but think of the added sense of cinema as a boon.
--
* Which isn't to say that the W&G controls lack any intuitiveness. In fact, I tend to think they're quite intuitive -- just significantly less so than point-and-click. So long as you're not playing W&G one-handed on a number pad, point-and-click will always have that edge over any two-handed keyboard/mouse configuration. But playing two-handed doesn't have to be the Kiss of Death either, IMO.
Duh just giving this information in case someone didn't know from the console side:
The Secret of Monkey Island was released on Sega's Mega-CD (Sega CD in the US) system that attached to the Sega Megadrive 16-bit (Sega Genesis in the US) system. It also supported the Sega Mega-mouse input device sold separately (a two button mouse) but could be played with the joypad too. Both ways worked flawlessly. I don't like IF the controls are sacrificed on the console altar but gonna play it anyway.
Hopefully this is not another decision based on consoles...seen them more than enough already.
Edit:
I have to edit my post to bring some other opinions to this too.
Even if the controls weren't mouse-driven, I'm totally gonna support TTG for giving new MI games...this is just something unbelievable that I didn't think would happen ever. This is unbeliavable news. The price of the game is nothing..already pre-ordered.
And also feedback: moving the character with the keyboard would be bad, because:
- clicking anywhere with the mouse you want is far more easier and fast
- turning on the keyboard was slow and annoying in Grim Fandango and MI4
- you can easily get stuck or don't find the best route with the kb, with mouse you could just point to a place and your character would go there or not.
Come to think of it, I suppose part of the problem is that if you're going to direct control, it seems like you should go all the way ala Psychonauts or something. Into an actual 3rd-person game where you run and jump about. I think that'd be an awful idea for Monkey Island, but direct control within a more point-and-click-style setup just seems incongruous and unnecessary.
Yes, King's Quest games/etc. have always been direct-control, but that was also always quite awkward, and point-and-click controls were invented to specifically improve upon that.
Come to think of it, I suppose part of the problem is if you're going to direct control it seems like you should go all the way, ala Psychonauts or something. Into an actual 3rd-person game where you run and jump about. I think that'd be an awful idea for Monkey Island, but direct control within a more point-and-click-style setup just seems incongruous and unnecessary.
Yes, Kings Quest games/etc. have always been direct-control, but that was also always quite awkward, and point-and-click controls were invented to specifically improve upon that.
I agree here too, full 3d ala psychonauts or tomb raider would be neat, but that would mean to force people into a gamepad, because face it games like tomb raider or psychonauts do not scale well into mouse keyboard combinations because of the floating camera problem!
(Believe me I have been through that in games many times and have settled for a gamepad for exactly those games, I even remapped Psychonauts to get rid of the mouse keyboard controls that way)
You also open a can of worms with games like that for people with older machines, which funnily are often adventure gamers. In my experience adventure gamers machinewise often are the most conservative people.
Mouse & Keyboard can work for third-person games in same cases, e.g. Max Payne. Agreed that it normally lends itself more naturally to a gamepad, though.
A mouse is way better accelerated and more precise and dealt with especially in an analog way than any console controller i have used so far, simply due to how it's done technically. And there is quite some room for improvement if you would like to enhance it both from utilising the hardware's abilities as well as what you could tweak/add on the logic side.
This is only true to 2d centric movements, WSAD in shooters with a mouse works only so well because you control sort of 2 dimensions with a mouse and a third with the keyboard.
For third person perspectives with free floating cameras gamepads are superior to any mouse driven interface, I have been there and for those kind of games I usually revert to a dual analog stick gamepad.
Problem is that games like Dreamfall or Wallace and Grommit are somewhat corner cases, you dont have a free floating camera and they although 3d are somewhat 2dish, so I am not sure if point and click works out too well or not too well. All I can say is that most games trying that perspective opted for keyboard/gamepad controls (Dreamfall, first alone in the dark etc...)
Funny thing is Gabriel Knight 3 as far as I can remember used a mixed approach, either wsad mouse, or mouse only with right mouse button and directional arrows, that one worked also more or less well.
But GK3 had a free floating camera in many areas!
Mouse & Keyboard can work for third-person games in same cases, e.g. Max Payne. Agreed that it normally lends itself more naturally to a gamepad, though.
The problems with a mouse keyboard combination begin to start as soo as you have a free floating camera, you dont have a second analog input needed for good camera control. All I can say is give it a try, play Tomb Raider as example with mouse keyboard and then run it through a dual analog stick gamepad, you can see that the controls in the keyboard mouse combination are awkward at best.
As for mouse only, as I stated before the mouse itself lends itself naturally to 2d movement only, but there are ways to work around that for non action games. The game having it done best so far as posted before is Gabriel Knight 3, probably the prime example on how to do a mouse only interface in a pure 3d environment!
Have you guys did some serious research in what you could do with a mouse steering?
Yes. The trick is finding one that feels right and really feels like you're moving the character around naturally. You may see something come of that, maybe not. But we've tried and are continuing to try lots of stuff.
That's ... a really interesting point! Now that I think about it, just about all of the Sam & Max environments look and feel very much like interactive dioramas. (Whoa, wait -- SAM & MAX 205 SPOILER AHOY! -- [ spoiler removed ] A huge stretch, but still ... !)
It's not a huge stretch: that was one of the ideas behind using the dioramas. It's a gag about how all the environments are like stage sets without 4th walls. (Maybe not a particularly funny gag, but that was the idea, anyway).
And just so it's clear: all the stuff I'm saying about controls is in regards to Telltale in general, not necessarily anything specific to Monkey Island. The guys working on MI may be able to give you the details later on, but as you can imagine they're all pretty busy right now!
I havent played WG so i guess i will be testing this right on july.
But it seems like you got a 50% of in-game actions working with mouse, and a 50% of in-game actions working with keyboard; we are given a half of each, and the result doesnt make a whole.
In a very (but very) pragmatic way: If in the past i used only one hand to do all the actions and now i have to use both hands to do the same actions, i dont know how that improves things.
Maybe it does in ways i havent seen yet, cause like i said, i will test it on july.
If you have some mouse solution you're not entirely happy with and won't include it in the games because of that... why not put it in anyway, as an unsupported feature you can only enable by manually editing some config file or something like that?
Well, as a follower of the MI series, I am hoping for the classic Sam and Max controls. But as a general PC adventure gamer altogether, I wouldn't mind the WG control scheme, since I never had any problems with it.
The classic scheme is better, of course, but the WG controls aren't hellish as well.
Looking back I feel MI3 was the best for controls, it didn't have all the "push, pull, take, punch, make cup of tea" options of the previous games that get really tedious if you're stuck and you have to try each one on every object. Yet it still allowed full control from the mouse, with a bit of choice on what to do with objects, i.e. you could use an object with another in your inventory which has so far been absent in Telltale games that I've played.
I really dislike with a passion the last Monkey Island game's controls and feel it was dumbed down like this so it could be ported to consoles. Wallace and Grommit's controls aren't too bad as you can still do lots with the mouse, but sometimes the direction characters go when you walk is counter-intuitive and it would be so much better if you could also click to walk/run with the mouse too. How hard could it be to add that in? it's there in Sam and Max after all.
Hi all. Usually I dont do web forums but for a new Monkey Island game I´ll make an exception
After jumping and dancing through my office celebrating the rebirth of the possibly greatest adventure series of all time my euphoria has turned into worries remembering the horrible piece of crap Monkey Island 4 was.
Adventure games are meant to be played using the mouse and I can not imagine any control scheme involving the use of a keyboard or even worse gamepad which comes close to the comfort of point and click mouse controls. I do not know which market is more important but its just not fair that PC-gamers will no longer receive the best possible gameplay on their systems because you want to squeeze out some extra bucks on the console market without investing the resources to implement two user interfaces which would certainly be the way to go to make as many people happy as possible.
Even with the new sucky controls I´ll still buy MI5 (because it´s still Monkey Island) but I guess I will play it like I did the last one. Finish it as fast as I can with a walkthrough and sell it afterwards cause I know for sure I wont touch it again.
I hope this change in quality is more like an accident and not what to expect from TTG in the future. Fortunately lots of adventure games are being released again (and most have traditional point and click controls) so I could afford missing out on whatever comes after MI5, even though it would not be very satisfying as I really like what you did with Sam & Max.
Do not put your good reputation at stake and say yes to point & click
I just played the W&G demo, the controls aren't that bad at all. It's seriously not that much harder, you guys. You just have to use buttons to move and open the inventory. I don't see anything hard about that.
The problems with a mouse keyboard combination begin to start as soo as you have a free floating camera, you dont have a second analog input needed for good camera control. All I can say is give it a try, play Tomb Raider as example with mouse keyboard and then run it through a dual analog stick gamepad, you can see that the controls in the keyboard mouse combination are awkward at best.
As mentioned, I know third-person games are normally best suited to a gamepad/controller (for the reasons you mention). I was just saying that a few (Max Payne in the example) do work well with a mouse/keyboard combo, generally because they play more like first-person shooters.
I just played the W&G demo, the controls aren't that bad at all. It's seriously not that much harder, you guys. You just have to use buttons to move and open the inventory. I don't see anything hard about that.
I'm not saying that it's particularly hard, or a deal-breaker (though it is for some people). I'm just saying that it seems like a step in the wrong direction. It may not be that much harder, but it's generally more cumbersome, and why complicate things unnecessarily?
I don't understand how having to use a keyboard is such a horrrible thing that it'd spoil the whole game. I prefer point and click, but it's just a preference. If I have to use a combination, and it's not incredibly frustrating to play, I'm not complaining. And the Wallace & Gromit controls did not make the game frustrating to play. The only problem I had was that sometimes I couldn't find hotspots with the mouse. Other than that, it was just different. That's all.
I prefer point and click, but it's just a preference.
The thing is, I haven't really heard from anyone who prefers the alternative, aside from those already using gamepads/console controllers.
As I've said, I'll buy the game either way, but I'm curious as to the reason for the change. Point-and-click was good enough for Telltale before, and it seemed to be good enough for everyone else too, at least before the Xbox port. If the change is only for the benefit of those using gamepads, I don't see that retaining optional mouse-only support should be so difficult to arrange for the PC (and Wii?) version.
Edit: If the camera needs to be rotated or something, maybe that could be mapped to the keyboard or, alternately, handled by touching the screen edges or holding middle mouse?
The thing is, I haven't really heard from anyone who prefers the alternative, aside from those already using gamepads/console controllers.
As I've said, I'll buy the game either way, but I'm curious as to the reason for the change. Point-and-click was good enough for Telltale before, and it seemed to be good enough for everyone else too. If the change is only for the benefit of those using gamepads, I don't see that retaining optional mouse-only support should be so difficult to arrange for the PC (and Wii?) version.
Actually the mouse keyboard combo is more or less standard wsad + pointer for picking up and doing things, it is far from the broken controls of grim fandango and monkey 4!
It is however somewhat subpar to a mouse only interface if you want to use the mouse! Especially since you are used to double clicking a hotspot and having the character going towards it, now you must be near the hotspot, sort of in reach to be able to do that!
Best thing is simply to download the W&G demo and give it 15 minutes to get used to it to find out if you can live with the controls or not.
If I had not a gamepad I probably would not like it either, but since the gamepad for me gives me more comfort (due to being able to play it on the sofa in the living room) i don´t mind it, and I never felt that the controls were as broken as in MI4 and Grim Fandango!
I don't understand how having to use a keyboard is such a horrrible thing that it'd spoil the whole game. I prefer point and click, but it's just a preference. If I have to use a combination, and it's not incredibly frustrating to play, I'm not complaining. And the Wallace & Gromit controls did not make the game frustrating to play. The only problem I had was that sometimes I couldn't find hotspots with the mouse. Other than that, it was just different. That's all.
Why should we torture ourselves playing with sucky keyboard controls when there is a better option ?
Adventure games have always been point & click and just because of some extra sales on the console market they are now gamepad or keyboard-mouse combination ?
All this talk about innovative controls and trying to create better controls is nonsense and indeed is PR-talk by Telltale. Its all about getting the game done faster and therefore its all about money.
Maybe they should sell an addon which enables mouse support.
Imagine the possibilities after all those PC-gamers paid for acceptable game controls...
Bah. This kind of killed my good mood. There is going to be a new Monkey Island game and it will suck. Great
PS : A new Monkey Island is announced and the hottest topic on those forums is a discussion about how the game controls are gonna suck. I think that shows that TTG is about to do a mistake and should at least consider implementing additional mouse control to make everybody happy.
We've said repeatedly we want our games to play well on as many platforms as we can handle [..]
If the feedback is "just go back to point and click," then no, you're not going to get the answer you're looking for. It doesn't work well on consoles[..]
I understand that it is in your (Telltale's) interest to cover as many platforms as possible with the lowest possible extra effort. - But please also understand that it is in my (your customer's) interest to get the best possible control scheme for the platform I buy the game for. - And for an adventure game on a PC there is nothing better than the "point & click" mouse control as implemented for "Sam & Max" (for example).
The number of postings in this thread (over 100 in less than 2 days!) is the best proof you can get that this is a very important topic for many people. And though I have noticed that I have been subconsciously humming/whistling the Monkey Eiland themes since yesterday, I will certainly not pre-order the game before I had the chance to play the demo first.
Comments
It looks like they're planning for the future, when Tales will (eventually) debut on the other consoles as well.
But I've been a fan of adventure games for a long time. While there's been some things that are hard to swallow, I've started to accept that adventure games can't just be the voiceless point to walk masterpieces they were. While I'm sure there's plenty of us who'd play something like that, I can't imagine many who'd pay the money for it. Plus how are you ever going to attract new people into the genre if you're just using the same old interface? Take for an example, Mario. Would he have lasted if all he did was jump? He eventually developed into a lot more than that with each iteration as the technology got better and better.
I'm not a big fan of the keyboard either (for games in general) but I imagine Telltale heard your complaints and are taking them into consideration when they design new control schemes. I'm sure they'd love to hear how they could make the configuration BETTER, but going back to what was used for years and years just because it worked back then isn't an option for them.
And really, you don't have to buy the game or any other telltale thing that comes out. You'd be a fool, but that would be your own choice. Staying here to argue about what else Telltale has done wrong makes it seem like you're whining more than you're giving feedback that they'll actually listen to (which just hurts all of us)
My suggestion, wait for the demo. You don't know how the control scheme is going to be until the game is out anyway.
The script I wrote to add mouse movement to W&G is the only way W&G was playable for me.
As I state in a W&G discussion... W&G keyboard controls blow the whole game for me. There is no way that is more immersive. Using the joystick is much better, but then you have the issue of selecting the items you want to use. Using controls to toggle between selectable items totally blows the theory of the controls being more immersive. TTG needs to do a better job of having the players head indicate what item is nearby. At least Grim Fandango did a good job of that.
So again I say, at least add edge of the screen movement controls. I would also like to see my hold mouse button down and move the mouse to move in that direction added, but that is just me. Best would be to add real point and click, but that will never happen any more it seems, so at least add a compromise for everyone here that believes you are wrong in your new control scheme.
Most likely I will have to update my script to support all the new TT games. So I will probably miss out on the pre-order special jacket. Unless I see a demo of how bad the controls are, I will not order.
Not to mention, I want to know if MI is even more rushed and buggy then W&G.
Monkey Island however used the mouse in the majority of the games (except the last one and everyone hated it because of that) and was never exactly "cinematic"... what is the argument about using keyboard instead of the mouse this time?
Unfortunately I just feel you guys stumbled on a rock and started rolling down hill.
Loved the news about you guys making Monkey Island (never expected it), but now you guys strike a low blow with the keyboard scheme again?.
I just feel very frustrated again right now thank you very much.
What is the problem with the feedback you've been getting? It's neither unrealistic nor vague to say that Sam&Max' control scheme was pretty good, and W&G was a huge step backward. What else do you need to know? You know what you did in Sam&Max worked very well, and you implemented it before, so where's the problem? Do you expect us to invent something completely new? Why?
(And yes, here's your obligatory "I won't buy this either, after skipping W&G because of the controls too".)
Maybe so, but to me that sounds fairly silly. The only valid reason to change something is if the change is an improvement. If it turns out that it's not, there's nothing wrong with admitting a mistake and going back.
While I accepted the decision in Wallace and Gromit's case, it was because it fit the license, and not because it evolved the genre. If anything, direct control here feels like a regression.
Gee, please calm down it is just a game. Besides that to my personal experience the control scheme is fine as soon as you omit the mouse and play with a gamepad. I played Wallace and Grommit that way, having my notebook computer in the living room sitting in the couch, and playing with the pad. I had more comfort than with a mouse only sitting in front of my work computer playing it :-)
All I can say who dont like the new control scheme, try do use it with a gamepad it is almost an eye opener how good it works.
But besides that, I have not seen too many things in W&C outside of having to support the XBOX which would not work with a mouse only interface.
My personal guess is in the long run it would be wise to add it as a third option. I personally however would hate to go back to mouse only being used now to the gamepad, but I am probably the minority here!
Welcome to the forums Luffy!
I disagree on that the new steering in W&G is a benefit.
I'm faster and it's more intuitive going with a steering like in Sam&Max than it is going with a steering like it's implemented in W&G and i tried both, playing it with a mouse/keyboard combination as well as playing it solely with a Xbox360 controller.
The consoles are once again watering the gaming experience for the computers if you're giving up mouse point&click, if the new control works like in W&G.
Btw, because it got noted before just as a note, i think it's completely valid for a customer not to purchase a product as in the end this is the only way he can show a company if he is fine with a certain direction/decision a company is taking or if he's not.
At 1 month before release, I don't think any serious changes are possible.
That can't be very hard to implement, even just one month prior to release.
I wouldn't say I'd hate going back to mouse only, but once you play with an Xbox Controller, Wiimote+Nunchuck, or gamepad, you really realize how much nicer it is. On Monkey I walk Guybrush around using my keyboard, and while I'd rather have a gamepad, its never a problem for me. I still laugh out loud, I can navigate places perfectly fine, and the environments still look as awesome... Each control method has its problems. I can't tell you how many times I've watched Sam walk all the way across an environment after my girlfriend accidentally clicked on a wall in Sam and Max. She can control Wallace on XBLA with ease though. Sure she might walk herself into a corner once in a while, but dude... haha come on. its a video game. i don't see what the big deal is. we're all in this together. we all wanna make/play a fun thing. I'm sorry if some people don't like the direct control stuff. But its currently something we're trying out and have been getting a positive reaction from people playing with a joypad. I've heard there are people playing with other control ideas for pc, but I can't confirm that.
I just hope people can at least give the first episode a shot. You'd be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't. Its got some fun puzzles, funny dialog, and its Monkey...
Peace and love hommies!
Oh yeah what was up with that anyway
But new Super Mario Bros did not use the mouse, sorry I could not resist.
My personal guess to the mouse problem is:
Pathfinding probably is way harder with the current angle system so it is probably out of the way and it is rather easy to do it with a gamepad because there is none!
Many 3d games bypass the problem by adding movement via directional arrows tiggered by the right mouse button. Which means you trigger the right mousbutton and move the mouse slightly into the direction you want your character to go, a directional angle shows up and the character moves that way.
Gamepads in my opinion are for pure 3d movement preferrable, a due to the fact that with one analog stick you control your character with the second you can control the camera angle, but that assumes you have a free floating camera.
I agree that a manual control scheme is probably a vast improvement if you need to use an Xbox-style controller but, if a mouse is available, clicking things is not exactly difficult. Or pointing at things on the Wii, wall glitch aside.
Edit: I was responding to the earlier comment: "Plus how are you ever going to attract new people into the genre if you're just using the same old interface? Take for an example, Mario. Would he have lasted if all he did was jump?".
My point was simply that you don't always need to change the control scheme to make a popular game. Super Mario Bros. 2 received criticism for changing things too much*, and returned to a more traditional control scheme for Super Mario Bros. 3, one of the best-selling games of all time. New Super Mario was released decades later with Super Mario 1-style controls and was still successful.
Obviously the control scheme was not the major factor in the success of these games, and in fact I like Mario 2. Just saying that something being 'new' doesn't make it a good idea, and something being tried & true doesn't make it bad
The one big advantage the mouse also has is that it' simply available on almost every
computersystem and people are used to it as well.
A joypad controller has the advantages that it offers more input possibilities on a small combined space and that it allows you also more multiple input than a mouse does but i doubt that this is really needed for an adventure.
Have you guys did some serious research in what you could do with a mouse steering?
The problem is with the part I bolded, though. Unless, say, Telltale's inbox is flooded with thousands upon thousands of emails decrying the new control scheme for MI, there's no way they're going to change it. Making their new games "console friendly" while still doing what they can to make the controls intuitive for PCs seems to be Telltale's goal from here on out. So simply "going back" isn't an option. At all.
What is constructive at this point, though, are suggestions for improving the current W&G/future MI controls. Basically:
... instead of just reiterating "Bring back point-and-click!" ad nauseum. I'm speaking as someone who prefers point-and-click too -- compared with the current W&G keyboard controls, that is. The room for improvement exists. That's what we should zero in on, in a way that stands to help Telltale improve the new controls until they've become as intuitive* as humanly possible.
That's ... a really interesting point! Now that I think about it, just about all of the Sam & Max environments look and feel very much like interactive dioramas. (Whoa, wait -- SAM & MAX 205 SPOILER AHOY! --
One last point: Several people have mentioned how the direct controls are somewhat justified in W&G due to its cinematic nature, while the same can't be said for MI. The Monkey Island games may have never offered a super-cinematic experience, true. But with these particular controls -- or at least something close to them -- being used here, why not now? I have no idea if that's what Telltale's planning to do in this case. But if so, I can't help but think of the added sense of cinema as a boon.
--
* Which isn't to say that the W&G controls lack any intuitiveness. In fact, I tend to think they're quite intuitive -- just significantly less so than point-and-click. So long as you're not playing W&G one-handed on a number pad, point-and-click will always have that edge over any two-handed keyboard/mouse configuration. But playing two-handed doesn't have to be the Kiss of Death either, IMO.
The Secret of Monkey Island was released on Sega's Mega-CD (Sega CD in the US) system that attached to the Sega Megadrive 16-bit (Sega Genesis in the US) system. It also supported the Sega Mega-mouse input device sold separately (a two button mouse) but could be played with the joypad too. Both ways worked flawlessly. I don't like IF the controls are sacrificed on the console altar but gonna play it anyway.
Hopefully this is not another decision based on consoles...seen them more than enough already.
Edit:
I have to edit my post to bring some other opinions to this too.
Even if the controls weren't mouse-driven, I'm totally gonna support TTG for giving new MI games...this is just something unbelievable that I didn't think would happen ever. This is unbeliavable news. The price of the game is nothing..already pre-ordered.
And also feedback: moving the character with the keyboard would be bad, because:
- clicking anywhere with the mouse you want is far more easier and fast
- turning on the keyboard was slow and annoying in Grim Fandango and MI4
- you can easily get stuck or don't find the best route with the kb, with mouse you could just point to a place and your character would go there or not.
Yes, King's Quest games/etc. have always been direct-control, but that was also always quite awkward, and point-and-click controls were invented to specifically improve upon that.
I agree here too, full 3d ala psychonauts or tomb raider would be neat, but that would mean to force people into a gamepad, because face it games like tomb raider or psychonauts do not scale well into mouse keyboard combinations because of the floating camera problem!
(Believe me I have been through that in games many times and have settled for a gamepad for exactly those games, I even remapped Psychonauts to get rid of the mouse keyboard controls that way)
You also open a can of worms with games like that for people with older machines, which funnily are often adventure gamers. In my experience adventure gamers machinewise often are the most conservative people.
Could you tell us if you support more joypads this time around?
Implementing a character-relative movement could be nice, too.
This is only true to 2d centric movements, WSAD in shooters with a mouse works only so well because you control sort of 2 dimensions with a mouse and a third with the keyboard.
For third person perspectives with free floating cameras gamepads are superior to any mouse driven interface, I have been there and for those kind of games I usually revert to a dual analog stick gamepad.
Problem is that games like Dreamfall or Wallace and Grommit are somewhat corner cases, you dont have a free floating camera and they although 3d are somewhat 2dish, so I am not sure if point and click works out too well or not too well. All I can say is that most games trying that perspective opted for keyboard/gamepad controls (Dreamfall, first alone in the dark etc...)
Funny thing is Gabriel Knight 3 as far as I can remember used a mixed approach, either wsad mouse, or mouse only with right mouse button and directional arrows, that one worked also more or less well.
But GK3 had a free floating camera in many areas!
The problems with a mouse keyboard combination begin to start as soo as you have a free floating camera, you dont have a second analog input needed for good camera control. All I can say is give it a try, play Tomb Raider as example with mouse keyboard and then run it through a dual analog stick gamepad, you can see that the controls in the keyboard mouse combination are awkward at best.
As for mouse only, as I stated before the mouse itself lends itself naturally to 2d movement only, but there are ways to work around that for non action games. The game having it done best so far as posted before is Gabriel Knight 3, probably the prime example on how to do a mouse only interface in a pure 3d environment!
It's not a huge stretch: that was one of the ideas behind using the dioramas. It's a gag about how all the environments are like stage sets without 4th walls. (Maybe not a particularly funny gag, but that was the idea, anyway).
And just so it's clear: all the stuff I'm saying about controls is in regards to Telltale in general, not necessarily anything specific to Monkey Island. The guys working on MI may be able to give you the details later on, but as you can imagine they're all pretty busy right now!
But it seems like you got a 50% of in-game actions working with mouse, and a 50% of in-game actions working with keyboard; we are given a half of each, and the result doesnt make a whole.
In a very (but very) pragmatic way: If in the past i used only one hand to do all the actions and now i have to use both hands to do the same actions, i dont know how that improves things.
Maybe it does in ways i havent seen yet, cause like i said, i will test it on july.
If you have some mouse solution you're not entirely happy with and won't include it in the games because of that... why not put it in anyway, as an unsupported feature you can only enable by manually editing some config file or something like that?
It would be better than nothing.
The classic scheme is better, of course, but the WG controls aren't hellish as well.
I really dislike with a passion the last Monkey Island game's controls and feel it was dumbed down like this so it could be ported to consoles. Wallace and Grommit's controls aren't too bad as you can still do lots with the mouse, but sometimes the direction characters go when you walk is counter-intuitive and it would be so much better if you could also click to walk/run with the mouse too. How hard could it be to add that in? it's there in Sam and Max after all.
After jumping and dancing through my office celebrating the rebirth of the possibly greatest adventure series of all time my euphoria has turned into worries remembering the horrible piece of crap Monkey Island 4 was.
Adventure games are meant to be played using the mouse and I can not imagine any control scheme involving the use of a keyboard or even worse gamepad which comes close to the comfort of point and click mouse controls. I do not know which market is more important but its just not fair that PC-gamers will no longer receive the best possible gameplay on their systems because you want to squeeze out some extra bucks on the console market without investing the resources to implement two user interfaces which would certainly be the way to go to make as many people happy as possible.
Even with the new sucky controls I´ll still buy MI5 (because it´s still Monkey Island) but I guess I will play it like I did the last one. Finish it as fast as I can with a walkthrough and sell it afterwards cause I know for sure I wont touch it again.
I hope this change in quality is more like an accident and not what to expect from TTG in the future. Fortunately lots of adventure games are being released again (and most have traditional point and click controls) so I could afford missing out on whatever comes after MI5, even though it would not be very satisfying as I really like what you did with Sam & Max.
Do not put your good reputation at stake and say yes to point & click
I'm not saying that it's particularly hard, or a deal-breaker (though it is for some people). I'm just saying that it seems like a step in the wrong direction. It may not be that much harder, but it's generally more cumbersome, and why complicate things unnecessarily?
As I've said, I'll buy the game either way, but I'm curious as to the reason for the change. Point-and-click was good enough for Telltale before, and it seemed to be good enough for everyone else too, at least before the Xbox port. If the change is only for the benefit of those using gamepads, I don't see that retaining optional mouse-only support should be so difficult to arrange for the PC (and Wii?) version.
Edit: If the camera needs to be rotated or something, maybe that could be mapped to the keyboard or, alternately, handled by touching the screen edges or holding middle mouse?
Actually the mouse keyboard combo is more or less standard wsad + pointer for picking up and doing things, it is far from the broken controls of grim fandango and monkey 4!
It is however somewhat subpar to a mouse only interface if you want to use the mouse! Especially since you are used to double clicking a hotspot and having the character going towards it, now you must be near the hotspot, sort of in reach to be able to do that!
Best thing is simply to download the W&G demo and give it 15 minutes to get used to it to find out if you can live with the controls or not.
If I had not a gamepad I probably would not like it either, but since the gamepad for me gives me more comfort (due to being able to play it on the sofa in the living room) i don´t mind it, and I never felt that the controls were as broken as in MI4 and Grim Fandango!
Why should we torture ourselves playing with sucky keyboard controls when there is a better option ?
Adventure games have always been point & click and just because of some extra sales on the console market they are now gamepad or keyboard-mouse combination ?
All this talk about innovative controls and trying to create better controls is nonsense and indeed is PR-talk by Telltale. Its all about getting the game done faster and therefore its all about money.
Maybe they should sell an addon which enables mouse support.
Imagine the possibilities after all those PC-gamers paid for acceptable game controls...
Bah. This kind of killed my good mood. There is going to be a new Monkey Island game and it will suck. Great
PS : A new Monkey Island is announced and the hottest topic on those forums is a discussion about how the game controls are gonna suck. I think that shows that TTG is about to do a mistake and should at least consider implementing additional mouse control to make everybody happy.
The number of postings in this thread (over 100 in less than 2 days!) is the best proof you can get that this is a very important topic for many people. And though I have noticed that I have been subconsciously humming/whistling the Monkey Eiland themes since yesterday, I will certainly not pre-order the game before I had the chance to play the demo first.